The odd part is that you don't seem to understand that I -do- understand yet still feel this way.Originally Posted by JumpingJack
The odd part is that you don't seem to understand that I -do- understand yet still feel this way.
Particle's First Rule of Online Technical Discussion:
As a thread about any computer related subject has its length approach infinity, the likelihood and inevitability of a poorly constructed AMD vs. Intel fight also exponentially increases.
Rule 1A:
Likewise, the frequency of a car pseudoanalogy to explain a technical concept increases with thread length. This will make many people chuckle, as computer people are rarely knowledgeable about vehicular mechanics.
Rule 2:
When confronted with a post that is contrary to what a poster likes, believes, or most often wants to be correct, the poster will pick out only minor details that are largely irrelevant in an attempt to shut out the conflicting idea. The core of the post will be left alone since it isn't easy to contradict what the person is actually saying.
Rule 2A:
When a poster cannot properly refute a post they do not like (as described above), the poster will most likely invent fictitious counter-points and/or begin to attack the other's credibility in feeble ways that are dramatic but irrelevant. Do not underestimate this tactic, as in the online world this will sway many observers. Do not forget: Correctness is decided only by what is said last, the most loudly, or with greatest repetition.
Rule 3:
When it comes to computer news, 70% of Internet rumors are outright fabricated, 20% are inaccurate enough to simply be discarded, and about 10% are based in reality. Grains of salt--become familiar with them.
Remember: When debating online, everyone else is ALWAYS wrong if they do not agree with you!
Random Tip o' the Whatever
You just can't win. If your product offers feature A instead of B, people will moan how A is stupid and it didn't offer B. If your product offers B instead of A, they'll likewise complain and rant about how anyone's retarded cousin could figure out A is what the market wants.
A showtopper bug is an errata that's sever enough to make a recall because there is now workaround. Anyways, my point was that it even if a chip has 100s of errata it only takes 1 errata for the "show to stop" So you can't just compare chips by the number of errata but the severity of the errata.Wow, you have predicted the future, it's already happening.
qurious63ss, I don't think you understand the difference between "showstopper bug" and errata... if Intel's CPU are buggy people *will* notice and they *will* have to recall or replace their CPUs the way AMD did.
Last edited by qurious63ss; 12-02-2008 at 07:32 AM.
Just to try and keep it simple. I will just paste the short descriptions.
AMD TLB bug:
Under a highly specific and detailed set of conditions, an internal resource livelock may occur between a TLB reload and other cached operations.Intel TLB bug 1:
Under certain conditions when C6 and two logical processors on the same core are enabled on a processor, an instruction fetch occurring after a logical processor exits from C6 may incorrectly use the translation lookaside buffer (TLB) address mapping belonging to the other logical processor in the processor core.Intel TLB bug 2:
Following an exit from core C6, previously logged TLB (Translation Lookaside Buffer) errors in IA32_MCi_STATUS may be cleared.
Implication: Due to this erratum, TLB errors logged in the associated machine check bank prior to core C6 entry may be cleared. Provided machine check exceptions are enabled, the machine check exception handler can log any uncorrectable TLB errors prior to core C6 entry. The TLB marks all detected errors as uncorrectable.
Workaround: As long as machine check exceptions are enabled, the machine check exception handler can log the TLB error prior to core C6 entry. This will ensure the error is logged before it is cleared.None of the 2 companies actually writes data corruption btw.Intel TLB bug 3:
Under certain conditions, writes to IA32_CR_PAT (277H) or IA32_EFER (C0000080H) MSRs may result in an incorrect ITLB (instruction translation lookaside buffer) translation.
First of all you can see that the descriptions are very very different from one another. That itself should show its not something that is related.
Bug 1 for Intel also requires the CPU to be in deep sleep, and have HT on. Both bug 1 and 3 relates to ITLB actually.
Bug 2 you would never see when you run Windows etc. Since machine checks are enabled anyway.
So as with all the other bugs on the AMD and Intel CPUs. Only 1 bug was critical. And that was the AMD TLB bug sofar. All the other 300 phenom bugs and sofar 77 i7 bugs and some 200+ C2 bugs are non critical. But that doesnt make people click on your website...does it?
Just as a fun note from the Phenom list:
For the senstionalist/clueless person. It sounds like something major. Memory instability!!!Memory Instability After PWROK Assertion
Or this one:
OMG..it cant calculate correctly!A DIV Instruction Followed Closely By Other Divide Instructions May Yield Incorrect Results
It doesnt even know what to execute and when!Processor Core May Execute Incorrect Instructions on Concurrent L2 and Northbridge Response
Easy to make something big out of nothing if you want to. And/or doesnt understand what you are reading.
Last edited by Shintai; 12-02-2008 at 07:31 AM.
Crunching for Comrades and the Common good of the People.
Let's put an end to this. There is no commercial Core i7 having any issue what so ever with TLBs, the performance showed by all the reviewer is correct. The Errata quoted were about Core 2, in April 2007 ...
That is an old stuff that was putted in the Documentation, nothing to worry about.
Last edited by Drwho?; 12-02-2008 at 07:40 AM.
DrWho, The last of the time lords, setting up the Clock.
Hey Francois a bit off topic, but any idea when those Core i7s are heading to the chip loaner program?
I have no clue ... you can get a Gateway machine for 990$with a 920 ...
DrWho, The last of the time lords, setting up the Clock.
Sorry I thought you knew what chip loaner program is. It's a program we have in Fab32 11X and I think Oregon has it too where we get a chip for a year to use. Currently I have Q9550 through this program but in January I will be elgible for a new chip. Would love to get a Ci7.
IntelFuad
||[b] Intel i7 4770K @ Phanteks PH-TC14PE || Asus Maximus VI Hero || 16 GB Gskill TridentX @ 2400MHz || CoolerMaster CosMoS S II || Asus GTX 780 @ AC Accelero Xtreme III[size=1]|| 24" BenQ XL 2410T @ 120HZ || 256GB Samsung 840 Pro || WD Green 1 TB , WD Green 2 TB || OCZ ZX 1000W || @ [size=1]|| Creative SoundBlaster Zx - Logitech Z-2300 || Logitech G19 || Logitech G700s|| [/color] ||
Thus far it seems to be vice versa, so far FUD managed to do anything anywayIntel
Synaptic Overflow
CPU:
-Intel Core i7 920 3841A522
--CPU: 4200Mhz| Vcore: +120mV| Uncore: 3200Mhz| VTT: +100mV| Turbo: On| HT: Off
---CPU block: EK Supreme Acetal| Radiator: TCF X-Changer 480mm
Motherboard:
-Foxconn Bloodrage P06
--Blck: 200Mhz| QPI: 3600Mhz
Graphics:
-Sapphire Radeon HD 4870X2
--GPU: 750Mhz| GDDR: 900Mhz
RAM:
-3x 2GB Mushkin XP3-12800
--Mhz: 800Mhz| Vdimm: 1.65V| Timings: 7-8-7-20-1T
Storage:
-3Ware 9650SE-2LP RAID controller
--2x Western Digital 74GB Raptor RAID 0
PSU:
-Enermax Revolution 85+ 1250W
OS:
-Windows Vista Business x64
ORDERED: Sapphire HD 5970 OC
LOOKING FOR: 2x G.Skill Falcon II 128GB SSD, Windows 7
That's true. Wait till you guys see how many errata GT200 has
I think that the worst was NV40, which made the software driver team completely hate the hardware team
Personally I don't give aJust to try and keep it simple. I will just paste the short descriptions.
None of the 2 companies actually writes data corruption btw.
First of all you can see that the descriptions are very very different from one another. That itself should show its not something that is related.
Bug 1 for Intel also requires the CPU to be in deep sleep, and have HT on. Both bug 1 and 3 relates to ITLB actually.
Bug 2 you would never see when you run Windows etc. Since machine checks are enabled anyway.
So as with all the other bugs on the AMD and Intel CPUs. Only 1 bug was critical. And that was the AMD TLB bug sofar. All the other 300 phenom bugs and sofar 77 i7 bugs and some 200+ C2 bugs are non critical. But that doesnt make people click on your website...does it?
Just as a fun note from the Phenom list:
For the senstionalist/clueless person. It sounds like something major. Memory instability!!!
Or this one:
OMG..it cant calculate correctly!
It doesnt even know what to execute and when!
Easy to make something big out of nothing if you want to. And/or doesnt understand what you are reading.about erratas or CPU problems from any of the companies. I just want the CPU to work correctly. If that means you have to patch via microcode update or BIOS, so be it.
BTW...if your system hangs, you'll have a good chance of data corruption. But you know that already. They go hand in hand together. You can argue semantics all you like, but the point is Intel had a bug that could've potentially caused system hangs and data corruption. They fixed it. That's the bottom line.
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