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Thread: 3 X Raptor 150 on Intels Matrix Raid 0

  1. #1

    3 X Raptor 150 on Intels Matrix Raid 0

    Well, I must say I am happy with my results but we have hit a new conclusion and discovery with Intels Matrix Raid 0. We all assumed that with increasing the capacity by adding more drives, while at the same time keeping a SMALL boot slice in Raid 0, the matrix would continue to decrease access time and increase sustained read. For the Raptors I went from an 8.5ms access time in single drive configuration to a 6.2ms Matrix Raid 0 access time. We all though by adding another drive we would theoretically continue to decrease access time. This assumption is false. My access time remained exactly the same and for this benchmark, even increased .1ms.

    My older Raid 0 Matrix benchmarks had my 2 X Raptor 150's HDTached at:
    175.5 Sustained Read and 6.2ms access time.

    My newer Raid 0 Matrix benchmarks of 3 X Raptor 150's are HDTached at:
    260 Sustained Read and 6.3ms access time.



    So, that equates to an increase of 85 MB/s transfer and a mild increase (not decrease) of .1 ms access time. I must say, I am happy but I truly believed like everyone else that access time would drop below 6.0.

    Also, anyone new to Matrix Raid I would highly recommend reading Bings thread here:http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=467848

    To anyone interested in Matrix raid, I recently answered a Private Message question that another OCForums member asked me. Here was my response:

    THE MATRIX
    Its called Matrix Raid and its quite awesome actually. It lets you physically create slices (not partitions) out of your drives which forces the system to read/write from the fastest portion of the platters. In a sense faking creation of a physical drive smaller than it actually is. You really have to try it out for yourself to actually look and decipher the difference between a slice and a partition. A slice would not allow the outer portions past the drives max capacity to be read in HDTach or other benchmarks where as a partition would still technically include the entire hard disks capacitys.

    In my case, I am using 3X 150 gig Raptor X's with a total capacity of 450 GB in Raid 0. I will be setting up my rig with 2 slices, which tells the system they are 2 seperate HDD's.

    Slice #1 = 20 GB Total (6.6 GB's each drive) Raid 0
    Slice #2 = 430 GB Total (143.3 GB's each drive) Raid 0

    Since Slice #1 is only using the first 6.6GB's of each drive to create a 20GB boot drive, each platter gives you incredible sustained read/write transfer rates and should theoretically drop random access time significantly for me with the speedy Raptors. (Please note: Random Access time stock is 8.5ms on the Raptors) It puts the old NVRaid AMD Raid Controller to shame.

    As far as real world performance, the gain is very noticeable. With the introduction of Matrix raid and HDD slicing it is even more apparent.

    Slice #2 implements the rest of the 430GB Capacity into a humongous Raid 0 disk with a very good STR and access time, but no where near as fast as the first boot slice. I will be using the 2nd 430GB slice for data/software/music/etc.

    Our super speedy Slice#1 will be used for windows xp boot, benchmarking, gaming, and heavily accessed main applications.
    Quote Originally Posted by deathman20
    Wow... Suprisingly my drives keep up quiet well.

    I hit 232MB/s and have seeks of ~9.5ms Not bad for 3x 320gigs with a 150Gig Partition hehe.
    Its the seek time that I am really after, not so much the STR. A seek of 6.3ms is very quick and definitely the first thing you notice with the raptor raid setup. First you start out with a single Raptor 150 with an average seek between 8.1 and 8.5. Putting that into a 2,3, or 4 drive matrix config cuts the seek time down completely by 2ms. That is very substantial. Heck anything at or below 9.5ms is noticeably faster than the 11,12,13,14 ms HDD's. But, your setup is killer. Especially for the pricetag and cutting down the seek to 9.5ms is a definite noticeable difference in performance. I have almost come to the conclusion that when using Raptors, unless you are after video editing or server level I/O's, a 2 X 150 Raptor setup may be the best config in the high end price/performance category versus more of them. It seems that anything after 2 drives actually may increase the seek time, when our theorys think otherwise. I am a gamer and benchmarker so I am fully after dropping seek time. Those STR's dont really mean that much to me although its nice to have close to 300 MB/s on 3 drives. I would think a 3 or 4 drive Raptor Matrix setup would be absolutely killer for a hardcore video editor. For a hardcore gamer, 2 drives is looking like the hot ticket.

    I may even downgrade to 2 drives again because I was hoping for a sub 6ms seek time. And I dont think purchasing another 150 will help my config, or my wallet. lol

    Quote Originally Posted by deathman20
    Wahoo quoted Hehe

    Well isn't it suppose to increase times when you add raid just due to the controllers latencey and communicating back and forth?
    Yes, but..... lol
    And the but is the cool part. With the Matrix and the ability to continue slicing down drives it should decrease, at least by theory. Example:

    Single Raptor(non raid) - 1 Drive, 150GB single drive partition = 8.1 to 8.5ms
    2 X Raptor 150 - 2 Drives, 10GB each drive, 1 slice = 6.2ms
    3 X Raptor 150 - 3 Drives, 6.6GB each drive, 1 slice = 6.3ms

    Our theory was that once we actually reach the third drive and continuously decrease the used capacity of each drive that the readable portion of each platter would shrink, and continue to decrease access time because the drive would have less of a distance to tinker on the platter. As you can see in a 2 drive configuration, that theory holds true. But it looks as though after 2 drives on the matrix, we have something else impacting seek times as you stated such as controller, and latency, or perhaps the actual lowest physical seek time on the disk. If that makes any sense. Technically by looking at that data you would think that 6.6GB readable portion per drive would seek better than 10GB per drive on the platter. Maybe anything 10GB and under produces exactly the same results? I will need to do some more research. I was truly hoping to prove myself wrong and get those killer sub 6ms seek times.
    Cheers. :beer:
    Last edited by dominick32; 10-21-2006 at 07:33 AM.
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  2. #2
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    Man, that's definitely something....wish they had a PCI/PCIe card for that....having more than 4 drives in various configs would be sweeeeet.

    EDIT: and the slices....are just great If you had 2 drives, you could do RAID-1 on the remaining chunk as well....lotsa options

  3. #3
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    I thought matrix raid was a 2 drive only deal and it was a combo of raid 0 and raid 1 across both drives.

  4. #4
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    Nice results.. I do have two quick question.

    1. In SATA, Raid is just MIrror and Stripe. And AHCI is for matrix.. is that right?

    2. With the same 3 HD, would Raid 0 be faster on RAID 0 or Raid 0 via AHCI?

    SAD

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    I do have one question - how fast do you copy from/to the same slice?
    Take Total Commander or anything that allows non-cached copy (set it via preferences->Copy/Move), and copy a large file to the same slice (say a GB big).

    I found nvRaid to have great STR, but worthless copy speeds compared to EX8350, which is the only reason I am using this crap of a 300MB/s top STR card
    P5E64_Evo/QX9650, 4x X25-E SSD - gimme speed..
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Speederlander
    I thought matrix raid was a 2 drive only deal and it was a combo of raid 0 and raid 1 across both drives.
    You are wrong and right at the same time. Thats whats so great about Intels Matrix. You can actually use from 2 to 4 drives and create as many slices as the capacity allows. You could theoretically have a 20GB Raid 0, a 60GB Raid0, a 50 GB Raid1.. Anything that you need is created when you first setup the array. You can use multiple combinations of Raid slices because it technically creates fake physical drives. This matrix boot rom will not allow you to create the array until you finalize your setup at the beginning and use all of the drives combined capacity to create slice preferences.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by SuAsDu
    Nice results.. I do have two quick question.

    1. In SATA, Raid is just MIrror and Stripe. And AHCI is for matrix.. is that right?

    2. With the same 3 HD, would Raid 0 be faster on RAID 0 or Raid 0 via AHCI?

    SAD
    1-For SATA, Raid is Matrix and so is AHCI.....
    2-I only have experience with Raid 0 on SATA Matrix config, not AHCI so I have no data or examples for you. I apologize.

    Thanks for the comments.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by deathman20
    Wow... Suprisingly my drives keep up quiet well.

    I hit 232MB/s and have seeks of ~9.5ms Not bad for 3x 320gigs with a 150Gig Partition hehe.
    Its the seek time that I am really after, not so much the STR. A seek of 6.3ms is very quick and definitely the first thing you notice with the raptor raid setup. First you start out with a single Raptor 150 with an average seek between 8.1 and 8.5. Putting that into a 2,3, or 4 drive matrix config cuts the seek time down completely by 2ms. That is very substantial. Heck anything at or below 9.5ms is noticeably faster than the 11,12,13,14 ms HDD's. But, your setup is killer. Especially for the pricetag and cutting down the seek to 9.5ms is a definite noticeable difference in performance. I have almost come to the conclusion that when using Raptors, unless you are after video editing or server level I/O's, a 2 X 150 Raptor setup may be the best config in the high end price/performance category versus more of them. It seems that anything after 2 drives actually may increase the seek time, when our theorys think otherwise. I am a gamer and benchmarker so I am fully after dropping seek time. Those STR's dont really mean that much to me although its nice to have close to 300 MB/s on 3 drives. I would think a 3 or 4 drive Raptor Matrix setup would be absolutely killer for a hardcore video editor. For a hardcore gamer, 2 drives is looking like the hot ticket.

    I may even downgrade to 2 drives again because I was hoping for a sub 6ms seek time. And I dont think purchasing another 150 will help my config, or my wallet. lol
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Vapor
    Man, that's definitely something....wish they had a PCI/PCIe card for that....having more than 4 drives in various configs would be sweeeeet.

    EDIT: and the slices....are just great If you had 2 drives, you could do RAID-1 on the remaining chunk as well....lotsa options
    Thanks for the props Vapor.
    That is correct you could theoretically create 2 or more physical drives at the same time for performance and for safety/security.
    Example: Drive 1- 20GB boot slice in Raid 0
    Drive 2 - Remaining 430GB's broken down into a single 143GB, 3 ways to create a Raid 1.

    Its a great system. I am glad I made the move to Conroe. It seems all the technology is currently with Intel.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by deathman20
    Wahoo quoted Hehe

    Well isn't it suppose to increase times when you add raid just due to the controllers latencey and communicating back and forth?
    Yes, but..... lol
    And the but is the cool part. With the Matrix and the ability to continue slicing down drives it should decrease, at least by theory. Example:

    Single Raptor(non raid) - 1 Drive, 150GB single drive partition = 8.1 to 8.5ms
    2 X Raptor 150 - 2 Drives, 10GB each drive, 1 slice = 6.2ms
    3 X Raptor 150 - 3 Drives, 6.6GB each drive, 1 slice = 6.3ms

    Our theory was that once we actually reach the third drive and continuously decrease the used capacity of each drive that the readable portion of each platter would shrink, and continue to decrease access time because the drive would have less of a distance to tinker on the platter. As you can see in a 2 drive configuration, that theory holds true. But it looks as though after 2 drives on the matrix, we have something else impacting seek times as you stated such as controller, and latency, or perhaps the actual lowest physical seek time on the disk. If that makes any sense. Technically by looking at that data you would think that 6.6GB readable portion per drive would seek better than 10GB per drive on the platter. Maybe anything 10GB and under produces exactly the same results? I will need to do some more research. I was truly hoping to prove myself wrong and get those killer sub 6ms seek times.
    Cheers. :beer:
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  11. #11
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    Enabling Write back Cache? Just for the fun of it.

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    A hard drives write on the outter edge of the platter first dude, not the inside.
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    So, I've got 2 WD740ADFD's in RAID0 on my P5W-DH (ICH7R.) I haven't messed with any "slicing", but after reading this, I really want to.

    How do I create this boot slice? I don't remember seeing any options in the BIOS level utility. I take it I'll be destroying my existing array and recreating a new one (not a problem BTW, I need to reload my OS(it's been a few months, hehe)).

    Thanks. I wanna try this out NOW.

    BTW would 15GB boot slice per Raptor be to big? Probably when the HDD only has 74GB total, right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brahmzy
    So, I've got 2 WD740ADFD's in RAID0 on my P5W-DH (ICH7R.) I haven't messed with any "slicing", but after reading this, I really want to.

    How do I create this boot slice? I don't remember seeing any options in the BIOS level utility. I take it I'll be destroying my existing array and recreating a new one (not a problem BTW, I need to reload my OS(it's been a few months, hehe)).

    Thanks. I wanna try this out NOW.

    BTW would 15GB boot slice per Raptor be to big? Probably when the HDD only has 74GB total, right?
    hmm I got 4 74gig raptors in raid 0 and I am in exactly the same position as Brahmzy. Request seconded .

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Nanometer
    A hard drives write on the outter edge of the platter first dude, not the inside.
    Where did I state the inside of the platter?
    No where.

    I stated; "The fastest portion of the platter"
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by One_Hertz
    hmm I got 4 74gig raptors in raid 0 and I am in exactly the same position as Brahmzy. Request seconded .
    Ideally you will want to create a Raid 0 slice with 25GB or less of data. Your second slice can either be Raid 0, or Raid 1 for mirroring.

    With 25GB or less of data on the primary boot slic, you will force the system to read from the fastest portion of the platter and have great random access times and sustained transfer rates.

    When first configuring your system in the bios you are going to first:

    1. Enter the bios and enable Raid as your primary boot device.
    2. Enable the Matrix Boot Rom
    3. Upon the next system restart, press "Control + i" to enter the Matrix boot rom.
    4. You will configure your array by first pressing "Create Array"
    5. Select the Configuration (Raid 0, Raid 1, Raid 5)
    6. Select the amount of drives to use in this array.
    7. Select the Capacity to use for the first Raid 0 slice. Example: 20GB
    8. Select the stripe size.
    9. Press Create Array

    It will now let you know that you can not use the matrix without using all capacity on the drives so you are going to click "Create Array" again.

    10. Now, you will go ahead and use the rest of your drives capacity to make the Raid 0 or Raid 1 by using the procedure I just noted.

    After that, everything is fine. You can disable the boot rom if you prefer, I leave it active by default. Now, you simply boot from CDRom, install your operating system and make sure you have a Raid/AHCI driver floppy disk created for the operating system. When you enter windows you are going to want to install the latest Intel Matrix drivers and configuration utility.

    11. Go into advanced options in the Windows Matrix Configuration Utility and enable write back caching on both the Raid 0 slice and Raid 0/1 slice.

    CALL IT DAY
    Cheers.
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  17. #17
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    a raid will never decrease random access times. the random access times will be that of the slowest response of each of the drives involved in the raid.

    This will never be lower than that of a single disk.

    raids only help for non-random things, like linear reads and writes.

    if you want lower response times, you have to move to faster drives, in yoru case, 15krpm scsi.

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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by cirthix
    a raid will never decrease random access times. the random access times will be that of the slowest response of each of the drives involved in the raid.

    This will never be lower than that of a single disk.

    raids only help for non-random things, like linear reads and writes.

    if you want lower response times, you have to move to faster drives, in yoru case, 15krpm scsi.
    Do me a favor.
    Look at the first pic in this post. Do normal raptors have access times of 6.3 ms???

    Please do your homework because I am sure you are aware that these times are from 8.1ms to 8.5ms stock on a Raptor 150X... Matrix raid does indeed reduce random access time by allowing the drives to only read from the fastest portions of the platter.
    And I do emphasize, please do your homework.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dominick32
    Do me a favor.
    Look at the first pic in this post. Do normal raptors have access times of 6.3 ms???
    They do if you use the first 6gb :P. A raid setup just lets you have a bigger amount of this fast space, but its access should be a bit slower then a single drive... by 0.1-0.2 ms.

  20. #20
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    So the Matrix Utility ALWAYS creates it's first "slice" or volume on the outside of the HDDs? Where does Windows put the OS at, initially? Does the defragger move all of the fiels to the outside edges?
    Last edited by Brahmzy; 10-30-2006 at 05:41 PM.
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    So other than enabling HDTach to read access times at the volume level vs. the entire (averaged) drive level, how does this 20GB RAID0 boot slice differ from, say, a first standard 20GB boot partition?

    In theory, there should be absolutely no difference whatsoever.

    In both cases you're utilizing the fastest first bit of space on the outmost edges of the HDDs.

    That being the case, I think I'll stick to standard partitions as those are somewhat flexible using sizing utilities (I just bought Acronis Disk Director 10, which is very cool BTW)

    Basically, I see no benfit of the slicing method vs the standard partitioning method, IF ALL SLICES/PARTITIONS ARE RAID0.

    This only makes sense if you're utilizing different RAID types.

    Correct?
    Last edited by Brahmzy; 10-30-2006 at 08:22 PM.
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  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Brahmzy
    So other than enabling HDTach to read access times at the volume level vs. the entire (averaged) drive level, how does this 20GB RAID0 boot slice differ from, say, a first standard 20GB boot partition?

    In theory, there should be absolutely no difference whatsoever.

    In both cases you're utilizing the fastest first bit of space on the outmost edges of the HDDs.

    That being the case, I think I'll stick to standard partitions as those are somewhat flexible using sizing utilities (I just bought Acronis Disk Director 10, which is very cool BTW)

    Basically, I see no benfit of the slicing method vs the standard partitioning method, IF ALL SLICES/PARTITIONS ARE RAID0.

    This only makes sense if you're utilizing different RAID types.

    Correct?
    You sir have found the million dollar questions:
    My own honest opinion is also that in terms of real world performance and "snappy feel" of the XP environment that Raid 0 using the Matrix is much more noticeable than Raid 0 using NVRaid or another similar (Plain Raid 0) controller/software. These are just some questions youre going to have to answer on your own. Try it out for size. You do bring up a valid point because theoretically a small boot partition on the array (vs. creating a matrix slice) would read/write and access from the quickest portion of the platter on all raided HDD's. So technically a plain (non matrix) 3 drive Raid 0 would be exactly the same as creating a 3 drive slice on the matrix. But, my honest opinion experience proves otherwise.
    Could I be noticeing simple benefits from an Intel Driver Level such as write back caching? Who knows....

    There are definitely questions that need to be answered:

    1. Is a standard "plain raid 0" 20GB boot partition the same as a "Matrix Raid 0" boot slice?

    2. Does Intels Matrix Write Back Caching produce any real world performance gains over "plain raid 0" disregarding the proven synthetic benchmarks that I posted in HDTach and ATTO?

    finally the most important question:

    3. Are there any gains or benefits running the Matrix with a dual slice Raid0/Raid0 if you do not plan on using the Raid0/Raid1or5 implementatin that Intel designed the matrix for?
    Last edited by dominick32; 10-31-2006 at 12:29 AM.
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  23. #23
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    Good stuff. Actually in MY particular case, I AM using the Intel Matrix RAID0 with my Raptors right now. I just have a 70GB boot partition and a 72GB data partition. I don't have seperates volumes, or "slices" though, just standard partitions. I'm still currently using Matrix write back caching just as described above.

    So, for me, the only question is...is there any performance difference between a 20GB Matrix RAID0 boot volume/slice ~or~ a 20GB Matrix boot partition?
    Last edited by Brahmzy; 10-31-2006 at 09:12 AM.
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  24. #24
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    Theoretically, yes, there shouldn't be a difference.
    Still, you do let the chip instead of the OS control the access, plus you have the flexibility of controlling the disk as a separate device (enabling/disabling caching etc.)
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  25. #25
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    Well, I rebuilt my box last night using a small 20GB boot partition. I noticed absolutely no difference with it over my previous 70GB boot partition. I expected this as it's something that would degrade over time as the system files get spread over 70GB vs. 20GB. In fact it seems noticably slower to boot now for some odd reason. This is after extensive defragging, Bootvis etc. More bars on splash and longer hourglass on initial desktop. Hmmmm.

    However, tonight I will wipe the array and try the Matrix slice method.

    It's a little more permanent, but if it's better (faster) I'm all about it.

    I WANT FASTER DRIVES! Man I wish they'd make 15K Raptors. I'm already tired of these ADFD 74GBers and they're about as fast as SATA gets.

    When will they have solid, reliable, affordable desktop class solid state? Argh.
    Last edited by Brahmzy; 11-01-2006 at 09:30 AM.
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