To everyone in the WC section, Please read!

[twwen2]

This forum should not be here to make decisions for people, just suggest some products that might be good for their situation. I was looking for a PSU awhile back and after my head felt like it was going to explode from all the reviews I had read, I asked for recommendations based on what I was looking for. I got a lot answers including some from JohnnyGuru. I took all that info, put it in a pot, stirred it, baked it on 375 degrees for an hour and then made a decision. In the end it was my decision and not someone else's and therefore I owned that, good or bad. So I say "Take some responsibility for your decisions or lack of" and do not expect that others should make them for you.

I like that bit. At the risk of something (i'm not suite sure what lol); i think some people are just out to please the other members here. To suck up, to fit in.

Why, you ask?
Because i was like that to start with. I wanted to get parts that others here were using, not beause i needed them or they were best for me, but because i felt like "i i have this, i'll fit in and be accepted".

It's important that each member and newbie makes informed decisions, but we're not here to tell you what you want or like. We should give advice based on the criteria given to us (most of the time a budget). I can't stand it when someone (without having done any research) asks us to tell them what to buy. It makes me want to yell "You gotta get what you want. Only then will you be happy". I reckon that's half the fun of building a wc system; doing hours of research and getting exactly what you want, with some stuff you don't actually need.

[IanY]

I think some people are just out to please the other members here. To suck up, to fit in.

That's just blooming ridiculous. I never follow equipment trends, especially in XS. I don't even agree with the choices of those whom I call friends, and i'm certainly not going to blindly emulate them. Naekuh and RRR love their EK Supreme. You can't get me to buy one, even if you were to tie me up and subject me to Vietcong torture.

I caused a whole ruckus with YL fans, and I got the "I am Cathar and I endorse them.. " My attitude was.."yeah you like them, and 95 out of 100 people in XS like them, but it doesn't change the fact that they are still cheap Chinese crap.. and Cathar who?"

[[XC] riptide]

That's just blooming ridiculous. I never follow equipment trends, especially in XS. I don't even agree with the choices of those whom I call friends, and i'm certainly not going to blindly emulate them. Naekuh and RRR love their EK Supreme. You can't get me to buy one, even if you were to tie me up and subject me to Vietcong torture.

I caused a whole ruckus with YL fans, and I got the "I am Cathar and I endorse them.. " My attitude was.."yeah you like them, and 95 out of 100 people in XS like them, but it doesn't change the fact that they are still cheap Chinese crap.. and Cathar who?"

His post wasn't about you and didn't mention your name once. Why did you answer like this?

BTW The bolded part... was it necessary? This is the kind of thing this whole thread is about.

[twwen2]

That's just blooming ridiculous. I never follow equipment trends, especially in XS. I don't even agree with the choices of those whom I call friends, and i'm certainly not going to blindly emulate them. Naekuh and RRR love their EK Supreme. You can't get me to buy one, even if you were to tie me up and subject me to Vietcong torture.

I caused a whole ruckus with YL fans, and I got the "I am Cathar and I endorse them.. " My attitude was.."yeah you like them, and 95 out of 100 people in XS like them, but it doesn't change the fact that they are still cheap Chinese crap.. and Cathar who?"

Aha, i didn't have you in mind my friend. I know very well you don't follow the trends, you make that very clear very often .

However, just because you aren't like what i described doesn't mean there aren't those people out there. Just to clarify; i don't think everyone who asks for advice is trying to fit in or follow a trend. Not at all. I'm just saying that there are some people like that, because i was like that once.

And what was that thing about cathar for? I reckon if someone deliberately gave advice contrary to what someone like Martin210 would say, then i bet people would get worked up. I'd be the first. We respect the experts and their opinions because of the effort they put into this community.

[Gir92]

I agree with CD, I think alot of the problems have occurred because folks need to "Do something (that does NOT mean posting in this forum)". the old days of the forum used to be filled with people testing stuff and fabricating custom projects. Back in those days folks were too busy with a copper slab on thier drill presses or soldering on a heatercore, you just didn't get here without some pain and time invested in building stuff, it was a necessity. With watercooling going more mainstream, water cooling has made fabrication optional, you can have a fully functional water cooling system out of the box with 100% bolt on parts. No need to build and no need to test or tinker, it works. So I think part of it is just plain boredom, they don't share or contribute anything to the forum but their strong personality and business relationship opinions. I'd suggest taking the mix of parts and try and see if you can make them better, tinkering is always a means to make something even better and there is no one magic bullet or perfect combination for everyones budget or experience. We need more folks "Trying" or "Building" wierd ideas and, that's where the fun is at!! And even if we're not building parts from scratch, there's still tons to do with combinations of parts and sharing what you've learned.

I also think in general the "feel" here has been defensive and destructive. If you make folks feel uncomfortable or always find yourself in the middle of irritation, chances are you are being "Destructive" to the thread. If you are not posting something with 100% intent to help posotively encourage and help the person posting, you've failed at being constructive and you are being selfish. You shouldn't find yourself in the middle of conflict on every other thread or chances are, something is wrong. Take ownership of your actions and seek to be constructive.

I also think people are just sick of all the SPAM. AKA brand loyalty and fanboism, whatever you know what it is. Opinions without context as to why you feel the way you do is no different than your most annoying pop up banner ad. Opinions without context are SPAM!!

That's not to say we shouldn't have fun. If the forum was nothing but engineering data, I'd probably be one of a few sick souls that would stay here and enjoy reading it, but it would be quiet. Honestly water cooling is a hobby, it's not necessary, and it's not a perfect science. We're here to have fun, so lets do it, but just don't do it at the expense of others.

Cheers to constructive comments, constructive discussions, context supported opinions, and having an honest but respectful good time!!


Beers are on me!..

To add onto that, if you don't have anything that you can contribute to the thread and have proof to back it up, don't say anything at all. (Unless it's an opinion, which can never be backed up by facts.)

"A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool speaks because he has to say something" - Plato

[septim]

i think the term fanboi denotes too much meaning for some people... (meaning the person is blind to everything else besides said product)... and should not be used often... i prefer/he prefers would be the better term/statement to use.

Just an example: RRR prefers this and that, but is also open to other opinions/suggestions (and will probably buy said other opinion/product and add it to his collection)
He is entitled to his opinion, and when you get to know his attitude/behavior, you either let it slide or let it get to you. Of course its better to let it slide.
this is an open forum, and some youngsters do learn from the examples we set. so keep things civil...

This is XtremeSystems Liquid Cooling, I came here to learn and teach what i learn. Patience and Common Sense being foremost.
I am sorry if the guy who PMed didn't stay or have the patience to wade through the recent BS going on around here, but there are always more people to teach and advice each day.

*sometimes typing in text doesn't clearly explain what we want to explain. people just need to keep an open mind on such topics. mods and members alike.

[.Logic]

Damn, I can't believe I have only just found this thread. It has only been in the past 2weeks that I too have wanted to do something similar. Now I haven't been at XS for long (3 and a 1/2 years lurking plus time as a member) compared to some, but it doesn't take much to see that the watercooling section has taken a turn for the worse and been deteriorating slowly but surely for a good 3 months (maybe less maybe more, that is just the time I began to REALLY notice things heading south). All I can say is that some serious growing up needs to be done by the respective offenders and that I am glad that this issue has been brought to light. Hopefully the WC section can become what it once was...

Mods, I want to thankyou for your on going service/commitment to the XS community. I know it can't be easy but you guys persevere nonetheless, I'm sure this problem (now out in the open more than ever) will be no different. You guys are truely what keeps XS tick tocking away (and some). </end suck up>

I only hope that this issue can be overcome and any disagreements between individuals be set straight.

Cheers to XS and all those whom play a constructive part, whether that be in the running, maintenance or contribution to discussion and content on the site.

Thankyou.

[Utnorris]

We are all guilty of promoting a product at some point, including DB, yes DB you too. Remember when the Swiftech GTZ was announced, there was a lot folks ready to dump their current block for the GTZ. Then the tests were done and it looked as though it was no better than the D-Tek Fuzion V2. Now when someone asks which block to get, the GTZ comes up. This is by people who don't even own it. That doesn't make them fanboi's, it just means they are sheep following the herd. To me you shouldn't recommend something you personally haven't tried even if you can point to some review to back up your claim. Given enough time I am sure I could find where someone pissed on their chip and it cooled it, doesn't mean I would recommend it. I only recomend the products I either own currently or have owned and then I qualify it with a big "IMHO" quote. There are no right parts when doing water cooling or even building a computer, just recommendations. This is because what may work for one person doesn't mean it will work for another at giving them their desired results. We all have goals when we build a new system or modify an existing one and therefore there are no bad ideas. Unless you have tried doing exactly what someone is trying for the same reasons you really cannot say without a doubt what will or will not work. This of course is just my opinion.

[gillbot]

I understand that vendors failing to live up to their side should be brought to light in a courteous manner but sometimes that isn't an option.

I've had a few run-ins myself where the polite and tactful approach got me a "sorry you are SOL" email in return. Only after I smeared their name across every forum I cared to post it on, did they finally honor their warranty and make good on their product. We all know of companies skimming on product quality knowingly only to increase their bottom line. To me, these types of companies don't deserve the tactful approach.

[septim]

When a person has to go to every thread where their preferred product is not the one being spoken of in a good light and inject <insert favored product name here> FTW . . . then that is Fan Boism. That includes using other FTW substitutes but still basically being a broken record . . .

i am sure each and everyone of us has encountered these kind of persons before but i don't make it a point to correct each and everyone of them. as it would be a waste of my time...

i am also sure that you have encountered these kind of persons in your modding world, those that vehemently prefer this design over what you're planning. but you don't really have to listen to them, cause they ain't the one building said project.

much like RRR, he prefers this product over that, but in the end he ain't the one building the member's project, in the end its the member who gets to decide which product he will buy and add to his ongoing project, he don't really have to listen to RRR's preference (unless of course RRR finances said project, hehehe)...

i would like to suggest to you guys with hot heads and bruised egos to take a few days/weeks break from posting once in a while to cool off, unwind and relax... take a step back and re evaluate yourselves...as its not really mandatory to post in XS once or several times a day just to build up post count...

[Sadasius]

That's the best thing you can do when someone irritates you around here

It's a forum members best friend IMO.

thanks,

andyc

I agree very much. If they irritate you so much and you know they can push your buttons the good ol ignore list works wonders. Plus it saves the scroll wheel. So save a dying scroll wheel today and use the ignore options. It adds years!

[Ashraf]

Thread cleaned.

[skinnee]

I understand that vendors failing to live up to their side should be brought to light in a courteous manner but sometimes that isn't an option.

I've had a few run-ins myself where the polite and tactful approach got me a "sorry you are SOL" email in return. Only after I smeared their name across every forum I cared to post it on, did they finally honor their warranty and make good on their product. We all know of companies skimming on product quality knowingly only to increase their bottom line. To me, these types of companies don't deserve the tactful approach.

In this scenario you described, I don't have a problem with your second course of action. You tried civil and upfront approach, that didn't work, so you tried another method. I am almost certain we are on the same page here. Try the honest and civil approach...if that doesn't work, raise the issue.

[Waterlogged]

Thread cleaned.

That's too bad because I was about to make a very valid point about maturity using some of those posts. Oh well.

[NaeKuh]

do you guys seriously think i care what a vendor says or does (do you think nikhsub1 even cares?)
You guys forget i probably dumped more then 4 figures in each h2o company right now?
I think that itself entitles me to express my own opinions on that product.

If a vendor black lists me, do you honestly think i cant go somewhere else to get my own stuff? I have a lot of friends who own mills that could pop out whatever i wanted in a matter of weeks.

Have you guys forgotten next to our legend moders, i probably hold the largest custom eq collection on this forum.

Maturity, Why are we protecting the people we are buying stuff from? Isnt there obligation to listen to us and meet our requests?

The fanboism in picking parts i agree, but the vendor quarrls?

Ash can i remind you a vendor said i was wrong for 5 months only to be proved later on that HE was wrong instead? IS THIS FAIR?

Try the honest and civil approach...if that doesn't work, raise the issue.

Am i ever not social or not nice? Even my Koolance warning thread, did i not make a clear and to the point issue? What if i kept this though emails and PM's. Did you count how many other people realized this problem AFTER i posted?

Ash you seriously telling me not to speak to ANY Vendors on the open forum anymore? I only talk to them on 2 situations.

1. Awesome product giving them upgrade possibilities or compliements on such a fine production piece.
2. Lay down a can of whoop ass cuz they shin'd to noobies and i dont really like that.

[Spawne32]

Thread cleaned.

that gif i posted was gold and you know it

[IanY]

I'm sure you don't want to hear my opinion, but I'll state it anyway. In my opinion, Naekuh is absolutely correct. It is incumbent on the manufacturers to please their customers, and not the other way around. At the end of the day, the only people who are hurt by poor customer relations are the manufacturers and retailers themselves. They choose to ignore their major customers at their own peril.

[Xilikon]

I'm sure you don't want to hear my opinion, but I'll state it anyway. In my opinion, Naekuh is absolutely correct. It is incumbent on the manufacturers to please their customers, and not the other way around. At the end of the day, the only people who are hurt by poor customer relations are the manufacturers and retailers themselves. They choose to ignore their major customers at their own peril.

At the risk of be treated as a sheep, I agree with IanY. After all, what they seek in the end is our money

[fart_plume]

This is Sad, Just Sad, Everyone need to go back to the beginning of thread and reread Dave's op post. With as many times as Ashraf has had to come in here and clean this thread you'd think you were in SF. Think before you post people.

[NaeKuh]

okey no i agree with you guys.

There is a difference between going OMFG vendor X is a Lying SOB that robbed my money.

vs.

Vendor X has a flaw in there product, and i would like to bring it to people's attention.

I like to applogize if i did the first situation, but i believe the second situation should always be at our disposal expecially if you own the product. :T

[Sadasius]

There is a difference between going OMFG vendor X is a Lying SOB that robbed my money.

vs.

Vendor X has a flaw in there product, and i would like to bring it to people's attention.

Option two is always the best. If we castrate the makers of our products from being able to talk with us then they will not be able to give the needed constructive criticism needed to have the parts we need or want. Having a good relationship with the vendors and manufacturers is always a plus. They want to make more money....Show them how!

[Martinm210]

okey no i agree with you guys.

There is a difference between going OMFG vendor X is a Lying SOB that robbed my money.

vs.

Vendor X has a flaw in there product, and i would like to bring it to people's attention.

I like to applogize if i did the first situation, but i believe the second situation should always be at our disposal expecially if you own the product. :T

I think you're spot on. We all want to hear when something goes wrong or quality of parts just isn't meeting our expectations, this is a great place to do that sort of thing. What we don't want is someone that has some sort of business partnership bashing competitors for personal gain.


Quality control and customer service are two areas that are really difficult if not impossible to include in any sort of review. Without the ability to share personal experiences in these two areas, we'd never really know how they are unless it happend to us individually.

I think it's good stuff as long as all the details are included to tell the whole story...and I think we've been doing pretty well with that.

[skinnee]

Sorry I was slow in my response to you NaeKuh. I am not saying that you have not been civil, social or nice. What spawned my response in the first place was seeing the lambasting other vendors have recieved and the "can of whoop ass" reference.

Gillbot and I came to the same conclusion, some vendors/manufacturers recieve are feedback when we approach them in a civil and respectful manner...others need some mud on their face before they will listen. But we cannot assume that all vendors/manufacturers need the mud thrown at them in order to recieve our feedback. We have to try to respectful and civilized route before resorting to other means of getting the point across and the right information in front of them. This is the same way I operate in day to day business. Sometimes you have to resort to other means for a company to take care of you as a customer, others appreciate your business enough to deal with you in the respectful manner. Again, we have to take the high road first each time we need to point out issues.

I'm not trying to single you out here NaeKuh, you just presented an example of the point I was trying to make. My apologies for using your statement as a means to make my point, but it was an ideal example.

[MomijiTMO]

I've been busy this week so I missed this thread. I do think some of us have taken brand loyalty to far and I just don't notice it any more.

[bigslappy]

Vendor X has a flaw in there product, and i would like to bring it to people's attention.

, but i believe the second situation should always be at our disposal expecially if you own the product. :T

If NaeKuh had not posted the Koolance thread I'd never would have checked my plugs for rust & they would still be doing damage to my systems
AND the fact that the fittings by Koolance that had the steel plugs in my systems were suggested to me as an issue solver that I had asked about on a thread about said issue, by a well known & long time "XS" member ( don't want to drop names here )
That is why we should post when a Vendor does not come clean with shoddy W/C'in products & out right lies about materials used to make the W/C'in parts .
.. I'm not upset at said member I'm upset at Koolance ,
but I've moved on to BETTER Vendors & now am one HAPPY Camper with what I've got ( if I can't get it then I mod/make it )