ViewSonic shows off 22-inch 120Hz LCD monitor at NVISION 08

[Final8ty]

this problem would vanish if it's 120hz<->120fps. the higher the refresh rate, the less mouselag you'll have. 85hz + vsync are fine for me regarding mouselag (which is almost not noticable), but anything lower than 85hz.... so 120hz would really kick ass...

+1 I forgot to add that.

[JohnZS]

*VA/S-IPS panel, or TN junk?

Yeah this better not be TN junk, I have had enough of the TN based LCDs already!
I want to see more IPS based LCD's...these have the potential of being good for gamers which reasonable image quality (I'm happy with my NEC 20WGX2 Pro)
Been looking for a 24" but they are either junky TN or huge input lag VA panels.

I really do hope that this Viewsonic 120Hz panel is the real deal and will end up being the LCD we have been waiting for since 2001.

John

[Helmore]

Yeah this better not be TN junk, I have had enough of the TN based LCDs already!
I want to see more IPS based LCD's...these have the potential of being good for gamers which reasonable image quality (I'm happy with my NEC 20WGX2 Pro)
Been looking for a 24" but they are either junky TN or huge input lag VA panels.

I really do hope that this Viewsonic 120Hz panel is the real deal and will end up being the LCD we have been waiting for since 2001.

John

My guess would be that it is a TN based panel, just because that would make it easier to make a 120Hz. LCD panel as TN panels have the lowest response times. A second reason for the use of a TN based panel would be to keep production costs down as TN panels are quite a bit cheaper than other panel types. It does give poorer image quality than other panels though, which is why I will probably not get this one.

Here is hoping though that this will spur other LCD manufacturers into making more of these proper 120Hz. displays, so that we will one day have 30" 10-bit 120Hz. LCD panels with something like BrightSide HDR technology. One can only dream of something like that, until OLED or something matures.

[natty]

i think the response time of non-TN panels is too slow to make a 120hz monitor

i think you need a time of less than 8ms BTW to avoid ghosting at 120hz

[XS2K]

Yeah this better not be TN junk, I have had enough of the TN based LCDs already!
I want to see more IPS based LCD's...these have the potential of being good for gamers which reasonable image quality (I'm happy with my NEC 20WGX2 Pro)
Been looking for a 24" but they are either junky TN or huge input lag VA panels.

I really do hope that this Viewsonic 120Hz panel is the real deal and will end up being the LCD we have been waiting for since 2001.

John

It will most probably be TN according to spec's in fact I bet it will be TN.
IPS are good-ish for gamers but they lack black quality and they do have some degree of input lag.

[YukonTrooper]

i think the response time of non-TN panels is too slow to make a 120hz monitor

i think you need a time of less than 8ms BTW to avoid ghosting at 120hz

They keep coming down and *VA based panels are starting to hit around 5ms. Response times should optimal by the time we see 120Hz monitors saturating the market.

[003]

I want to see more IPS based LCD's...these have the potential of being good for gamers which reasonable image quality (I'm happy with my NEC 20WGX2 Pro)
Been looking for a 24" but they are either junky TN or huge input lag VA panels.

I really do hope that this Viewsonic 120Hz panel is the real deal and will end up being the LCD we have been waiting for since 2001.

I can tell you right now, the LCD linked to in the OP won't be anything but TN. This is Viewsonic we're talking about after all. And I still don't believe it will be true 120Hz. No way a company goes from marketing overpriced gimmicks and junk to making the first 120Hz native LCD ever produced.

Oh and guys I hope you do not base response time based on the manufacturer rating. There is no set standard for measuring response time, and most manufactures use some kind of alternate measuring scale that makes the response time look lower than it actually is. Or they overvolt the panel to lower response time, but this causes evident smearing and snow. Yet others simply lie.

Viewsonic is not a company that can be taken at its word for their rated response time.

...Anyway enough about that. If you are looking for a 24" IPS based LCD, you are going to need to drop some cash, but they do exist. For example, the one I just got. An NEC LCD2490WUXiSV. It uses an H-IPS panel which is the successor to S-IPS. It improves on aperture ratio and gets rid of the "sparkly" look of S-IPS panels. It also has an A-TW polarizer which allows for very good black viewing angles and minimizes panel glow. 1920x1200 native.

The NEC also comes with a Gretag Macbeth colorimeter and the NEC SpectraView II software which is specifically designed for the NEC LCDxx90WUXi monitors (and a few others). Unlike normal calibration which is reliant on the video card and drivers, the monitors which are supported by SpectraView do their own internal calibration -- it is not reliant on drivers or the video card. Because of this it even stays consistent in games and such. The model I have is an 8-bit panel with a 12-bit LUT.

Calibrated with the Photo Editing setting, this monitor is absolutely insane. Especially the blacks -- which surprised me as it is an H-IPS panel. You have to see it to understand how good they are. Absolutely no backlight bleeding either. With the Photo Editing calibration, the contrast ratio is calibrated to 605:1 actual, and I thought that was rather low. Boy I was wrong. The difference between blacks and bright colors (such as HDR) is absolutely breathtaking for an LCD -- it far surpasses my old LG L2000C that had a contrast ratio of 1000:1, and had an S-IPS panel. If you can afford this monitor, it will be one of the best investments you make.

I notice no more ghosting or input delay than is present on typical TN "gaming" LCDs.

They keep coming down and *VA based panels are starting to hit around 5ms. Response times should optimal by the time we see 120Hz monitors saturating the market.

The issue with VA panels is not pixel response time (which affects ghosting), but rather actual input delay (think: the kind caused by v-sync, but to a lesser degree)

[XS2K]

Input lag is caused by the post-processing of the signal received from the video card that is why it is pressent in almoust all over-drive models atleast that is how I interpret it.

[YukonTrooper]

The issue with VA panels is not pixel response time (which affects ghosting), but rather actual input delay (think: the kind caused by v-sync, but to a lesser degree)

120Hz does not require low input lag. Input lag is simply from the processing of the image. They could have an input lag of 1000ms but still process it at 120Hz.

[003]

120Hz does not require low input lag. Input lag is simply from the processing of the image. They could have an input lag of 1000ms but still process it at 120Hz.

I know that. But having high input lag basically negates any benefits of 120Hz or fast response time, IMO at least. If the mouse is not moving in synchronization with your hand, it is unusable in games.

[Bo_Fox]

For the absolute fastest lag-free output, it's ideal to play on a CRT at a higher refresh rate than the max. frames per second that the game is capped at, with vsync disabled (if the tearing is not too bad). For example, enabling vsync at 90 Hz would incur a penalty of approx. 11ms lag. Not too shabby, though..., compared to the usual 50-100ms lag of online play.

For single-player games that are not so dependent upon absolute fastest response times, the input lag of LCD's do not matter that much. It only bothers me in racing games, and of course online fragfests. What puzzles me is that when games add "motion blur", it appears redundant since most LCD's have bad enough ghosting that it looks like "built-in" motion blur (which is awful for fast-paced online games).

Triple buffering is only recommended if response times are not that important. At 60Hz, triple buffering would incur a full 32ms penalty. If your LCD already has a 50ms input lag penalty, add triple buffering to that for a total of 82ms lag. If you have a wireless keyboard/mouse, that would add 10ms or more depending on the polling rate and the receiver itself.

When I play to pwn, my refresh is set at 90Hz on my CRT, with the game capped at 85fps--and it usually stays at sustained 85fps, with vsync disabled. The tearing is barely noticeable--I'm quite used to it anyways. It's nowhere as bad as if the frame rates were at like 300fps with the refresh at only 60Hz or something like that (like doing a 3DMark2001 run).

One more thing.. CRT's also display ghosting when the contrast is turned all the way up. However, it's only relative to very bright lights against a dark background. It's very minor compared to a much bigger ghosting problem found on most LCD's nowadays. The "response time" on LCD's is all about the ghosting problem--when overdrive tries to get rid of that, it does not do it well enough many times. Sometimes, it's overly adjusted (like a droop). And the buffering time required to do the adjusting for overdrive is what makes the input lag so bad. Those online gamers pay the price, as LCD manufacturers only care about reducing the "response time" since most noob gamers think that's the solution. Overdrive does improve the IQ to a degree but what about the "ping" time that matters so much? Pathetic. We gamers really do need to voice out our concerns more for a specific product to meet our needs.

[JohnZS]

Damn so this LCD is going to be TN

Anyway I know you guys are not fans of Viewsonic but back in the day, they did make ONE really good LCD....the VP191b, it wasn't bad and at the time was the best general purpose 19" LCD (as practically all others were TN or high response VA panels). The VP930 was not too bad either but then Viewsonic started to milk the money cow and churn out 1000's of TN based screens that were utter dross.

I can tell you right now, the LCD linked to in the OP won't be anything but TN. This is Viewsonic we're talking about after all. And I still don't believe it will be true 120Hz. No way a company goes from marketing overpriced gimmicks and junk to making the first 120Hz native LCD ever produced.

Oh and guys I hope you do not base response time based on the manufacturer rating. There is no set standard for measuring response time, and most manufactures use some kind of alternate measuring scale that makes the response time look lower than it actually is. Or they overvolt the panel to lower response time, but this causes evident smearing and snow. Yet others simply lie.

Viewsonic is not a company that can be taken at its word for their rated response time.

...Anyway enough about that. If you are looking for a 24" IPS based LCD, you are going to need to drop some cash, but they do exist. For example, the one I just got. An NEC LCD2490WUXiSV. It uses an H-IPS panel which is the successor to S-IPS. It improves on aperture ratio and gets rid of the "sparkly" look of S-IPS panels. It also has an A-TW polarizer which allows for very good black viewing angles and minimizes panel glow. 1920x1200 native.

The NEC also comes with a Gretag Macbeth colorimeter and the NEC SpectraView II software which is specifically designed for the NEC LCDxx90WUXi monitors (and a few others). Unlike normal calibration which is reliant on the video card and drivers, the monitors which are supported by SpectraView do their own internal calibration -- it is not reliant on drivers or the video card. Because of this it even stays consistent in games and such. The model I have is an 8-bit panel with a 12-bit LUT.

Calibrated with the Photo Editing setting, this monitor is absolutely insane. Especially the blacks -- which surprised me as it is an H-IPS panel. You have to see it to understand how good they are. Absolutely no backlight bleeding either. With the Photo Editing calibration, the contrast ratio is calibrated to 605:1 actual, and I thought that was rather low. Boy I was wrong. The difference between blacks and bright colors (such as HDR) is absolutely breathtaking for an LCD -- it far surpasses my old LG L2000C that had a contrast ratio of 1000:1, and had an S-IPS panel. If you can afford this monitor, it will be one of the best investments you make.

I notice no more ghosting or input delay than is present on typical TN "gaming" LCDs.

The issue with VA panels is not pixel response time (which affects ghosting), but rather actual input delay (think: the kind caused by v-sync, but to a lesser degree)

Thanks for the suggestion 003, I shall keep my eyes open for this NEC monitor as I am really fond of my current 20WGX2 Pro, however I have heard rumours that the 24" 2490 is not being shipped in Europe

Oh well here is hoping the 120Hz technology drifts over to IPS!
John

[natty]

any news?

[natty]

any news?

still nothing?

[YMAA]

I wonder if it will crap out 4 times in 3 years and right after warranty expires like my $1300 VP201s did. That would be a nice feature

QFT. My VX2025wm's DVI port died a while ago and when I called Viewsonic to request an RMA they told me that because it was more than a year old they only do repairs, not RMAs. So I was up sh*t creek at school with a non-functional monitor. Convinced me to order an E247WFP from Dell and send the Viewsonic back to be fixed, then sell the Viewsonic once I get it back.

Never buying another Viewsonic again if I can help it.

[Jamesrt2004]

Zombieeee threeeeeaadddddddddddd

[adamsleath]

Sigh if people wouldn't have accepted LCDs so well, perhaps we'd have some better tech today already...

it was the manufacturer's decision, not the pubic. imo
ive got 2 crt's: the philips is good, but the diamond digital is pretty dim unfortunately.

if i get any probs with either of my crts im going tn panel with low input lag/ response time.

[Think]

GeForce Stereoscopic 3D technology

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Now there trying to proprietor monitors per graphic company? What next - Geforce gaming mice?

[biohead]

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Now there trying to proprietor monitors per graphic company? What next - Geforce gaming mice?

I'd like to SLI my mouse buttons, and have Fatal1ty sign it.

[oohms]

QFT. My VX2025wm's DVI port died a while ago and when I called Viewsonic to request an RMA they told me that because it was more than a year old they only do repairs, not RMAs. So I was up sh*t creek at school with a non-functional monitor. Convinced me to order an E247WFP from Dell and send the Viewsonic back to be fixed, then sell the Viewsonic once I get it back.

Never buying another Viewsonic again if I can help it.

I have the same problem with the same monitor... but its not worth RMA'ing since its a design fault. But using it with the vga connector is still better than using any of my other TN panels, even for gaming

[MrToad]

I have the same problem with the same monitor... but its not worth RMA'ing since its a design fault. But using it with the vga connector is still better than using any of my other TN panels, even for gaming

I have the same monitor. Every time the DVI connector goes "dumb", I turn it off, I unplug all the cables (including power), press the power button, watch the green led go off (as the capacitors discharge), plug everything back, switch it on and... presto! DVI working again.

Same trick works with a Samsung monitor at work.

[chew*]

Fwiw the reason most gamers don't use LCD's is ghosting, which is not directly tied to refresh rates, more so response time. Would be very interested to see ghosting tests performed on this monitor.

I use an LCD for gaming and have learned to compensate if you will for ghosting, namely I need to aim ahead of my targets head, would be nice to be able to aim at a target again and not air.

[RPGWiZaRD]

I don't avoid LCDs because of ghosting, even a cheap 4ms TN LG panel had perfectly fast enough responses IMO but what I miss is the 100 fps gaming for some games why I'm sticking to my CRT.

I'm gonna quote an excellent answer I saw on another forum when discussing this monitor which fully explains my own thoughts about refresh rate:

@ Aug 28th 2008 2:25AM

Gamers use crt's because of their high refresh rate as well as perfect resolution scaling. Especially for Fast paced first person shooters, such as quake 3 arena cpma, or even counter-strike 1.6 the high refresh rates coupled with the high frame rates (over 100fps for quake ,100 constant for cs1.6) provide the best Scene Production(fluidity of frames), not just image quality. With vsync off, high refresh rates guarantee that you get a chance to process every frame of the 100 in that second and ensures there are minimal frame cuts. Enabling Vsync with high refresh rate will not only eliminate the problem of frame cutting, but also minimize the delay of waiting for the screen to refresh (60hz with vsync on will introduce a laggy feel, input lag some would say, but since more refresh would mean more updates of the screen per second, the delay is reduced until almost nothing once the refresh rate is very high)


No, that is not true the human eye can tell the difference. There is no such thing as "fps" to our eyes.
"The Human Eye perceives information continuously, we do not perceive the world through frames. You could say we perceive the external visual world through streams, and only lose it when our eyes blink." http://amo.net/NT/02-21-01FPS.html
It depends on a individuals conscious ability to "perceive", which requires manual processing from the brain, the world is still streaming into our eyes. There are a few special people in the world who have the ability to accurately reproduce an image from very quick motions. Normal people can still perceive high refresh rates but may not have the cognitive ability to extract single images from a motion, but they certainly can see fluidity of motion, which is what refresh rate affects.
You can in fact distinguish 60hz and 120hz or almost any refresh rate for that matter. However, it depends on what "distinguishing means" If it means to perceive every frame individually like in a slide show then around 30hz-60hz would be quick enough to allow perceived motion. (It still depends on what source the image is from, CRT's phosphor glow creates a persistence effect in the eye so that part of an image will stay long enough for the entire frame to be drawn) Distinguishing fluidity of motion, on the other hand, is much different:
The real world around us provides "infinite" fps (really though, no such thing as fps )
All our display technologies are FAR from what real life can provide.
Rendering, Recording, and Display technologies all work upon the same principle of sampling at specific intervals of time.
http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/archive/TempRate.mspx (scroll to "Flat-panel displays have a sample-and-hold characteristic")

"All of the newer display technologies such as LCD, plasma, DLP, and so on, have essentially a sample-and-hold characteristic. When a pixel is addressed, it is loaded with a value and stays at that light output value until it is next addressed. From an image portrayal point of view, this is the wrong thing to do. The sample of the original scene is ONLY VALID FOR AN INSTANT IN TIME. After that instant, the objects in the scene will have moved to DIFFERENT places. It is not valid to try to hold the images of the objects at a fixed position until the next sample comes along that portrays the object as having instantly jumped to a completely different place.

Your eye tracking will be trying to smoothly follow the movement of the object of interest and the display will be holding it in a fixed position for the whole frame. The result will inevitably be a blurred image of the moving object."

"Leaving aside the temporal rate conversion difficulties, displays with a sample-and-hold characteristic, such as LCD and plasma, would PRODUCE BETTER MOTION PORTRAYAL if operated at rates ABOVE 60Hz. Flat panels are normally run at 60Hz, because it is PERCEIVED that this is all you need to do since there is no flicker problem. The REALITY is that a faster update rate would be beneficial in order to reduce the blurring effect associated with the sample-and-hold characteristic. Pixels with a sample-and-hold characteristic effectively extend what should have been an instantaneous sample into a constant value that lasts for a whole frame. The result of this is motion smearing. This smearing is reduced if you can update the sample and hold circuits more often with new sample values."

The problem is that real life gives us infinite fps so only by approaching infinite fps or a very very high fps can realistic perceived motion be achieved. Sure at 60 fps we can see that it's motion but compared to 120 fps, it's much less smooth.

Oh and while i'm at it, response time:
Most of the manufacture quoted response times are false, I don't feel like getting into that but the only review website that reviews monitors scientifically by measuring response times is xbitlabs.
They also measure real contrast ratios,brightness, color gamuts and backlight uniformity.
As for response time I am amazed that it can vary so differently depending on what grays are changing to what other grays.. namely somewhere around 256 different response times.. check it out..
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/mon...inch-12_2.html

Just to note:
I also am very glad that my laptops can be set way over 60hz. Thank you LVDS Signaling! I enjoy the smoothest video from my games.
the way laptops interface with the monitor allows manual configuration of timings unlike Desktop monitors which are already using a lcd controller that interfaces with DVI to your graphics card. Subsequently, it will not allow as much flexibility (>75hz refresh rate)
It seems that it works with most modern laptops with nvidia graphics cards, some ati if you use powerstrip
Toshiba satellite 1805-s254 xga 13.3" Trident Cyberblade xp Ai1: 94.8hz @ 1024x768
Toshiba Tecra m3 xga 14.1" geforce go 6200-6600: 100hz @ 1024x768 (more introduces occasional sync loss that causes "flickering")
Asus V6J sxga+ 15.1" geforce go 7400: 100hz @ 1400x1050 (can handle up to ~150hz but with major color distortion)
IBM thinkpad T61p nvidia quadro 570m sxga+ 14.1": 150 @ 1400x1050 (At this refresh rate, there are very very feint yellow lines on very dark colors, black etc)
google for "100 hz refresh rate v6j" first link.

this 120hz from these tv manufacturers are getting on my nerves.. i want my real refresh rate..

^ I believe this is the #1 reason there are many anxious gamers waiting for this 120Hz LCD to be released if it's indeed an improvement to motion smoothness if playing games above 60 FPS as it might finally bring CRT motion smoothness to LCD tech. That remains to be seen though...

[halo112358]

Many argues a person cannot see above "x" FPS anyways but AFAIK there's no real answer to that and probably varies a bit from person to person. I honestly after a lot of testing know I can see a difference up to around 100Hz, between 120 and 100Hz I see no noticable difference anymore.

120Hz should also be a good addon if talking about tearing, more games could be run with vsync off I suppose.

I'm with you on that, I can distinguish up to ~100fps pretty easily but above that I can't tell any more.

Here's something interesting, if you're just watching a game can you see anything above ~60? The only way I can tell is how the game responds. I've been trained that ~100fps is "normal" by all the fps games I've played over the years, anything that *ever* dips below 60 makes me perceive the game to be running "choppily." I guess I'm spoiled, lol.

[Hoboclese]

i have a flat screen TV that is 120 HZ but it isn't LCD or plasma its an older one so its still got a tube. Would that work like a 120 HZ monitor hooked up to my computer?

and yes when we first got it, it made everything look fake in movies and on normal TV. took a while to adjust