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Thread: Some new test equipment

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  1. #1
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    Some new test equipment

    Yesterday I took delivery of:

    a) An Anemometer
    b) A decent-quality sound-level meter
    c) A digital tachometer

    I also have a positive displacement nutating low-pressure-drop flow-rate sensor capable of measuring flow-rates to 0.01LPM accuracy (when coupled with the digital tachometer - 1RPM = 0.01LPM).

    I also have a fanless 12v PSU, and with all of the above I intend to construct a fan noise & air-flow testing station.

    I'm not so interested in free-air fan noise levels, because it means nothing. Fan noise does get lower when under load/pressure. I'll measure the free-air noise and flow levels, just for purposes of comparison/validation sake.

    What I'm really interested in is air-flow for noise, when mounted on a radiator. Also will be measuring fan RPM where possible (using the digital tachometer again).

    Will also compare shrouded, unshrouded, suck, and blow air-flows.

    Was just messing with the equipment a bit last night, putting a Yate-Loon on a PA120.1 radiator with a shroud, in suck or blow arrangement. I was able to position the anemometer on the other side of the radiator to get an idea of the evenness of the air-flow through the radiator. Used the tachometer to measure the fan speeds, and the noise meter the fan noise levels. I haven't calibrated the fan noise levels yet to any base reference point, so I won't report the absolute values I got, just the relative values.

    Free-air: +0dBA noise, 1480rpm speed
    Shroud Suck: -2.7dBA noise (i.e. quieter), 1350rpm speed
    Shroud Blow: -3.0dBA noise (i.e. quieter), 1460rpm speed

    I found the noise level differences, and the fan speed differences to be quite intriguing. If the fan is spinning faster, it's pushing more air-flow in the blow-mode.

    However, using the anemometer on the other side found that with the shroud, in blow mode, the air coming out the edges of the radiator had about an 80% higher velocity that the air coming out the dead-center. In suck mode, the overall air-velocity appeared lower (will need to measure properly later on full-testbed), but it was more even, with only about a 25% variation between the edges (higher) and the dead-center (lower).

    So yeah - this throws a cloud over the general suck/blow debate. The fan appears to like to blow much better than to suck, but the air-flow is less even, even though it's of a higher velocity. The fan is also quieter in blow-mode.

    It would appear (without further testing) that putting a fan into blow-mode on a radiator with a really deep shroud (60cm) to straighten out the air-flow would be the best way to go, but that's not terribly practical.

    It will be interesing to run some tests with varying shroud depths to determine what gives us the best approximation at an even air-flow through a radiator in blow-mode. The current shroud I'm using is a custom job that I made up, that's 6cm deep. I suspect that differing fan shroud depths may favor suck/blow in different amounts.

    I then want to apply the guidelines gathered as a result of these tests to measuring actual radiator performance, NOT JUST airflow vs noise, but actual cooling performance with a 200W heat-load. Given that different fans will have different air-spread characteristics, and so create different air-flow speeds through different regions of the radiator, I don't think it's going to be as cut and dried as a "dry run" test of noise vs air-flow. It's going to be noise when mounted vs air-flow vs air-flow characteristics.

    This is going to be a long-term effort. I've probably got around 3-4 months to do all this in before my body heals enough to the point that motorbikes and good weather will start distracting me again. So let's see what I can do in that time.

    No promises, but that's what's on the cards.

  2. #2
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    Very interesting results so far. Appreciate the effort. 6 cm shrouds, external systems are becoming more and more attractive

  3. #3
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    Got any plans to do testing on a thermochill vs something like the swiftech mcr? I've been wanting to know the noise significance between the two, especially at 5-8v.

    It's a very nice topic to do reasearch on. I'm looking forward to results.

  4. #4
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    It'll be good to get some science behind all of this. Anecdotal evidence I've heard says suck is quieter, but maybe that's just the placebo effect.

    And let the suggestive jokes commence!

    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceballs
    "What's happening!?"

    "I don't know, sir! She suddenly switched from 'suck' to 'blow'!"

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by migueld View Post
    Got any plans to do testing on a thermochill vs something like the swiftech mcr? I've been wanting to know the noise significance between the two, especially at 5-8v.

    It's a very nice topic to do reasearch on. I'm looking forward to results.
    Yes - I have an MCR120-QP here as well.

    I'm not too sure about me posting up results though. While I don't work for Thermochill, nor have I ever received any money from them, it's no secret that I designed the PA series radiators. While I'm happy to point at independently conducted testing and make comments about performance differences seen from those results, people would naturally question my impartiality on the matter, justified or not.

    What to do? I'll be measuring it anyway - but whether I make the results public is another matter. I'd hate to do all the work to find out the results, only to have some yob come along and call it biased, and therefore invalid.

  6. #6
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    BTW - the (12cm) fans I have here:

    Yate Loon D12SL-12 (curved blades)
    Yate Loon D12SL-12 (straight blades)
    Tricod Science SPDL1225S (a Y-L D12SL-12 straight-blade clone - available in Australia - quieter though - 3-pin connector only)
    Noiseblocker SX-1 (Rev 1 though)
    Xinruilian RDL1225S
    AcoustiFan Dustproof "Ultra Quiet Fan" AFDP-12025
    Panaflo FBA1212GH
    Panaflo FBA1212GL
    Delta TFB1212GHE
    EBM/Papst 4312L

    I also have some Gigabyte F121225SL fans, that came with one of my cases.

    Anyone want to suggest me some more (good) fans? If you could provide a purchase link, that'd be great.
    Last edited by Cathar; 07-03-2007 at 09:29 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cathar View Post
    BTW - the (12cm) fans I have here:

    Yate Loon D12SL-12 (curved blades)
    Yate Loon D12SL-12 (straight blades)
    Tricod Science SPDL1225S (a Y-L D12SL-12 straight-blade clone - available in Australia - quieter though - 3-pin connector only)
    Noiseblocker SX-1 (Rev 1 though)
    Xinruilian RDL1225S
    AcoustiFan Dustproof "Ultra Quiet Fan" AFDP-12025
    Panaflo FBA1212GH
    Panaflo FBA1212GL
    Delta TFB1212GHE
    EBM/Papst 4312L

    I also have some Gigabyte F121225SL fans, that came with one of my cases.

    Anyone want to suggest me some more (good) fans? If you could provide a purchase link, that'd be great.
    Sharkoon Golfball 2000's as per Vapors testing and Sansace Denki's from Petra's.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cathar View Post
    BTW - the (12cm) fans I have here:

    Yate Loon D12SL-12 (curved blades)
    Yate Loon D12SL-12 (straight blades)
    Tricod Science SPDL1225S (a Y-L D12SL-12 straight-blade clone - available in Australia - quieter though - 3-pin connector only)
    Noiseblocker SX-1 (Rev 1 though)
    Xinruilian RDL1225S
    AcoustiFan Dustproof "Ultra Quiet Fan" AFDP-12025
    Panaflo FBA1212GH
    Panaflo FBA1212GL
    Delta TFB1212GHE
    EBM/Papst 4312L

    I also have some Gigabyte F121225SL fans, that came with one of my cases.

    Anyone want to suggest me some more (good) fans? If you could provide a purchase link, that'd be great.
    Stew would be nice to include these Spire 120x25mm fans alot of blow power recently bought 10 of them http://www.stonebridgecomputing.com....g/-p-5859.html - price for 10 of these = about 2x panalo 120x38mm fans heh

    weird part is the exact model can't be found on spire web site

    what web site says
    Spire "FD1202B1M3" 120x120x25mm, Ball Bearing, 3pin connector, 2400rpm Fan Speed, 43dBA Noise Level, 96.06 CFM Airflow.
    what i got

    Spire SP12025B1M3 on outer box but fan label says = FD12025B1M
    photos at http://i4memory.com/reviewimages/coo...mm/FD12025B1M/

    I also have the Xinruilian RDL1225S fans... not as much air pressure as Spire ones while both to me are about same noise level.
    Last edited by eva2000; 07-04-2007 at 02:20 AM.
    ---

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cathar View Post
    Anyone want to suggest me some more (good) fans? If you could provide a purchase link, that'd be great.
    how about these:http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...oducts_id=2888

    I have a couple that used to run at 12v on my old case (never used them on a radiator) and they are the loudest I ever touched, but I have seen many users that swear by them at being "silent" at 7v... at full speed they are rated at 110 CFM

    sorry if there are obvious reasons for leaving them out in the first place, I am just a noob trying to help

    thanks a lot for sharing the testing with us, cant wait for the results

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  10. #10
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    Last edited by NaeKuh; 07-05-2007 at 03:20 PM.
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  11. #11
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    Its always a good day when Stew gets some new toys. Hope you enjoy them!



    On a side note; according to Kim Cattrall its better to suck than blow. She even goes so far as to say blowing can cause serious physical injuries!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer View Post
    Its always a good day when Stew gets some new toys. Hope you enjoy them!



    On a side note; according to Kim Cattrall its better to suck than blow. She even goes so far as to say blowing can cause serious physical injuries!
    If taken out of the context, that could be pretty funny
    But on the topic, looking forward to some testing on the ussue, as I have build my case for suck, and has to do a bit of modding to change it

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by teko View Post
    But on the topic, looking forward to some testing on the ussue, as I have build my case for suck, and has to do a bit of modding to change it
    Don't get too worried. I've never seen more than 2% performance differences, for either suck or block, in any scenario in testing with a single fan.

    It seems to be a scenario of while blow creates more air-flow, the unevenness of the flow through the core hurts performance. Performance does not scale linearly with air-flow, and so it's always better to have even air-flow over the entire core area, rather than some areas receiving twice the air-velocity of other areas.

    Still, in "push" mode, it typically takes 5 fan diameter lengths of ducting (60cm) to "straighten" the air-flow. For "suck", we don't need anything like that much. As my simple test found, even 6cm of shroud depth in suck gives a pretty even flow. I would hazard a guess that by 1 fan diameter (12cm) of shroud depth, that "suck" would yield a very even air-flow.

    I'll conduct a series of shroud depth tests, at 0, 0.25, 0.5, 1.0, 2.0, and 5.0x fan diameter depths in suck & blow mode on a radiator with a 200W heat-load, and see what happens. Rather than test a whole mess of fans, I figure I'll just test the two best flow-noise ratio fans as a result of the "dry" air-flow test runs, and throw a 100cfm fan, and a Delta FFB fan into the mix.

    I'd be curious to see what impact the vane straighteners on Delta FFB/TFB fans have. Who knows? If it works out well, we just might end up creating a market for low-noise water-cooling radiator fans with static vanes that allows for best performance in "push" mode with short shroud depths. That'd be something I'd like to see if it works.

  14. #14
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    this is great stuff! make a rad!
    For the record I am not sick, nor am I a gamer, nor am I a sick gamer. That name just sounds really cool to me but dont put me under that stereotype at all.

    nevermind... addicted to COD4 and Free Online Games baby!

  15. #15
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    San Ace 109R1212H1011 and Scythe S-Flex E,F (1200,1600RPM) are my new favorites

    If you can get them down under, go for it.

    Can't wait for your results.

    (and about the Thermochill issue....might as well post results, or post them as "anonymous radiator A" or something like that)

  16. #16
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    i use this fans http://www.primecooler.com/index.php...ewp&idprod=268 they look good, at 6V are inaudible and three of them keeps my water temp max 7C above ambient at load
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  17. #17
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    I don't know if I am right but it makes sense to me that if you are "pulling" air through the shroud and rad the fan will be drawing air from every possible opening with the areas of highest pressure differential showing more flow. This should give a more even draw through the rad. The fan in a "discharge" configuration will be more affected by the fan design, the length of shroud and the fins/inch of the rad.

    I look forward to your test results. They say that from adversity come the greatest achievements. Your injuries have given you the time to explore the "what ifs" and the industry will definitely benefit from it. Our hats are off to you sir.
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  18. #18
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    I'd like to see these reviewed too as I have been running them for awhile and actually have to check the RPM on my Aquero to make sure they are running. Yes I find them that silent.

    http://www.sharkacomputers.com/acduulqufan1.html

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by migueld View Post
    Ditto, I like those as well
    As I said above. They're already on their way. (The Coolermaster and the Arctic).

    Quote Originally Posted by RickCain View Post
    I'd like to see these reviewed too as I have been running them for awhile and actually have to check the RPM on my Aquero to make sure they are running. Yes I find them that silent.

    http://www.sharkacomputers.com/acduulqufan1.html
    I already have one right here. See original list.

    To be honest, I (subjectively) find it to have a lot of motor drone in comparison to a number of other fans. Oh, for sure they are quiet, but there are a number of other fans that are quieter.

  20. #20
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    What's the difference between the yate loon D12SL-12 and the D12SL-12C? It seems the D12SL-12C is much quieter at 20.8db vs 28 and only 2.5 CFM difference from the D12SL-12? Which one is better?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by migueld View Post
    What's the difference between the yate loon D12SL-12 and the D12SL-12C? It seems the D12SL-12C is much quieter at 20.8db vs 28 and only 2.5 CFM difference from the D12SL-12? Which one is better?
    The C is a 20mm thick fan, while the non-C is a 25mm thick fan.

    Take all noise ratings from manufacturers with a large grain of salt, even if from the same manufacturer. I'd say a that different noise testbed was used.

    Somewhat odd. The Yate-Loon site says that the D12SL-12's are ball-bearing fans. The Tricod Science fans I have here, which look almost identical to the Yate Loons, even down to the mould ejection points, are sleeve bearing. The Tricods are quieter than the Yate-Loons by around 3.5dBA.

    Look, I've been using these Tricod fans for ages. A number of people in the USA wanted to find them, and it looked like the Yate-Loon's were the original makers. Now I'm not so convinced. While the moulds are near identical, the Tricods look cheaper/rougher, like the mould has been through far more cycles. Tricod is also apparantly a sub-company of the Codegen Group, and as far as I can tell, not related to Yate-Loon. Who really knows though? So many of these companies somehow manage to end up with "copies" of the same base moulds.

    All I can say is that Yate-Loons D12SL-12's are noisier than their Tricod Science counterparts, even though they are identical in all other respects. The Tricods spin around 50rpm slower at 12v.

    It makes me wonder if Nexus aren't rebranded Yate-Loons, but really manufactured by the same guys who make the Tricods. The noise difference IS noticable.

  22. #22
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    Do you have any idea how much it will cost to ship a couple of fans down to you from Denmark? I have aome different sunons and a couple of other 120mm's You could test I have no need for them, and no space for them

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by teko View Post
    Do you have any idea how much it will cost to ship a couple of fans down to you from Denmark? I have aome different sunons and a couple of other 120mm's You could test I have no need for them, and no space for them
    In Australia, to ship stuff internationally to Denmark, I'd say we'd be looking at around the 10-15EUR sort of range, depending on parcel weight.

    Please don't send me Sunon's. IMO, they are THE worst fan brand on the market for noise. They drone horribly, and they make lots of noise, no matter the voltage. Sunon don't seem understand the concept of "low noise". I suspect that all of their engineers and salespeople must live under heavily trafficked rattly steel railway bridges, and suffer from severe tinitis so much so that small nuclear explosions sound "tolerable" to them.

    Am really only interested in testing fans that stand a good chance, even powerful fans when undervolted, to be the best for noise-flow-performance. If you have some spare fans that you feel could offer that, then sending them would be most appreciated.

  24. #24
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    I'll round up what I have of 120mm except sunon, got some 3,2 amps though :p And mail you for a shipping adress

  25. #25
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    Am really only interested in testing fans that stand a good chance, even powerful fans when undervolted, to be the best for noise-flow-performance. If you have some spare fans that you feel could offer that, then sending them would be most appreciated.
    Could send you the Yate Loon D12SH-12 if you want.

    They're not too bad at 12V (was more expecting to go deaf with the 40db rating), more tolerable at 7V though.

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