To the members of the XS Rosetta Team: Please Read!

[itznfb]

you're a weird dude haltech

[Haltech]

you're a weird dude haltech

im glad you've chosen to address proper grammar in your sentence. Well done.


BTW. I had a side of corn with dinner.

[David Baker]

by quiting you are letting them win !!!!!!! you can't let this happen now i don't know all of what happened but why must you leave just because you have been called a cheater by some jelouls (can't spell) people the team needs you guys don't quit on us you are failing us why must you do this i urge you to reconsider please movieman and others come back!!!!!!

i will stay and fold for rosetta!!!! but i won't be the same. who will organize the goals? like the million point day? we where going to do something like that again? we need you people. remeber it's not about the points or beating the other teams it's about helping others by doing reseach!!!!!!!!! who cares what others say about you don't be intimidated!!!!!!!

once agian i urge you to stay with us!!!!!!!

of course I couldn't agree more!! don't let the small number of people throwing insults around cause such great damage.
to repeat--the project never stated or implied in any way that anybody except for the few people Jose pointed out had ridiculous credit claims was cheating. important science is getting done no matter which client is used, and it is all worthwhile.

the push to improve the credit system was from Jose and other XS members who did not like the fact that it was easy to trick the system into
reporting huge amount of credits when in fact no work was done. this obscures the great contribution many of you are making.

[Jose]

of course I couldn't agree more!! don't let the small number of people throwing insults around cause such great damage.
to repeat--the project never stated or implied in any way that anybody except for the few people Jose pointed out had ridiculous credit claims was cheating. important science is getting done no matter which client is used, and it is all worthwhile.

the push to improve the credit system was from Jose and other XS members who did not like the fact that it was easy to trick the system into
reporting huge amount of credits when in fact no work was done. this obscures the great contribution many of you are making.

Jose feels personally betrayed. Nothing said here will change my feeling.

[[XC] DragonOrta]

of course I couldn't agree more!! don't let the small number of people throwing insults around cause such great damage.
to repeat--the project never stated or implied in any way that anybody except for the few people Jose pointed out had ridiculous credit claims was cheating. important science is getting done no matter which client is used, and it is all worthwhile.

the push to improve the credit system was from Jose and other XS members who did not like the fact that it was easy to trick the system into
reporting huge amount of credits when in fact no work was done. this obscures the great contribution many of you are making.

It has been said before and I guess said again. It was only the insults that were said. It was the lack of YOUR lab telling them to STFU.

[[XC] hipno650]

Jose i know that you are mad and sad but if you leave us you will be letting us down!!!! off topic but with the new system will you see a gain if you use the optimizations? and will your rig pump out the credits faster because i might put them on. just to get the last little bit out of my rig.

[DDTUNG]

of course I couldn't agree more!! don't let the small number of people throwing insults around cause such great damage.
to repeat--the project never stated or implied in any way that anybody except for the few people Jose pointed out had ridiculous credit claims was cheating. important science is getting done no matter which client is used, and it is all worthwhile.

the push to improve the credit system was from Jose and other XS members who did not like the fact that it was easy to trick the system into
reporting huge amount of credits when in fact no work was done. this obscures the great contribution many of you are making.

Dr. Baker,

If you truly believe that the use of optimized clients does not constitute cheating, perhaps you should make a statement to that effect in the Rosetta forum, as well as shed some light on why the Rosetta app does not utilize all the capabilities of modern day processors. I believe that would go a long way to help resolve the current credit issue.

DDTUNG

[[XC] hipno650]

i like ddtung's idea it might bring some of our boys back!

[Charles Wirth]

We pride ourselves on clean competition and delt with our own internal issues with incorrectly used computers as we will not let something put any doubt on our teams.

We are a central hub for many teams as well as our own teams. These guys are the best of the best in the world when it comes to pushing systems beyond what is normal and maintaining those speeds under phase change and exotic cooling. We see processors here months before the rest of the market and those processors are often used by the teams. This is allowed and encouraged as this is XtremeSystems.

[Hymay]

--the project never stated or implied in any way that anybody except for the few people Jose pointed out had ridiculous credit claims was cheating. important science is getting done no matter which client is used, and it is all worthwhile.

From what I've been able to gather, I'm afraid that's not entirely true. While there have been no direct statements in either direction, the actions (not)taken have certainly implied otherwise by silence and allowing the rants and flames to continue. By creating a new credit system, and striving to make it in "parity" with the standard, flawed Boinc client, it "implied" that those complainers were correct. Not to mention.. it would seem that they spent an enormous amount of time, effort and resources to create a new measuring stick, and then shortened it to match the original.

IF "parity" was the goal, it would have been far simpler, and far easier to simply state that the opt clients were verboten, and give 7/14/30/60 or whatever days to replace them. However, you would still be stuck with a client that measures the speed of 12 cylinder vehicles, by only allowing them to compete with 4 cylinders, and not measure their true potential in the given measurements.

Making the new points match what the whiners wanted was a moral victory for them as far as they were concerned, implying their jihad against the optimized clients was correct.

the push to improve the credit system was from Jose and other XS members who did not like the fact that it was easy to trick the system into reporting huge amount of credits when in fact no work was done. this obscures the great contribution many of you are making.

I can't speak for them but I would think any "push" would have been for eliminating the obvious cheats (which is being/was done). Any desire for a new credit systems seems to have stemmed from the std client underreporting the capabilities of modern cpus in the benchmark it was measuring.

Sorry if that's all been said before, to maintain blood pressure and sanity, I've avoided the majority of the conflict. And as I said, all is just from what I understand from what I have pieced together without fully reading those threads.

[kiwi]

Sorry but did I miss something?

What kind of cheating? Optimized clients is cheating? Or something else?

[Haltech]

Sorry but did I miss something?

What kind of cheating? Optimized clients is cheating? Or something else?

Yea. We were considered cheats for using SSE2/SSE3 opti's... last i looked, my processors include this instruction set by default

[Smurfy]

for people that supposidly dont care what seti people think, your awfully bothered by them calling you cheats, to me its a nothing, they can do and say what they please, they mean nothing.

Makes me laugh tbh.

If you guys want to get all uptight about it thats your choice, but to me its just not worth it.

So carry on doing what you please or practice what has been preached here in the past and simply ignore them....

[Movieman]

Some things that need to be said:
It wasn't the name calling of the idiots that bothered me.
I was angered at constantly being called a cheat but that wasn't the main issue.I'm a big boy, I can take a few comments, we've all been called worse at one time or another.
The main issue was that the people from Baker Labs did nothing to address this issue. Absolutely nothing.
In hindsight I can see what the problem is. They simply do not understand the relationship that NEEDS to be in place for a sucessfull running of any DC app.
It is all about respect between the two parties involved and in this case it was a one sided relationship.
Do I want to continue running Rosetta? Yes, but not under these conditions.
To the guys still running Rosetta: I can't tell you what to do, I can only tell you how I feel. As long as Baker Labs still sees the Work Units still being done by us they will not come to the table and discuss the issues. They need to see unity from us and if that means shutting everything down for a few days to say to them it's time to sit down and work this out then thats what we have to do.
What I would like to see from the team is this. A total shutdown of all machines running Rosetta for the next few days until we can get these people to sit down and work out the problems. If you want to buffer work units I have no issue with that BUT I would like to see nothing sent back to them.
Without unity on our part we have nothing so I am formally asking for your support in this.
Thank you.

[itznfb]

i personally disagree with you MM. i really don't think anyone here should be bothered by the fact that some name calling happened, or no one tried to stop it. who cares. the rosetta team knows XS is the largest producer, and we know they appreciate it. we crush all other teams, optimized or not. and what is this relationship that NEEDS to be in place? most of the top teams have a good relationship. there is always going to be bickering and name calling and rivalries.

[[XC] leviathan18]

Ok Dave but contact Dr Baker and talk to him, i really think he needs our help and you have great ideas.

[itznfb]

additionaly, as DDTung said, if baker is on our side with optimized clients, maybe he should publicly state that. but i don't feel he should have to go any further than that. well,, they need moderators on the forums, but thats another issue....

as for shutting down, i'll shut down if there is a majority team decision to do so.

[Movieman]

i personally disagree with you MM. i really don't think anyone here should be bothered by the fact that some name calling happened, or no one tried to stop it. who cares. the rosetta team knows XS is the largest producer, and we know they appreciate it. we crush all other teams, optimized or not. and what is this relationship that NEEDS to be in place? most of the top teams have a good relationship. there is always going to be bickering and name calling and rivalries.

I repeat, it is not the name calling that is the issue, it is the fact that this occurred on Baker Labs OWN forum and they ignored the issue and by ignoring it they gave it credence. All that was needed by them was to issue a simple statement and that would have put an end to the issue.
They did nothing and by that action gave the SETI group the ammunition to continue their campaign against us. I don't know about you but I am not willing to continue to spend hundreds a month to support a program that isn't willing to address the issues that come up on their own forum.
I also do not like being called a cheat every single day on the forum that the entire public sees when they come to Rosetta.
That dimishes XS and the accomplishments of the team in the public eye.
One of the side benefits of what we do is to bring recognition nationally and internationally to XS and when the public sees us called cheats on a daily basis what does that do to our credibility?

[itznfb]

ok, you make some valid points. but as baker said, they don't have time to deal with it themselves. he has already stated that he would be more than willing to put into place some type of moderation to govern these type of threads. why do we need to continue pushing back? why not help him out?

[Movieman]

ok, you make some valid points. but as baker said, they don't have time to deal with it themselves. he has already stated that he would be more than willing to put into place some type of moderation to govern these type of threads. why do we need to continue pushing back? why not help him out?

I'd like to, beleive me I would. Ask around the forum to the people you know if there has been a bigger supporter of Rosetta than I was?
This isn't me having my feelings hurt and running off crying, this is about the unwillingness of Baker Labs to take a stand and issue simple statements to solve issues. There's this constant comment by them that "There isn't time"..
Nothing personal but that is just BS! They make tons of posts on that forum and a simple statement that this is allowed and please stop the comments to the issue would have gone a long way to difusing the issue.
Yes, I plan to try and speak to him but the key problem with that is his willingness to actually respond to me.
I get the feeling from him that he really doesn't want to be bothered and the only time he has addressed the issue was when he saw his biggest producer starting to walk away.
That is the reason I asked for unity on this, to get him to actually sit down with me and discuss the issues and work them out.
We need that unity to make this work.

[itznfb]

i don't doubt your support for rosetta, i've seen enough evidence to back that up. i think it's unfortunate they were willing to issue statements backing us up, but again i don't see it as a reason to quit alltogether. i think it would be best if you and baker were or someone else from our team was able to talk this out, but if you are unable to consistently get responses from him, then maybe a temporary suspension of all activity is the best solution. i'd like to hear from some more top producers to see what they think.

[ShootStraight]

Ive been doing some reading over at the rosy boards, and Ive found some very interesting (disturbing) facts.

It would seem that our opposition is far more effective at exploiting the shortcomings of the boinc forum format. Specifically, the ratings feature, which is much like a unseen moderation.

Ive made a total of 13 posts on the rosy boards, most of them civil, germaine and speaking directly to the facts which contradict our opponents and not a one remains. Not one.

Whether or not the truth is on our side, we are losing this battle as it currently stands. Any contradictory post is either getting deleted via this mechanism, or the threads become so flame filled they are hidden. The result is very one-sided, and the "jury" isnt getting the complete picture.

The simple fact is were (including others outside this team) being out BOINC'd by the boincers. Something has to be done about this. The price of failure being this teams reputation, and our viewpoints which are being silently squelched and tarnished simultaneously.

-SS

[Movieman]

Ive been doing some reading over at the rosy boards, and Ive found some very interesting (disturbing) facts.

It would seem that our opposition is far more effective at exploiting the shortcomings of the boinc forum format. Specifically, the ratings feature, which is much like a unseen moderation.

Ive made a total of 13 posts on the rosy boards, most of them civil, germaine and speaking directly to the facts which contradict our opponents and not a one remains. Not one.

Whether or not the truth is on our side, we are losing this battle as it currently stands. Any contradictory post is either getting deleted via this mechanism, or the threads become so flame filled they are hidden. The result is very one-sided, and the "jury" isnt getting the complete picture.

The simple fact is were (including others outside this team) being out BOINC'd by the boincers. Something has to be done about this. The price of failure being this teams reputation, and our viewpoints which are being silently squelched and tarnished simultaneously.

-SS

I wondered what the point was of the ratings system other than to vote what you thought about it. I'm glad you posted this. It shows that a group can eliminate any opposing view just by voting against it enough times in a short timeframe.
Thanks pal!

[[XC]melymel]

Responding is only going to make things worse and is pretty futile now. I'm reporting every post I see from the few from now on I have hit the red "X" on 3 of saenger's posts today and I advise all to do the same, they must take notice now...

[itznfb]

why don't we just delete every post on their forum :p