Informal test results CPU 350 vs Apogee GTZ

[santiagodraco]

So you are saying they should change all the test until your favorite comes out on top?

Not at all. I'd like to know beyond a doubt which one is best under which conditions. That is what people here don't seem to grasp.

Under the single set of conditions set by Gabe the GTZ performed better by 1.5c.

How might the two blocks perform if the pump flow rate was increased by 50% on the same exact setup? The fact that those tests were not performed, and especially knowing that one block is designed in a specific fashion as to require high pump flow, I call bs on this test as meaningful overall.

Submit the same tests under varying flow rates and I'll say good job and thanks for the unbiased test results.

[santiagodraco]

I think what most of us miss will be his unbiased testing. There are very few "straightshooters" on these boards when it comes to testing. Quite frankly, I won't trust anyone other than Nikhsub1, Petra, Martin (in that order), when it comes to testing. Too many people have their own "preferences" on these boards when it comes towards testing. It may not be apparent, but by reading their posts, you can notice the bias.

It's not easy to do these tests. I appreciate anyone that does them. However, it'll take time and a lot of unbiased testing before many of us will elevate a tester's results to command the respect of the three I mentioned above. I think that's why so many of us miss the testing that the three above do. Losing one of those three is a big loss to the community. =P

Hopefully Skinnee can adopt a similar methodology and have a similar unbiased approach.

In this I am for once in full agreement with you Ranker. While I don't really know the three, and yes I don't frequent these boards enough to have the status to be taken seriously (and I'm a bit overly passionate as stated before) I can't argue with your logic here.

[DementeD]

^ i do understand what your looking for...you want a full range of tests to see which performs best where..imo tho..if u like KL and theres only 1.5c difference go for them...neither block is bad imo however flow rate difference is very scary for a multiple blocks in a loop..id want to see a video card added with each and see the difference..but its hard to do things like this for everyones setup..its asking a lot from someone to do this type of testing since good testing takes a LOT of time..

so yea you could probably piece together a kit where the KL would win...maybe even 100 different kits ...but at the same time you could do the same with the swiftech...
however what you should do is try to gain as much info about the piece ur using ..and with the tests performed i think you can gain a lot about both blocks and use that to your advantage when piece together your loop..

the difference of 1.5c isnt much imo and probably wouldnt gain you any higher of an overclock..so go for whatever you like best..which in your case is KL..
and get over who the "king" is..it doesnt last long..

[skinnee]

Yep, I hear that. With the right bench and set up it's all one piece. You can pick it up, move anywhere you want when you're testing and put it away when done. That's actaully the bench I'm building now for a new round of CPU block testing. Although mine will serve as a cruncher when not testing, it can be moved up to my office when I want to run a test on something, and moved downstairs to the WCG team farm when not

andyc

Don't say that...we don't want my wife to read your post and try to invade the room I have. My bench/lab is a 10'x14' room in my basement which is temperature controlled on a different zone from the other rooms in the basement. I am installing countertops around the whole room to give me more sufarce area for test fixtures and concurrent tests. My area for taking photos spills over into the basement living room because the two light tents I have are larger than I can fit in the lab.

But seriously, don't say that, she might be looking over my shoulder. And don't tell her testing isn't expensive either, she'll want her paws on my stashed testing funds.

I think what most of us miss will be his unbiased testing. There are very few "straightshooters" on these boards when it comes to testing. Quite frankly, I won't trust anyone other than Nikhsub1, Petra, Martin (in that order), when it comes to testing. Too many people have their own "preferences" on these boards when it comes towards testing. It may not be apparent, but by reading their posts, you can notice the bias.

It's not easy to do these tests. I appreciate anyone that does them. However, it'll take time and a lot of unbiased testing before many of us will elevate a tester's results to command the respect of the three I mentioned above. I think that's why so many of us miss the testing that the three above do. Losing one of those three is a big loss to the community. =P

Hopefully Skinnee can adopt a similar methodology and have a similar unbiased approach.

I understand you do not know me from a hill of beans, so I respect your right to withhold judgement on me as a tester, my test reports and any biases you feel I might bring to the table. This might be a wasted attempt, but I will say it none the less...I am completely independent from any vendor, manufacturer or organization. I do not have any sponsorships or hidden agenda. What I am looking to accomplish in testing is to give back more than what I have received from the community and other testers like Martin. I am a firm beleiver in Karma, and this is my way of keeping things right.

If I have or show any sort of bias towards one particular company, my credibility as a tester and valued source of information is over. All of that hard work, time and effort is lost because I chose to have a bias in my testing. That is not to say I don't make predictions before I sit down for a test run, that is part of science in forming a hypothesis. A ritual in my testing is going back over the captured data and analyzing why my hypothesis was correct or incorrect. The biggest thing for me is learning, I always want to be learning something or I get bored.

I fully document my test equipment and methodology, I have nothing to hide or reason to withhold information. If there is ever a piece of data people want to see, I will gladly present that information. If community members want additional tests run, I do everything I can to facilitate those tests. I leaned heavily on Martin as I was dipping my toes into the test pool, and he kindly mentored me, answered goof ball questions and provided me with some critical tools to be able to test properly. If I test with a bias or favortism to a certain company, I throw away all of his time, effort and earned respect and more importantly lose the respect of the LC community.

I rambling here...but I would be glad to continue this conversation if needed.

I look forward to earning your respect and the respect of the Liquid Cooling community by my tests and my honesty.

you guys know skinnee read this thread and went OH BANANAS!!!

u guys are scaring all our testers.

Gabe and Stephans tests are professional lab grade tests. They have an environmental chamber, water chillers, the works. I am actually quite envious of the setup, and what they have for testing is what I am striving to have in my lab. Yes, I have rotameters, check valves, pumps, temperature sensors, large reservoirs and so on, but I can guarantee the test area used by Gabe and Stephan is first class, mine would be more like business class compared to first class. I do have most of the professional equipment, so coach didn't seem right. There is at least one community members here on XS who has been to my home several times and been in the lab while I was performing tests.

Reading some of the posts in this thread really made me worried that I am investing all of this time and fistfuls of money just for people of this community to ignore the test reports, time, learning and effort that goes into testing a particular piece of gear. I do see the independent tester and real world tests as a valuable and vital piece to the Liquid Cooling community, if I did not, I never would have taken on this endeavour.

The tests I and other community testers perform on the parts we purchase, vendor/manufacturer supplied and community member supplied samples are all fueled by what you the community wants tested and whats to see the performance results of, I would have never tested D5 tops had there not been the interest of the community.

I truly hope that the Liquid Cooling community still sees a place for and values indepedent testers. If there is anything we need more of, it would be more people testing and learning the right steps to take in performing tests with the equipment you have. With that comes the sharing of knowledge and information gained through the process. We are already doing this on a regular basis by recommending parts and debating products.

Sorry for getting a bit long winded here, I tend to stay out of the heated discussion and just be a witness. I like to stand back and take in anything I can from the discussions rather than stick my two cents in the middle of them. However, I was reading so many mixed messages I felt I had to post for some clarification.

[soulesschild]

Good words skinnee Best of luck to you.

[hellcamino]

Remember that Martin tested on a quad core which was 2 separate dies. Blocks can perform different on a center single die CPU like the i7.

Agreed, I would also like to see some tests on the new Phenom's as well.

[Utnorris]

Skinnee, I can't wait to start seeing you tests. You like Martin, don't have an agenda other than to further help the water cooling community. This is one reason I trusted Hondacity's results, he has no sponsorships and isn't a manufacture, so his only agenda is to find the facts. Now as some have pointed out, I am going back and put my tin foil hat back on and continue to watch the lemmings .

[santiagodraco]

^ i do understand what your looking for...you want a full range of tests to see which performs best where..imo tho..if u like KL and theres only 1.5c difference go for them...neither block is bad imo however flow rate difference is very scary for a multiple blocks in a loop..id want to see a video card added with each and see the difference..but its hard to do things like this for everyones setup..its asking a lot from someone to do this type of testing since good testing takes a LOT of time..

so yea you could probably piece together a kit where the KL would win...maybe even 100 different kits ...but at the same time you could do the same with the swiftech...
however what you should do is try to gain as much info about the piece ur using ..and with the tests performed i think you can gain a lot about both blocks and use that to your advantage when piece together your loop..

the difference of 1.5c isnt much imo and probably wouldnt gain you any higher of an overclock..so go for whatever you like best..which in your case is KL..
and get over who the "king" is..it doesnt last long..

I agree, if the block doesn't perform better with more flow/pressure then it is an issue considering how restrictive it is. I share the same concern, hence my desire to make sure we know that "even with" the increased restriction the block offeres something to make it worth it.

[nikhsub1]

How might the two blocks perform if the pump flow rate was increased by 50% on the same exact setup? The fact that those tests were not performed, and especially knowing that one block is designed in a specific fashion as to require high pump flow, I call bs on this test as meaningful overall.

Swiftech's pump is uber powerful, think RD-30 or so. I am assuming with the flow rates Gabe posted that his pump was MAXED out. You do realize that to get 50% more flow you would need 2.5 RD-30's? Let me ask you, who will run that much pump? What purpose would that much flow serve? If anything feed the blocks about 50% LESS and see the results.

Now onto some meaningful commentary, I have 100% confidence in skinnee... I know he will do a great job, I do believe he will more than fill Martin's shoes. And ranker, thanks for the kind words.

[SiGfever]

Skinnee is a real professional and a stand up guy. His real life job requires the highest level of professionalism and accuracy. He is a computer junkie like most here and loves the chase for the numbers and reasons why. Skinnee and Martin are two of the same mold, truthful, dedicated and accurate to a fault.

I for one applaud skinnee's dedication to this forum and to the passion that we call watercooling.

[rocket733]

*snip*

Reading some of the posts in this thread really made me worried that I am investing all of this time and fistfuls of money just for people of this community to ignore the test reports, time, learning and effort that goes into testing a particular piece of gear. I do see the independent tester and real world tests as a valuable and vital piece to the Liquid Cooling community, if I did not, I never would have taken on this endeavour.

*snip*

Sorry for getting a bit long winded here, I tend to stay out of the heated discussion and just be a witness. I like to stand back and take in anything I can from the discussions rather than stick my two cents in the middle of them. However, I was reading so many mixed messages I felt I had to post for some clarification.

I think that most of your supporters will be part of the silent majority. They will be the person that reads, understands, is thankful but won't raise hell because there's nothing in their mind to raise hell about. However there will be the small number of people who troll and since they're the most vocal it seems that many others share their opinion. They're the type of person that ignores everything unless it agrees with their bias and won't be convinced not matter who performed the test. Anywhoo, keep up the good work, I'm thankful for the time and effort you put into your testing.

[shazza]

Have read this thread with interest. I'm looking forward to skinnee's testing. I'm sure debates will follow once results are in, but we can learn from the discussions as well (even those of us who generally just read these types of threads and stay silent).

I'm totally objective ... but do find some of the criticism aimed at Gabe's testing unwarranted. He said it was an "informal" test. And yes, while I can see where some believe it would be hard for him to be objective, he posts here with his Swiftech affiliation clearly shown. If he wanted to be duplicitous, wouldn't he be posting as Joe Cool or some similar moniker? Anyway ... thanks for the helpful info, Gabe.

[ranker]

Don't say that...we don't want my wife to read your post and try to invade the room I have. My bench/lab is a 10'x14' room in my basement which is temperature controlled on a different zone from the other rooms in the basement. I am installing countertops around the whole room to give me more sufarce area for test fixtures and concurrent tests. My area for taking photos spills over into the basement living room because the two light tents I have are larger than I can fit in the lab.

But seriously, don't say that, she might be looking over my shoulder. And don't tell her testing isn't expensive either, she'll want her paws on my stashed testing funds.



I understand you do not know me from a hill of beans, so I respect your right to withhold judgement on me as a tester, my test reports and any biases you feel I might bring to the table. This might be a wasted attempt, but I will say it none the less...I am completely independent from any vendor, manufacturer or organization. I do not have any sponsorships or hidden agenda. What I am looking to accomplish in testing is to give back more than what I have received from the community and other testers like Martin. I am a firm beleiver in Karma, and this is my way of keeping things right.

If I have or show any sort of bias towards one particular company, my credibility as a tester and valued source of information is over. All of that hard work, time and effort is lost because I chose to have a bias in my testing. That is not to say I don't make predictions before I sit down for a test run, that is part of science in forming a hypothesis. A ritual in my testing is going back over the captured data and analyzing why my hypothesis was correct or incorrect. The biggest thing for me is learning, I always want to be learning something or I get bored.

I fully document my test equipment and methodology, I have nothing to hide or reason to withhold information. If there is ever a piece of data people want to see, I will gladly present that information. If community members want additional tests run, I do everything I can to facilitate those tests. I leaned heavily on Martin as I was dipping my toes into the test pool, and he kindly mentored me, answered goof ball questions and provided me with some critical tools to be able to test properly. If I test with a bias or favortism to a certain company, I throw away all of his time, effort and earned respect and more importantly lose the respect of the LC community.

I rambling here...but I would be glad to continue this conversation if needed.

I look forward to earning your respect and the respect of the Liquid Cooling community by my tests and my honesty.



Gabe and Stephans tests are professional lab grade tests. They have an environmental chamber, water chillers, the works. I am actually quite envious of the setup, and what they have for testing is what I am striving to have in my lab. Yes, I have rotameters, check valves, pumps, temperature sensors, large reservoirs and so on, but I can guarantee the test area used by Gabe and Stephan is first class, mine would be more like business class compared to first class. I do have most of the professional equipment, so coach didn't seem right. There is at least one community members here on XS who has been to my home several times and been in the lab while I was performing tests.

Reading some of the posts in this thread really made me worried that I am investing all of this time and fistfuls of money just for people of this community to ignore the test reports, time, learning and effort that goes into testing a particular piece of gear. I do see the independent tester and real world tests as a valuable and vital piece to the Liquid Cooling community, if I did not, I never would have taken on this endeavour.

The tests I and other community testers perform on the parts we purchase, vendor/manufacturer supplied and community member supplied samples are all fueled by what you the community wants tested and whats to see the performance results of, I would have never tested D5 tops had there not been the interest of the community.

I truly hope that the Liquid Cooling community still sees a place for and values indepedent testers. If there is anything we need more of, it would be more people testing and learning the right steps to take in performing tests with the equipment you have. With that comes the sharing of knowledge and information gained through the process. We are already doing this on a regular basis by recommending parts and debating products.

Sorry for getting a bit long winded here, I tend to stay out of the heated discussion and just be a witness. I like to stand back and take in anything I can from the discussions rather than stick my two cents in the middle of them. However, I was reading so many mixed messages I felt I had to post for some clarification.

Ah I think you took my post the wrong way Skinnee. Basically, there are only a few testers whom I know well enough for me to faithfully believe their tests without much questioning. As you've described above, they've faithfully served the community for an extended period of time without rooting for one company/product or another. Every other person that shows a test, I'll take it with a grain of salt. I won't take it for the gospel truth but rather as a general indicator of what to expect in that situation.

Like I've noted in this thread, I've taken a 1.5 year sabbatical from WC'ing and probably haven't seen your work yet. Since stand up guys like McCoffey (I love you even though I vehemently disagree on the aesthetics issue =P ) /Sig/Naekuh have vouched for you, I see no reason to question your results. However, please understand it takes sometime before I consider you the 4th apostle to join the Books of Nikhsub1, Petra, and Martin. =)

I look forward to seeing your work and appreciate any tests you do for the community!

Swiftech's pump is uber powerful, think RD-30 or so. I am assuming with the flow rates Gabe posted that his pump was MAXED out. You do realize that to get 50% more flow you would need 2.5 RD-30's? Let me ask you, who will run that much pump? What purpose would that much flow serve? If anything feed the blocks about 50% LESS and see the results.

Now onto some meaningful commentary, I have 100% confidence in skinnee... I know he will do a great job, I do believe he will more than fill Martin's shoes. And ranker, thanks for the kind words.

NP. Like I said, without your tests a few years back, I can only fear the rampant fanboism that would have descended upon these forums without legitimate data to settle the dust. I could always trust you to call a spade a spade and not get caught up with marketing hype, aesthetics, and other unimportant distractions this community often faces.

If I didn't thank you before, I'll take the time now to thank you once again for all of your contributions to the community.

Anyhow, I hope everyone appreciates the testing that was done here. I think Gabe provided this information in the most tactful way possible. He ran his tests, outlined his methodology, and left the data for us to process. While I believe end users should often include a brief conclusion, I find it much more tactful when the manufacturers leave that part out to avoid the 'MY BLOCK KICKS YOUR BLOCKS ASS" flamebaiting.

[T_Flight]

All testing and data is what separates this forum from many others I have seen.

It's no joke. People here have fun with this stuff, but they are serious when it comes to what does what, and how it performs. We all know where we are at...that goes without saying. This place has a reputation for being one of the finest watercooling sites ont he planet and it's becasue of these people and their tests. These people have aquired some very expensive equipment, and have spent I don't even wanna think how much time doing these tests, then they have to compile all the data, make it into a formatted piece that we can all read, and post it.

I don't care who does the testing. I trust it unless I was given some reason not to. I take people at their word. The people here that do testing are doing it because they have earned that respect. ALL of them have that respect from me.

[Sadasius]

I think it is awesome that Gabe posted those results to lend a hand in testing. Not many companies will do that or will just show graphs pulled from their butt's (SilenX ). Any contribution is welcome and as we know we have testers who will validate that information anyway. Gabe has shown to be trustworthy and I personally appreciate the testing done. It's nice to have companies that get involved and listen to make products better and to release new ideas and innovations like the GTZ. Thanks Gabe!

[santiagodraco]

Gabe and Stephans tests are professional lab grade tests. They have an environmental chamber, water chillers, the works. I am actually quite envious of the setup, and what they have for testing is what I am striving to have in my lab. Yes, I have rotameters, check valves, pumps, temperature sensors, large reservoirs and so on, but I can guarantee the test area used by Gabe and Stephan is first class, mine would be more like business class compared to first class. I do have most of the professional equipment, so coach didn't seem right. There is at least one community members here on XS who has been to my home several times and been in the lab while I was performing tests.

Reading some of the posts in this thread really made me worried that I am investing all of this time and fistfuls of money just for people of this community to ignore the test reports, time, learning and effort that goes into testing a particular piece of gear. I do see the independent tester and real world tests as a valuable and vital piece to the Liquid Cooling community, if I did not, I never would have taken on this endeavour.

The tests I and other community testers perform on the parts we purchase, vendor/manufacturer supplied and community member supplied samples are all fueled by what you the community wants tested and whats to see the performance results of, I would have never tested D5 tops had there not been the interest of the community.

I truly hope that the Liquid Cooling community still sees a place for and values indepedent testers. If there is anything we need more of, it would be more people testing and learning the right steps to take in performing tests with the equipment you have. With that comes the sharing of knowledge and information gained through the process. We are already doing this on a regular basis by recommending parts and debating products.

Sorry for getting a bit long winded here, I tend to stay out of the heated discussion and just be a witness. I like to stand back and take in anything I can from the discussions rather than stick my two cents in the middle of them. However, I was reading so many mixed messages I felt I had to post for some clarification.

Well, I can appreciate you being humble about your lab environment, but there's a reason manufacturers don't rely on "lab" results for testing the products they product, and that's because the lab doesn't always properly/fully represent the real world. Because of that I'd personally put a lot more stock in your business class test lab than a first class test lab that doesn't truly represent what users have in the field. I've also seen some of your tests, and I think the level of detail and range of tests you perform speak volumes for unbiased testing especially taken in the context of this thread and the proffered test results.

[Utnorris]

Just curious and anyone one chime in with an answer, but why test it against the Koolance block and not the EK or D-tek blocks or for that matter all of them? Just curious, nothing more, nothing less.

[twwen2]

Just curious and anyone one chime in with an answer, but why test it against the Koolance block and not the EK or D-tek blocks or for that matter all of them? Just curious, nothing more, nothing less.

Perhaps because the 350 has been shown to be one of the best on i7? Just a thought...

[[XC] riptide]

Perhaps because the 350 has been shown to be one of the best on i7? Just a thought...

Also in the stickies theres a review of them versus the GTZ. http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=198681 Albeit with a C2Q.

[T_Flight]

mcoffey gave it a 5 dead horses award! Oh man, it's like very thread I click on is hilarious lately.

[santiagodraco]

Swiftech's pump is uber powerful, think RD-30 or so. I am assuming with the flow rates Gabe posted that his pump was MAXED out. You do realize that to get 50% more flow you would need 2.5 RD-30's? Let me ask you, who will run that much pump? What purpose would that much flow serve? If anything feed the blocks about 50% LESS and see the results.

Now onto some meaningful commentary, I have 100% confidence in skinnee... I know he will do a great job, I do believe he will more than fill Martin's shoes. And ranker, thanks for the kind words.

To be honest I didn't realize that. Then I went over and read Skinee's review of the Koolance top (which reviewed well) and the flow rates at max speed....

Honestly it looks like I was completely wrong in my assumption here and that Gabe was actually running at a higher pressure than the vast majority of users in the field would ever see.

Frankly I'm a bit embarassed but I'd rather learn the hard way than not learn at all

[nikhsub1]

To be honest I didn't realize that. Then I went over and read Skinee's review of the Koolance top (which reviewed well) and the flow rates at max speed....

Honestly it looks like I was completely wrong in my assumption here and that Gabe was actually running at a higher pressure than the vast majority of users in the field would ever see.

Frankly I'm a bit embarassed but I'd rather learn the hard way than not learn at all

I have the utmost respect for people who can admit when they are wrong, learn from it and move on. I do it all the time. I've been wrong and when I am, I own up to it. Your clout with me just went up a whole lot.

[ranker]

Interesting, I was reading another thread and stumbled on something:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=201501

Hellcamino seems to be passionate about his dislike for Swiftech. I now see why he's so adamant about proving Gabe/Swiftech wrong.

[hellcamino]

Interesting, I was reading another thread and stumbled on something:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=201501

Hellcamino seems to be passionate about his dislike for Swiftech. I now see why he's so adamant about proving Gabe/Swiftech wrong.

Show me where in this thread where I have tried to say Gabe was wrong please. Yes I have certainly had a bad experience with Gabe but I saw no reason to dig it up here. I just don't think much of the test in question.

Let me say this one more time for the cheap seats....What I personally like to see is real world tests only. The reason behind that is simple...you get to see real world results.

[T_Flight]

He he, I almost forgot that one....and a highly coveted award too I might add. I learned alot during that round of testing. Primarily that 1.6 c spread between the blocks doesn't amount to squat I busted my damn ass over 1.6 c Like that was going to be some revolutionary thing. That's when the light bulb sort of came on for me.

You gotta love it man.

andyc

Lemme tell 'ya. I've kinda thought about what this testing entails. For one thing before you start you'd have to get a box full of TIM...no joke. Then, you have to start thinking about the variables and how to isolate all of them. Then after that buy the equipment (which ain't cheap) and set it all up and get it working and checked. The after that you'd have to do "test tests" to make sure the tests made sense...in other words "trials". Then after that you have to do all of those blocks with multiple mounts (so carefully) which would be a marathon session all the while watching ambients and trying to control variables while juggling the computer and making sure the test is going like it's supposed to and the software is working. Then, after all of the tests are done, go back and recheck the equipment and make sure something did not skew the results. Then compile all the data, look it over, and start writing, proof read, and post it.

Whew! I know I didn't cover half of it either. It ain't that simple with stuff like this until you actually do it. I've done many tests before on rocket motors, and it is by no means easy. Any kind of testing like this takes hours, days and sometimes weeks to do.

Heck I spent months one time just doing small scale tests for a large rocket firing. The actual firing was awesome, but it lasted 10 seconds. Oh it was a rush, but you can pour work into testing stuff.

It looks easy when these reviews and tests come out, but it ain't easy at all. That doesn't begin to fully describe it I know.