Apogee GTX

[Plywood99]

Sure thing Mr Wizard, Already went to several Material Engineering sites, and they stressed the dangers of using plated AL in a corosive env.

I've yet to see pure coolant in a WC loop, viscosity is a tad to thick.

If that plating pops and come in direct contact with the copper in the presence of a electrolyte, your done.

andyc

Never answered my questions about mixed metals in cars and Koolance systems. And I said nothing about pure coolant. I said proper ratios...


Ply

[serialk11r]

What? Don't make me take out my mouthpiece and show you what I mean!!! Even crappy nickel plating is very durable, from what I see.

[Plywood99]

What? Don't make me take out my mouthpiece and show you what I mean!!! Even crappy nickel plating is very durable, from what I see.

Plating is very durable when properly done. And from what Gabe said, I believe the GTX will last a long time.

Ply

[serialk11r]

I don't see where there would be nearly enough friction to take the plating off the top, besides the threaded part. Even there, some PTFE tape will solve that problem.

[Plywood99]

I'll be clear. Your comment or analogy was directed to mixed metals in a cars WC loop in the thread I responded to. Those loops are protecting using pure or levels of coolant (Zerex, Pentosin, etc) not appropriate in a typical WC loop.

Mixed metals especially copper and AL in direct contact is asking for trouble. Those issues or concerns are valid. And PLATING as you referred to it, is suspect to chips to ware off or pop.

I simply stated it wasn't a good idea, the reasons why and that I wouldn't be buying one. For you to say "mixed metals isn't a issue and we should shut up" is invalid. And I gave evidence why.

As far as Koolance or other such systems, don't meet my standards. If they meet yours, enjoy.

andyc

JoeBar made a good point earlier in this thread. Plenty of foreign companies use aluminum in loops and you don't here a bunch of horror stories from them. Wonder why? Things being done properly.

And the mixed metals not an issue so shut up thing is very valid. Here a product, the GTX, just out on the market. Big thread people pissing and moaning. Has the product failed yet? No. Are there lines of angry people whose equipment is destroyed? No.

EDITED FOR CONTENT - PB


Ply

[serialk11r]

I'll be clear. Your comment or analogy was directed to mixed metals in a cars WC loop in the thread I responded to. Those loops are protecting using pure or levels of coolant (Zerex, Pentosin, etc) not appropriate in a typical WC loop.

Mixed metals especially copper and AL in direct contact is asking for trouble. Those issues or concerns are valid. And PLATING as you referred to it, is suspect to chips to ware off or pop.

I simply stated it wasn't a good idea, the reasons why and that I wouldn't be buying one. For you to say "mixed metals isn't a issue and we should shut up" is invalid. And I gave evidence why.

As far as Koolance or other such systems, don't meet my standards. If they meet yours, enjoy.

andyc

Looks like I'll have to take a pic for you...

[[cTx] Nooc]

you'd be hard-pressed to find on a person on this forum who recommended anything made of aluminum, blocks in particular, Ply. just accept the fact that you don't know enough about water cooling; it's pretty obvious from your comments on Koolance and aluminum

I'm using an ancient Koolance NB block and it's absolute , no question about it. It will be replaced by a zalman passive radiator in a few days. there's a piece of Koolance for you.

[serialk11r]

you'd be hard-pressed to find on a person on this forum who recommended anything made of aluminum, blocks in particular, Ply. just accept the fact that you don't know enough about water cooling; it's pretty obvious from your comments on Koolance and aluminum

I'm using an ancient Koolance NB block and it's absolute , no question about it. It will be replaced by a zalman passive radiator in a few days. there's a piece of Koolance for you.

Just in case you didn't know, Ply made his own block... out of copper .And it was a good one. And I'm sure he knows Koolance sucks. But I agree with him. Aluminum is yucky, but with nickel plating, the issue isn't corrosion. I do not understand why swiftech chose aluminum but well, that's their decision. I wouldn't get that block anyways, I don't think its worth it.

[grudgelord]

This thread was more fun when we were overclocking in spaaaaaaaaace.

[Mr. Peanut]

Can someone think of a better alternative to the aluminum? Copper and brass are more expensive, and derlin and lucite are hardly thermally conductive. Since the top is a heatsink, it has to be thermally conductive.

All this whine and no real thought has gone into a better way to do things.

[Budwise]

who cares if they top has tiny fins on it if they dont do squat. We need testing to show whether its even worth it first before we start looking at alternative metals. I honestly doubt it will make the slightest difference. If there is any performance to be gained i would put it on the inlet spacing, not the passive fins...

[serialk11r]

I have no clue why they used aluminum. I don't see any reason why aluminum should be used. That's one of the questions yet to be answered...

[Fossil]

Zinc plating can help reduce significant corrosion of alu even when the plating is scratched or penetrated - the zinc and alu are still in electrical contact and the zinc will still oxidize preferentially. I'm reasonably convinced that Swiftech's top poses no real risk of a corrosion disaster in the working life of a real block. Nevertheless, a copper top seems a more obvious choice.

It's possible that the alu+cu risks are somewhat overstated: if your water is de-ionized, and your alu has some sort of protective coating, the corrosion problem should be ... tractable. The life of a block is rarely more than a year or two. You have to look very carefully at the horror stories, question all the details and see how the problem arose.

Maybe if somebody were heating up tap-water in their loop they'd quickly see serious problems. Maybe they bought deionized water that wasn't, maybe there was a residual substance (such as flux) that contaminated their water...

What we do know is that there is a very small number of verified cases of mixed metal disaster in water-cooling loops but those few cases are 'sensational' enough to make an impact on everyone - despite the fact that more people probably lost kit to cracked Tt perspex blocks, o-rings damaged in mis-assembly, dodgy quick-fit connectors, and dead Mag2 pumps.

I'm not saying don't worry about mixed metals, just that in the case of this block the reaction is a little extreme. Swiftech did the best thing they could to protect the Alu, it's just not obvious why they chose to use it in the first place.

[Bun-Bun]

I have no clue why they used aluminum. I don't see any reason why aluminum should be used. That's one of the questions yet to be answered...

Looks, pure and simple. They wanted to make it look like Edelbrock valve covers and I think it does look good. I love the bling what can I say.

But that does not justify bringing Aluminum in contact with our loops. Now if they would have just put the aluminum on top and not have it contacting the water (like have a copper top and then just screw the aluminum on top of that as eye candy)... then I would be ok with it. I would even pay a little more for it. But as it stands I will never own this block because of the potential hazard it poses (which saddens me cause I really do like the looks of this block and would have purchased based on that over the D-Tek). Yes if the plating is good it should not corrode but guess what? Manufacturing processes are not perfect and defects can, no, will occur. To say they wont or to say none will make it past QC is a lie to the entire manufacturing community.

Zinc plating can help reduce significant corrosion of alu even when the plating is scratched or penetrated - the zinc and alu are still in electrical contact and the zinc will still oxidize preferentially. I'm reasonably convinced that Swiftech's top poses no real risk of a corrosion disaster in the working life of a real block. Nevertheless, a copper top seems a more obvious choice.

It's possible that the alu+cu risks are somewhat overstated: if your water is de-ionized, and your alu has some sort of protective coating, the corrosion problem should be ... tractable. The life of a block is rarely more than a year or two. You have to look very carefully at the horror stories, question all the details and see how the problem arose.

Maybe if somebody were heating up tap-water in their loop they'd quickly see serious problems. Maybe they bought deionized water that wasn't, maybe there was a residual substance (such as flux) that contaminated their water...

What we do know is that there is a very small number of verified cases of mixed metal disaster in water-cooling loops but those few cases are 'sensational' enough to make an impact on everyone - despite the fact that more people probably lost kit to cracked Tt perspex blocks, o-rings damaged in mis-assembly, dodgy quick-fit connectors, and dead Mag2 pumps.

I'm not saying don't worry about mixed metals, just that in the case of this block the reaction is a little extreme. Swiftech did the best thing they could to protect the Alu, it's just not obvious why they chose to use it in the first place.

Re-read Marci's post and reconsider your stand.

[Bun-Bun]

Well, its a block that I will be using, come this Saturday.

I haven't seen any pics of your setup's yet. I would be much interested in seeing some of your loops.

Let us know what you think of the GTX once you get it setup.

[Plywood99]

you'd be hard-pressed to find on a person on this forum who recommended anything made of aluminum, blocks in particular, Ply. just accept the fact that you don't know enough about water cooling; it's pretty obvious from your comments on Koolance and aluminum

I'm using an ancient Koolance NB block and it's absolute , no question about it. It will be replaced by a zalman passive radiator in a few days. there's a piece of Koolance for you.

Just answer this, why are there so many products out there that mix aluminum with copper and there are no problems.

Gigabyte 3d galaxy, copper block aluminum rad.
Alphacool
Aqua computer
Cooler Master aquagate series
Koolance

That's just off the top of my head. Now if there really is such a problem with corrosion there would be massive lawsuits against these companies. And by the way been water-cooling for some time, and have made many of my own blocks. Robotech even tested a early beta and found it to be quite good. And as I mentioned earlier, only had one problem with corrosion. And guess what, that one problem was totally my fault. I was short on coolant and too lazy to go to the store. Yup block corroded in just a few weeks. But that was MY mistake...


Ply

[Philly_Boy]

I like to post in these forums....I don not like to delete and modify posts.

Guys...please tone down your taunting and harsh words. My 14yo son trolls these forums...and I don't want to have to field questions on why this one is talking out of the side of his face. If this language continues I will close the thread...let's get back on topic...

Has anyone got a GTX yet? Tested? Mine is due any day...

[Fossil]

Re-read Marci's post and reconsider your stand.

This is a 'non' comment: total FUD. Instead of arguing a point you make a vague allusion to somebody else's post (without saying which one, one what subject) as if that somehow proves my entire 'stance' is wrong.

Perhaps you refer an ancient thread on Alu+Copper in loops that nobody has posted on in weeks? Perhaps you refer to the new one? Perhaps you refer to this thread? I have no way of knowing.

As for those self-destructing Swiftech blocks that were anodized Alu and a copper base that everyone complained had serious corrosion, they still lasted a year, and were still working when removed - and they were anodized not plated.

I'm talking about the general issue of Alu+Cu in loops, and you have to consider surface area and proximity: those blocks were probably approaching the absolute worst case possible. Unless you were going to (say) run a current through your coolant just to really try and get some ionization going?

Sure, non-ionic water becomes ionized with time. If you're going to run Alu+Cu it might be wise to replace that coolant often. Of course, if you also care about tube clouding or bacterial buildup, then you would be doing that anyway.

That said, I now have a 10% glycol mix in my pipes and they have gone the last three months without a hint of clouding or bacterial buildup. Guess I'm just lucky huh? Sure, I've lost some cooling efficiency, but as it happens I don't care because my machine was still stable in 40C ambient and has no overlock whatsoever. Maybe I'll worry about oclocks when I have my PAs.

However, I'm not running any mixed metals, unless you count the nickel plated barbs (lol) so I don't have a risk. Those people who installed the crazy anodized blocks should have known very well what risks they were taking, and when you go back and look at the outcome, they got a year of use of them before they became a genuine hazard (if you believe the posts), by which point they were approaching obsolete anyway - and still no catastrophic failure.

In the case of the GTX, as in the case of many other Alu+Cu combinations in a loop that could practically exist, and with appropriate coolant and maintenance, you should have no problem getting two or three years out of the setup. Do you expect this stuff to last forever? You don't expect your pump or your tubes to last like a cache of Pharoah's gold, why make unrealistic expectations of your cpu block? Chances are in two years Intel and Daamit will have moved the goalposts so far that your old block will be a poor performer anyway.

Let's see what happens a year from now when people have actually been running GTX blocks. We'll see how many had catastrophic plating failure. I anticipate that even when we do see examples of it, we can trace many of those failures back to mishandling of barbs, sloppy assembly, or dodgy coolant, and again I'll bet that's destroyed more kit than all the self-destructing anodized Alu+Cu blocks ever sold. I don't mean that there won't be any faulty manufacture, just that it will be such a minor contribution to the total failures as to be unworthy of consideration.

Sure, I'll bet the majority of posters on here haven't ever destroyed a block due to mis-assembly, but this forum isn't exactly representative of the people buying w/c kit. There are people out there who are actually surprised when their Tt gear wrecks their board. There are people out there getting dealers (who have never assembled a w/c loop in their lives) to fit their gear. There are people out there who try and wedge BSP fittings into NPSM threads, or use G type o-ring fittings where there is no o-ring lip, and so on...

I admit there's a good deal of 'speculation' in here, but it would appear that Swiftech have some numbers of their own for this stuff and they are prepared to speculate on the GTX Alu top not costing them a fortune in RMAs and lost customer confidence. Given their good record of customer service, it would seem fair to assume that they're not just expecting their customers to 'suck it up' when their (so called) military spec plating fails: they have budgeted for the failure rate, and with a block of this price and publicity profile that means they aren't expecting much in the way of failure.

[serialk11r]

Hey cool, I'm not the only crazy 14 year old eh? Well I'm not 13 yet, still got a few days to go And Philly Boy, I think your son already learned his share of stuff at school All kids do, sadly, and I am one of them...
Look, plating is very very durable. If I see one more BSish "the plating will come off!" I will show you my mouthpiece
Plating should be better than anodized btw...

[serialk11r]

I'm glad my 11 year old sees this forum and thinks I'm nuts, and he rather study than post on a watercooling forum. So I guess I'm lucky.

I'm just a crazy kid. I know someone who is like hella smart, and he is bored all the time. When I told him "go into computer crap" he said "no". lol. IanY, rejoice, your Pabst fans seem to be the best fans out there...

[Bun-Bun]

This is a 'non' comment: total FUD. Instead of arguing a point you make a vague allusion to somebody else's post (without saying which one, one what subject) as if that somehow proves my entire 'stance' is wrong.

Perhaps you refer an ancient thread on Alu+Copper in loops that nobody has posted on in weeks? Perhaps you refer to the new one? Perhaps you refer to this thread? I have no way of knowing.

As for those self-destructing Swiftech blocks that were anodized Alu and a copper base that everyone complained had serious corrosion, they still lasted a year, and were still working when removed - and they were anodized not plated.

I'm talking about the general issue of Alu+Cu in loops, and you have to consider surface area and proximity: those blocks were probably approaching the absolute worst case possible. Unless you were going to (say) run a current through your coolant just to really try and get some ionization going?

Sure, non-ionic water becomes ionized with time. If you're going to run Alu+Cu it might be wise to replace that coolant often. Of course, if you also care about tube clouding or bacterial buildup, then you would be doing that anyway.

That said, I now have a 10% glycol mix in my pipes and they have gone the last three months without a hint of clouding or bacterial buildup. Guess I'm just lucky huh? Sure, I've lost some cooling efficiency, but as it happens I don't care because my machine was still stable in 40C ambient and has no overlock whatsoever. Maybe I'll worry about oclocks when I have my PAs.

However, I'm not running any mixed metals, unless you count the nickel plated barbs (lol) so I don't have a risk. Those people who installed the crazy anodized blocks should have known very well what risks they were taking, and when you go back and look at the outcome, they got a year of use of them before they became a genuine hazard (if you believe the posts), by which point they were approaching obsolete anyway - and still no catastrophic failure.

In the case of the GTX, as in the case of many other Alu+Cu combinations in a loop that could practically exist, and with appropriate coolant and maintenance, you should have no problem getting two or three years out of the setup. Do you expect this stuff to last forever? You don't expect your pump or your tubes to last like a cache of Pharoah's gold, why make unrealistic expectations of your cpu block? Chances are in two years Intel and Daamit will have moved the goalposts so far that your old block will be a poor performer anyway.

Let's see what happens a year from now when people have actually been running GTX blocks. We'll see how many had catastrophic plating failure. I anticipate that even when we do see examples of it, we can trace many of those failures back to mishandling of barbs, sloppy assembly, or dodgy coolant, and again I'll bet that's destroyed more kit than all the self-destructing anodized Alu+Cu blocks ever sold. I don't mean that there won't be any faulty manufacture, just that it will be such a minor contribution to the total failures as to be unworthy of consideration.

Sure, I'll bet the majority of posters on here haven't ever destroyed a block due to mis-assembly, but this forum isn't exactly representative of the people buying w/c kit. There are people out there who are actually surprised when their Tt gear wrecks their board. There are people out there getting dealers (who have never assembled a w/c loop in their lives) to fit their gear. There are people out there who try and wedge BSP fittings into NPSM threads, or use G type o-ring fittings where there is no o-ring lip, and so on...

I admit there's a good deal of 'speculation' in here, but it would appear that Swiftech have some numbers of their own for this stuff and they are prepared to speculate on the GTX Alu top not costing them a fortune in RMAs and lost customer confidence. Given their good record of customer service, it would seem fair to assume that they're not just expecting their customers to 'suck it up' when their (so called) military spec plating fails: they have budgeted for the failure rate, and with a block of this price and publicity profile that means they aren't expecting much in the way of failure.

EDIT: Can not find the post atm... it was in this thread unless I just lost my mind... basically the jist is he has used a lot of different blocks that have had aluminum in them (anodized plated whatever) with proper additive and they all coroded within 18 months.

EDIT2: I apologize fossil. It was not in this thread I mixed them up. But here is the post (and thread) I was referring to.

Hard to tell what's solder and what isn't there...

My Swiftech blocks all ended up the same as yours despite running 10% Zerex / 90% distilled and flushing/refilling with fresh mixture every 6 months... MCW462, MCW5002, MCW20, MCW40... all the same... DD original Ali Top'd Maze4 likewise... Innovatek Rev3 CPU Block likewise...

All anodised... anti-corrosive additive used precisely to manufacturer's mix ratio for proper protection rather than clear-tubing... all still corroded within 18 months. The swiftech blocks ended up with corrosive pits around half a mm deep iirc... s'why back then I went with dangerden - no aluminium used at all...

Hey cool, I'm not the only crazy 14 year old eh? Well I'm not 13 yet, still got a few days to go And Philly Boy, I think your son already learned his share of stuff at school All kids do, sadly, and I am one of them...
Look, plating is very very durable. If I see one more BSish "the plating will come off!" I will show you my mouthpiece
Plating should be better than anodized btw...

Hey, serial, defects happen. Go grab a Quality Control and Statistics in manufacturing textbooks.

[Plywood99]

Hey, kid, defects happen. Go grab a Quality Control and Statistics in manufacturing textbooks.

Lol, kinda lame argument don't you think? Of course defects happen, in any industry. So what is your point???


Ply

[Bun-Bun]

Lol, kinda lame argument don't you think? Of course defects happen, in any industry. So what is your point???


Ply

Lame argument? I think not. I do not want to chance corrosion in my loop. The loop I am building I plan to run for 4 years with only the occasional coolant flush every couple months.

[Plywood99]

You know, what's really going to be cool, is a few months from now after the GTX has been out, and there will be no reports of corrosion from the plating "popping" off. And all the doom-sayers and naysayers will hop back on the ole soapbox and still proclaim it "could" happen.

Sheesh, I'm truly surprised you guys function in daily life...


Ply

[Bun-Bun]

You know, what's really going to be cool, is a few months from now after the GTX has been out, and there will be no reports of corrosion from the plating "popping" off. And all the doom-sayers and naysayers will hop back on the ole soapbox and still proclaim it "could" happen.

Sheesh, I'm truly surprised you guys function in daily life...


Ply

Few months sure... what about two years? Lets see then.

I function greatly in daily life... and let me tell you I don't replace things as often as other people do due to things like "wear" and "corrosion".