Why no one should be shocked by The Pirate Bay verdict

[Kingcarcas]

Throw the pirates in jail!! Throw the RIAA and everyone else in jail!! Everyone in jail!

[MrToad]

Throw the pirates in jail!! Throw the RIAA and everyone else in jail!! Everyone in jail!

Judge Death logic?

[RaZz!]

some news: http://thepiratebay.org/blog/151

[defect9]

You also don't Photo Copy that book and either sell or share it with millions of others. Again, the music industry didn't care about tape and or personal recordings. What did piss them off was the reproduction and unauthorised sales of said material. Yes, if TPB is using others' content to get you to view ads they're paid to run, then they'd selling other folks' works=P

Then... why are there photocopiers in my library?

I'm only pointing it out to be humorous. Nothing I (or anyone else) posts in this thread is gonna sway people who aren't looking for a different point of view.

[Warboy]

some news: http://thepiratebay.org/blog/151

TPB FTW.

[Kampfzerstorer]

I'm not sure its entirely clear that pirating causes as much real damage as the MAFIAA likes to say. Here is some anecdotal evidence:

I have a friend. We'll call him uh... John. John recently downloaded and watched Han. So these corporations say "HEY! Thats lost profit!". Well I can assure them that John would not have paid any money to watch that movie under any circumstances. In fact, I would even go so far to say that had the MAFIAA showed up with a gun held up to John's head asking for payment to see that movie, John would have helped them pull the trigger himself.

Conversely, a long while ago John downloaded and played Company of Heroes. He did not initially purchase it because he heard some things about it that lead him to think he wouldn't like it. It turns out John really liked Company of Heroes, so he purchased it! Had he not had to opportunity to play it for free, he would have never purchased it! So in this case it created profit.

Edit: Lovely! They autoformatted a legitimate movie name to bananas for me!

[MrToad]

Edit: Lovely! They autoformatted a legitimate movie name to bananas for me!

You can always say Hanpenis

[Bo_Fox]

Same here.. pirated Chronicles of Riddick (original game) and liked it, then bought it and played it again. This is just one example of many games (Far Cry, Max Payne, Prince of Persia games, DiRT, Doom3, Half Life 2, and so on...) that I pirated first and then bought afterwards (as long as they were not riddled with Securom DRM crap).

[Bo_Fox]

By the way, was the previous thread on the founders of TPB being sentenced and fined actually deleted from XS forums?!?

[defect9]

it got ate when the server went down (again) and we lost that week's worth of posts

[Zaskar]

I'm not sure its entirely clear that pirating causes as much real damage as the MAFIAA likes to say.

Id be willing to bet that artists would get more money even with people downloading like they do if the RIAA was taken out of the picture. (maybe not the same artists, would be interesting to see what happens when people aren't pushed to the top by a group with the funds that they have)

[STEvil]

Previously people had provided reasons for pirating games: bad quality, too expensive, crappy DRM, nasty big corps. Well, this game has NONE of that and it's pirated without mercy. It's all excuses. Excuses to get free stuff.

And all of your posts are excuses to make the flawed market look good.

Its a lose lose situation, so keep posting but i'm gonna look into chopping off hands as a measure of rules enforcement.

[gojirasan]

I just downloaded a 700meg version of a movie from a Korean director that I already know I like. I am about to watch it. I just paid $27 to buy an official NTSC region 1 copy from amazon of a different movie from this writer/director. I had watched a copy of that DVD from one that my friend had copied from a Netflix release. My rip was lost eventually due to a hard drive crash. My friend no longer has his copy either. The director seems to have a very distinct style and yet I do NOT like all of his movies. And his movies tend to be expensive here: Often reaching nearly $30. Even though it was normal for laserdiscs and I might not mind paying that much for a well transferred bluray. I am ABSOLUTELY NOT going to go out and blindly buy such an expensive DVD that I haven't seen before. I just wont.

That's the way the record industries used to be. Trying to sucker their customers into buying their records in the hope that the rest of the album would be like the snappy hits they heard on the radio. OR hoping that a band's newest album will be liked because the people making it are the same. Well i grew tired of that. Tired of getting ripped off for music that I didn't like just because there was no other viable choice. No better system around. Using that system I maybe bought 10 albums in my first 30 years of life. There was no try before you buy and that's exactly the way the recording industries wanted it. After napster everything changed. Suddenly even relatively obscure bands had pages on amazon where you could listen to snippets of the tracks from their album. Only the first 30 seconds, but that was like a revolution for me. I was more inclined to start buying CDs. But for longer tracks the first 20 or 30 seconds was often not long enough to get you out of the intro. So I downloaded the songs that I liked and listened to them first. There is not a single instance in my life where I didn't go over to the local records store and buy the CD when I liked it. Is everyone like me? No. But neither am I alone in using piracy-as-demo. I'm sure there are millions like me. There are certain bands that I love and am grateful to. I would donate what little money I had to them at the drop of a hat. I know that one particular group was having some financial problems. Both artists had day jobs. So I suggested that they put up a donate cup so that people could express their love and gratitude for their music to them. Unfortunately I was the only one who donated anything significant ($50). Which is what the artist herself had skeptically predicted. I haven't been to her site recently. I wonder if it is still there. That deeply saddened me. These were truly talented people. Even geniuses, and are a household name at least for my generation. And yet they are relatively poor. They sold a lot of CDs though for their label when they were big. They had a label (not sure if it's an RIAA member). They considered selling directly from their website and they did some of that. Selling all their music track by track in FLAC or APE format (to get true "cd quality") was my suggestion. They ended up doing that to an extent. The main problem is the whole damn mess of a system in the first place where the middleman basically merely represents the music, almost like a lawyer.


I am far from rich and can barely afford to make the purchases I do but feel it is necessary since the production companies are heartless and have no quams of not making anymore batches of movies that sell slowly over the years. After all, they think, they are not warehouses to store obscure movies. So eventually they become IMPOSSIBLE to find ever again. Again, does the movie industry care about 'movies as art'? Do they care that a priceless work of art is not being reproduced any more and is impossible for anyone to buy at any price? No. They don't care in the slightest about that. They are not the kind of people that ever would. All they care about is the commerical value of the copyright. Their precious copyright... Full fsck their copyright. That questionable little piece of US law. Not everyone believes in that religion. If he want to decide fairly on this debate of copyright theory you should at least hear both sides. But only one side is usually allowed. Even this thread is mostly one sided and will no doubt be deleted as off topic and due to the hot tempers on both sides

There is no easy answer to any of this, but their are good arguments on both sides. Although there are some who clearly are not being honest or are just being simpleminded when they declare that their way of looking at things is the only way. And anyone who doesn't share is view is a bad person in whatever moral system he is subconsciously using to make the judgement. It is important to split the legal issues from the moral issues. The arguments for each are quite different.

[dan7777]

i havnt bought a movie in years whats the point when you watch it once twice then its left on the shelf so i download all movies in mins on private sites and watch um then delete um off job done. same with games most.....

[Speederlander]

And all of your posts are excuses to make the flawed market look good.

Its a lose lose situation, so keep posting but i'm gonna look into chopping off hands as a measure of rules enforcement.

Fact is, you provided perfect examples of games with every reason not pirate and support the game developer. They meet all the criteria of good games. And yet they get reamed like all the rest. Why? Because it's easier to get them for free. You can't compete with free.

So yeah, the flawed market is "bad", capitalism is evil. Blah blah blah.

Note dan here,

i havnt bought a movie in years whats the point when you watch it once twice then its left on the shelf so i download all movies in mins on private sites and watch um then delete um off job done. same with games most.....

Sounds a lot like those people on pirate bay doesn't it?

It's easy. It's free. And he deserves it. He's entitled to free stuff.

[STEvil]

Fact is, you provided perfect examples of games with every reason not pirate and support the game developer. They meet all the criteria of good games. And yet they get reamed like all the rest. Why? Because it's easier to get them for free. You can't compete with free.

So yeah, the flawed market is "bad", capitalism is evil. Blah blah blah.

Note dan here,

Sounds a lot like those people on pirate bay doesn't it?

It's easy. It's free. And he deserves it. He's entitled to free stuff.

You think fl0w was pirated in excess? I think you better check your numbers.
You think World of Goo didnt make money hand over fist? Tell that to Valve's press release.

[Speederlander]

You think fl0w was pirated in excess? I think you better check your numbers.
You think World of Goo didnt make money hand over fist? Tell that to Valve's press release.

I was discussing Goo in my previous posts. If I went plural in my last response it was simply not looking back. Anyway...

Goo made money, therefore people should feel better about acquiring their stuff without paying? Because they perhaps are entitled to have it? For free, yes? A little slice of forced socialism, except those participating just plunder. Really, it's nothing more than a sense of entitlement and laziness. I won't even label it theft at this point, as that's too kind. It's easy, it's free. As we see here, many of the people spend more time creating excuses for their chosen activity than they do probably doing it.

"Music sound quality is bad so I am justified to take it"
"Music artists are all corporate and suck therefore I am justified to take it"
"The Music industry is evil therefore I am justified to take it"
"RIAA is evil therefore I am justified to take it"
"Movies are too expensive therefore I am justified to take it"
"Popcorn at the theater is too expensive and salty therefore I am justified to take it"
"They are rich corporations therefore I am justified to take it"
"They need to come up with new distribution models therefore I am justified to take it"
"Knowledge should be free therefore I am justified to take it"
"Software is too expensive therefore I am justified to take it"
"Software should be on Steam therefore I am justified to take it"
"I don't have a credit card to pay therefore I am justified to take it"
"I'm poor therefore I am justified to take it"
"Software quality sucks therefore I am justified to take it"
"DRM is evil therefore I am justified to take it"
"Games are repetitive and boring and buggy therefore I am justified to take it"
"I woke up feeling like I deserved a new toy therefore I am justified to take it"
"I am entitled to be entertained therefore I am justified to take it"

On and on, we've heard them all. Lame excuses that just cover up the one real reason that covers 99.9% of the downloaders: They want free stuff.

[Ghostwind]

Why don't the majors go back to selling vinyl? I would actually buy that and I'm not kidding at all. Bickering aside, this is really a sad issue for me as a long time supporter and collector of music who pretty much quit music when physical record shops started shutting down. I used to spend about twelve hours a week in record stores.

The vinyl model for music is dying in all but a few niches and rightfully so.

There are multiple problems with the vinyl model to music that make it irrelevant for today's level of technological development in the world.

For the last 20 years vinyl was kept alive through the house-techno-electronica sub genre scene.

Today almost every DJ from the biggest paid in Europe to bedroom djs in Chile use and prefer CD mixers or programs (Serrato being the current best).

First vinyl is bulky, heavy and very annoying to lug around when you have a hundred records, let alone if a DJ wanted to bring records for an eight-hour set. CD and .wav mixers have reached a level where they are far more precise than vinyl turntables and storage capacity is such that a dj could bring 10,000 tracks whereas back in 1990 only a few crates worth was physically viable.

Beyond that, digital music makes it much easier to for music producers both new and long time to produce without all the old obstacles to production.

On an environmental level, vinyl is petroleum based product. That simply isn't efficient or cheap for today's world and especially won't be in a few more years.

Existing vinyl certainly has its niche but its more towards the older funk/soul/R+B era for collectors of hard to find prints.

[STEvil]

I was discussing Goo in my previous posts. If I went plural in my last response it was simply not looking back. Anyway...

Goo made money, therefore people should feel better about acquiring their stuff without paying? Because they perhaps are entitled to have it? For free, yes? A little slice of forced socialism, except those participating just plunder. Really, it's nothing more than a sense of entitlement and laziness. I won't even label it theft at this point, as that's too kind. It's easy, it's free. As we see here, many of the people spend more time creating excuses for their chosen activity than they do probably doing it.

"Music sound quality is bad so I am justified to take it"
"Music artists are all corporate and suck therefore I am justified to take it"
"The Music industry is evil therefore I am justified to take it"
"RIAA is evil therefore I am justified to take it"
"Movies are too expensive therefore I am justified to take it"
"Popcorn at the theater is too expensive and salty therefore I am justified to take it"
"They are rich corporations therefore I am justified to take it"
"They need to come up with new distribution models therefore I am justified to take it"
"Knowledge should be free therefore I am justified to take it"
"Software is too expensive therefore I am justified to take it"
"Software should be on Steam therefore I am justified to take it"
"I don't have a credit card to pay therefore I am justified to take it"
"I'm poor therefore I am justified to take it"
"Software quality sucks therefore I am justified to take it"
"DRM is evil therefore I am justified to take it"
"Games are repetitive and boring and buggy therefore I am justified to take it"
"I woke up feeling like I deserved a new toy therefore I am justified to take it"
"I am entitled to be entertained therefore I am justified to take it"

On and on, we've heard them all. Lame excuses that just cover up the one real reason that covers 99.9% of the downloaders: They want free stuff.

Dont believe I suggested that anywhere.

Anyways I guess you've got all of your questions answered. Oh wait, you've only told us what we are.

[seanx]

I think that pirate bay was "hit" becoz it was too popular, there are still plenty other
sites/software which have been around way longer than Pbay , simply becoz fewer ppl know of them.
I aggree with a lot Speederlander says , as we know ppl like free stuff, the thing is
very little is availiable to the "common" person, only the "techies" and the like have
more access to more free stuff coz we kow where to get it. And that I feel is wot
the "suits" will struggle to prevent.
Bottom line then I guess is they can prevent the majority (who lets face it, will pay for stuff)
and can't really prevent the minority (techies - who hardly pay for stuff they can get free).
just my 5c lol.

[Speederlander]

Dont believe I suggested that anywhere.

Then why bring up the money they made from the game?

Anyways I guess you've got all of your questions answered. Oh wait, you've only told us what we are.

Whatever satisfies you. As long as you get what you want. I wouldn't want anyone to come between you and what you feel you are owed.

[STEvil]

Then why bring up the money they made from the game?

Because you keep crying to us about how we're all thieves and because of us nobody makes money, especially those who strike out on their own. Oops I guess I provided a couple examples to the contrary.

Whatever satisfies you. As long as you get what you want. I wouldn't want anyone to come between you and what you feel you are owed.

I'd rather not bend over.

[Speederlander]

Because you keep crying to us about how we're all thieves and because of us nobody makes money, especially those who strike out on their own.

Where have I ever said no one makes any money? Please be specific. Feel free to review my entire bleepin' posting history. Find the quote where I say no one makes any money and post it up.

Oops I guess I provided a couple examples to the contrary.

Contrary to what? That made up comment you invented or some other odd interpretation of my positions?

I'd rather not bend over.

No, some folks would rather have some guy or gal work hard to create a product and then appropriate the fruits of his/her labor without compensation.

[DeltZ]

The question is, how much more would the music (and other) industries suck for us if they had their way. How much bull would we have to endure.
Question is if the piracy by torrents died out because the dated industry won, what would we do instead.

All good and well camping on their lawns and not moving. But it's rather more effective at the moment, millions sitting at home in their chairs hurting the machine with a mouse click. *shrugs*

[Logos]

difficult position here Speeder, to think right, and you think right, in a thread where the majority is all for piracy, piracy is legit hey guys ?

I went through a thread like this one about a year ago here @ XS, I won't bother this time.

As to the pirate bay guys, I won't either waste any time as to elaborate about the verdict, it's useless to talk with those who think "they should get it for free"...and all those capitalists are bastards, right ? My take ? one year in jail is nothing, just nothing compared to what they deserve. Also, if TPB was based in some other European countries, they would have been shut down long ago.

ps: Speeder, I find it rather great that you launched this thread, and spend time to respond to the various attacks, again and again, arguing very precisely about the details etc...

edit: not very good news here:
http://translate.google.com/translat...hl=eN&ie=UTF-8

edit: the herds applause when Madoff is jailed, why don't they in the pirate bay case ...I tell you why, because when robbery becomes wide spread, it sounds legit