Lapped core 2 duo IHS pics

[unicron02]

I see a lot of people going to lengths to achieve mirror finishes, but it has been my understanding for quite some time (back to the old Northwood days) that a flat surface with very minor defects is just as good, and sometimes better than a shiny/sparkly mirror surface.

I've always just tried to achieve a uniform, flat, and smooth surface. Any thoughts on this?

[Solarfall]

I see a lot of people going to lengths to achieve mirror finishes, but it has been my understanding for quite some time (back to the old Northwood days) that a flat surface with very minor defects is just as good, and sometimes better than a shiny/sparkly mirror surface.

I've always just tried to achieve a uniform, flat, and smooth surface. Any thoughts on this?

you got it man... finally some one lol
like you said the goal is to get the surface flat not polished that wont hurt temps or anything like that but its kinda pointless since it does not yield better temps if you polish it..

[De5tr0yer]

But!, there's always but

As more the surface is closer to be polished, the lesser area there is for heat to travel (pass), that usually covers thermal compound... And we all know that thicker layer of anything between cpu and cooler, no mather how big thermal conductivity it has, still lowers the heat dissipation (e.g. thermal compund)... Simple as that.

And it looks damn sexy

[Zucker2k]

you got it man... finally some one lol
like you said the goal is to get the surface flat not polished that wont hurt temps or anything like that but its kinda pointless since it does not yield better temps if you polish it..

Depends if on your thermal paste of choice. I understand Arctic Ceramique is better for smooth/shiny surfaces because it has smaller micro-particles (maybe not the exact wording). Anyway, here's my L737B looking shinier than a new toy!

[little_scrapper]

A 600-700 grit finish is the best surface for heat transfer using AS Ceramique as the particle size is the best match. Read up on the subject, many studies have been conducted and prove this is true. As a matter of fact a perfect mirror can actually be worse. And you can believe whatever I tell you because I say I know what I'm talking about!

[NickS]

My newest one is in my avatar.

[De5tr0yer]

A 600-700 grit finish is the best surface for heat transfer using AS Ceramique as the particle size is the best match. Read up on the subject, many studies have been conducted and prove this is true. As a matter of fact a perfect mirror can actually be worse. And you can believe whatever I tell you because I say I know what I'm talking about!

Well, you've got the point for the compound... The particles inside the t. compound then create space... Space that there is none with non-lapped mirror finished ones...

[__Miguel_]

Well, you've got the point for the compound... The particles inside the t. compound then create space... Space that there is none with non-lapped mirror finished ones...

You make a good point there, the more polished anything is, the less spaces there are for the TIM to fill.

However, that comment left me thinking... Could it be that you could go without TIM altogether (sp?) if you have one of those "mirror finishes"? Is the TIM only for filling the gaps, or does it actually improve heat transfer over copper-to-copper mirror finishes? I remember seing a video (well, I think it was a video... I woke up an hour ago, my memory is not yet fully functional...) of a guy who had impressively low temps, and then he simply lifted the heatsink...

If I remember correctly, any heat transfer would be limited to the ability of the lowest common denominator, meaning that, even if the TIM has a better heat transfer than copper, it would not be more benefitial, right?

Cheers.

Miguel

[Zeus]

You would need a liquid in betweenfor better heat transfer.

Water will vaporate.

[WiTcHkInG]

Whoa... some nice looking jobs there.

Just had a go and done my Q6600 and swiftech cpu block.
Q6600 come out nice, done with a mixture of sandpaper upto 600.
Cpu block only went upto 400 as its a bit awkward trying to lap it while it still connected to the tubes and pump :P
Come out ok though, temps dropped from about 28-30 t0 22-24 idle with stock volts. Hopefully drop a couple more when AS sets a bit.

[Zeus]

Whoa... some nice looking jobs there.

Just had a go and done my Q6600 and swiftech cpu block.
Q6600 come out nice, done with a mixture of sandpaper upto 600.
Cpu block only went upto 400 as its a bit awkward trying to lap it while it still connected to the tubes and pump :P
Come out ok though, temps dropped from about 28-30 t0 22-24 idle with stock volts. Hopefully drop a couple more when AS sets a bit.

You lapped a Swiftech block?

[[cTx] InfectedSin]

If I remember correctly, any heat transfer would be limited to the ability of the lowest common denominator, meaning that, even if the TIM has a better heat transfer than copper, it would not be more benefitial, right?

Your right to some degree that it is not beneficial. Because remember, the heat will transfer faster, but only over a distance of a few nano-meters. so there may be a difference but it is most likely minimal.

but hay, who am i to stop you from beeing as xtreme as possible right?

[itslogz]

I wasnt able to get any fancy pics with mine, but uh

Heres my old E6600:


Heres my current E6750: yes I need to finish it off. I only got to 1500 grit and I was already tired of moving my arm lmao

[__Miguel_]

Your right to some degree that it is not beneficial. Because remember, the heat will transfer faster, but only over a distance of a few nano-meters. so there may be a difference but it is most likely minimal.

but hay, who am i to stop you from beeing as xtreme as possible right?

Well, it's not a question of being "as xtreme as possible", most of all because I never lapped a CPU in my life, nor I have the time or extra money to do it.

I was just remembering my Physics classes. I mean, if you don't have holes and crevices for the TIM to fill (which is why TIM exists in the first place...) when you lap a CPU and heatsink, and this doesn't seem all that farfetched, according to what I've read here, then one of two things happens:

1) The TIM has a lower heat conductivity than copper, meaning using it will end up insulating the CPU-to-heatsink heat transfer, actually being worse using it than not (TIM is used to fill holes, providing contact points where they don't exist, meaning they will ALLWAYS have better heat conductivity than air; if there are no holes to fill, and the TIM has worse heat conductivity than copper, you'll be negating some of the performance increase of the lap process);

or

2) The TIM has a higher heat conductivity than copper, meaning using it will end up being a waste of money, since, again, there are no holes to fill, and copper can only transfer so much heat; in this case, the heat will not "transfer faster", because of the "lowest common denominator".

Ultimately, this would explain why some people don't see improvements on temperatures after lapping - the TIM holding them back -, actually meaning that, if you "mirror-finish", then you're better off NOT using TIM... Weird, huh?

Does this seem absurd at all? It does make sense to me, but, as I've said, I'm a law major, to the last time I even had a Physics class was like 12 years ago... hehehe

Cheers.

Miguel

[Origin_Unknown]

Heres my current E6750: yes I need to finish it off. I only got to 1500 grit and I was already tired of moving my arm lmao

looking at the dust on your board it looks like you Lapped while the cpu was still in your board?


i did a half ass job on mine tbh, same with me TRUE / HR-03-PLUS. Ill post some pics next time i take them off

[celemine1Gig]

Well, it's not a question of being "as xtreme as possible", most of all because I never lapped a CPU in my life, nor I have the time or extra money to do it.

Don't worry mate. You didn't miss more than aching hands covered with metal dust stains. And all that for a few degrees and perhaps some more MHz, if even at all.
I have to admit though that I still do it regardless if it really helps or not. It's just that I somehow have to do it.

I was just remembering my Physics classes. I mean, if you don't have holes and crevices for the TIM to fill (which is why TIM exists in the first place...) when you lap a CPU and heatsink, and this doesn't seem all that farfetched, according to what I've read here, then one of two things happens:

1) The TIM has a lower heat conductivity than copper, meaning using it will end up insulating the CPU-to-heatsink heat transfer, actually being worse using it than not (TIM is used to fill holes, providing contact points where they don't exist, meaning they will ALLWAYS have better heat conductivity than air; if there are no holes to fill, and the TIM has worse heat conductivity than copper, you'll be negating some of the performance increase of the lap process);

or

2) The TIM has a higher heat conductivity than copper, meaning using it will end up being a waste of money, since, again, there are no holes to fill, and copper can only transfer so much heat; in this case, the heat will not "transfer faster", because of the "lowest common denominator".

Theoretically you are absolutely right. The thing is just that you won't get the surface perfectly clean and flat just by hand lapping. There'll still be microscopic air gaps that you don't even see as scracthes with the bare eye. But under the microscope the surface still looks like a mountain chain. These air gaps will still decrease the performance without any TIM noticeable.


And a TIM will never reach or even surpass the thermal conductivity of a solid metal such as copper. Look at the liquid metal TIMs. They are far superior to any other TIM on the market, but are still hundreds of miles away from reaching copper's thermal conductivity.

Ultimately, this would explain why some people don't see improvements on temperatures after lapping - the TIM holding them back -, actually meaning that, if you "mirror-finish", then you're better off NOT using TIM... Weird, huh?

Does this seem absurd at all? It does make sense to me, but, as I've said, I'm a law major, to the last time I even had a Physics class was like 12 years ago... hehehe

Cheers.

Miguel

Again, theoretically correct, assuming the surface would really be absolutely flat. But in practice it never is. The best you can get by handlapping is no visible scratches and close to a flat surface. Most likely you'll grind down the edges while hand lapping, but that doesn't really mean much for performance, as the CPU DIE is situated directly in the middle.
If you have a shiny and flat surface then using most compounds can indeed decrease performance due to the particle size being too big. For example silicon oil could be used as a TIM here. Many people already did so with good results. But as always this is experimental.


One more thing: Don't forget that there is one more thermal resistance present in the system. It's not only IHS to heatsink, but also CPU DIE to IHS. That's why some people remove the IHS. It's in order to completely eliminate one of the two thermal resitances from the thermal equation.

If the thermal resistance between the IHS and the CPU DIE is quite high (i.e. suboptimal contact) you can lap the IHS to perfection and still you'll get suboptimal thermal performance.



And no, your thoughts don't seem absurd at all. Considering that it's 12 years that you heard the basics, I'm shocked how well you still remember them. I sure wouldn't remember that, if I was in your shoes.

[ooeric]

i wonder if i should put one of my backup celerons under the diamond lapping wheels .

the wheels cut and polish diamonds.. im pretty sure my celery would come out nicer then a diamond.

[Demo]

i wonder if i should put one of my backup celerons under the diamond lapping wheels .

the wheels cut and polish diamonds.. im pretty sure my celery would come out nicer then a diamond.

Is that a rotary lapper?

[__Miguel_]

I have to admit though that I still do it regardless if it really helps or not. It's just that I somehow have to do it.

That would be nice to hear, to a shrink

Theoretically you are absolutely right. The thing is just that you won't get the surface perfectly clean and flat just by hand lapping. There'll still be microscopic air gaps that you don't even see as scracthes with the bare eye. But under the microscope the surface still looks like a mountain chain. These air gaps will still decrease the performance without any TIM noticeable.

Oh, riiight, I forgot about that... I thought the lapping process made those holes small enough to be smaller than TIM...

And a TIM will never reach or even surpass the thermal conductivity of a solid metal such as copper. Look at the liquid metal TIMs. They are far superior to any other TIM on the market, but are still hundreds of miles away from reaching copper's thermal conductivity.

Then my assumption on that one was correct. Cool

One more thing: Don't forget that there is one more thermal resistance present in the system. It's not only IHS to heatsink, but also CPU DIE to IHS.

Another one I missed... So that basically means you'll ultimately be limited by the contact between CPU die and IHS - which, again, would explain why some people can't get anything out of lapping, meaning that contact is pretty awfull...

And no, your thoughts don't seem absurd at all. Considering that it's 12 years that you heard the basics, I'm shocked how well you still remember them. I sure wouldn't remember that, if I was in your shoes.

Now you know the reason why I don't remember names all that well... hehehe My brain has limited storage space, so if basic knowledge is still there, other stuff doesn't fit...

Oh, right, I almost forgot. Thank you for the compliment.

Now to continue gazing at those impressive lap jobs (I know, I know... )

Cheers.

Miguel

[Unrealer]

E4300, only with 600:
















High res:


PD: 6ºC better.

[fng77]

Heres my E2160. Pretty concave before lapping

[fng77]

Next step: Complete removal

[Unrealer]

Next step: Complete removal

What was the difference between lapping and IHS removal?

[loonym]

Here's a q6600

and the TR 120-UE that tops it

[tsuehpsyde]

Doh, nevermind. :p I can read well.