The anatomy of a 'bow'.

[nealh]

No I don't have calipers to properly measure the thickness of the EK o-ring... perhaps Alex could help us out here? I'm thinking that a FLAT rubber gasket may be better than a round o-ring - perhaps it will spread the bow a bit better I just don't know yet - I've only used the EK oring and it is as large as I would go but it is useable. Once you do it though, it is a one way street.

The fact once bowed always bowed is a bit of a concern for future uses

On a GTX clealry the only way to go is a bowed block

On Fuzion...it seems to me you maybe best to leave it alone...as performance is close to bowed GTX

I will wait for niksub1 final results...dont forget if you bow the blocks to have a good backplate to protect mobo

BTW..excellent observations and creative thinking niksub1!!!!!!!!!!!

[p8ntslinger676]

well im going to bow my regular apogee cus i really have nothing to loose since i'm about to mill my own block that will pwn all since it will be out of 1/2" thick copper instead of 1/4"

[serialk11r]

wait, so with a lapped CPU, is the bow as effective?

and how is the bowed induced just from a thicker O-ring?

Remember when you mount it, the mounting plate comes down on FOUR CORNERS of the block. I suspect that this can slightly bend the base upward...I guess that's a big reason why the bow mount works so well, gives wonderful contact in the center where you need it. Sure with a lapped CPU it should work...:P

[serialk11r]

well im going to bow my regular apogee cus i really have nothing to loose since i'm about to mill my own block that will pwn all since it will be out of 1/2" thick copper instead of 1/4"

? Who said 1/4" sucked? heh the base of blocks these days are 1/4" so I'd like to see your block beat the Fuzion just with 1/2" copper Remember that the water running through makes super tall pins not so useful if you don't have ginormous amounts of heat going through...

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

lol no, look at the dtek and how that would work to bow,

thicker middle + thinner edges = () <---- a convex shape

[serialk11r]

oh ok. so the thicker O-ring just makes it stronger and less resistant to bend upward?

Note that the PRESSURE is now focused in the center of the IHS...Back in the old Apogee GT thread (I think it was that one) or was it the CES one? we were discussing the issue...that was one of the theories that came up, that the slight bending upwards made contact very poor. Anyways we can clearly see here (courtesy of nikhsub's camera...which is better than my webcam :P Hey I'll have that camera for free if you don't want it ) that the bowed base is concentrating all the force near the center of the IHS where the core (s) are=more pressure=better contact

[serialk11r]

but HOW does a thicker O-ring induce the bow?? i get the application, but i dont get how the thicker o-ring creates the bow

Uh oh, this is the second time today that I'm gonna show everyone my super leet MSP skillz...brb

[serialk11r]

[m411b]

but HOW does a thicker O-ring induce the bow?? i get the application, but i dont get how the thicker o-ring creates the bow

The thicker O-ring creates a bigger gap between the actual copper plate and the plastic block reservoir ( if you will ) and allows the copper to bend slightly in the center to create a "BOW" to allow more pressure to be directly placed on the IHS directly over the core (s) to allow for better cooling.
I learnt that in college..

[m411b]

Why do you have those big bolts sticking out of the motherboard? I have never understood that...

Those big "Bolts" are there to "Bolt" the Water Bock down to the Mother Board.
I Learnt That in College too

[nikhsub1]

Why do you have those big bolts sticking out of the motherboard? I have never understood that...

I suppose you use magic to affix your WB to the cpu? Perhaps you have little elves hold the damn things on for you? Or maybe, Ivanka Trump comes and begs you to let her apply 60 lbs of pressure to your WB? No, I bet that Heather Mills lends you her fake leg to wedge the WB into place

[Petra]

No I don't have calipers to properly measure the thickness of the EK o-ring... perhaps Alex could help us out here?

Hmm... Sounds like a job for my spiffy new Mitutoyo digital calipers.

Little did I realize how hard it would be to measure all of these damn o-rings (too squishy/tacky). The first measurement given is, well, what I measured and the second is what I'm guessing they're specced. as (assuming that their thickness spec. is metric).

EK 1/4" BSPP fitting (older version with larger collar/flange): 2.50mm (2.5mm)

EK 1/4" BSPP fitting (current version with smaller collar/flange): 2.43mm (2.4mm)

Swiftech nickel plated brass 1/4" BSPP fitting: 2.62mm (2.6mm)

Danger Den 1/4" BSPP "high-flow" fitting (older version w/thick o-ring): 2.55mm (2.5mm)

Danger Den 1/4" BSPP "high-flow" fitting (current version w/thin o-ring): 1.80mm (1.8mm)

D-Tek 1/4" BSPP fitting: 2.02mm (2mm)

Swiftech Nylon 1/4" NPSM fitting (Eldon James): 2.59mm (2.6mm)

EK 1/4" BSPP plug: 2.01mm (2mm)

EK thread spacer: 1.53mm (1.5mm)


So, how's that Scott?

BTW, Brian offered to lend me his Sper manometer for pressure drop testing and I think that I'm either gonna take him up on that or buy my own, as I'm realizing that I don't have the precision needed for the FuZion in the lower flowrate range (talking <= 0.1psig @ 0.5GPM).

[m411b]

I suppose you use magic to affix your WB to the cpu? Perhaps you have little elves hold the damn things on for you? Or maybe, Ivanka Trump comes and begs you to let her apply 60 lbs of pressure to your WB? No, I bet that Heather Mills lends you her fake leg to wedge the WB into place

LOL,LOL To in funny man!
You just made my day..

[p8ntslinger676]

? Who said 1/4" sucked? heh the base of blocks these days are 1/4" so I'd like to see your block beat the Fuzion just with 1/2" copper Remember that the water running through makes super tall pins not so useful if you don't have ginormous amounts of heat going through...

i need it for my e6600 cus my apogee cant keep up with the heat output, it is currently idling at 47degrees C which is not very good i NEED that extra pin height.

[serialk11r]

i need it for my e6600 cus my apogee cant keep up with the heat output, it is currently idling at 47degrees C which is not very good i NEED that extra pin height.

:P surface area closer to the bottom is more important Just remember keep the base somewhat thin...and make the pins or whatever small, if you have the milling bits to do so good luck.
Oh back on topic, guys you can get O rings at home depot or orchard supply hardware...

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

looks like dd high flow (current) might be nice, either that or EK thread spacer, just a little bow

also i hope that the guys designing these waterblocks are using calculus to find max surface area dimensions... i know its the best way if you factor in the rate that heat from the cpu reaches different heights on the copper pins, double limit is bound to have an intersection that is ideal. maybe ill look into water block design for a science intensive study/project for the summer

[serialk11r]

looks like dd high flow (current) might be nice, either that or EK thread spacer, just a little bow

also i hope that the guys designing these waterblocks are using calculus to find max surface area dimensions... i know its the best way if you factor in the rate that heat from the cpu reaches different heights on the copper pins, double limit is bound to have an intersection that is ideal. maybe ill look into water block design for a science intensive study/project for the summer

There's a problem, you can't calculate exactly how the turbulence in the block is going to affect the performance...now there's patterns of pins that are effective, but I can imagine that its not possible to calculate exactly what pin shape and exactly what pattern will get you the best results...sure you can calculate the ideal height for the pins on a block like the fuzion but getting a pattern/design is the main issue...

[Darkatom]

This question can NOT be answered as it depends.

Ok, what about stock fuzion with stock mounting hardware against a stock gtx also with stock mounting hardware ? I ask olny because I already have a GTX, it looks great but I really dont want to bow it. I have remounted several times but on average my idle temps were 41c, load is 52c with an ambient of 22c. My e6700 is running at 3.6ghz with 1.49 vCore. I have seen may people post temps lower with the fuzion while using MORE vCore. I'm currently getting the same temps with the GTX as I was with my orginal Apogee .

[nikhsub1]

Ok, what about stock fuzion with stock mounting hardware against a stock gtx also with stock mounting hardware ? I ask olny because I already have a GTX, it looks great but I really dont want to bow it. I have remounted several times but on average my idle temps were 41c, load is 52c with an ambient of 22c. My e6700 is running at 3.6ghz with 1.49 vCore. I have seen may people post temps lower with the fuzion while using MORE vCore. I'm currently getting the same temps with the GTX as I was with my orginal Apogee .

I will say this again, unbowed Apogee's including the GTX are at best mediocre performers. Without the induced bow, the Fuzion KILLS the GTX and GT in my testing so far.

[Darkatom]

Thanks for the response, thats all I wanted to know and that is that the fuzion doesnt need any fancy bowing or mounting to better than a GTX. I guess i'll be ordering a Fuzion tomorrow.

On a side note, dont my temps seem a little off though ?

[dinos22]

I will say this again, unbowed Apogee's including the GTX are at best mediocre performers. Without the induced bow, the Fuzion KILLS the GTX and GT in my testing so far.

damn it stop saying that

you're forcing me to box my apogee

Gabe said dual cores ~2C difference which is not that great....i don't have quads so it is worth messing with it

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

There's a problem, you can't calculate exactly how the turbulence in the block is going to affect the performance...now there's patterns of pins that are effective, but I can imagine that its not possible to calculate exactly what pin shape and exactly what pattern will get you the best results...sure you can calculate the ideal height for the pins on a block like the fuzion but getting a pattern/design is the main issue...

this is true, there are many variables to consider, but it seems it could be done, i definitely know most of the calculus and the physics (calc. 2 and Harvard extension physics exp.)

thermodynamics, calculus, fluid dynamics, and a little computer modeling

once you know the ideal surface area, pin height, and density you would have to consider the arrangement of pins very carefully. From my initial thoughts it seems that the pin design on the apogee is most apt for surface area. The d-tek has cylindrical pins which is not ideal, it does however compliment the high flow nature of the Fuzion.

It will definitely be interesting to explore the in-depth physics behind these blocks

[Darkatom]

damn it stop saying that

you're forcing me to box my apogee

Gabe said dual cores ~2C difference which is not that great....i don't have quads so it is worth messing with it

Well the Apogee are great blocks, but testing proves the Fuzion is better if the apogees arent bowed. I for sure would not feel comfortable doing it.

[serialk11r]

Its sorta like, back then when they designed the internal combustion engine. Its not exactly possible to calculate the best shape for any parts of an engine...there's so many different possible designs. Infinitely many if you count small details, if I may add Just look at Mazda's rotary engine...does it look very much like your standard engine with pistons?
Anyways, pin shape and arrangement are a BIG thing...

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

Its sorta like, back then when they designed the internal combustion engine. Its not exactly possible to calculate the best shape for any parts of an engine...there's so many different possible designs. Infinitely many if you count small details, if I may add Just look at Mazda's rotary engine...does it look very much like your standard engine with pistons?
Anyways, pin shape and arrangement are a BIG thing...

ahhhh but did THEY have computers, i think not.

sometimes it can be hard for us younger people to consider that at one point there were no computers to do anything