AMD K8L ES coming in December

[GoThr3k]

Uhm...I really really doubt K8L aka. Stars was started just after K8. In that case its an insanely slow development team for an evolutionized design. The only wider cache seems to be the L1. And even if the L2 is, then we gotta consider the new 20 cycle latency standard they introduced. Also very improved? You gonna be hold up on that. I would call Core 2 very improved over Core 1. K8L only holds a small handful of enchancements when compared to K8.

So unless you got something to add to the list of improvements I don´t see them anywhere.

Lets try put up a list here, for Core 2 to be around 20% faster than Core 1 it needed:
1 extra simple decoder
1 extra issue port
Bigger buffers here and there
128bit vs 64bit paths
Memory disambiguation
1+1 faster decode rate
1 extra ALU
2 extra SSE units
Single cycle SSE
Macro fusion (32bit only tho)
4 FP units vs 1 (Tho 4 simpler)
Larger L2 cache
Direct L1 links

Now, lets look on K8L vs K8:
Memory disambiguation
128bit vs 64bit paths
Single cycle SSE
Bigger buffers here and there
L3 cache

Anything you want to add?

wel first of all,Core1 isnt K8
you cannot know what impact every change has on a different architecture,the larger prefetch may not result in a big performance boost on core1 but it MAY result in a big advantage for a K8
we just dont know enough about the different architecture to compare i think,we will just have to wait for benches and hope that AMD can compete with intel,otherwise 2007 will be a boring year ,and no competition means high prices

[Shintai]

we just dont know enough about the different architecture to compare i think,we will just have to wait for benches and hope that AMD can compete with intel,otherwise 2007 will be a boring year ,and no competition means high prices

Thats very true. Tho, there will always be competition. Even if it aint with highend 500-999$ parts.

[nn_step]

wel first of all,Core1 isnt K8
you cannot know what impact every change has on a different architecture,the larger prefetch may not result in a big performance boost on core1 but it MAY result in a big advantage for a K8
we just dont know enough about the different architecture to compare i think,we will just have to wait for benches and hope that AMD can compete with intel,otherwise 2007 will be a boring year ,and no competition means high prices

yes but Core 1 is Yohan which is just a slightly improved Pentium M.
K8 was a direct competitor with Pentium M, thus K8L should get a similar performance increase

[informal]

I hate to quote you again,but it seems i need to.

Link? I only seen Q3 for Server and Q1 2008 for desktop. Perhaps you think on regular K8 quadcores and not K8L? Or perhaps just AM2+ versions of K8.

What are those K8 based quad cores?
AMD said loud and clear that the only native approach to quad cores is New Core arch.Not K8.So you need to read some stuff before posting.
And what are AM2+ versions of K8???Tsk,tsk,tsk

[Turtle 1]

wel first of all,Core1 isnt K8
you cannot know what impact every change has on a different architecture,the larger prefetch may not result in a big performance boost on core1 but it MAY result in a big advantage for a K8
we just dont know enough about the different architecture to compare i think,we will just have to wait for benches and hope that AMD can compete with intel,otherwise 2007 will be a boring year ,and no competition means high prices

Well normally I would agree. But Intel has shown to me anyway that. They(intel) Is forcing lower prices. I hope K8L is 20% faster than Conroe. I would very much like to see what AMD does with prices if they are the performance leader. I see what it has meant for all of us with Intel as the performance leader. The proof is in the pudding Intel lowered prices. Amd has not shown me that they will lower prices when they(AMD) leads in performance.

[Shintai]

I hate to quote you again,but it seems i need to.



What are those K8 based quad cores?
AMD said loud and clear that the only native approach to quad cores is New Core arch.Not K8.So you need to read some stuff before posting.
And what are AM2+ versions of K8???Tsk,tsk,tsk

You only want to get into a flamefest eh? Again, did I state it as a fact?

And if you want to keep nagging over it. Why don´t you start answering what I asked first. or its a oneway thing?

and very improved architecture compared to old K8.So we shouldn't be surprised if New Core shows massive performance imrovement.It was built for that purpouse,and built for a long time(development probably started by the time of K8 introduction).

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&postcount=698

Now tell us all the VERY improved parts that will show MASSIVE performance improvements. And please show where it was buildt for that specific task. For me it looks more like a more sockets, better RAS, higher memory ability core with a sudden addon of a few tweaks to counter the new threat.

And your 20% from L3 is also abit out in the water. So don´t try and act beyond your abilities.

[SkunK]

Well normally I would agree. But Intel has shown to me anyway that. They(intel) Is forcing lower prices. I hope K8L is 20% faster than Conroe. I would very much like to see what AMD does with prices if they are the performance leader. I see what it has meant for all of us with Intel as the performance leader. The proof is in the pudding Intel lowered prices. Amd has not shown me that they will lower prices when they(AMD) leads in performance.

What the hell price has to do with this thread topic?

You want to talk prices? Let's talk prices. Most frequent users on these forums are not the average buyers (and they constitute an extremely small portion of revenues for AMD or Intel). In fact many of the "fantastic" results we see especially in the Intel section are from people who don't even pay one single cent for their stuff.

Now let's talk about the guy who want to buy a computer and doesn't know anything about xtremesystems and such. He could end up buying a Dell which now sells AMD systems for cheap (part of the reason why Intel was so dominent in its sale was because it had a real tight monopoly with companies like Dell but that's changing now. I've read somewhere that AMD had an 80% market share for retail boxes but that didn't compensate for the deal with the "big boys"). Or he could end up buying at NewEgg or a local store. Now the guy wants to get the best deal he can. He doesn't know squat about overclocking and thinks that if he tries to overclock his house will catch on fire. He sees this:

AM2 X2 3800+ (2ghz): 139$
Intel C2D E6300 (1.86ghz): 186$

(EWWWWW)
Asus M2N-E: 92.99$
Asus P5NSLI: 104.99$

What do you think the average price conscious consumer will do (and is doing, actually)?

[Shintai]

Now let's talk about the guy who want to buy a computer and doesn't know anything about xtremesystems and such. He could end up buying a Dell which now sells AMD systems for cheap (part of the reason why Intel was so dominent in its sale was because it had a real tight monopoly with companies like Dell but that's changing now. I've read somewhere that AMD had an 80% market share for retail boxes but that didn't compensate for the deal with the "big boys"). Or he could end up buying at NewEgg or a local store. Now the guy wants to get the best deal he can. He doesn't know squat about overclocking and thinks that if he tries to overclock his house will catch on fire. He sees this:

AM2 X2 3800+ (2ghz): 139$
Intel C2D E6300 (1.86ghz): 186$

(EWWWWW)
Asus M2N-E: 92.99$
Asus P5NSLI: 104.99$

What do you think the average price conscious consumer will do (and is doing, actually)?

The E6300 is actually 160$...
http://www.stalliontek.com/ProductDe...C2D%2DE6300OEM
And you wanna use a X2 4200+ to match it, and there is cheaper and better solutions if you want cheap than nForce boards...And if it was price only, there is still the 50$ Via board.

[SkunK]

That Shintai is kinda funny. He wants. Err, he demands answers from everyone and yet he's unable to answer any question. But maybe he's right. Nobody would really care about what his answers might be.

[Shintai]

Well normally I would agree. But Intel has shown to me anyway that. They(intel) Is forcing lower prices. I hope K8L is 20% faster than Conroe. I would very much like to see what AMD does with prices if they are the performance leader. I see what it has meant for all of us with Intel as the performance leader. The proof is in the pudding Intel lowered prices. Amd has not shown me that they will lower prices when they(AMD) leads in performance.

Well we already saw how the prices was kept up doing the 939 reign. Only to be massively slashed with Core 2. So its been a milking the cow for the resources they need to keep the fight on when the cow died.

So call me sceptical. But if say, K8L destroys Core 2/3 like K8 did with the P4. Then its high prices again.

[nn_step]

He sees this:

AM2 X2 3800+ (2ghz): 139$
Intel C2D E6300 (1.86ghz): 186$

(EWWWWW)
Asus M2N-E: 92.99$
Asus P5NSLI: 104.99$

What do you think the average price conscious consumer will do (and is doing, actually)?

Actually
AM2 3800+ x2 $122.00 (shipped)
but you got the rest of the prices right

[SkunK]

The E6300 is actually 160$...
http://www.stalliontek.com/ProductDe...C2D%2DE6300OEM
And you wanna use a X2 4200+ to match it, and there is cheaper and better solutions if you want cheap than nForce boards...And if it was price only, there is still the 50$ Via board.

The average buyer won't buy at "back alley" stores like stalliontek. And as far as the choices I submitted, I chose those with the highest ratings/numbers shown at NewEgg. Nothing scientific about my demonstration. I just did a quick search at the most popular online store in America.

[Turtle 1]

What the hell price has to do with this thread topic?

You want to talk prices? Let's talk prices. Most frequent users on these forums are not the average buyers (and they constitute an extremely small portion of revenues for AMD or Intel). In fact many of the "fantastic" results we see especially in the Intel section are from people who don't even pay one single cent for their stuff.

Now let's talk about the guy who want to buy a computer and doesn't know anything about xtremesystems and such. He could end up buying a Dell which now sells AMD systems for cheap (part of the reason why Intel was so dominent in its sale was because it had a real tight monopoly with companies like Dell but that's changing now. I've read somewhere that AMD had an 80% market share for retail boxes but that didn't compensate for the deal with the "big boys"). Or he could end up buying at NewEgg or a local store. Now the guy wants to get the best deal he can. He doesn't know squat about overclocking and thinks that if he tries to overclock his house will catch on fire. He sees this:

AM2 X2 3800+ (2ghz): 139$
Intel C2D E6300 (1.86ghz): 186$

(EWWWWW)
Asus M2N-E: 92.99$
Asus P5NSLI: 104.99$

What do you think the average price conscious consumer will do (and is doing, actually)?

Prices were mentioned in the post I ans. It was AMD that kept prices high when they had the performance lead. Intel lowered prices when they took back the crown. AMD has nothing that competes with intel c2d. Don't forget Intel is lowering prices even further in 2nd qt. You might think that $139 for X2 3800 is a good price but 6 months ago when most were sold AMD was raping people at a $300price. Many many people said that $300 X2 3800 was worth the money. So I would say that if you debate that a $50 differance in price between X2-3800 Vs. E 6300 is a ripe off. Lets go read the pre conroe threads and see what was said.
Dell is now selling AMD cpu's but Dell is no2. HP is no.1 and they been selling AMD's for along time. Lets wait for the qt. reports on sells for this qt. and the next befor we decide what the consumer is buying. OK!


This is what you said.

(part of the reason why Intel was so dominent in its sale was because it had a real tight monopoly with companies like Dell but that's changing now).

This part right here/it had a real tight monopoly with companies like Dell. Could you name another company besides Dell that was Intel only. It would serve you well to know . When Dell was Intel exclusive Dell was no.1 aftere they opened up to AMD they fell to no.2. So don't point to Dell and say AMD is saved. AMD was doing fine without Dell. Lets see how Dell does now that Intel gives Apple priority and Dell has moved in the pickig order from intel . To the 3 slot. Behind Apple and HP. I am betting the Apples sells are going to be shocking!

[nn_step]

umm after the Price Rush (and the usual price drop) the prices for MOST Conroes have Not dropped a single Dime on Intel's account

So your arguement is a totally moot point

[SkunK]

Prices were mentioned in the post I ans. It was AMD that kept prices high when they had the performance lead. Intel lowered prices when they took back the crown. AMD has nothing that competes with intel c2d. Don't forget Intel is lowering prices even further in 2nd qt. You might think that $139 for X2 3800 is a good price but 6 months ago when most were sold AMD was raping people at a $300price. Many many people said that $300 X2 3800 was worth the money. So I would say that if you debate that a $50 differance in price between X2-3800 Vs. E 6300 is a ripe off. Lets go read the pre conroe threads and see what was said.
Dell is now selling AMD cpu's but Dell is no2. HP is no.1 and they been selling AMD's for along time. Lets wait for the qt. reports on sells for this qt. and the next befor we decide what the consumer is buying. OK!

When you talk about what might be, it's as much as speculative as you're dreaming K8L might be. As far as I can remember, I never paid above 200$ for an AMD cpu and it goes all the way back to a K62 500Mhz. I remember paying 5000$ for a 286 12mhz (whole system) and more than 3000$ for a Pentium 100mhz (whole system), though.

[Turtle 1]

When you talk about what might be, it's as much as speculative as you're dreaming K8L might be. As far as I can remember, I never paid above 200$ for an AMD cpu and it goes all the way back to a K62 500Mhz. I remember paying 5000$ for a 286 12mhz (whole system) and more than 3000$ for a Pentium 100mhz (whole system), though.

So what did you pay for your present opty and when did you buy it?

[SkunK]

So what did you pay for your present opty and when did you buy it?

210$ CDN (about 180$ US) and I bought it about a month ago. Sure there were times when the DC Opterons were more expensive (too expensive for me anyway). But I'm kind of patient and it usually paies off for me.

You also have to know that the 170 (at least the one I have) is clocked at 2.6Ghz which, considering the amount of cache, makes it more or less a FX-60 without even breaking a sweat.

[[XC] Teroedni]

This is not about Price vs performance etc.


please keep this Thread on Topic

[Turtle 1]

umm after the Price Rush (and the usual price drop) the prices for MOST Conroes have Not dropped a single Dime on Intel's account

So your arguement is a totally moot point

You make no sense. Intels pricies were well below AMD's price's When C2D was released . So the point stands. Also Intel has alrady announced price cuts for 2nd qt. 07. Putting further downward price pressures on the market.

All the nice pricies were seeing now is completely and Only because Intel set the price low. AMD was FORCED to lower price in order to compete. We all know this but you can spin it anyway you wish to.

[nn_step]

You make no sense. Intels pricies were well below AMD's price's When C2D was released . So the point stands. Also Intel has alrady announced price cuts for 2nd qt. 07. Putting further downward price pressures on the market.

All the nice pricies were seeing now is completely and Only because Intel set the price low. AMD was FORCED to lower price in order to compete. We all know this but you can spin it anyway you wish to.

Yes We KNOW, but YOU FORGET those prices are for when K8L comes out
That is when INTEL is forced to lower Prices in order to compete.
I know Intel's Conroe prices started out Lower than AMD's X2 BUT they never dropped the price and they WILL NOT until K8L FORCES THEM TO

[Turtle 1]

This is not about Price vs performance etc.


please keep this Thread on Topic

True so whats your take on the much talked about performance of the new soon to be released K8L AMD cpu. From the known info. I see it as only catching C2D. But not being able to compete with Wolf/York which is announced to be released in the same time frame.

[Turtle 1]

Yes We KNOW, but YOU FORGET those prices are for when K8L comes out
That is when INTEL is forced to lower Prices in order to compete.
I know Intel's Conroe prices started out Lower than AMD's X2 BUT they never dropped the price and they WILL NOT until K8L FORCES THEM TO

Intel will and already has the price cuts inplace . not because AMD k8l is coming out in the 3rd qt.of 07. But because Intel will be introducing 45nm. processors in the 3rd qt. of 07. I doubt Intel is worried about K8l. I would say they are looking at AMD'S fusion cores hard thow.

[Epsilon84]

He sees this:

AM2 X2 3800+ (2ghz): 139$
Intel C2D E6300 (1.86ghz): 186$

(EWWWWW)
Asus M2N-E: 92.99$
Asus P5NSLI: 104.99$

What do you think the average price conscious consumer will do (and is doing, actually)?

That's a pretty bad example. You can just throw in a PD-820 in there and you can get the same argument in Intels favor.

I can also argue that the price conscious consumer would be looking more at ~$50 Semprons or Celerons on $50 mobos with integrated video rather than ~$150 entry level dual cores on $100 mobos.

[Turtle 1]

210$ CDN (about 180$ US) and I bought it about a month ago. Sure there were times when the DC Opterons were more expensive (too expensive for me anyway). But I'm kind of patient and it usually paies off for me.

You also have to know that the 170 (at least the one I have) is clocked at 2.6Ghz which, considering the amount of cache, makes it more or less a FX-60 without even breaking a sweat.

So because Intel came out with C2D you got a deal on your opty. Is that true or false?

You are aware that E6300 hit 3.2 easily are you not. If only Intel had a platform that could run them right. So just to be safe intel can easily match AMD'S O/C and still maintain a 20-40% performance lead. For a mere $100 more.

[nn_step]

That's a pretty bad example. You can just throw in a PD-820 in there and you can get the same argument in Intels favor.

I can also argue that the price conscious consumer would be looking more at ~$50 Semprons or Celerons on $50 mobos with integrated video rather than ~$150 entry level dual cores on $100 mobos.

well if you are going that way AMD is unbeatable.
a 2800+ on a 6100 Chipset could be had for $88 and NO Intel combo even touches that