ATI Radeon HD 4000 Series discussion

[Afterburner]

damn.....i'm almost sold

[003]

Latest news is that it has been confirmed, 4850 and 4870 have 800 SPs:
http://www.nordichardware.com/news,7841.html

[zerazax]

Yep been posted

And it was in an article somewhere from some engineer on the R600 project but basically he stated that R600 ALU's are cheap in transistor count

And I certainly echo the possibility that TMU's reach a point of diminishing returns I feel like. While G92 was heavily bandwidth limited, its doubled TMU count over G80 didn't give it any considerable advantage, even with clock advantages. Heck, the G80 GTX and Ultra do just fine with the 32/64 ratio compared to the 64/64 on G92.

Nvidia's seems to certainly have bet years ago that texture units would be a big concern (seeing as how they increased them greatly from G80 to G92 to GT200) and maybe less shader intensive whereas ATI believed shaders would rule the day and textures wouldn't be as big a concern. We'll certainly see soon though

[perkam]

I am not believing all this just yet, but I would love to ATI pull an R300 out of the bag with the GTX going the way of the 5900

I do doubt the 800 SP rumours because 800SPs increases the die size dramatically, and since the process is the same as the 3870, we know that doubling the TMUs and more than doubling the SPs would be next to impossible without having a gigantic diagonal 90nm R600 size die:



As we have already seen the Rv770 die size and we know that the die size is only 50% larger, the 50% more SP theory (480 SPs) sounds more practical.

Those are my 0.02.

Perkam

[Papu]

that looks more like 10 yen

[y2kbos]

What would the SP's be doing anyway?

Werent there rumurs that the extra 320SPs would only do Physx, not giving extra graphical power

[cadaveca]

As we have already seen the Rv770 die size and we know that the die size is only 50% larger, the 50% more SP theory (480 SPs) sounds more practical.

Those are my 0.02.

Perkam

You've not been posting much lately, so I understand.

but Perkam......







Here, you can have them back....


SP's alone to not make a gpu. ROPs, TMUs, cache, memory interface, and any other logic also account for die space. Since we are talking ati cards here, lets add in UVD/HDMI functionality, etc...doubling SP's @ 50% die increase seems more than reasonable to me.

I mean really, how else is R770 different from R670?

[Extelleron]

I am not believing all this just yet, but I would love to ATI pull an R300 out of the bag with the GTX going the way of the 5900

I do doubt the 800 SP rumours because 800SPs increases the die size dramatically, and since the process is the same as the 3870, we know that doubling the TMUs and more than doubling the SPs would be next to impossible without having a gigantic diagonal 90nm R600 size die:



As we have already seen the Rv770 die size and we know that the die size is only 50% larger, the 50% more SP theory (480 SPs) sounds more practical.

Those are my 0.02.

Perkam

As I've shown before, die size & processing resources do not scale linearly at all.

Case in point, RV635 (55nm/118mm^2) -> RV670 (55nm/192mm^2)

ATI fits 2.66x SPs, 2x TMUs, 4x ROPs, increased cache, plus twice internal ring bus size (512-bit vs 256-bit) in a die only 63% larger.

So it is not unlikely they can fit 2.5x SPs/2x TMUs, with all else the same, in a die 34% larger.

Comparing RV620 & RV670 just exaggerates the point.

RV670 is approximately ~3x RV620 and it features 8x SPs / 4x TMUs / 4x ROPs / 4x ringbus (512-bit vs 128-bit) / vastly more complex cache structure.

[eric66]

does anybody know anything about 3950 ?

[perkam]

You've not been posting much lately, so I understand.

but Perkam......







Here, you can have them back....


SP's alone to not make a gpu. ROPs, TMUs, cache, memory interface, and any other logic also account for die space. Since we are talking ati cards here, lets add in UVD/HDMI functionality, etc...doubling SP's @ 50% die increase seems more than reasonable to me.

I mean really, how else is R770 different from R670?

lol well if it isn't ol' Cadaveca

What happened to your avvy with your old case in it

Anyhoo, they have also added 32 TMUs, and though your point is valid, 800 SPs is generally believed to be overkill unless SP efficiency is REALLY bad and they need to do it just to increase performance by significant amount.

As for your point about "what difference is there between 3870 and 4870 if they do that", take a look at the prices, they are almost identical to 3870 and 3850 prices at launch. If they really wanted to launch a 800 SP monster, they would have put the price similar to the GTX 260 at $449 and not $329 and $229. We have heard news that the reason for the low 4850 clock was because ATI does not want the 4850 to beat the 3870 by a large amount otherwise no one would buy the 3870 and that makes sense.

I just don't think ATI can put 800SPs on the same 55nm architecture as the 3800 series.

Perkam

[Extelleron]

does anybody know anything about 3950 ?

The Gigabyte placeholders are pretty much the only thing we have seen of the HD 3950.

It's most likely a RV670-based part with higher clocks than the HD 3870. I suppose it could be a chopped-down RV770 part, but I doubt it would be considering it is a HD 3000-series part.

[cadaveca]

lol well if it isn't ol' Cadaveca

What happened to your avvy with your old case in it

Life is easier being a nobody than a somebody.

Anyhoo, they have also added 32 TMUs, and though your point is valid, 800 SPs is generally believed to be overkill unless SP efficiency is REALLY bad and they need to do it just to increase performance by significant amount.

As for your point about "what difference is there between 3870 and 4870 if they do that", take a look at the prices, they are almost identical to 3870 and 3850 prices at launch. If they really wanted to launch a 800 SP monster, they would have put the price similar to the GTX 260 at $449 and not $329 and $229. We have heard news that the reason for the low 4850 clock was because ATI does not want the 4850 to beat the 3870 by a large amount otherwise no one would buy the 3870 and that makes sense.

I just don't think ATI can put 800SPs on the same 55nm architecture as the 3800 series.

Perkam

You are missing the point. That die increase has to account for something. TMU's? you mean more cache?


Ok, so we have accounted for 10%-12% of the extra 50%, were's the remaining 38%-40%?

What else in R770 can account for that very large transitor count? 666m transistors increased to 1b transistors...why?





Cost is not something to be considered. We are still living out ATI's legacy...AMD products are not here yet in ATI line-up. This is not ATI anymore, Perkam, so old price models definately do not apply here. I mean really...3870x2 was top-level card...old ATI management would have never made such a silly move...you must rethink strategy here.

[perkam]

Well I'm all for it Cadaveca, and I hope you're right...it's just not easy being optimistic about the best case scenario

In other news, HD 4870 or this...hmmm...decisions decisions

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814102723

Perkam

[cadaveca]

lol. Exactly how it has always been...tried to buy an X850XTCrossfire, x1900XTX or x1950 Crossfire master card, or say 2900XT 1GB? New? You'll pay about the same price.

It's called retirement...

[Kingcarcas]

Maybe you're right, i always assumed 800SP was BS because of the $300 price point, if it isn't then i hope ATI owns Nvidia in the mainstream market Everyone else can have their inefficient expensive GPUs.

[conzymaher]

Come on 800SPs!!!!!!

I cant afford a GTX 260! So I (and probably the majority of enthusiasts ) will be buying in the 200-250 euro range

[NH|Delph1]

I feel a bit stupid trying to tone down the importance of my own news report, but here goes:

Does it really matter if it has 480, 800 or six gazillion shader processors when the only thing that matters is the number of frames per second you will get?

You have Vantage scores (don't go by the ones I posted, I barely trust those myself) and they are certainly good for a mainstream card, and I can certainly tell you that the current drivers suck in Vantage.

//Andreas

[y2kbos]

Come on 800SPs!!!!!!

I cant afford a GTX 260! So I (and probably the majority of enthusiasts ) will be buying in the 200-250 euro range

You will get what you pay for ( 2 year old high end performance ), which will be much slower than the GTX260..

Anyone on a decent card like a 8800gts 640mb, 8800gt etc, would be a bit crazy to get a card that will only give a few extra fps in Crysis..

[Papu]

You will get what you pay for ( 2 year old high end performance ), which will be much slower than the GTX260..

Anyone on a decent card like a 8800gts 640mb, 8800gt etc, would be a bit crazy to get a card that will only give a few extra fps in Crysis..

hmm once you've played crysis you move on you know? people want whats best , and bang for buck , heat output/ energy usage and features , like dx10.1?

[zerazax]

Lol wait for actual numbers before you actually start comparing these cards to cards of yesteryear

And not everyone has an 8800 yet - people with 6800's, 7900's etc. will certainly receive a huge boost

[conzymaher]

You will get what you pay for ( 2 year old high end performance ), which will be much slower than the GTX260..

Anyone on a decent card like a 8800gts 640mb, 8800gt etc, would be a bit crazy to get a card that will only give a few extra fps in Crysis..

I found an Nvidia fanboy! Do i get a prize?

What about the people who currently dont have a Graphics card and are building a new rig? The 4870 is going to be considerably cheaper than the GTX 260 and it will perform a hell of a lot better than the G92 8800gts (the next best bang for buck option)

[y2kbos]

hmm once you've played crysis you move on you know? people want whats best , and bang for buck , heat output/ energy usage and features , like dx10.1?

Best?

If you have an 8800gt/ 8800gts 640mb or similar, what is the point in getting a HD4870 when its only going to be as fast as an 8800gtx...

Energy usage/ heat will be similar to previous cards mid/high range cards you are upgrading from, dx 10 isnt even mainstream yet, let alone dx 10.1 ( nvidia's high end doesnt have it )

[cadaveca]

Does it really matter if it has 480, 800 or six gazillion shader processors when the only thing that matters is the number of frames per second you will get?

Well, to be honest, it does matter when shaders not only do vertex or shader processing....geometry processing...

Anyway, R670 has 64 pipelines. Each pipe has 4 simple processors, and one complex processor. 320 total shaders, but only 64 really signifigant ones.

R770. IS it 160 pipes? I think not. TMU and ROP count do not match. 480 shaders? Again, we have the same problem. BOttlenecks galore in any current rumours out there...

I think we may all be in for a surprise. I'm gonna sit back and enjoy the show this time tho. It has been a LONG week!

[y2kbos]

I found an Nvidia fanboy! Do i get a prize?

What about the people who currently dont have a Graphics card and are building a new rig? The 4870 is going to be considerably cheaper than the GTX 260 and it will perform a hell of a lot better than the G92 8800gts (the next best bang for buck option)

You have a card.Post was meant for you, not anyone else..

hell of a lot better than the G92 8800gts

Doubtful..

GTX280 yeah, HD4870 is too if you think 25% is " hell of a lot better "

[conzymaher]

Erm I don't have a card? I currently have no gaming PC at all.....

and secondly, you are just pulling benchmark figures out of your ass

We will see how well it performs soon....