How Intel Will Lock Overclocking on LGA1160 (Mainstream Nehalem) - Fud

[Warboy]

Whats up with the tags for this thread?

"bendover, fudzilla, intel_loves_you_no_really, lga1160, lock, nehalem, no overclocking"

[MrToad]

I've arrived late to this thread, and there's quite a lot of information to digest on it (which is good, as we have plenty of long threads that contain no information whatsoever...)

If I've understood correctly, I think Intel's approach to the change in architecture should not be criticized but welcomed...

We really need a mainstream platform that's energy and cost (and with "cost" I imply manufacturing/disposal process as much as I do SKU cost) efficient. If that means that OC-ing it's out of the picture on it, that's more than acceptable collateral damage.

The power consumption has escalated out of control. In 1999-2001 I was building gaming rigs with 350W-450W PSUs. Now 700W it's not an uncommon figure, and there's a GPU manufacturer that talks 1100W like I talk free-range eggs.

As life of computer components becomes shorter and shorter, specially in the "enthusiast" market, it creates a big problem with recycling and waste disposal. A more simple layout should (although this not always holds true) result in a more simple recycling process.

Overclocking it's as energy inefficient as it can possibly be. It's a fun hobby, yes, but it's becoming too easy and too mainstream for comfort, to the point of system builders selling pre-overclocked machines (being the Q6600 the worst offender) marketing the increased performance, and blissfully forgetting the power waste.

Intel has a line of SKUs aimed specifically to our so-called "enthusiast" market. If we have to pay through our noses to build a rig based on such platform, great. It gives me the same warm fuzzy feeling inside as the idea of doubling the road tax of single drivers, or taxing the drivers of SUVs until they sink into the ground, specially if they use them for school runs or doing the weekly shopping. In fact I'd promote a specific tax for school runs, to cover the expenses of an underutilized, yet much more sensible, public transport alternative.

I've just ditched a monstrosity that sucked 745W from the mains @ load for a much more sensible 369W, and I feel that's the way to go forward. I no longer can play Crysis @30 fps, but it's a fair compromise for halving my power requirements. If Intel's take on the subject goes along these lines, and they reduce my energy requirements further while they start seriously talking about what we do with the (all too prematurely) EOL SKUs, they will keep my custom, even if that means that I can no longer call myself Xtreme.

[BrowncoatGR]

You know there are some folks posting here who are worse than Fudo and that Shacoocoo guy. Fugger and the gang are about Xtreme Overclocking, not Bang for Buck overclocking, that's some other site, not this one. Thanks Dewd for clearing this up.

Not to knock the cheap guys at all. No detail but just in General will there be any Legacy Processors for Sc-775/771 or will they truly die?

When did this forum become exclusively about LN2 OCing?

Gosh I love how the rules change when the Blue team is doing it, it's bad but when the Green team is doing even worse, it's OK! Folks bragged about how sweet a deal was for a $389 to $439 3800+ for almost a year while AMD raped the market. Green blooded guys from far and wide defended them. They absolutely gushed and blushed about $850 FX-55's and were down right Giddy over $634 4400+ so please spare that it cost too much crying!? Please? NO, most folks here didn't buy Intel's top models and when Conroe launched Intel had enough sense to also ship some for the Sub $200 Market and not pull an AMD 3800+ trick.
Please speak for yourself If any Nehalem ships anywhere near the $400 price point it will sell like gangbusters. Sure every one can't afford it, but many more will IMHO! Unlike the other guy, most of us can at least predict that Nehalem will be worth $400

That is not the same. You could still get a Single Core CPU and OC it. And if you really wanted a DC you could buy a P-D. Many ppl did just that, many will again. Afaik AMD was capacity constraint at the time. But enough about this. This isn't about AMD and once more you turned this into a VS thread.

I believe business decisions should still be about what gives the best bang for your buck. Middle of next year is about when both Intel and AMD mainstream systems should be in full swing. Say AMD does come out with better performance/Watt and $. More power to them and i would expect you to fill offices with their systems. If Intel puts out a system that wins in those categories over AMD then I would expect that to be the system of choice there.

Very true. Office PCs are not about who has the fastest CPU.

[gojirasan]

I don't see why anyone has a problem with this. I would think that most of us would be buying the Bloomfield platform anyway. It is just so much better. The only downside I can see is that it looks like dual core CPUs will not be supported on it, but that is not such a downside when you consider that Nehalem will be a native quad (and maybe octo) core. It should be able to power down the other 3 cores when they are not in use. Still there is the issue of dual cores typically overclocking a bit better than quads. Some of you seem to be forgetting that this is extreme systems, not budget systems. I am willing to buy a lower binned CPU only as long as it overclocks to almost the same level as the higher binned version. From what I have read Bloomfield is a replacement for X38/X48 not Skulltrail. While this may effect some mainstream users it is not going to affect enthusiasts much at all. It sounds like Bloomfield will fully support overclocking. I consider that good news.

[adamsleath]

mmm no intel oc in the 'cheap' range might mean a return to amd chips for their 'oc ability', but if mainstream/cheap intel nehalem still outperforms an oced amd then it's moot.

[happychappy]

Bloomfield is the desktop quad for LGA1366. The LGA1160 Lynnfield and Havendale are 'average joe's Nehalem'.

Ahh okay easy to make mistakes with this

[largon]

I have no idea why some people think XtremeSystems = expensive high-end parts only. This forum is all about overclocking. I haven't checked the definition of the word "overclocking" lately but I doubt it incorporates: "use only expensive pre-overclocked and top binned high-end components".

About Xtreme Systems


Computing Without Limits!

Xtreme Systems was originally developed as an exceptional forum around the world to work as a distributive computing team to push hardware and software to the maximum limits (over-clocking). The network has grown from 100 top computer minds from around the world to several million users pulling in a average of over 1.3 million pages views per day (over 36 million per month) and 2.8 million user sessions per day. We are one of the fastest growing social networking forum based websites in the world, growing at a rate of 468% per year since inception.

Xtreme Systems, Inc is recognized as the #1 professional-computer gaming forums with a true competitive edge driven by the most powerful systems in the industry. Xtreme Systems is an IT system integrator dedicated to delivering innovation in the computer industry years ahead of schedule.

Xtreme Systems is comprised of computing teams, reviews, and news. Xtreme Systems has the top over-clocking teams in the world, consistently pushing systems and software far beyond expected limits. IT professionals, Gamers, and Developers look to Xtreme Systems for unbiased benchmark testing and written reviews, constantly testing future prototype hardware and software. 58 million gamers worldwide and 15 million IT professionals are discovering Xtreme Systems as the Forum of choice for now and the future.

http://www.xtremesystems.com/aboutus/

[Frodin]

I have a principle not to buy CPUs that cost over $300 (300€). I don't give a crap what the chip does in SPi or 3DMark, all it matters is it's relatively cheap and overclocks. After that price point the marginal gains you get aren't worth it. It's obvious those who buy $300+ chips don't care about performance/price so their opinions about this OC-lock aren't that relevant in the end as certainly the huge majority of overclocking is done on sub-$300 chips such as E6600/Q6600/E8_00 and lesser. The second issue are the motherboards. I never buy "high-end" boards that costs >200€, and since the high-end X58 seems to be the only choice with Bloomfield for some time that's yet another no-go.

I sincerely doubt we'll see sub-$300 LGA1366 chips and sensibly priced Bloomfield mobos - but I guess it's just Intel who loses. And I'm fine with that.

Very good points, I feel exactly the same for the most part, although I don't have a principle not to buy 300$+ CPU, yet I have never bought a CPU that cost more than about 200$.
I could just simply buy AMD for the hell of it, intel would lose my money, and it's not like intel is losing money on people overclocking cheap CPUs like some of you seem to think. Many wouldn't cough up 400$ just to be able to overclock, this I am quite sure of. I am also quite sure intel makes money from the E8400 and the likes, that many seem to buy 2 or 3 (or more) of to get the best overclocker, just because they are cheap enough. Myself and quite a few people I know who overclock think 400$ is too much for a CPU. So perhaps instead of spending around 200$ two or three times on upgrading CPUs like now, we'll simply buy a 150$ AMD CPU once, and leave it at that, and spend the money on something more worthwhile, like fine wine or somehting

[Gl@re]

$400 IS alot for a processor... i spent around that much on my old Q6600 when they first came out, never again the value dropped like a rock. i got my E8400 for $170, 4GB DDR2 1066 for $150 and my EVGA780i for $300. to get the same level (respectively to the new chips) it's going to be at least $400 for a low end chip (i wouldn't call an E8400 that does 4.6 benchable on cheap wc low end), $300 for 4GB of good DDR3, and who knows how much mobo makers will charge for their "enthusiast platforms" probably $300-$400.

also, how is this going to affect Nvidia and their chipset business? will they just put everything (SLI) on the southbridge? what about all those EPP memory modules?

[Calmatory]

Lack of competition drives into this. :p

I find it way more xtreme to take the low-cost machine to the very limits in terms of usability/price, than to do (SPONSORED!!) 6 hour Ln2 sessions twice a month with few too rich people.

[stocius]

Very good points, I feel exactly the same for the most part, although I don't have a principle not to buy 300$+ CPU, yet I have never bought a CPU that cost more than about 200$.
I could just simply buy AMD for the hell of it, intel would lose my money, and it's not like intel is losing money on people overclocking cheap CPUs like some of you seem to think. Many wouldn't cough up 400$ just to be able to overclock, this I am quite sure of. I am also quite sure intel makes money from the E8400 and the likes, that many seem to buy 2 or 3 (or more) of to get the best overclocker, just because they are cheap enough. Myself and quite a few people I know who overclock think 400$ is too much for a CPU. So perhaps instead of spending around 200$ two or three times on upgrading CPUs like now, we'll simply buy a 150$ AMD CPU once, and leave it at that, and spend the money on something more worthwhile, like fine wine or somehting:ROTF:

Fine wine for all the world, it will be a better place.

When I started overclocking years and years ago in the days of yore, it was all about making cheap parts good thru technical skill to amazing parts that we couldn't find or get. If you have the coin afford expensive CPUs then great! Overclocking is just a game like a puzzle for me not a religion or something to be fanatical about.

I do however like to see new technology, and I think it will interesting to see how this all plays out. Remember, far more money is to made in the business and avg. consumer market than the niche market of overclockers.

Before someones flames me for having AMD in my sig, I'll let you know I have a Q6600 based system as well that I'm no longer working on or using much, thus the Q6600 is no longer in my sig.

Neither Intel or AMD have been my "friend" nor do I expect them to be, they are corporations that have one goal at the end of the day: profitability.

[Serra]

oh theyve been wanting to do this for a long time.. they can and they will.. can you blame them? cant really.. its all about $ $ $

theyve been loosing greatly to low $/clock cpus.. every single person on the planet that has ever overclocked an intel cpu.. intel lost $ big time.. at least thats how they see it

in other words.. this is short of calling overclocking: "piracy"

'bout sums it up.

I recognize that Intel will be releasing a higher end product for overclockers so I'm not terribly concerned about this generation... but my fear would be for the *next* generation. For example, if this is true and they were able to fully segment us, they will finally be able to put a price on exactly how much more we bring them in revenue (buying the more expensive parts with higher margin) and they'll be able to make a decision on whether we're worth supporting in the future.

If anyone thinks they look at overclocking and want to "support" us - this reminds me a fair bit of when they first locked CPU multipliers. Back then it was to "stop unscrupulous resellers from ripping off consumers" (which undoubtedly happened)... but look at the effect that's had on our community. Suddenly we can't buy a cheap part and OC it as well as a high-end part, we have to actually spend an additional $300 for the *same part*, just with a higher/unlocked multiplier. Sure they're binned differently (now at least, though it changes per release/referesh), but it's not like it costs them one red cent more to set that multiplier higher. Somehow we got used to multipliers being locked - and paying extra for it in our OC community - so now Intel's just raising the bar again, looking for more money.

This isn't an anti-Intel rant or anything... it's a pay-to-play world and frankly no-one should be surprised to see Intel (or AMD) trying to squeeze more profit from us.

[dinos22]

looks like i'll be moving onto a new hobby

looks at golf maybe
got a course right next door.....wonder how much a set of clubs is and can they be tweaked a little

[shiznit93]

looks like i'll be moving onto a new hobby

looks at golf maybe
got a course right next door.....wonder how much a set of clubs is and can they be tweaked a little

Around the price of the entry level Bloomfield cpu probably.

[dinos22]

Around the price of the entry level Bloomfield cpu probably.

sweet
i'm too scared to get back into fishing cause i spent some serious dosh on that gear and after seeing what my mates have been up to while i was into computers i only scratches the surface lol hahahah

[Anemone]

First Nehalem's out the door are going to be the extreme versions, so most of this argument refers to are cpu's that won't be out for a year. AMD is hurting badly and needs more money per cpu. Do you think AMD is going to sell cheap cpu's that overclock or join Intel on the "pay to play" concept? Sure AMD and Intel both "court" this forums members to some degree, but no company gets ahead by giving performance away for free. One might even go so far as to say that AMD did it more out of desperation than being a friend to OC'ers.

Am I favoring any given side? Possibly, but I'm trying to say that 1 year from now is a long time in processors and that what range of cpu's is offered to each platform varies as much by competition as it does by technical ability. Intel has an entire platform dedicated to the enthusiast so they at least know we exist AMD does too, in a sense, so neither is ignoring us. A Q6600 (the darling that many made of it) costs $215 now at Newegg, and that same $400 cpu that no one thinks they want that will OC on a Bloomfield platform (by varying the PLL) is likely to be also $200 by the end of 2009. So relax. This is about what you will get and when you will get it, more than it's about whether you'll be able to get it or not.

The reason the E8500 is so cheap is because it's cheap to build. And from the above, if you stick that (being a cheap Nehalem) on a X58 platform you will be able to OC the bugger. Just can't put it on a Px5 Lynnfield and do it is all. And remember another thing. The traces may make the first mobo's more expensive, but overall bringing the IMC into the cpu is going to make the cpu more $$ and the mobo's cheaper. So be careful talking cpu prices because the mix of costs cpu/mobo/memory is about to shuffle some. The memory bandwidth is going to go UP on memory that is cheaper to make (1333), so even the memory cost may go down some (not just the fact that ddr3 is getting cheaper over time).

So the only folks who are going to be OC'ing Nehalems in 2008 and early 2009 are those who bought Ex cpu's. The lay of the land as to what mainstream cpu's will and won't is going to be partially based on competition, not just ability. Both companies are making products to entice this community and others like it. If they realize they have to offer affordable options to get the community going, they will (remember that was a good portion of the lure of the Q6600 was that when all the Quads were costing $1k+ the 6600 offered a more affordable option, which has gotten downright cheap over time).

I'm not downplaying people's right to criticize the costs of this hobby. I'm trying to inject a little bit of "the future we speak of is a long way away - and oc'ing isn't going away" into the thinking a bit is all.

$.02

[fireice2]

the majority of the market doesn't even know what overclocking means.

[AliG]

Well if they do that, you can guess that AMD will take that little hole to get some market shares for sure!

maybe they're doing this because they have to prevent amd from dying off and facing many lawsuits for creating a monopoly?

[Calmatory]

the majority of the market doesn't even know what overclocking means.

Then what brought C2D to it's prime? Do you think that People would use C2Ds that much if they clocked 0-5%, and A64s clocked 45-80%? Yes, overclockers are minority, but why does Intel support overclocking with C2Ds so much? :p

C2Ds are fast. C2Ds overclock VERY well. If C2Ds didn't OC, peopel would use OC'd A64s/Phenoms here. :P

[mrcape]

Gosh I love how the rules change when the Blue team is doing it, it's bad but when the Green team is doing even worse, it's OK! Folks bragged about how sweet a deal was for a $389 to $439 3800+ for almost a year while AMD raped the market. Green blooded guys from far and wide defended them. They absolutely gushed and blushed about $850 FX-55's and were down right Giddy over $634 4400+ so please spare that it cost too much crying!? Please? NO, most folks here didn't buy Intel's top models and when Conroe launched Intel had enough sense to also ship some for the Sub $200 Market and not pull an AMD 3800+ trick.

Please speak for yourself If any Nehalem ships anywhere near the $400 price point it will sell like gangbusters. Sure every one can't afford it, but many more will IMHO! Unlike the other guy, most of us can at least predict that Nehalem will be worth $400

I think you might have quoted the wrong guy here. I spoke for myself when I said I would pay $400.

I just doubt that most of the people on the enthusiast bandwagon will. I think that the fact that you can get so much for so cheap in the current pricing scheme is a big part of the reason why the enthusiast market has grown so big in the past two years. It also allows unsponsored overclockers a less expensive way to find good batches, take risks and go for high scores.

I am glad that there will still be products geared toward overclockers. Whatever, either way it'll be an exciting time with the new chips.

[AliG]

no, Core 2's ipc is so much stronger than k8s that even if k8 could oc to 3.5ghz consistantly people would still just buy an e6850 and trounce it, perhaps people would use phenom due to the 9850's well pricing and decent ocing if you couldn't oc the q6600, but since you can...

[Calmatory]

no, Core 2's ipc is so much stronger than k8s that even if k8 could oc to 3.5ghz consistantly people would still just buy an e6850 and trounce it, perhaps people would use phenom due to the 9850's well pricing and decent ocing if you couldn't oc the q6600, but since you can...

According to that(fastest CPU), no one would use Phenoms/A64s right now, which is false.

[Donnie27]

When did this forum become exclusively about LN2 OCing?


That is not the same. You could still get a Single Core CPU and OC it. And if you really wanted a DC you could buy a P-D. Many ppl did just that, many will again. Afaik AMD was capacity constraint at the time. But enough about this. This isn't about AMD and once more you turned this into a VS thread.

Very true. Office PCs are not about who has the fastest CPU.

All price comparisons are valid, if not, we would not have to shop I didn't say that as a battle cry or something but just an example, maybe I should have stressed that a little more.

If Nehalem is what Intel says it is performance wise then $400 will seem like a very good deal. It's not like we never paid $400 for a performance part before is all I meant=P That includes CPU's from Intel and AMD.

[Sentential]

Hmmmm I have a different take on this. I personally think that by using the PLLs they are going to use that as a lynchpin against motherboard manufactuers by forcing them to pay some sort of royalty in order to get overclocking motherboards.

Specifically to me this sounds like a means to effectively lock out nvidia from the enthusiast market and force them to give SLI liscenses to Intel.

[Donnie27]

I think you might have quoted the wrong guy here. I spoke for myself when I said I would pay $400.

I just doubt that most of the people on the enthusiast bandwagon will. I think that the fact that you can get so much for so cheap in the current pricing scheme is a big part of the reason why the enthusiast market has grown so big in the past two years. It also allows unsponsored overclockers a less expensive way to find good batches, take risks and go for high scores.

I am glad that there will still be products geared toward overclockers. Whatever, either way it'll be an exciting time with the new chips.

[B]Originally Posted by mrcape
$400+ CPU prices are going to turn off 99% of enthusiasts who are in this for bang for the buck. There are competitons based on price per benchmark point. Unless they're writing reviews and getting engineering samples, your average enthusiast doesn't want the black box xtreme chips, they want $200 chips that can be chewed up and spit out.
On the other hand I have to admit I'd make the $400 jump. I doubt most will though.[/B]

Shakes head The Enthusiast market grew and gained ground because all computer parts got or became cheaper, not just CPU. The first Pentium 100MHz Processor I but clearance was reduced from it original price of $1,364.36 or something like, I jumped for joy since I only paid $500 $450 for my next AMD processor was steal. The Market crash brought in the largest influx of Newbies.

Folks in it for Bang for the Buck, cheap wise, aren't shopping for Nehalem until late 2009 in the first place. Most news printed so far has made that clear. Folks shopping Bang For The Performance Buck will absolutely look at how much they can get out of Nehalem Overclocked or not. The point is that Bang For the Buck has more than one meaning. Looking at most folks' systems, $200 isn't close to the average Enthusiast's budget!

Your average enthusiast statement is what I took issue with. Look at the Launch price of the X2 as the cheapest X3800 sold for about what Nehalem shipped at. Then also look at the first Intel Quad Core prices? $200 wayy unrealistic for any even mid ranged Quad Core. Again, they're talking Nehalem QUAD CORE, not Dual Core and since YOU SAID $200, that's ridiculous! If most enthusiast saw $200 as being close to average, AMD's X2 wouldn't sold at all=P I wasn't trying to start trash AMD rant!

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