is ati and nvidia milking us?

[Skratch]

I just sat here thinking about it and noticed they just keep on upping the prices and not really giving us what there asking for in performance.

I can remember when the vodoo cards came out and wiped the compitition away and they were not over 250 buck then vodoo 2 was around 300

that was fine then because they actually looked better than anything else.

I bought a 9700 for 300 and was the best card out when I bought it.that card kicked ass and for the first time in a while I said hey this card is worth it.

then the x800 came out and I droped some big doe and barely saw a difference.

now the top line cards are in the 600+ what the heck is going on here....theres a new card every 6-8 months and the prices keep increasing?

soon the top end cards will be 1k if this continues

just for reference 13 years ago I bought a brand new compaq 486 25mhz with 4 megs of ram,120 mg hard dirve and no cdrom and no sound card for 1400 with a 14in svga monitor...if that trend continued we would be paying 10k for a system now

walk into best buy now with 1400 bucks and your walking out with a conroe running beast.

these video cards are getting out of hand.I dropped almost 400 for my last card and now dx10 will be out soon and need to drop 600 to run it.

then comes dx10.1 and need another new card.

Im suprised the goverment hasnt come in and yell at the video card makers,because this is getting rediculus

[patrickadizzle]

It's a high end enthusiast market, and there will always be more then enough people willing to pay top dollar, and as long as that continues prices aren't going to just rapidly drop.

[Starscream]

ATi and Nvidia are both commercial companys and will ask as much for their product as they think we are willing to pay.

alot of people in the last few years have been complaining about the growing prices but the fault isnt completely with ATI or Nvidia as like said they r commercial companys and wanna make as much cash as possible. The fault is with the many customers that are willing to pay those high prices, if less people would pay such high prices the companys would be less willing ot ask such high prices.

that tech keeps developing (from dx9 to dx10 and soon to dx10.1) is only a normal process.
When you paid 400 for ur dx9 card nobody was forcing you to buy a 400 dollar/euro card. Also back then you could have known that the first Dx10 cards would be out around now.
And as you urself said Dx10.1 cards should also arrive in the not so distant future.

nobody is forcing you to buy an expensive high-end card of each of these dx versions.

i can understand that alot of people dont like the prices of the high-end hardware (i also dont like it) but you are making it sound asif you have to buy a new grafix card every few months wich you dont.

with lil research you can usually predict when Nvidia and ATi come with their new tech and with their refreshes etc.
Some people buy a new card with each new tech or each refresh but most dont, most people skip 1 gen or a refresh or the first cards of a new tech or simply wait for prices ot drop or simply buy mid-range cards.

I am completely agreeing on the fact that hardware keeps getting more and more expensive wich sucks ass but nobody is putting a gun to your head to buy something and the choice to buy wich grafix card when is completely your own.

[Skratch]

I can remember when top end cards were 450...they should of stayed there for a while.

the r600 will prolly launch at 700 and take 2 years to get into the 350 range by then r700 will be out and around 800+

take a look at intel they have a chip that is faster than amd at the moment and are charging less money for it.If they wanted to they could up the prices on the e6400,6600 chips they are blowing away 600 dollar amd chips and are half the price

lol

check out what Ifound when I googles nvidia and ati charging too much

Nvidia, AMD accused of conspiracy to keep graphics pricing high

Antitrust litigation pours in

By INQUIRER staff: Friday 08 December 2006, 18:23
Click here to find out more!
A FLURRY OF ANTITRUST CLASS actions (code 410) has started in the USA against Nvidia, ATI and AMD.

It never rains but it pours, but this is a blizzard of people with many joining in an antitrust action accusing the firms of manipulating prices.

Summons were issued by one Trong Nguyen on behalf of himself and others against Nvidia, ATI, and AMD. Lots of other plaintiffs have joined in, following news that ATI and Nvidia received summons from the Department of Justice (DoJ) for unspecified reasons, as we reported on the 1st of December, here. Intel did not receive a subpoena from the DoJ. It does not make discrete graphics processor units and hasn't done for quite a while.

The allegation is that Nvidia, ATI and AMD conspired to manipulate graphics card pricing, while the filing seen by the INQ said the DoJ has demanded a heap of data going back to the late 1990s.

The allegations cite sources saying that the price points of graphics cards are practically always the same - at around $500 for the top end stuff.

The allegation is the defendants and co-conspirators "have engaged in a contract combination, trust or conspiracy, the effect of which was to raise the prices at which they sold graphics processing units and cards to artificially inflated levels."

Executives of the company are also alleged to have had meetings and conversations to discuss pricing of graphics processing units and cards

looks like im not the only one who noticed the huge milking these guys were making

[Der_KHAN]

in early 2001 a friend of mine spent $600 on a geforce2 ultra. that's not exactly cheaper than a 8800GTX

and by now the X1950XTX, a very fast card, is down to only $330. looks good to me.

i don't see a problem. if current video cards are too expensive for you than you'll just have to wait 6months for them to get cheaper.

i believe ati and nvidia put a hell of an effort into the research of new technologies. how else could a new video card outperform the older generation by a factor of 2x? if they produce high end hardware, they need high end revenues to fund further research. it's as simple as that.

[Skratch]

in early 2001 a friend of mine spent $600 on a geforce2 ultra. that's not exactly cheaper than a 8800GTX

and by now the X1950XTX, a very fast card, is down to only $330. looks good to me.

i don't see a problem. if current video cards are too expensive for you than you'll just have to wait 6months for them to get cheaper.

i believe ati and nvidia put a hell of an effort into the research of new technologies. how else could a new video card outperform the older generation by a factor of 2x? if they produce high end hardware, they need high end revenues to fund further research. it's as simple as that.

your prices are a little different than ours.We had that card for half what your friend payed.

ati and nvidia keep puttting out cards that dont really give a huge boost but up the prices like your getting 3x the performance.

just look at the flagships for both.there up there in price and a few months later they release a refresh with 15 more mhz and a new shinny heat sink and up the price again another 80 bucks

and so on and so on with VERY little inprovments

we know we can get the normal one and overclock it but what about the poor kid that just gets whats best avai and keeps it stock

[Der_KHAN]

ati and nvidia keep puttting out cards that dont really give a huge boost but up the prices like your getting 3x the performance.

what are you talking about? the 8800GTX costs roughly the same as the 7900GTX did at launch. but it's more than twice as fast.

ati released a refresh of the X1900XTX that's like 10% faster but cost like 20% less than its predecessor did at launch.

its a miracle to me that ati and nv make profit at all.

[Spacehead]

And not to mention that actually some people are so stupid that they are willing to spend 400 dollars for getting their cards overclocked to 300 dollar card level
This milking sucks.

Why to release X1950Pro AND X1950XT to the same price range. It was a mistake to trust ATI.

[Skratch]

well if there being investigated for antitrust laws maybe some of you like paying 800 bucks for a new card

im not talking about arch jumps like r500-r600 that is a justifiable jump(and should ve 500 bucks tops)what about all the crap they put out in between those cards?

theres so many cards in between that are not worth what they are charging

a top of the line card should not cost you over 500 bucks even if its a brand new arch like the g80s

all the other cards before should drop to under 200 bucks like the old days

they are being investigated now so you should expect the r600 to launch well under what the g80 did

[nn_step]

not really, you can buy wonderful high end cards for around $300 still

[Skratch]

not really, you can buy wonderful high end cards for around $300 still

really vista hits the streets and you basically have to drop 6 bills right off the bat

where are the 300 dollar lower end cards THAT SHOULD BE OUT that support dx10

all the old tech should be sub 200 now and new low-med-high cards should be out

just like the old days

there should be a 300 dx10 and a 400 mid rang and an all out power house at 500 the way there going it looks like there starting where the last top end was and starting from there.if this keeps up you can expect to pay 1200 for a top end card in 2-3 years

you dont see intel doing this with there cpus because they know they will get sued...they have a huge power advatage over AMD right now and are cheaper

if this was nvidea or ati they would rise the prises even more

[nn_step]

really vista hits the streets and you basically have to drop 6 bills right off the bat

where are the 300 dollar lower end cards THAT SHOULD BE OUT that support dx10

all the old tech should be sub 200 now and new low-med-high cards should be out

just like the old days

there should be a 300 dx10 and a 400 mid rang and an all out power house at 500 the way there going it looks like there starting where the last top end was and starting from there.if this keeps up you can expect to pay 1200 for a top end card in 2-3 years

you dont see intel doing this with there cpus because they know they will get sued...they have a huge power advatage over AMD right now and are cheaper

if this was nvidea or ati they would rise the prises even more

Name ONE DX10 ONLY game out that you want to play

[Skratch]

Name ONE DX10 ONLY game out that you want to play

thats not the point my friend even the goverment picked up on what i have noticed and is sueing them for it

they have been ripping us off and got gought even having meetings (ATI and NVIDIA)on what they should charge the consumers and priced gauged each other

I can remember when the best of the best weather it was 3dfx quad chip vodooo 6,ati,matrox,nvidea that the top end was no more than 400 and that 400 got you number one on the orb.It was like that for years and up until 2 years ago when the prices started skyrocketing between both camps

[nn_step]

thats not the point my friend even the goverment picked up on what i have noticed and is sueing them for it

they have been ripping us off and got gought even having meetings (ATI and NVIDIA)on what they should charge the consumers and priced gauged each other

I can remember when the best of the best weather it was 3dfx quad chip vodooo 6,ati,matrox,nvidea that the top end was no more than 400 and that 400 got you number one on the orb.It was like that for years and up until 2 years ago when the prices started skyrocketing between both camps

so a large part of your claim is that the only cards that support a feature, have an outrageous price (not really but just for the sake of argument) well big deal. No one said you had to pay it and no one even said you are required to have it to do ANYTHING. Wait a month or two and you'll see the price drop because of low demand (because it costs too much to consider) that is how capitalism works. R&D is uber expensive and yes we are charged much more than it costs to manufacture it (A Conroe costs about $13 to make so are you going to sue Intel for ripping off the customer?)

[Skratch]

so a large part of your claim is that the only cards that support a feature, have an outrageous price (not really but just for the sake of argument) well big deal. No one said you had to pay it and no one even said you are required to have it to do ANYTHING. Wait a month or two and you'll see the price drop because of low demand (because it costs too much to consider) that is how capitalism works. R&D is uber expensive and yes we are charged much more than it costs to manufacture it (A Conroe costs about $13 to make so are you going to sue Intel for ripping off the customer?)

A conroe does NOT cost 13 to make. My mom was given a chance to work for intel and just there payroll in the labs blows that number out the water.

think of it this way what would happen if all of a sudden you saw 2 psu companies go bash it out and were the only ones left.then soon after the prices went up 75-80% from 3 years earlier?

thats basically what happened(but both worked together behind our backs)

ATI and Nvidea are the only top dogs left and they ran the market for what they wanted.

I have waited a month or 2 and the prices are still up there...
why are you ignoring the anti trust lawsuit I posted ?

[nn_step]

skratch I guess I can't convince you of the truth. ATi at no Time has ever directly participated in Price fixing, beyond the normal margins of the market. If you don't believe me, go over to newegg and grab a x1900xt for $199.99 + Shipping.

[Skratch]

skratch I guess I can't convince you of the truth. ATi at no Time has ever directly participated in Price fixing, beyond the normal margins of the market. If you don't believe me, go over to newegg and grab a x1900xt for $199.99 + Shipping.

thats fine I guess you cant see what im saying...let me ask you this if R600 is 10% faster than the g80 will you drop 700 on it?

see ATI and nvdia are alegidly busted for doing these things...ever wonder why both cards are so close and go back and forth untill a major arch is out

maybe just maybe they planned it that way....gee I dono but they are accused by it and will be in court soon

believe what you want even the sli setups were setup to do the same to the consumer

10 bucks says the r600 will be 10% faster and then 2 months later nvidea will come out with a 10% lead and charge 800 so on and so on ...that is what has been going on...I guess you just cant see it

[nn_step]

Nope, I'd only buy the R600 if I could get it under $500. Kinda like when the X1950XTX came out.

[ewitte]

Seriously if the government was involved and became too much of a hastle yes they would be cheaper. It would also take a lot longer for progress and might even keep them from improving at all. There used to be tons of video card makers and the costs have drove them all out of the market. These cards are expensive because they are expensive to make. We don't have any mid range DX10 cards yet because they have to get it working on cheaper electronics (smaller die, etc) and wait for their costs to drop. The ultra high end cards are there to pave the way for the cheaper cards 3-4 months later. They are not supposed to be there for everyone to buy at reasonable prices.

And the 8800GTX is a HUGE performance increase over last generation. Its easily beating out even SLI/Crossfire in a lot of situations. Especailly when you start cranking up AA/AF/HDR. I get more than twice the performance in the majority of modern games compared to my X1800XTX.

[ewitte]

BTW DX10 hardware capable or not there currently isn't working DX10 even in Beta yet. You can't even get a Vista driver that allows you to go over about 1280x1024 let alone 3d for any of the 8800 cards. As of right now if you have a 8800 card running Vista your stuck with Microsoft's supervga driver which gets a performance rating of 1.0.

[perry_78]

A conroe does NOT cost 13 to make. My mom was given a chance to work for intel and just there payroll in the labs blows that number out the water.

think of it this way what would happen if all of a sudden you saw 2 psu companies go bash it out and were the only ones left.then soon after the prices went up 75-80% from 3 years earlier?

thats basically what happened(but both worked together behind our backs)

ATI and Nvidea are the only top dogs left and they ran the market for what they wanted.

I have waited a month or 2 and the prices are still up there...
why are you ignoring the anti trust lawsuit I posted ?

Please, please, leave R&D out of it

Actual costs are not that high..

[s e t h]

[rant

its the inflation rates ppl...your government is lying to you just like everyone elses politicians...between them and the banks they suck the life out of any economy.

what cost $250 a few years ago has indeed doubled in price...any savings you had have halved in purchasing power.
just check housing prices, car prices, oil prices...better yet try find out how fast the banks have been printing money against the consumer assets = you!
(btw in the US they no longer publish how much money they print...a bit odd for supposedly transparent civilisation)
if you're lucky you have some assets to inflate along with the money supply.

if not...sorry...you loose!

its the same everywhere in the corporate empire = you'll know you're in it if your country has a privately held central bank, a legal system franchised to the english bar and a bad habbit of killing for profit or being friends with those that do.

/rant

[ewitte]

Please, please, leave R&D out of it

Actual costs are not that high..

R&D is a big part of it. But even material costs, equipment and electricity is a lot higher than it was for cards just 5 years ago. I'd be willing to bet it costs more than 2-3 times to produce a card than it did around 2000. Maybe even as much as 5 times. Especially considering almost every raw material over just the last few years has skyrocketed in price due to inflation. Prices and the economies have suffered a lot since 911 where we were already having a tough time. Though somewhat lower now Gold, silver and even copper went up A LOT in just the last 2-3 years. To give you an idea it was costing more than 1c to produce pennies not to long ago. They only produce them because they know people would pay for top notch performance. If people were not buying at a profit they would not build it.

[nn_step]

R&D is a big part of it. But even material costs, equipment and electricity is a lot higher than it was for cards just 5 years ago. I'd be willing to bet it costs more than 2-3 times to produce a card than it did around 2000. Maybe even as much as 5 times. Especially considering almost every raw material over just the last few years has skyrocketed in price due to inflation. Prices and the economies have suffered a lot since 911 where we were already having a tough time. Though somewhat lower now Gold, silver and even copper went up A LOT in just the last 2-3 years. To give you an idea it was costing more than 1c to produce pennies not to long ago. They only produce them because they know people would pay for top notch performance. If people were not buying at a profit they would not build it.

exactly, however the statement of Conroe's manufacturing cost is just for the materials, processing, and labor. Not the R&D, which soaks up almost the rest of the money

[Soulburner]

Wait, you went from a 9700 to an X800 and saw no difference? Sell your computer.

But seriously, of course they are milking all the money they can out of the market. They do deliver the goods but at a much higher price than it costs to produce them.