@ LukeXE:
There already IS a sub-cooler!
UPDATE @ diagramm (oilsep):
edit runmc - It is much more convient for everyone if you size you pictures. thanks
@ LukeXE:
There already IS a sub-cooler!
UPDATE @ diagramm (oilsep):
edit runmc - It is much more convient for everyone if you size you pictures. thanks
Last edited by runmc; 01-11-2007 at 03:55 PM.
+1 -> MytekcontrolsOriginally Posted by mytekcontrols
For what it's worth, Cryotek had told me that if I wanted more capacity out of my P-100, he'd actually have to BYPASS one of the stages (of course it would also bring temperatures up). I may be wrong since it was awhile back.....I'll give a Cryo-tek a call and see what he says.....Just curious, but what kind of temperatures and watt capacity are you after? I noticed that your system is a 2 cascade system, which is quite capable of very low temperature operation (assuming the load is small). So for instance, I'm guessing hypothetically that a 1hp 2 cascade system with Sub-Cooler, should be able to do -150C at around 30-50 watts. However as the wattage increases, a third cascade would probably be needed to maintain such temperatures
Check out this diagram and compare it to your own.But you talked about a 3rd stage ... so .. what do you mean? Sry don't understand what the subcooler has to do with a 3rd stage!
3 cascade drawing with subcooler (SLHX)
Notice that this has 1 more stage (cascade #3) preceeding the Sub-Cooler (yes as LukeXE pointed out, SLHX in your terminology), and a 3rd phase separator preceeding it.
Yes in order to go much colder then -120C you will have to (unless you like running your compressor suction in a vacuum, which I would not recommend). It is irrelevant to how many stages your cascade has, but mainly related to the lowest temperature you wish to achieve.I already (want to) use R14 + Argon!
It is possible to use the R-14/Argon combination in even the most basic single stage auto cascade. However don't expect to handle much more than just a couple of watts of evaporator heat load. It will also require running your compressor at a very high compressor discharge pressure vs. a very low suction pressure (high compression ratio), as well as taking much... much longer to pull down to operating temperature. What I am really trying to say here, is that using less stages with very low boiling point refrigerants, requires making the compressor do more work.
Or yet another way to describe it...
Having additional stages when using low boiling point refrigerants, creates a more efficient system, thereby requiring less work from the compressor. Of course this does have its limitations. At a certain point, and dependant on the number and types of refrigerants being used, adding additional stages will become redundant, and may actually hurt your performance. I guess a good rule of thumb would be to pay close attention to your compression ratio. If it requires considerably more then a 15-to-1 compression ratio to achieve your desired temperature (with a suction pressure in the range of 20-35 psi), or you are forced to run the compressor suction in a vacuum, then adding another phase separator and cascade should help. Assuming that your compressor is also of a high enough cfm for the task at hand (adding additional stages and lower boiling point refrigerants, will also impact on the required cfm needed to prevent the suction pressure from getting too high).
Yes he is correct. Of course you would also have to reduce the amount of Argon when doing so, and probably would not get nearly as cold. Although you would gain in the ability to handle more watts of heat load, while still maintaining a reasonable compression ratio. However If you didn't want to lose out on ultimate temperature, and still gain in system capacity (more watts), upping the compressor size would be a better way to go. Although this can only be taken so far until you would also be required to increase the flow capability (diameter increase) of your heat exchangers and cap tubes.For what it's worth, Cryotek had told me that if I wanted more capacity out of my P-100, he'd actually have to BYPASS one of the stages (of course it would also bring temperatures up). I may be wrong since it was awhile back.....I'll give a Cryo-tek a call and see what he says.....
Michael St. Pierre
- Worked 15 years for Polycold Systems
- Now Self-Employed
- Manufacture Heat Load Controllers
- Also do contract service work on Polycold units
Side note: I usually don't respond to PM's or emails regarding the projects that I post in the forums. I feel it's much more fair to all, to answer questions within the forum topics themselves.
@ mytekcontrols:
Thx for your answer!
I just didn't know what the 3rd stage has to do with the sub-coller (/ SLHX)!
Anyway .... depending on my datasheet I have here, the successor of my Rotary, the NE-41Y, has a "flow-power" of 7,11m³/h! Don't know if that's enough!elec. power is around 2,20 kW! ^^
Which temps can you think of with 3rd cascade/stage with this comp? and which other gasses would you add?
TIA!
EDIT: WTF is this nice little thing?
*KLICK*
regards
Patrick
Last edited by 404Power; 01-12-2007 at 06:43 AM.
The 3rd stage has nothing to do with the SLHX. The SLHX can be used on even a single stage auto cascade. As I talked about earlier in this thread, the SLHX (Sub-Cooler) is most benificial whenever you have a refrigerant in the mix, that due to temperature/pressure conditions, will never be liquidfied. The SLHX promotes the absorption of this unliquidfiable (is that a real word?) component into any liquid refrigerant passing through the SLHX. In our case Argon would be the unliquidfiable component, and R14 would be the predominate liquid passing through the SLHX. End result: R14/Argon (in solution) condensate boils off at considerably below -120C.I just didn't know what the 3rd stage has to do with the sub-cooler (/ SLHX)!
If I calculated this right, this would be the equivalent to 4.1 cfm. For -150C operation, I would suspect 100 watts would be the absolute best you could expect for heat load capacity (and that might be pushing it).Anyway .... depending on my datasheet I have here, the successor of my Rotary, the NE-41Y, has a "flow-power" of 7,11m³/h! Don't know if that's enough!
If I understand the first part of the question, I think I already answered it. As to the 2nd part about which gases... R23, R14, and Argon are going to be essential. As for the higher boiling components, as I have also mentioned, my favorites would be R123, R22, Ethane. I say this because I know for a fact that this combination works quite well. However if you would like to avoid the HCFC constituents, then substitute R600 for the R123, and R290 for the R22. I can't vouch for the performance utilizing these substitutes, but I would imagine you'll do ok. There are other ways to go in order to create a non-flammable zero ODP blend, but I really prefer to not say what this would be, since once again I am treading on trade secret information. And in this case specifically, I would be revealing information I was given concerning a patent that is still in effect.Which temps can you think of with 3rd cascade/stage with this comp? and which other gasses would you add?
This is the condensing unit from Polycold's now obsolete product called a P-20.WTF is this nice little thing?
This was a partially separated 2 stage auto cascade design that cryo-tek was trying to share towards the beginning of this thread.
Michael St. Pierre
- Worked 15 years for Polycold Systems
- Now Self-Employed
- Manufacture Heat Load Controllers
- Also do contract service work on Polycold units
Side note: I usually don't respond to PM's or emails regarding the projects that I post in the forums. I feel it's much more fair to all, to answer questions within the forum topics themselves.
Thanks for this very detailed answer!
Ah OK ... I see!If I calculated this right, this would be the equivalent to 4.1 cfm. For -150C operation, I would suspect 100 watts would be the absolute best you could expect for heat load capacity (and that might be pushing it).
If I understand the first part of the question, I think I already answered it.
I'll HAVE TO use R600(a) + R290 because R-22 and also R-123 are forbidden around here / very difficult to get!As to the 2nd part about which gases... R23, R14, and Argon are going to be essential. As for the higher boiling components, as I have also mentioned, my favorites would be R123, R22, Ethane. I say this because I know for a fact that this combination works quite well. However if you would like to avoid the HCFC constituents, then substitute R600 for the R123, and R290 for the R22. I can't vouch for the performance utilizing these substitutes, but I would imagine you'll do ok. There are other ways to go in order to create a non-flammable zero ODP blend, but I really prefer to not say what this would be, since once again I am treading on trade secret information. And in this case specifically, I would be revealing information I was given concerning a patent that is still in effect.
Thanks for your come back!This is the condensing unit from Polycold's now obsolete product called a P-20.
This was a partially separated 2 stage auto cascade design that cryo-tek was trying to share towards the beginning of this thread.
One more thing: I also have a Copeland Scroll air-conditioning comp around here!
Is this comp also useful for me? Don't think so!
regards
Patrick
404Power... Yes a blend of R600(a) + R290 + ethane + R23 + R14 + Argon (R740) should workAnd I think -140C @150 watts just might be achievable with the first compressor you mentioned (don't forget that the line connecting your chiller to the evap will probably account for at least 10 watts of this due to insulation losses).
I don't think so eitherOne more thing: I also have a Copeland Scroll air-conditioning comp around here! The problem is that this scroll comp has an internal bypass valve which opens @ a HD/ND ratio of 1:10! --> 1bar @ suction / above 10bar @ discharge --> bypass valve opens!
Is this comp also useful for me? Don't think so! What's your opinion?
Last edited by mytekcontrols; 01-12-2007 at 09:43 AM.
Michael St. Pierre
- Worked 15 years for Polycold Systems
- Now Self-Employed
- Manufacture Heat Load Controllers
- Also do contract service work on Polycold units
Side note: I usually don't respond to PM's or emails regarding the projects that I post in the forums. I feel it's much more fair to all, to answer questions within the forum topics themselves.
In the USA at least 110volt is the norm though and I'm not one to spend alot on anything, I constantly ebay. If your only aiming for a -100C range what sort of load might be plausible with a 1hp range compressor (Reciprocating preferably.)
If you have a cooling question or concern feel free to contact me.
I'd say the compressor is worth some thing to you! Make a heat pump!
FYI Noob, higher voltage motors are more efficient and less costly to run in the long term, hence why most ACs and large equipment are 240- 660. The last company I was with had 1Kv starters and motors running at 760V massive Hp in the 3 zerro range if I recall, ran a massive hydrulic system.
Bring back natural selection! No more warning lables!
The one and Only MG Pony
Yeah but being in the USA its very hard to get 220volt, at least for me.
If you have a cooling question or concern feel free to contact me.
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-TECUMSEH-1hp...QQcmdZViewItem
That should make one helluva unit....
Ah I meant not 220volt compressors, thats incredibly easy. But 220volt power.
If you have a cooling question or concern feel free to contact me.
Do as I do....bench in the laundry room
OT: It's about time Fugger gets these forums on an Opteron setup...Obviously, his Clovertowns suck...
is this a respons to another post?
Well he's talking about 1+ hp compressors, and I'm just chatting about not having 220v to use these. The laundry room is always good and dandy though but a pain at least for me.
If you have a cooling question or concern feel free to contact me.
extension cord?
Hmmm now I'm thinking on that, but the hole premise of plugging into my drier room makes both the idea of using, OR selling, a complication.
If you have a cooling question or concern feel free to contact me.
Every home in the USA has a 120/240 volt entrance. Now if you have natural gas also for major appliances such as gas dryer,gas water heater,gas stove you may not have 240 volt outlets. but the there is 240 volt in the main panel,phase to phase=240 volt............. phase to ground=120v........if your major appliances are electric they are 240v.
single phase service(entrance) panels have 3 wires.......... 2 hot & 1 neutral, plus a solid copper wire going to a least 1 ground rod......most residential services are 100 amp or 200 amp. A apartment building may have a larger entrance broken down into individual meters or large building say in a city is a different story they will have 3 phase power but still only wire 120/240 to apartments, the third leg(wire) or high leg along with the 2 low legs are used to power industrial equipment.
The Laws of Thermodynamics say:
Zeroth Law: "You must play the game."
First Law: "You can't win."
Second Law: "You can't break even."
Third Law: "You can't quit the game."
Do you wanna Play Thermodynamics ????????
Wire a electrical outlet with 240 volt to your room or where ever you want 240 volt. Do it like a pro,cut hole in wall ,run wire,install receptacle & cover,install breaker, Turn On
The Laws of Thermodynamics say:
Zeroth Law: "You must play the game."
First Law: "You can't win."
Second Law: "You can't break even."
Third Law: "You can't quit the game."
Do you wanna Play Thermodynamics ????????
I have to laugh
... may I ask why technical engineering information is not added to the drawings,Even, basic cap tube sizes...Well this drawing seems to have cap tube sizes clearly written on it:
This was posted at:http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=101204
I think s7e9h3n is more qualified to answer this question, since he owns a working 1hp auto cascade system, and has been testing it under real world conditions.n00b 0f l337 asked... If your only aiming for a -100C range what sort of load might be plausible with a 1hp range compressor
Michael St. Pierre
- Worked 15 years for Polycold Systems
- Now Self-Employed
- Manufacture Heat Load Controllers
- Also do contract service work on Polycold units
Side note: I usually don't respond to PM's or emails regarding the projects that I post in the forums. I feel it's much more fair to all, to answer questions within the forum topics themselves.
These numbers are from Cryo-tek's testing:
Load, Inlet, head, out, suc/dis
0 w, -123c, -123c, -123c, 13/145
50 w, -121c, -121c, -121c, 15/175
100 w, -121c, -120c, -120c, 18/185
150 w, -119c, -117c, -116c, 20/200
200 w, 116c, -100c, - 112c, 23/225
Remember, though, this is a 3 stager
OT: By the way mytek....I've been trying to get ahold of cryo-tek for the couple of days so we could discuss starbucksbut it seems he's been occupied in meetings and other business stuff...expect an email from me as soon as I get in touch with him
Ya when I had my counter top stove installed I got them to leave an additional 3 feet of wire slack and picked up a 60amp disconnect 2*30 duble pole, or in other words 30Amp per phase or what ever fuse you put in up to a max of 30Amp per phase. That box will controll a standerd 240V socket and the third phase will be to power a NEMA 20 socket.
Bit of planning and you can have a very capable and safe to code install that suplies you 240 and 120 @ 20Amp. I personaly over size the wire for the breaker to ensure a very safe loading capacity, if the breaker is for 20amp use wire capable of 30amp and this gurentees the wire under full load will never be near its max capacity.
Bring back natural selection! No more warning lables!
The one and Only MG Pony
Following the NEC is sufficient,but of course you may have to add wire gage for very long runs, usually between 150 and 200 feet or longer(depending on actual load) you need to add for line losses & be sure your under the maximum rated temperature.All is covered in the NEC.
#12 wire is sufficient for 20 amps,.....#10 for 30 amps
The Laws of Thermodynamics say:
Zeroth Law: "You must play the game."
First Law: "You can't win."
Second Law: "You can't break even."
Third Law: "You can't quit the game."
Do you wanna Play Thermodynamics ????????
but of course it never hurts to have it slightly over sized, gives you head room should the breaker ever fuse in the on possition (Have seen it happen on odd inductive loads) this way either the breaker melts or the machine does but not the wire inbetween. never too safe when it comes to electricity.
Bring back natural selection! No more warning lables!
The one and Only MG Pony
@ mytekcontrols:
What about the amounts of the gasses?
How much kg's of R14 for example do you think will I need for this unit?
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