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Thread: Low End Radiators for just 40 Bucks from Feser ?! Yes ! :)

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fragger View Post
    Martin can you explain to me why this is.
    Sure,

    It's due to one specific thing. The air's ability to store heat is very poor, it's referred to as the "specific heat value". Better yet if you want to compare volume, the "Volumetric Heat Capacity" is an even better comparison.

    Basically the air can only store a certain amount of heat until it's pretty well used up.

    Water has a fantastic specific heat value, but air is very poor. That's why air is actually considered a good insulator rather than a conductor.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_heat_capacity

    Volumetric Specific Heat Value
    Comparison of the ability to store heat per unit of volume:

    Air = 0.001297 J cm−3 K−1
    Water = 4.186 J cm−3 K−1

    So, water per unit of volume, can store over 3000X more heat than air of the same volume

    This is also part of why flow rate is "Everything" when it comes to heat exchangers/radiators, but flow rate is relatively insignificant when it comes to our loops and blocks. Specific heat isn't the only important thing though, thermal conductivity is equally important, but in terms of looking at using up a substance to exchange heat, specific heat value is the criteria to look at. When water passes through a block the temperature rise is many times only .1C, but in a radiator it can be 10 or even 20 degrees or more and the volume of air moving through the radiator is many many times larger than the volume of water moving through the loop. If you have fans moving 20CFM of air through a triple radiator, that's 60CFM which equals 450 Gallons per minute. The water loop is moving maybe 1.5GPM, so the volume of air going through the radiator is 450/1.5 or about 25X more.

    It's too bad you don't live next to a spring fed river. You could put an 80mm radiator in the river and cool many systems strung together. Water is awesome, air sucks or does it "Blow"..?..

    You can see that in the Air out temperature of the radiator testing. If the air out temperature was equal to the water out temperature, you would have used up 100% of the air's ability to store heat. You can never get 100%, but the difference between slim and double thickness when using slow speed fans is pretty small.

    Take a close look at the percentages of the air out vs. water out of the MCR320:



    At 600 and 1000RPM, the % is around 67-68%. That means the air's ability to cool is already used up about 67-68% at that flow rate. But notice as the air speeds increase, the % reduces down into the 54% range at the ultra high speed fans.

    Now take a look at my TFC480 chart.

    At 1000RPM, the % is up to about 86% at the low end and 70% at the high end.


    So the double thickness does help, but you can only do so much with that remaining capacity left in the air. The first thickness is doing a much higher percentage of cooling and the air is about 60-70% used up by the time it reaches the second layer, so the second layer is only cooling maybe 70% of 30% that's left.

    There are gains to be had, but not nearly as much heat exchange that occurs at that first layer that comes into contact with cool fresh air. This is why the frontal area is so key to performance. Add 30% more frontal area and you'll likely gain nearly that 30% in full. That's not the case with thickness because air has a very poor specific heat value, and that become more and more of an issue the slower the air moves.

    In addition, you have fans that have a very poor ability in overcoming restriction and you're left with a system that's very sensitive to fan power and density of the exchanger. A simple thing like changing the FPI count by 2FPI is enough to make a measurable change in the radiators optimization.
    Last edited by Martinm210; 05-15-2009 at 07:17 PM.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by eth0s View Post
    @ Martin: You are a like a voice of reason in the wilderness! I have long believed that thinner radiators are better (for both high and low speed fans), but I thought I was the only one. IMHO, the best radiator would be thin and wide, like 25mm thick and 3x3 140mm fans wide (i.e., 9 fans total). This however would be impractical to place in any standard case as it would look like a big cookie-sheet-type-radiator, and would have to be mounted in the side of the case, or be placed outside the case, in its own enclosure.
    I wouldn't say thinner is "Better", just that extra thickness doesn't provide nearly as much gain as more frontal area. There are gains to be had with more thickness, just not a 1:1 gain like frontal area pretty much is.

    This is also why I very much look forward to more 140mm radiator options. Not so much for the fans themselves, but for the extra frontal area..
    Last edited by Martinm210; 05-15-2009 at 07:40 PM.

  3. #53
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    There's also one other thing important (IMO) to note...a bit of an extension/simplification of what Martin is saying.

    At the very basic level, you can only put so much heat into the air. In other words, the volume of air you move through your rad can only take so much heat. When you compare its temperature to the water temperature, you can calculate air saturation. You want air saturation to be as high as possible.

    You also want as much airflow as possible--more air moving through the rad = more heat removed from the loop. And this is where radiator design gets difficult: the most effective way to saturate the air is to increase surface area, which also increases restriction and therefore decreases airflow. So it's a balancing act of airflow restriction and airflow saturation.

    The easiest ways to increase surface area are to increase fin density or to increase depth and each changes the restriction differently. Radiator manufacturers probably have enough test/production data to optimize their rads for a specific fan power these days, but the trick is to have superior performance across a range of fans

  4. #54
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    im also a vote for thinner radiators..reason why i went with the mcr320 over the comp at the time..the others were too thick and didnt provide enough extra performance for the price

  5. #55
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    why not just forget about moving down the line 120mm -> 140mm and go straight to 200mm? 200mm fans can still fit on the top /bottom of most tower cases

    i dont think 200mm fans can be squeezed into the optical drive bays tho so the 140mm rads may be the best that we've got right now for those..

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    Quote Originally Posted by kinghong1970 View Post
    really?

    that's a major violation...

    if it is assembled in xyz
    finished in a different country, it should clearly state so...

    iirc the fines are HEFTY per violation...

    garments used to be made in russia/china/vietnam and gets imported under Korean country of origin... the companies that do get busted... gets blacklisted by customs and going to pretty much go through hell to import again...
    This is overly simplified. An example I can relate to since I am a watchmaker is this: In order for a watch or watch movement to say "Swiss Made" at least 50% of the cost associated to manufacturing the watch must have come while in Switzerland. You could have a watch in which 1/2 the components are actually manufactured in china, sent back to Switzerland for assembly, polishing, regulating and by the time you are done if you have accounted for 50% of the value you can then deem it "Swiss Made". While tricky, there are similar rules for many different industries.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by eth0s View Post
    @ Bundymania: It sounds like you are saying that Feser did not like the reviews it was getting on German websites, and suppressed those reviews. Is that what you are saying? I personally like Feser products, and I have Feser 360 rad right now, and I know it is doing a better job than the MCR 320 that it replaced. I also love Feser colored tubing, and I think I am the only person on Earth who likes the new Triebwerk fans, so I have nothing against the company, but I have suspected for a while that they are not willing to have independent reviews of their products go head to head with other top performers.
    No, Feser and the other Manufactors had absolutly no problem with the results in the Review. They still support me with test samples, all good so far.

  8. #58
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    They will be reviews when they come out, by Bundy and myself, TFC are stingy and won't give skinnee samples, i have tried and tried but no luck , TFC like who they like and hate who they hate.

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    Thanks Martin and Vapor, very interesting. The more i learn, the more i find there is to know
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  10. #60
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    No wonder they're $40, the product quality looks awful.

    You get what you pay for I suppose.

    If it ain't watercooled, I don't wanna know.

  11. #61
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    Sorry for more ot, but i was planning to put a trip and dual rad in the bottom of my tj07 with one fan between them, all fans blowing in same direction.

    Would i benefit from using xspc rads over swiftech ones?

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  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth_Penguin View Post
    This is overly simplified. An example I can relate to since I am a watchmaker is this: In order for a watch or watch movement to say "Swiss Made" at least 50% of the cost associated to manufacturing the watch must have come while in Switzerland. You could have a watch in which 1/2 the components are actually manufactured in china, sent back to Switzerland for assembly, polishing, regulating and by the time you are done if you have accounted for 50% of the value you can then deem it "Swiss Made". While tricky, there are similar rules for many different industries.
    i'm sure various countries have varying standards...

    i'm in the apparel business and have been designing and importing garments for the past 20 years...
    i've produced from Korea, Indonesia, China, Vietnam, HK (which is really china), India, Italy and Romania... and exported to Japan, Korea, UK, Italy and France in my short career...

    to mislabel in your care/content label for product imported in USA is a serious violation and last i recall, they apply hefty charges per violation (per item).

    i understand where you are coming from, % of manufacturing being a majority can be labeled as so... but see, this system is faulty in that it's deceiving... we're paying for "swiss made" where only 49.999% can be china made.

    there is a similar application where the typical high school letterman varsity jacket... it's composed of leather at the sleeves and minor contrast, and wool/nylon blend at body... and basically, wool import duty and quota is very pricey... so some import methods have been to bring it in as leather goods claiming that the value of over 50%.

    but composition and c/o is a different matter.

    it used to be the case where if a specific item is over 50% assembly can be labeled as originating from that country... but now you have to label that it is assembled in xyz, parts made in abc...

    furthermore, in a radiator, how much of the production, do you think, is done in EU? as a fellow businessman, would it make sense to actually produce the parts and have them shipped over to EU to be assembled? or just send over un-finished parts and send over for painting?

    mind you, suburbs of major cities in china, factory operators, not technicians or line chiefs, gets paid about 100-150 USD per month...

    btw, i'm not speculating whether the company is making their product and deceiving the consumer...

    FYI: next time you buy made in Italy or France of Germany goods, take a real close look at how the content label and c/o is sewn in the garment.
    there are cases where the fabric is really sheer or very fragile and so it is hand stitched... but if you find a cotton jersey tee that has label sewn on top of the seam (post production) instead of sewn inside the seam (during production), be very cautious...

    now i'm still in the fashion industry but i buy rtw clothes... some showrooms tell me that it's made in italy...

    that's why i wear this shirt in fashion week...


    sorry for the long reply...
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  13. #63
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    NO offense, but dose anyone have any evidence to show they are made in china?

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by bentleya View Post
    NO offense, but dose anyone have any evidence to show they are made in china?
    I have heard from a reliable source who was once close to feser - I really cant say who so please don't discredit me for not naming

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by bentleya View Post
    NO offense, but dose anyone have any evidence to show they are made in china?
    Quote Originally Posted by kinghong1970 View Post
    btw, i'm not speculating whether the company is making their product and deceiving the consumer...


    thank you...
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  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by kinghong1970 View Post
    i'm sure various countries have varying standards...

    i'm in the apparel business and have been designing and importing garments for the past 20 years...
    i've produced from Korea, Indonesia, China, Vietnam, HK (which is really china), India, Italy and Romania... and exported to Japan, Korea, UK, Italy and France in my short career...

    to mislabel in your care/content label for product imported in USA is a serious violation and last i recall, they apply hefty charges per violation (per item).

    i understand where you are coming from, % of manufacturing being a majority can be labeled as so... but see, this system is faulty in that it's deceiving... we're paying for "swiss made" where only 49.999% can be china made.

    there is a similar application where the typical high school letterman varsity jacket... it's composed of leather at the sleeves and minor contrast, and wool/nylon blend at body... and basically, wool import duty and quota is very pricey... so some import methods have been to bring it in as leather goods claiming that the value of over 50%.

    but composition and c/o is a different matter.

    it used to be the case where if a specific item is over 50% assembly can be labeled as originating from that country... but now you have to label that it is assembled in xyz, parts made in abc...

    furthermore, in a radiator, how much of the production, do you think, is done in EU? as a fellow businessman, would it make sense to actually produce the parts and have them shipped over to EU to be assembled? or just send over un-finished parts and send over for painting?

    mind you, suburbs of major cities in china, factory operators, not technicians or line chiefs, gets paid about 100-150 USD per month...

    btw, i'm not speculating whether the company is making their product and deceiving the consumer...

    FYI: next time you buy made in Italy or France of Germany goods, take a real close look at how the content label and c/o is sewn in the garment.
    there are cases where the fabric is really sheer or very fragile and so it is hand stitched... but if you find a cotton jersey tee that has label sewn on top of the seam (post production) instead of sewn inside the seam (during production), be very cautious...

    now i'm still in the fashion industry but i buy rtw clothes... some showrooms tell me that it's made in italy...

    that's why i wear this shirt in fashion week...

    sorry for the long reply...
    Interesting (I have no real knowledge of the apparel industry)

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by SNiiPE_DoGG View Post
    I have heard from a reliable source who was once close to feser - I really cant say who so please don't discredit me for not naming
    I take that as a no then. For all we do that could be BS, as you don't know anything more about the new thermochill range than the guys at WCUK forum.

    You can PM me his name, if you want, cos i don't think it's far to BS about a company just cos you don't like them, i have been told from day one, and i keep asking them each time the subject comes up and they say they are made in germany end of from my end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bentleya View Post
    i keep asking them each time the subject comes up and they say they are made in Germany end of from my end.
    Same here.

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    take it as you will, I dont have a way to "prove" to you what I know to be true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SNiiPE_DoGG View Post
    take it as you will, I dont have a way to "prove" to you what I know to be true.
    If I remember correctly, it was entertained back in 2008 but yield no befits.

  21. #71
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    now now boys... let's not go off and get all heated up on a speculation...

    if one has "insider" information.. fine... but it's all speculation unless proven so...

    we all know that what we read on these forums, we should take it with a grain of salt...
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  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by SNiiPE_DoGG View Post
    take it as you will, I dont have a way to "prove" to you what I know to be true.
    You don't need to justify what you heard or expose names, you are just repeating information that you heard from a "reliable" source. Misinformation after being repeated enough gets validated as truth over time.

    Does not mean that it is true and I would not put much confidence innit unless the "reliable source" is willing to come forward with the facts. Until then I would refer to it as hearsay... aka gossip. JMHO
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  23. #73
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    either way a radiator is a radiator correct even if made in china feser has standards to keep to inspect them to make sure they are ok and dont leak im assuming.

  24. #74
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    Are there any higher resolution pictures up close you might have?

    That's usually where quality seems to lack on some of the budget radiators.
    This is my MCR220, the fins seem to be a bit irregular in spacing and shape. I don't think it really makes much of any difference in performance, but something I've noticed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bentleya View Post
    NO offense, but dose anyone have any evidence to show they are made in china?
    If anyone who will fly to China...I will show you where it came form.

    Products made in China just tell customers the truth..don't always tell lie to customers.

    It's the basic responsibility for your product and your brand.

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