Apogee GTZ

[71 (Bryan)]

he doesn't owe us anything, srry for sounding negative in my last post, that wasnt my intention, but it seems that he only came for a short time just to create some hype

[gabe]

That was his goal. Come here get you excited with a false release date, your mouth starts watering, then you start jonesing for his block. It's called marketing my friend.

I can assure you that this is an entirely wrong assumption. In fact, I will be able to prove it thru independant third party testimonial soon.

[71 (Bryan)]

The tester either feels an obligation to post beneficial results or you choose the results that benefit your product.

imo if you give one to martin he will not be baised, we all know him well enough that he will tell us the truth and nothing but the truth

[Movieman]

I've been in marketing and sales for 12 years, no company I've worked for had less than $50 mill in annual sales. All were and still are closely held private companies. That statement was not meant to flame, only point out the obvious, to the non-marketing types on this forum. You clearly stated and the beginning of this thread that you were coming here like your competitors, to announce a "new" design of yours. That, my friend Is called marketing major props on the hype you created

As far as independent testing goes, if you provided the tester with a sample, whether or not they could keep it, then the test is biased.

The tester either feels an obligation to post beneficial results or you choose the results that benefit your product. An independent test will be when people buy the block themselves and test it, no bias that way. I'm buying one of your blocks, whenever it's released, and will have a third party test it against the EK Supreme and FuZion v2. Out of my own pocket, then I'll know the true results for myself.

I really like your design, a melding of the Supreme and FuZion, very nice.....

BTW, can you fit BP 1/2" x 3/4" compressions on the GTZ?

Reading your comments I don't know how you could be happy or assured with anyones results.
If you pay a third party then by your own logic he would want to satisfy you so that you would bring him additional business.

Gentlemen: Where has trust gone?
Has anyone ever seen this man lie to us?
Date's on products being available can and do change.
Bringing a product to market is a HUGE undertaking.
The design,manufacturer,testing, packaging and then getting your outlets up to speed on the item. All of these areas pose the potential for issues to arise and delay the proposed dates of release.
It bothers me to see any company rep on this forum treated as if he/she is lying to us even if the words are veiled.
Every one of these people and every member here is entitled to courtesy and respect. Ask the questions yes, but in a way that there is no veiled sarcasm or discourtesy. We may be an outlet for their products and that is the business end but I assure you, it is they doing us the favor by coming here and I doubt the money they make from just what is read here would either make or break their businesses.
What I'm trying to say is before you post, take the time to read that post to yourself and try to see it as if your the person it's addressed to.

[sirheck]

I've been in marketing and sales for 12 years, no company I've worked for had less than $50 mill in annual sales. All were and still are closely held private companies. That statement was not meant to flame, only point out the obivous, to the non-marketing types on this forum. You clearly stated and the begining of this thread that you were coming here like your competitors, to announce a "new" design of yours. That, my friend Is called marketing major props on the hype you created

As far as independent testing goes, if you provided the tester with a sample, whether or notthey could keep it, then the test is biased.

The tester either feels an obligation to post beneficial results or you choose the results that benefit your product. An independent test will be when people buy the block themselves and test it, no bias that way. I'm buying one of your blocks, whenever it's released, and will have a third partytest it against the EK Supreme and FuZion v2. Out of my own pocket, then I'll know the true results for myself.

I really like your design, a melding of the Supreme and FuZion, very nice.....

BTW, can you fit BP 1/2" x 3/4" compressions on the GTZ?

I would like to see some of your test/results.

And not TC PA120.3 or any EK FTW!!!!!!!!! shistuff.

Thing you need to understand besides saying or or FTW!!!
all the time is, how about some basic results from your personal experience
with whatever hardware you use.

What is and isnt good.

The more users here or at any other forum who post their experiences
is what desides what products are up to the task.

[skinnee]

As far as independent testing goes, if you provided the tester with a sample, whether or notthey could keep it, then the test is biased.

The tester either feels an obligation to post beneficial results or you choose the results that benefit your product. An independent test will be when people buy the block themselves and test it, no bias that way. I'm buying one of your blocks, whenever it's released, and will have a third partytest it against the EK Supreme and FuZion v2. Out of my own pocket, then I'll know the true results for myself.

RRR, here is a point we disagree on. As someone who is just starting out in the independent testing/review arena I cannot speak on experience of testing WC gear, but I can draw from my ethics and work experience.

Being an independent tester, you work for the community not a vendor or manufacturer. You have to test that particular product in the same manner you have tested all others of the same type in order to draw a comparison and build the historical data. As an independent tester it is a requirement that you be fair and equal to all products and tests, regardless of how the specific product arrived on your test bench. All of the gear I will be using for testing is funded by me (and my wife) presently. Now if my tests and data that I present to the community means companies would like to send me a sample for testing, thats great...but the data cannot be fudged, that is the only way you will earn the respect of the community. And if the numbers are tweaked for the specific company, others in the community will bust you on it and there goes your credibility and trust you spent all that time and money building.

BTW, can you fit BP 1/2" x 3/4" compressions on the GTZ?

And this is a perfect example of something an independent tester/reviewer would be able to tell you!

[gabe]

1c or 2c either way, who gives a anymore.
andyc

huh, how about we do ?

I don't think you really meant it that way

There is passion in what we do; that passion derives from our competitive spirit. The minute we stop competing and pushing ourselves to the limit, we just .. decay ?

[sirheck]

huh, how about we do ?

I don't think you really meant it that way

There is passion in what we do; that passion derives from our competitive spirit. The minute we stop competing and pushing ourselves to the limit, we just .. decay ?

I have the all in one pump/cpu block plus a D-tek v2 and mc350 pump.
Have ran both of them on the same Q66 plus 88gtx.

I dont see much difference in tempuratures.

I like them both.

[sirheck]

Yeah,

In regards to tester miss representing data or testing. Why would anyone miss represent 1 or 2 c. Not worth it in the long run, or short for that matter.

andyc

I always figure around 1c or 2 to 3f to be the tolerance.
Most everything has a certain tolerance.

So yeah i dont really worry about an extra 1c or 100mhz.

[Martinm210]

Martin PM me your email address plz, you apparently are not accepting PM's...

You have PM..

I think we could definitely do that.

Thanks Gabe!

Everytime I do a new set of testing, I'm always trying to learn from the previous round. I think this next round I'm going to follow nicksub1's 5 mount method again, but I'm also going to add in testing with two levels of pumping power to see if there is any worthwhile gains with than, and also see if there is any ranking reversals with the different pumping powers.

Obviously we're not going to have access to the high quality equipement that you do, but it might give us an idea where we can improve our own methods.

[nikhsub1]

You have PM..




Thanks Gabe!

Everytime I do a new set of testing, I'm always trying to learn from the previous round. I think this next round I'm going to follow nicksub1's 5 mount method again, but I'm also going to add in testing with two levels of pumping power to see if there is any worthwhile gains with than, and also see if there is any ranking reversals with the different pumping powers.

Obviously we're not going to have access to the high quality equipement that you do, but it might give us an idea where we can improve our own methods.

Martin, unless you can keep the coolant at a CONSTANT temperature, testing with more/less pumps skews things. I tried this, with the RD-30 at 18v and then at 24v. All I got was higher readings at 24v due to the additional heat dump... you know that pumps dump less heat the more loaded down they are (more restriction). So naturally, without a chiller to keep the coolant at a constant more restrictive blocks will have an unfair advantage right off the bat. The only way to fly is with a chiller and a way to vary flowrate. Swiftech has such a setup.

And RRR for you to say that testers are biased if the MFGR gives the tester a block is just asinine. With that said, there is not one test or tester out there that you approve of. Sometimes you should learn to keep your mouth shut.

[IanY]

Sometimes you should learn to keep your mouth shut.

Woah... Regardless of whom you are addressing, and regardless of your social standing, status or whatever, in reality, perceived or otherwise, relax on the down talking! Nobody has the journalistic license to be rude, and there are many reasons not to be degrading, not least of which are the playground rules!

Can we please have a joint devoid of egos and elitism?

[Whokidmo]

And RRR for you to say that testers are biased if the MFGR gives the tester a block is just asinine. With that said, there is not one test or tester out there that you approve of. Sometimes you should learn to keep your mouth shut.

i wasn't going to get into this but if you want to get into argumentative clauses i can... u say RRR cant prove his point... well the same goes for yours... no testimony can prove to me that the person isn't lying... dont be offended by his opinion... theres people out there in the world that think like that... dont tell them to keep there mouth shut... learn how to prove your point or reach a middle ground or learn to agree to disagree... but if u ever tell someone to do that i'll put down each one of ur points peice by peice... and u thought the people that made Donnie27 and Shintai look like idiots were ... just wait...

[Martinm210]

Martin, unless you can keep the coolant at a CONSTANT temperature, testing with more/less pumps skews things. I tried this, with the RD-30 at 18v and then at 24v. All I got was higher readings at 24v due to the additional heat dump... you know that pumps dump less heat the more loaded down they are (more restriction). So naturally, without a chiller to keep the coolant at a constant more restrictive blocks will have an unfair advantage right off the bat.

Yeah, maybe what I should do is just more of a simple water delta vs flow rate. I've got two running inline right now and tinkering with a different setup. Alot of it depends on the heat dump of the pump, but I've always been curious about reports of gains with stronger pumps so I want to try it and see even if as expected I get nothing in the end.

This is what I've got going now, the rad is on the rad bench so I can closely monitor air in, air out, and I've got two probes measuring the water leaving the radiator and entering the CPU block, so that should be a good number. In addition I have my flow rate meter plumbed in for the test and to make life a little easier some globe valves near the CPU block for a little less painful block switching.





Let's just say duall DDCs with tops on an extremely free flowing parts is a little overkill at 3.5GPM even with some extra restriction from the flow meter and valves...lol!


Oh, and only the highest quality Wal-mart "Great Value" distilled water at the task this time around.

[eXa]

Martin, unless you can keep the coolant at a CONSTANT temperature, testing with more/less pumps skews things. I tried this, with the RD-30 at 18v and then at 24v. All I got was higher readings at 24v due to the additional heat dump... you know that pumps dump less heat the more loaded down they are (more restriction). So naturally, without a chiller to keep the coolant at a constant more restrictive blocks will have an unfair advantage right off the bat. The only way to fly is with a chiller and a way to vary flowrate. Swiftech has such a setup.

And RRR for you to say that testers are biased if the MFGR gives the tester a block is just asinine. With that said, there is not one test or tester out there that you approve of. Sometimes you should learn to keep your mouth shut.

Hmm interresting. A small conclusion form that is that its no point in going from 18v to 24v on the RD-30 since the added heatdump outdo the gain from the higher flow....

[migueld]

It's a freaking hobby for goodness sake. 1c or 2c either way, who gives a anymore
andyc

Agreed. However, manufacturers will care about it; if they can claim that their block is 0.5C better than somebody else's then they'll use that to market their products. It's up to the user to evaluate the worthiness of such specs. Personally I don't care if there is a 3C difference in a wb. I care much less about 1-2C, especially for the fact that simple ambient temps can fluctuate that kind of range easily.

[C'DaleRider]

I've been in marketing and sales for 12 years, no company I've worked for had less than $50 mill in annual sales. All were and still are closely held private companies. That statement was not meant to flame, only point out the obivous, to the non-marketing types on this forum. You clearly stated and the begining of this thread that you were coming here like your competitors, to announce a "new" design of yours. That, my friend Is called marketing major props on the hype you created

WOW, a whole $55M in yearly sales? Impressive......well, our lone plant does that in less than 4 months, but not trying to upstage you. The company I've worked for the last 12 years has yearly sales in the $6B range.....and I think your boasting about a pitiful bunch of small companies and their pitiful amount of sales is just showing your infantile attitude once again. I'd think there are any numbers of members here who have or do work for companies that dwarf anywhere/anyone you've ever hoped to work for, yet they don't boast about it. Grow up.

[voigts]

I personally don't doubt that there are reviewers with a particular bias towards some companies. Take for example some of the ridiculous reviews on other sites you read about how wonderful Thermaltake kits are and how great Koolance products are. Wasn't there a review linked to here recently on youtube where the guy was wearing a Dtek shirt but was supposed to be giving an "unbiased" review?

I think honestly however that the kind of people that do reviews here on XS aren't taking hours upon hours of their time and personal money on equipment to stroke one manufacturer or another. If a reputable manufacturer like Swiftech were to send samples of products to independent testers, it would be in their best interest to know that the tester will tell and publish the truth, regardless of what they find. A company doesn't build a business in this small niche market based on one product or review. They build a business by the quality and types of products they put out over time. Its not like there is such a great watercooling following that companies can afford to mess with the consumers by purposely skewing reviews and it not come back to bite them.

A company like Swiftech isn't some giant like Walmart with a huge market. They cater to a relatively small consumer pool, as do the other watercooling manufacturers.

[IanY]

WOW, a whole $55M in yearly sales? Impressive......well, our lone plant does that in less than 4 months, but not trying to upstage you. The company I've worked for the last 12 years has yearly sales in the $6B range.....and I think your boasting about a pitiful bunch of small companies and their pitiful amount of sales is just showing your infantile attitude once again. I'd think there are any numbers of members here who have or do work for companies that dwarf anywhere/anyone you've ever hoped to work for, yet they don't boast about it. Grow up.

Wow.. go easy there. I work for a company with $161 B in revenues, but so what? I'm about to lose my job lol

I know you don't like the guy, but please don't attack him. Lay off the insults. Its not kosher around here.