Apogee GTX

[NaeKuh]

u guys.. i ask everyone who bought a GTX, to hold from dropping them inside your loop.

And i ask everyone thats about to buy an apogeeGTX to wait. I have a problem with mine, and im trying to resolve it with gabe, to find out if mine is a defect, or if its a serious problem.

So to avoid the spread of rumors, i ask everyone to please wait patiently on this block, until i get some asnwers. I am currently in contact with nikhsub, mcoffey, iany, and gabe on my issue. And i hope honestly, my block is just a defect.

But in light of mcoffey statements to me, i should address i am having some slight problems with it, and i ask the people, to be safe, so to hold on this block.

If you already have this block, i ask you to pm, but when i reply to you guys, i ask you to please keep it quiet until gabe can clear up some answers.

Just incase you guys are wondering also, i realized this issue last night at around 10pm. So no i dont plan nor do i hope to hide this issue. It will come out. I just want gabe to be given a chance to defend the block b4 i post this issue.

[gabe]

I just want gabe to be given a chance to defend the block b4 i post this issue.

Nothing to defend, since there is nothing wrong. Just go ahead and post my reponse to you :-)

[NaeKuh]

okey you guys.. this was the problem i had.. But gabe cleared it up. It did indeed look like a type of paint, or dye. It seems my flow pressure bascially took the dye with it.

Is that just the paint coming off? and if it is, whats exposed underneither?

Coolant used was straight distilled with 10% penosion and 2 drops of blue dye.

The coolant and die was premixed. So i dont think my coolant is to blame for it.

Waiting for your response. :]

Yes this is the black die coming off (not paint.. die.. check out my earlier post about this about the plating process). What is exposed underneath is solid zinc cobalt 6 micron coat, then another 12 micron of nickel :-)

The black die is very superficial, purely cosmetic, and relatively easy to come off. This is the reason why we specify in our warranty exclusions "die discoloration".

We needed a black die instead of paint so we could rub it off easily to give the "edelbrock look". It is essentially harmless water-soluble black die.

Be at peace, enjoy your GTX, all is fine!

BTW, feel free to quote my response.

So yes, i guess there isnt anything to worry about. However, the response took a while, so i moved her back on my d-tek fusion. :P

But here are the discolorations i was concerned about:









Since the block is pulled out, if anyone wants more pics, of the discoloration, feel free to ask. I have my canon ready!

Also, to nikhsub, and iany, and mcoffy, thank you for the help.

[Mekrel]

Hmm don't want no die in my water... think I'll skip.

[serialk11r]

Perhaps this is what's going on?

[NaeKuh]

[QUOTE=serialk11r;2116995 Perhaps this is what's going on?[/QUOTE]

??? im actually worried about this picture...



i see chipping.... im gonna have to re examine the block later, as for now, gotta goto church for easter.

[ziddey]

I can't say anything about the chipping pointed out. But if you're worried about the plating on the threading wearing off, perhaps if we all used a bunch of teflon tape on the barbs, it'd seal it away from interacting with the liquid in the loop

[SiGfever]

Looks can be deceiving, I would wait for proof of an issue before drawing any conclusions. Sometimes we judge and convict someone or something without the proof to justify it. JMO

[Mekrel]

Surely for the die to come of that easily, it has to be a defect?

Is this just a problem for this guys particualr unit or is it a general problem?

I don't think it's acceptable to pass it as "it's just the die coming off" because the whole point in coolant is to have little additives as possible.

Please respond gabe, or anyone else who has the block and noticed a problem or not noticed. I'm up in the morning and you Americans should be posting away as I sleep. Then a drive to ChilledPC to drop off my case and maybe pick up a GTX.

[NaeKuh]

Looks can be deceiving, I would wait for proof of an issue before drawing any conclusions. Sometimes we judge and convict someone or something without the proof to justify it. JMO

which is why i waited for so long. AS i said, i was in consistant pms' with iany, mcoffy, and nikhsub.

They had these pictures roughly 4 hours b4 i posted them up. It was only because of mcoffy's concerns that i sliped the concern out earily. I wanted to wait for gabe to reply about the dye/paint b4 i posted it. Im glad i did.

However, i need to re-exam that block top, and check to see if it is indeed a chip. or just the weird picture angle.

and @ mcoffy:

im a dtek whore for now, like you. Until i decide to slap a MCW 6500T.



incase your wondering.... my temps are higher. 24 on idle, about 43 load.... Yea i miss my apogeeGTX. :T

But the bowing isnt worth it, cuz it scewed my NB mount. And i am not pulling all that apart again, to drop in the gtx for 2C difference.

[serialk11r]

I heard from NoL that MCW6500 has an aluminum top as well...

[Fossil]

I see in the pics the mounting screws for the FuZion are quite thick and have brass hex-nuts on. The ones that came with mine aren't anything like that: they're thin, black, and have matching black thumb-nuts.

Did you replace your mounting screws, or are those the ones from the Apogee?

My Apogee mounting kit doesn't look like that either: it has plain zinc-plated screws and black hex-nuts with caps on.

[thecoldanddark]

I heard from NoL that MCW6500 has an aluminum top as well...

It's been on the website since it was launched.

[gabe]

Hmm don't want no die in my water... think I'll skip.

If the entire internal surface was to wear off, and since we are looking at a die coat thickness of ~3 micron => 3 x 3.93 x 0.00001 x surface of ~2 x 2 = you are looking at roughly 0.0004 cubic inches of die or 0.005ml, or 0.005cc

Also knowing that 1 drop of water is 0.02ml (or cc's) =>

IF the entire internal coat of die was to disolve into the coolant, we are looking at the equivalent of 1/4 of a drop of a coloring die.

Anyone can tell me how much coloring die we have in the average 2 Oz of Pentosin or Zerex? On a limb, I'd say ~ 0.5 cc ? Tha'ts about 25 drops (conservative), or 100 times more than what we are looking at now.

[serialk11r]

NaeKuh, it seems that the nickel plating isn't coming off yet, so you're GTX might be fine...the chips coming off, well there isn't a new metal exposed that I can see...damn I wish I had a camera as good as yours My only camera is a webcam
BTW ppl, its spelled D-Y-E

[NaeKuh]

I see in the pics the mounting screws for the FuZion are quite thick and have brass hex-nuts on. The ones that came with mine aren't anything like that: they're thin, black, and have matching black thumb-nuts.

Did you replace your mounting screws, or are those the ones from the Apogee?

My Apogee mounting kit doesn't look like that either: it has plain zinc-plated screws and black hex-nuts with caps on.

ahahahaha you digg my brass nuts huh?

Well i bought those at osh. To match the DD680i fastener.

Also that mounting kit came off my original crapogee packet. I think they were the U2 converter screws. Not too sure. I told you i have around 5 blocks, and i rarely will use its stock mounting. I like thick bolts. Makes me feel better that there mounted more firmly.


I would totally dig a brass top for the GTX. Call it the Apogee Ultra? Thats how NVidia seems to go.. :P

NaeKuh, it seems that the nickel plating isn't coming off yet, so you're GTX might be fine...the chips coming off, well there isn't a new metal exposed that I can see...damn I wish I had a camera as good as yours My only camera is a webcam
BTW ppl, its spelled D-Y-E

That be my other toy. Cannon Powershot SD600. i highly recomend it to everyone. Even my mom can take clean pics with it. Totally girl friendly :P

Im not married so all the toys belong to me.... As of now..

[situman]

what's the purpose of the dye especially since its on the inside? I mean what purpose does it serve? Certainly its not for tarnish or oxidation prevention since nickel plating doesn't tarnish and such. I mean I doubt anyone would care how colorful or pretty the inside looks like as long as it isn't rotting.

[gabe]

thanks Gabe,

are you starting to ask yourself "is this all worth it, maybe I should offer a delrin, or brass top as an option" you can pretty up the brass top if you want, we'll just call it a brass looking Edelbrock valve cover looking water block Who knows, maybe Edelbrock will make a valve cover that looks like one of your water blocks.

gl,

andyc

We already have a Delrin top: it's the Apogee GT. As to its performance, well do the Math: Naekuh himself has verified his numbers up and now down versus the competition, and we have verified that the GT is only ~1C off the GTX at 100Watts and 1.5GPM. So it clearly tells you were the GT is located performance wise compared to the competition; it's made of Delrin, and it's average street price is $10 to $15 less than competition.

What is most distressing to me is the fact that people in this forum do not trust our data. Yet, this data always end up being verified over time, despite the relentless efforts of the anti-swiftech crowd. I could see not trusting the new kid on the block, but we have been in business for 7 years, and published professional data for what? close to 5 years now? If our numbers were skewed, people would know it after so much time. The only thing we don't publish is competitive data, which doesn't mean that we don't conduct competitive testing in-house. We simply chose not to create controversy by publishing it. So we know were our blocks are on the performance curve, at the tenth of the degree Celsius, and let's just say that we feel very comfortable about it. I also think that the backplate we are about to release will indeed bring both the GT and the GTX a mounting repeatability that will definitely allow all users to exploit the true potential of these blocks.

Back to the GTX and the plating issue, we made a mistake several years ago with anodized blocks. But everybody learns from their mistakes. I know we have, and as a result I am completely confident with the process that we are using now. The fact that you and a few others don't feel comfortable with it is a result of bad past experiences, and I understand it. But progress is made precisely by making mistakes, learning from them, and growing from there. Those who remain stuck in the old ways do not grow: they stagnate and end up falling behind the pace of technology.

Frankly the chances of corrosion in these blocks versus say the chances of machined acrylic tops cracking are thousands to 1. Yet, you guys buy acrylic top blocks (one piece VGA blocks come to mind) like mad. Doesn't matter that theyr'e being recalled. Doesn't matter that some blocks don't come with oring grooves and users have to JB Weld the fittings.. But when Swiftech tells you that the Storm is outdated, or that we use state-of-the-art plating, you chose not to believe it. Fine, what can I say. Just remember one thing if any: WE gave water-block base bowing to the world, not a mere artifact resulting from a manufacturing process, but a conscious decision that we made to incorporate this technology in our offerings based on the knowledge developped from testing. Is bowing the way we do it now the end of the line? Not by a long shot. Right now, it indicates a certain road to follow: hydraulic performance is reaching a plateau, and work needs to be done on other aspects.

The fact that a few of you are putting pressure on us to make a Delrin top (forget brass) for this block is one thing. And maybe we will in the future.. after all if it can sell a few hundred more water-blocks, why would I be against it? But the objective reality is simple: there is absolutely nothing wrong with the current process that we use to plate the GTX, period.

[gabe]

what's the purpose of the dye especially since its on the inside? I mean what purpose does it serve? Certainly its not for tarnish or oxidation prevention since nickel plating doesn't tarnish and such. I mean I doubt anyone would care how colorful or pretty the inside looks like as long as it isn't rotting.

The housings are dipped in the die entirely. The hole housing is coated with it.

[theteamaqua]

yeah i plan on putting a pelt under it , can i do that ??

[Bun-Bun]

We already have a Delrin top: it's the Apogee GT. As to its performance, well do the Math: Naekuh himself has verified his numbers up and now down versus the competition, and we have verified that the GT is only ~1C off the GTX at 100Watts and 1.5GPM. So it clearly tells you were the GT is located performance wise compared to the competition; it's made of Delrin, and it's average street price is $10 to $15 less than competition.

What is most distressing to me is the fact that people in this forum do not trust our data. Yet, this data always end up being verified over time, despite the relentless efforts of the anti-swiftech crowd. I could see not trusting the new kid on the block, but we have been in business for 7 years, and published professional data for what? close to 5 years now? If our numbers were skewed, people would know it after so much time. The only thing we don't publish is competitive data, which doesn't mean that we don't conduct competitive testing in-house. We simply chose not to create controversy by publishing it. So we know were our blocks are on the performance curve, at the tenth of the degree Celsius, and let's just say that we feel very comfortable about it. I also think that the backplate we are about to release will indeed bring both the GT and the GTX a mounting repeatability that will definitely allow all users to exploit the true potential of these blocks.

Back to the GTX and the plating issue, we made a mistake several years ago with anodized blocks. But everybody learns from their mistakes. I know we have, and I feel very comfortable with the process that we are using now. The fact that you and a few others don't feel comfortable with it is a result of bad past experiences, and I understand it. But progress is made precisely by making mistakes, learning from them, and growing from there. Those who remain stuck in the old ways do not grow: they stagnate and end up falling behind the pace of technology.

Frankly the chances of corrosion in these blocks versus say the chances of machined acrylic tops cracking are thousands to 1. Yet, you guys buy acrylic top blocks (one piece VGA blocks come to mind) like mad. Doesn't matter that theyr'e being recalled. Doesn't matter that some blocks don't come with oring grooves and users have to JB Weld the fittings.. But when Swiftech tells you that the Storm is outdated, or that we use state-of-the-art plating, you chose not to believe it. Fine, what can I say. Just remember one thing if any: WE gave bowing to the world, not a mere artifact resulting from a manufacturing process, but a conscious decision that we made to incorporate this technology in our offerings based on the knowledge developped from testing. Is bowing the way we do it now the end of the line? Not by a long shot. Right now, it indicates a certain road to follow: hydraulic performance is reaching a plateau, and work needs to be done on other aspects.

The fact that a few of you are putting pressure on us to make a Delrin top (forget brass) for this block is one thing. And maybe we will in the future.. after all if it can sell a few hundred more water-blocks, why would I be against it? But the objective reality is simple: there is absolutely nothing wrong with the current process that we use to plate the GTX, period.

It's not that I distrust you or your data personally. It is that I work in the industry as a QA superviser and I do not want to take the chance in my rig. There are too many other factors in play to add even more.

Also I do not use acrylic blocks, I do not use full cover VGA blocks, I do not JB weld anything. If I have to go to that extent with a product it gets sent back. And on that note I can say I have not had anything from swiftech that extreme which I am thankful for.

Also I will not touch bowing with a 10ft pole. I felt uncomfortable with the bow caused by the stock Intel heatsink on my Kentsfield and was quick to put a thermalright backplate on my D-Tek.

All I am asking is that you make a flagship block that looks just as good and performs as well as the Apogee GTX but does not have any controversal materials in it. You say that if you want Delrin then go with the GT... well if that were my choice I would choose the D-Tek fuzion... which I did. But I do like the looks and performance gain of the GTX and would have purchased it if it werent for the aluminum.

So you see Gabe... you do have more money to make. Cause I aint buying it until there are no dye's coming off (yes it wont affect anything but it is the principal of the thing. If I spend that much money on a block it darn well be perfect and have nothing coming off of it) and there is no more of this nonsense and plating aluminum.

EDIT: And your last sentence really concerns me as a consumer. If you stop caring about what we think and only care about your data...

[Mekrel]

Well, as you read I was asking the questions to go pick up the block today when I drop off my PC-343B to the powder coaters.

Yet, I don't use coolant or any additives in my loop - Just biocide. I don't personally think it's acceptable for dye to come off as it just to me, seems like it shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Enjoy your block guys

[serialk11r]

It's not that I distrust you or your data personally. It is that I work in the industry as a QA superviser and I do not want to take the chance in my rig. There are too many other factors in play to add even more.

Also I do not use acrylic blocks, I do not use full cover VGA blocks, I do not JB weld anything. If I have to go to that extent with a product it gets sent back. And on that note I can say I have not had anything from swiftech that extreme which I am thankful for.

Also I will not touch bowing with a 10ft pole. I felt uncomfortable with the bow caused by the stock Intel heatsink on my Kentsfield and was quick to put a thermalright backplate on my D-Tek.

All I am asking is that you make a flagship block that looks just as good and performs as well as the Apogee GTX but does not have any controversal materials in it. You say that if you want Delrin then go with the GT... well if that were my choice I would choose the D-Tek fuzion... which I did. But I do like the looks and performance gain of the GTX and would have purchased it if it werent for the aluminum.

So you see Gabe... you do have more money to make. Cause I aint buying it until there are no dye's coming off (yes it wont affect anything but it is the principal of the thing. If I spend that much money on a block it darn well be perfect and have nothing coming off of it) and there is no more of this nonsense and plating aluminum.

EDIT: And your last sentence really concerns me as a consumer. If you stop caring about what we think and only care about your data...

Bun Bun, if you're desperate and gabe doesn't want to release a plastic or brass top for it, you still have option #3, get a top machined yourself, made from delrin and with the barbs at the corners Lets hope someone else gives everyone option #3 for us, because I think this thread is going to scare a LOT of people off...sorry gabe...I personally wouldn't mind but others do.

[Petra]

Lets hope someone else gives everyone option #3 for us

Just don't look at me for that one...

[serialk11r]

Just don't look at me for that one...

If I was >18 I would've done it...