Why no one should be shocked by The Pirate Bay verdict

[god_43]

(damn crash deleted all of my posts and setting, time to start over) eh you know, torrents only recently became popular because the masses finally became aware of them, and learned how to use them. there are some real pirates out their (no I am not talking about Somali pirates), these people download the content and then sell it...... that is wrong in my opinion! Those people are the real pirates, and they should be prosecuted.the riaa and others have to adapt to the new digital age, the old distribution methods simply will not work now.

[mrcape]

How about software? How about books? How about games? How about movies? Everyone acts like the only thing anyone downloads is music because RIAA is easy to complain about.

Well, that's an interesting point. I am directly concerned with the music piece and could care less about the others, that's why I speak about the RIAA. This goes back as a far as the early 90s when consciously boycotting RIAA affiliated artists as a disc jockey was the thing to do. The majors always sucked anyhow.

I am a big fan of open source software and I think it's the future. I think licensing and reselling models will take a big shift as applications and games move to cloud servers. That should give them some of the control they want, but I doubt they will compete with open source apps. Either way I'd rather see corporate companies adapt to the market than to see blanket policing and nasty court cases using single moms and children to make examples.

[defect9]

He said:

No, the people who paid their taxes so the library could be built paid for it. The people who pay their taxes so the books can be purchased paid for it. Those books were PAID FOR. The people with the rights were duly and justly compensated for the benefit of that community.

lol, you tell him. I think his point is that the artist won't get any more money, no matter how many people read/check out the book from the library. Plus, many libraries take books on donation (obviously, they do buy some books, I realize this). But like I mentioned, it's only worth a read. Don't discount it just because you can dispute one point (otherwise I'd discount everyone because nobody who is capable of posting even a remotely coherent thought, obviously not even me, has gone their entire lives without making a mistake in what they say ). it's the conversation as a whole (as in, the thread from that point on, not just those two posts) that are the real mind openers as to multiple points of view

[Speederlander]

(damn crash deleted all of my posts and setting, time to start over) eh you know, torrents only recently became popular because the masses finally became aware of them, and learned how to use them. there are some real pirates out their (no I am not talking about Somali pirates), these people download the content and then sell it...... that is wrong in my opinion! Those people are the real pirates, and they should be prosecuted.the riaa and others have to adapt to the new digital age, the old distribution methods simply will not work now.

Model 1: Free and Instant
Model 2: Everything Else

You can't compete with Model 1. You can roll with the flow and give away everything and beg for donations, but it won't result in the kind of quality people have come to expect, most especially in software titles and movies.

[Zaskar]

Do you believe that people should not have the right to receive compensation for their work in a fair market?

Thats a little questionable.

Its hard to claim fair market when most movies and "artists" are grouped under very large companies/labels (and then grouped again under the MPAA RIAA)

It essentially takes the entire competition/fair market part out of the equation. When you have that much power to drive advertising/marketing/movie and TV song placement and radio placement its all but impossible for anyone to compete without joining up. (Didn't Intel get in trouble for paying OEM's to use their CPU's in the form of price breaks a while back?)

With the amount of scrutiny put on Microsoft and Intel, I have no idea how there hasn't been any heat on this. Would be like Intel and AMD working together to fix prices.

Even Microsoft knows not to sue your user base, as it makes people hate them, and when people think your evil, even good people don't really care about you. Its just not smart.

Music could be handed out for free and used as advertising for their name, and artists would get their money from concerts/Movie/TV and add revenue if there was no leaches sucking out most the money. And as long as their making over 80-100k a year they cant complain.

Most games are headed in a atleast partly hosted online format (or one that requires access to their server database which requires a login) so their future isnt really in danger either.

Lets not also forget how this situation is crippiling the growth of technology. because of the lockdown on Movies and Music were not at a fully Digitially distributed meda system yet like we should be, and it seems their fighting against it for as long as they can.

Why not release DRM free stuff, if you release a CD your releasing a DRM free song, it just takes someone to rip it, and that's the version that will be distributed, selling DRM free songs/games isn't going to increase the amount of people sharing, the people obtaining them are your paying customers. I wont even trust any Music CD in my windows box nowadays due to the BS many like to install on first access (yeah you can turn autorun off). And I don't know about the rest of you, but id gladly pay under a buck for a song that is of max lossless quality and DRM free, saves me the time of ripping it myself. And for others who don't rip themselves, it should be worth it to never have to compromise your systems by essentially lowering your security to that of every other persons system who you obtain your files from. (seriously guys, are you insane. Do you even know how many viruses can embed themselvs into audio/video files? Nothing is truly for free)

The entire situation is absurd, those companies need to go, and if some others loose some money along the path for that to happen so be it. The alternative is this situation will go on forever which is unacceptable.

[Speederlander]

Well, that's an interesting point. I am directly concerned with the music piece and could care less about the others, that's why I speak about the RIAA. This goes back as a far as the early 90s when consciously boycotting RIAA affiliated artists as a disc jockey was the thing to do. The majors always sucked anyhow.

I am a big fan of open source software and I think it's the future. I think licensing and reselling models will take a big shift as applications and games move to cloud servers. That should give them some of the control they want, but I doubt they will compete with open source apps. Either way I'd rather see corporate companies adapt to the market than to see blanket policing and nasty court cases using single moms and children to make examples.

Linux is as open source as they come. It's also had the single biggest push from the most people of anything in the open source world in creating a product everyone could use (mostly out of antipathy toward microsoft). And yet, it's still not ready for people who aren't generally computer savvy. Yeah, anyone can surf the net in Ubuntu, but as soon as a problem crops up, god help you. I'm sure Linux people will beg to differ, but it's true. My parents barely get around in Windows, they would be completely flummoxed in Linux. And that's not saying Linux is bad or doesn't have its place, but it does comment on the viability and competitiveness of open source software. Even after all these years the biggest open source project of them all is used mostly by geeks, techies, specialists and in net books for people too improverished to get windows.

Now, scale down to a single game company. How do they get started? They have no guaranteed income (other than begging for donations). Do game companies just go away? What do we think the quality of "open source" games will be? Does that get us AAA titles? People are motivated primarily and most importantly by compensation. Sure, there are some few people who are "in it for the masses" (and usually they get paid well anyway), but the fundamental truth is people work hard and want to get paid for their hard work. Take away the pay, and the talented people will go find an industry where they WILL get paid.

[Tonucci]

What can they do about piracy ?

Create quantum computers that generates unencriptable data or something ?!?

[mrcape]

Linux is as open source as they come. It's also had the single biggest push from the most people of anything in the open source world in creating a product everyone could use (mostly out of antipathy toward microsoft). And yet, it's still not ready for people who aren't generally computer savvy. Yeah, anyone can surf the net in Ubuntu, but as soon as a problem crops up, god help you. I'm sure Linux people will beg to differ, but it's true. My parents barely get around in Windows, they would be completely flummoxed in Linux. And that's not saying Linux is bad or doesn't have its place, but it does comment on the viability and competitiveness of open source software. Even after all these years the biggest open source project of them all is used mostly by geeks, techies, specialists and in net books for people to improverished to get windows.

Now, scale down to a single game company. How do they get started? They have no guaranteed income (other than begging for donations). Do game companies just go away? What do we think the quality of "open source" games will be? Does that get us AAA titles? People are motivated primarily and most importantly by compensation. Sure, there are some few people who are "in it for the masses" (and usually they get paid well anyway), but the fundamental truth is people work hard and want to get paid for their hard work. Take away the pay, and the talented people will go find an industry where they WILL get paid.

Like I said in my last post, you have a point about the other media types, but I still think they need to adapt their model from the top down. I don't know what that should be, maybe cloud, but it should certainly include top compensation for the developers.

[STEvil]

Now, scale down to a single game company. How do they get started? They have no guaranteed income (other than begging for donations). Do game companies just go away? What do we think the quality of "open source" games will be? Does that get us AAA titles? People are motivated primarily and most importantly by compensation. Sure, there are some few people who are "in it for the masses" (and usually they get paid well anyway), but the fundamental truth is people work hard and want to get paid for their hard work. Take away the pay, and the talented people will go find an industry where they WILL get paid.

2DBoy, Jenovachen.. either of those ring a bell?

Make a good product and you'll be known. Piss in a pot and call it soup and we'll call you John Romero.

[Speederlander]

2DBoy, Jenovachen.. either of those ring a bell?

Make a good product and you'll be known. Piss in a pot and call it soup and we'll call you John Romero.

You have to pay for World of Goo. It's $20. It's not donations. Further, World of Goo isn't open source, as was being discussed.

Hmmm... friendly indie developer with reasonable prices and what is considered to be a good game....let's see if people are pirating their games on pirate bay...Surprise, surprise they are....who'd-a-thunk it?

Let's look at some of the comments on the Bay:

I don't really think anyone should download this game. I mean we should be supporting a game thats completely anti-DRM and also anti copy protect. Its not like its really expensive either.

Doesn't seem to deter many people...note the response...

...im not gonna pay fro a game when the piratebay is here to save the day, thank you koben!

Pirate Bay to the rescue. What else is said?

Easyest to download! no hassle or anything. Great stuff, thanks alot

Sweet, glad it was easy for him!

I am not buying the game because I don't have a credit card

Wow, that's rough.

Downloaded and installed, am now playing. Works PERFECTLY! AMAZING TORRENT!

Another satisfied customer!

Here's an interesting title for one of the World of Goo torrents!

World of Goo No Crack or Steam

Sweet, no Steam. Glad that evil service has been cast aside.

Here, the same guy above (krogoth151) posted his comment again in another torrent:

I don't really think anyone should download this game. I mean we should be supporting a game thats completely anti-DRM and also anti copy protect. Its not like its really expensive either.

To which a guy replied:

krogoth151: In principle I agree. Too bad most pirates are hypocrites.

How true!!

Here's another interesting comment:

Why would you pirate an indie game?

And the response:

Why wouldn't you pirate an indie game? I don't see you asking the same question under other Indie games being torrented. Oh wait, you are the developer or his fanboy.

Guess, what, you are just making most of us spread the pirated version even further. Retard.

Wow, and there you have it. The root philosophy of the whole thing. Free stuff and he wants its. End of discussion.

[STEvil]

The point was that what is good will make you what you deserve. You missed it.

Good for that last guy, i'm glad you believe he validates your entirety in the discussion...

[mrcape]

Dude talk about selective, there's no ending this discussion that way. To be continued... forever.

I think someone said this is an impossible discussion and I'm going to have to agree.

[STEvil]

Dude talk about selective, there's no ending this discussion that way. To be continued... forever.

I think someone said this is an impossible discussion and I'm going to have to agree.

At least he didnt try bending the discussion into a topic that shouldnt even be on these forums like last time...

[Clint]

Just ignore. Make use of the function given to us, saves a lot of agony when trying to have a relevant discussion. Some people just aint capable to keep it relevant...

[Hoboclese]

well all i know is that they don't lose a sale when i pirate something. I pretty much don't buy anything unless i actually want it, on the other hand i use pirating as more of a trial eg ill download a copy and if i like it go watch/buy the product later on but if i don't like it then no harm done

edit

having actually read rather than skimmed the rest of the thread now i believe i should add a little more, expanding on what i said before i don't really buy much at all and that isn't something that started as soon as i got cable internet it has always been the case. Also i can see both sides of the argument and do believe piracy is not the way to go and am actually making a firm decision to buy ALL my games/movies even though i loathe the draconian methods of anti piracy.

[Speederlander]

The point was that what is good will make you what you deserve. You missed it.

Good for that last guy, i'm glad you believe he validates your entirety in the discussion...

Previously people had provided reasons for pirating games: bad quality, too expensive, crappy DRM, nasty big corps. Well, this game has NONE of that and it's pirated without mercy. It's all excuses. Excuses to get free stuff.

[Speederlander]

Just ignore. Make use of the function given to us, saves a lot of agony when trying to have a relevant discussion. Some people just aint capable to keep it relevant...

You had previously agreed that downloading IP is a crime and should be punished.

I have multiple times stated that I DO NOT think downloading/sharing IP is ok, I have on the contrary said that it's a seriuos crime and should be dealt with accordingly.

Has that opinion changed? I assume you agree with the PB verdict?

[Speederlander]

Dude talk about selective, there's no ending this discussion that way. To be continued... forever.

I think someone said this is an impossible discussion and I'm going to have to agree.

Selective how? I could post up all the comments from every torrent for that game, you think it's going to change the jist of that set of comments? It's a bunch of pirates either asking for help because their warez didn't work, warning about a virus, arguing with someone over why they should pirate the game, giving a reason why they can't afford the game, or the occassional person posting the reasons why not to pirate the game only to get ridiculed. Heck, I could copy paste every comment from 10 randomly selected torrents. It wouldn't change a thing regarding the picture presented.

[Zaskar]

Previously people had provided reasons for pirating games: bad quality, too expensive, crappy DRM, nasty big corps. Well, this game has NONE of that and it's pirated without mercy. It's all excuses. Excuses to get free stuff.

If you have ever played an online game you would know that there is no shortage of fools like that. and threads like that are usually magnets for people like that, its not a very good gauge.

But seriously, there has to be different methods to stop it, like better steam integration, or other distribution platforms. Games are getting more and more tied to online servers for atleast some of its components nowadays and having to create login accounts (not necessarily subscriptions).

Distribution models need to change and it will greatly reduce the amount of income from these products/services, but at the same time it will also eliminate the need for those middlemen who suck out most the money anyhow.

Right now technology progression in this field is being stunted, and that is really the only thing that matters, their not adapting because the only path that works doesn't include them.
Like I said, we should of been on 100% Digital based distribution (official distribution) a long time ago.

You cant hold back the progression of technology for any companies benefit, it doesn't work like that, you adapt or you go out of business/your field evaporates.

There will always be people to do things when a vacuum in that area opens, if the RIAA goes, and most the big artists stop making music due to much less income, they will be replaced almost overnight by people who will, you wont even notice it and no one will care.

[Donnie27]

A guy on another forum (a music-creation forum, amazingly) made some great points talking about modern perceptions (well, more cultural perceptions), and also followed it up with some points likening music to art and books. You don't pay for a book you read in a library, and an artist doesnt get paid for every person that looks at their painting.
interesting thread, if I do say. Not saying to take it as gospel, but worth a read, IMO

You also don't Photo Copy that book and either sell or share it with millions of others. Again, the music industry didn't care about tape and or personal recordings. What did piss them off was the reproduction and unauthorised sales of said material. Yes, if TPB is using others' content to get you to view ads they're paid to run, then they'd selling other folks' works=P

It's why 97% of Online reviewers spend time for reviews. To draw you there to read them while you view ads that others paid them to show. Let's get this straight, so I can start a site or sites, take fugger's or anandtech review, reproduce completely, place my name on it and all is OK, right? If I make money off their work is that's OK?

True. However, Morocco is a small North African country, and South America is an entire sub-continent (no, not everything south of Texas is Mexico surprise!!!)[*]

Can't compete really
[*] Mainly for those who think of Africa as a country, and apply the same rule elsewhere

Africa / South America as country's

Maui-wowi or Lebanon Black Oh and that's before the Opium is added to turn it into hashes!

Music could be handed out for free and used as advertising for their name, and artists would get their money from concerts/Movie/TV and add revenue if there was no leaches sucking out most the money. And as long as their making over 80-100k a year they cant complain.

What happens when bootleggers copy the tickets for that concert/s? Or like what's being downloaded now. Mini Camcorder or Handi Cams can record of a whole concert, then TPB spreads it to millions. I say again, I saw Notorious two months before the DVD shipped. So folks are saying these guys don't have a right to sell Discs and expect to be paid!?

Red State, who me? Must have not seen me Defending Pres. Obama LOL! No secret ballot here, damned right I voted for him as well LOL!

Some large Corporations are good citizens, others aren't. When you broad brush them all into one pile, it is silly to say the least. My last donation was to "Feed The Children" others are Fallen Firefighters, UNCF, State Sheriffs, Boy Scouts, United Way and a few others. Fixed two computers at the shelter and repaired a few for the recreation center for the kids there. A bunch of folks here need to put up are shut the hell up!

I'm sorry I think that if some one wants to be paid to perform, they should be. Be it acting, singing, hell, even having sex (no kiddie stuff) LOL and or even cleaning floors & toilets! Again Big Evil Record Companies employ Janitors and a lot of blue collar labor as well, are they evil too!?

[WangChung]

Depends on how Big Content is considering their IP. If they're considering it as the CONTENT itself, once I've paid them for that content I should be able to watch it however I see fit. Current DCMA laws technically "prohibit" me from streaming my own DVD across my own network. Untill Universal/MGM/Sony start paying my rent, eff that. I also feel that if I've paid for the content of my DVD and I happen to lose/break it, since they're claiming domain over the content which I paid for and not the delivery/storage system used, I am merely taking steps to recover the property which I paid for by the cheapest means necessary. Breakage of that DVD does not entitle me to lose my right to watch that content.

Yeah, I know, bunch of double speak and smoke and mirrors in what I said, but shifting the perspective on behalf of the "protagonist" is exactly what the production companies are doing. Just playing their game by their rules.

[soundood]

what has been missed among all of this, is the fact that we have in our lifetimes witnessed one of the greatest technological achievements for hundreds of years.

we have 'ridden' its hidden horses and enjoyed its pleasures, but we also had the pleasure of seeing it in its infancy, during this period it has now 'grown up' with the arrival of 'web 2.0' and the coming of web 3.0, more and more of it is being regulated and commercialised.

although deeply saddened by the whole piratebay affiar, this is nothing new, as the supernova and napster sights has shown us.

but we were there to see it all !!!, this is now i believe truly at an end, all the sites we visit, all the emails we send now legaly archived in case of 'terror attacks'.

the day of the open and ilegal internet is over, weve had our run and now it is time to accept it for what it is.

as time goes on this type of behaviour will be driven more and more underground, until the point were it is totaly taboo, and just not worth the risk.

i fear that time is near, ..............

[Clint]

You had previously agreed that downloading IP is a crime and should be punished.

Has that opinion changed? I assume you agree with the PB verdict?

My opinion in that matter is as before, downloading IP is and should be punishable. And downloading IP != stealing with a proper interpretation of the law.

The PB verdict is a politically forced verdict with so much holes in it and obvious lack of knowledge of the technology that it makes me sick. It upsets me as much as the latest argument we had about bending and using the law for commercial interests.

I'm ashamed of beeing a Swede as of now, but it will not hold in the next instance ("Hovrätt"). "Tingsrätten", as the first legal instance is called, is nothing but a playground and now (obviously) is easy bought as well (or politically controlled).

So no, I do not agree with the verdict.

(don't bother reply, I consider this a general reply to any person that read your post to me, no more replys will be given)

[Donnie27]

Depends on how Big Content is considering their IP. If they're considering it as the CONTENT itself, once I've paid them for that content I should be able to watch it however I see fit. Current DCMA laws technically "prohibit" me from streaming my own DVD across my own network.

First, that's what's wrong here. You didn't pay for the Content. You paid to use it, view it or etc.. Yes you should be able to personally USE IT as you see fit for your OWN consumption. Thank Pirates for them trying (in vain) to protect their content. It's what first made me hate the thieves who steal content. I use to be able to leave my front door unlocked, now I can't go without a home alarm

Untill Universal/MGM/Sony start paying my rent, eff that. I also feel that if I've paid for the content of my DVD and I happen to lose/break it, since they're claiming domain over the content which I paid for and not the delivery/storage system used, I am merely taking steps to recover the property which I paid for by the cheapest means necessary. Breakage of that DVD does not entitle me to lose my right to watch that content.

They shouldn't pay you for anything you break, be it a light bulb, a piece a furniture, and hell anything else you might break. Dewd that's TOTALLY un realistic. Yes, you can BUY warranties and insurance Oh wait, I don't have insurance, wreck my car so Honda, GM or Ford should replace it, yea, right.

Yeah, I know, bunch of double speak and smoke and mirrors in what I said, but shifting the perspective on behalf of the "protagonist" is exactly what the production companies are doing. Just playing their game by their rules.

Prodution companies are the artists themselves in a lot of cases.

And Reznor adds that musicians should be exploring other ways to sell their own music, rather than relying on labels: "As an artist, you are now the ...

It would still be stolen and millions of accomplices joining in on the thievery LOL!

For moral issues.

http://faithvisuals.com/help/legal.html

This is "par for the course".

Can I make copies of the media?

Yes, but there are some limitations. You may only copy content: a) so that it can be incorporated into a worship service or presentation being given at no charge; and b) for back up or archiving. If you require multiple copies of the same content for use in more than one location at the same time, you'll need to purchase additional copies of content as needed in order to obtain legal license for each additional copy. Read full End User License Agreement here.

They (VF) have a right to sell to more than one Church IF that other Church wants that software. Not put it up on a site/s to share with millions of others to avoid paying it it.

Just to be clear here. I want my licensed content to be easily transferable throughout my home. I DON'T think these folks are worried about what I do with Content I licensed and been buying it since I was about 8 years old. I have a HTPC and have digitized the best hits from about 600 LP-Albums and about 400 hundred cassettes. Even in the process of getting music from about 13 six hour 10" Reel to Reels. I hate it when these folks try to protect their content from thieves and then hinder the honest folks who buy it.

The answer isn't for them to give up, the answer is for thieves to stop stealing LOL! (We know that ain't goin' to happen) Yes, did I mention it was stealing and or theft by receiving?

[Cuthalu]

Too bad you missed all the other parts talking about the moral and ethical responsibilities.

Going back to topic, even though I think the Pirate Bay and it's users were a part of something illegal (and immoral)...

When summing things up, piracy causes with a vast difference more good than negative things. On some individual level it might be bad, but in the big picture, it's good. Of course people must buy good products to keep talented developers and artists doing the work and getting money, but after that it's all good.