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Thread: Vacuum Techniques

  1. #1
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    Post Vacuum Techniques

    I extracted and translated a part of a document writed by a local Hvac engineer ( Ing. Ricardo J. J. Sardañons ) , I know my translation is not the best at all, it tooks me some time with the aid (well, not much aid, I had to rewrite a lot...) of the altavista translator
    It would be a second part, if there is anyone that can help translating or wants the original doc, send me a pm.

    I hope it helps

    The Vacuum pump:

    In order to know what capacity the pump must have, we must know previously what capacity in TR (tons of refrigeration) or Kcal /h has the system that we are installing or repairing.
    In order to be able to choose a suitable pump, we must consider that by each cubical foot per minute or each 28.56 liters per minute that the pump has (capacity), we can use it to evacuate or dehydrate systems with capacity up to 6 TR (18,000 Kcal/h or 72000 BTU/h).
    An approximate rule will be: With 1 cfm or 28.56 l/min, we can evacuate equipment up to 6 TR For example, with a pump of 4cfm we can evacuate equipment up to 24TR.


    The Vacuum pumps that have oil for their lubrication require oil change, not only in acordance to their use, but also to the degree of contamination in the circuit to dehydrate. It is advisable to change the oil frequently to avoid the diminish of the efficiency of the pump, take in account that the oil is contaminated by the water steam that is eliminated from the circuit. It is advisable that if the circuit to dehydrate contains much humidity, at the time that the pump stops after finishing the dehydration, we change its oil and replace it by new one of the same characteristics that the manufacturer advises, doing this, we will avoid the humidity that remains within the pump affect its mechanical parts and diminish its efficiency.

    When we begun the vacuum in a circuit, never let the pump work if the pressure in the circuit to evacuate is superior than the atmospheric pressure. The atmospheric pressure is 760 mm Hg (atmosphere) = 14.7 Lbs/p2, this pressure is what we support daily on our body. The air which we breathed (78% of Nitrogen + 21% Oxygen + 1% of other gases) surrounds our Planet and by action of the gravity it stays attracted to the Earth up to 960 km at the level of the Sea. If we took a square lead column of 1" by side and a height of 960 km that contained air within, we would have a 14.7 pressure lbs/p2. When a volume of water within a container submissive to the heat of a burner arrives to 100°C will begin boiling whenever it is put under atmospheric pressure. (760 mm Hg).
    If with the same container is put at the top of a mountain, and repeated this same test, the water will begin boiling at an inferior temperature than 100°C . This is due to that the atmospheric pressure at a greater height diminishes, and therefore the boiling is made at a smaller temperature. Similarly it happens with a pump applied to a circuit of refrigeration, the smaller the pressure, the smaller the temperature the water (humidity) starts boiling within the circuit. It is then easy to understand, that working at a very low pressure and favored as well by the room temperature at which the parts of the system are put (pipe, condenser, evaporator, compressor), the micro drops of water within the circuit transform into steam and this will be extracted by the pump.

    The pump must be taken care of and be maintained to assure that the awaited degree of vacuum is obtained, for that reason it is important to recommend the following:

    *The pumps in general must have a manual valve or a solenoid that assures the interrupt of the work of vacuum before proceding to stop it, to not lose the vacuum obtained until that moment, avoiding in addition that the oil of the pump can enter to the system by the low pressure at which it is, an interruption of electrical energy also must be consider, treating that a solenoid valve (normally closed) act to protect the vacuum obtained until that moment. The last generation pumps had incorporated valves to interrupt the evacuation process.


    *We must control and to make the manufacturer control the state of the pump to know if problems of mechanical type do not exist that have diminished their efficiency, this happens generally when the pumps have a very frequent use, and the oil change is not made frecuently.

    *If we have a pump that has "gas balast" this valve allows that drier atmospheric air be mixed with saturated air extracted from the first stage of the pump, facilitating the expel of the humidity and increasing the efficiency of the pump.


    The pipes and components that tie the pump with the equipment:

    Although the capacity of the pump is an important factor for the evacuation of an equipment according to the volume to evacuate, the time and effectiveness of the vacuum depends on the restrictions that are in the evacuation way. For example, is very common the use of of ¼ hoses, flare, manifolds and valves that are already installed in the same circuit to be evacuated, these will generate a lot of restriction when doing use of these elements, although is of practice to use them since they offer many advantages in the maneuvers of the coolant, not always is recommendable its application in the vacuum technique.

    With Valve, Manifold and pipe of ¼ ", we arrive at a vacuum of 100 microns in 121 minutes, using the pump in its total capacity. If the valve cores are retired , the time of vacuum diminishes 56 minutes, so: 121- 56 = 65 minutes.



    If we retire the Manifold and the valve cores, and conect the pump with the system using a 3/8" hose, the vacuum is obtained within 5 minutes.
    If we increase the diameter of the hose from 1/4"to 1/2", the vacuum time is reduced 8 times. If a 2 meters hose is cuted to 1 meter, the time reduces to half.



    Now if we analyze that if a connected hose of 1/2" is replaced it by one of 1/4" in our pump, and this one has a capacity of 5cfm, this reduction in the diameter of the pipe reduces the capacity of the pump in a 75%, being its final capacity 1.25 cfm.

    Concluding, it is deduced that to obtain an efficient vacuum, we must consider the following :

    *To have a direct connection between the pump and the system and the possible amplest section with safe connections that do not have losses.

    *The distance that separates the pump with the system must be the shortest possible.

    *We must replace the valve cores transitorily while the vacuum is made to eliminate this severe restriction.

    *The procedure of extraction of the cores is easily made with a valve Core remover like the one on this picture.






    Sorry and I hope you guys can understand something

  2. #2
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    Very Good Article

  3. #3
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    Thanks Berkut

  4. #4
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    Well, second part:

    The equipment to which will the vacuum be made:

    We should make sure that the circuit in question will have all its open valves where it corresponds so that limitations don't exist in the evacuation. If this is not being kept in mind it can have areas not properly dehydrated.

    The "presses" of these valves should be properly closed and under conditions to avoid invisible leaks in depression that can make to fail the vaccum or to mistake the diagnoses in the face of possible losses.

    When the circuits are of great capacity the circuit has to be will be studied and to make sure that restrictions insalvables like capillary tubes, expansion valves, retention valves don't deteriorate or impede the dehydration. In the cases of circuits of great volume, the use of 2 bombs installed in two strategic places of the circuit, can be a very good solution. The appropriate places can have symmetrical limits with the most severe restrictions, like the expansion valve, the capillary tube, etc.

    The vacuum mensurations should be made in general in places far to the connection of the vacuum pump, and the same ones should take as valid some minutes after stopping the pump, in order to achieve a stabilized system.

    The vacuum levels are established and recommended by the maker of the system , the most frequent values in achieving vacuums among 500 to 300 microns. When a mensuration is required in the circuit, the use of an electronic (analogical or digital) vacuometer is mandatory because it allows to not only assure the values recommended but also to value the efficiency of the pump and the applied technique.

    The times of evacuation are dependent of the efficiency of the pump, their capacity and the grade of humidity within the circuit.

    A circuit can have arrived after certain time at the prospective evacuation level, therefore if we stop the pump and by means of the instrument we measure the vacuum, a loss of this vacuum is perceived until a certain level, where the instrument is detained, in principle it can be attributed to a loss, but if the instrument stops still maintaining a level of non worthless vacuum, it can be that the circuit still contains humidity, and at the moment to stop the pump, the micro drops that are still inside the circuit evaporating causes a increase in the existent pressure of the circuit.
    When a circuit, after certain time of evacuation, arrives at the level of prospective vacuum, it is advisable that the pump continued the evacuation process for more time, the suggested time should not be inferior at 1/3 of the time total to arrive to the required vacuum. Next, before stopping the pump, we should interrupt its operation, closing the valve that links it with the circuit. As we can expect, the manovacuometer will be able to be read and in this case we can comment some possible results:

    • The manovacuometer diminishes its value until staying invariable. This movement that arises starting from the detention of the pump, is attributable to the search of internal balance of the system. If the mensuration doesn't suffer modifications with the course of the time, the vacuum will have been achieved.

    • The manovacuometer shows a quick growth. In this case we will be in front of a loss in depression that we should have to locate. Although this search will be guided to load to the system with Nitrogen, in order to its localization. It should not happen inadvertent that the problem of loss exists in the connections carried out for this task.

    • Lastly if it shows up a loss that stops the instrument in a value of not wanted vacuum, and this value remains with an almost imperceptible growth, we will be able to be in front of a system where micro drops that make increase the internal pressure of the system when evaporating remain. In this last case we should try to continue making vacuum and lapsed certain time reiterate the mensuration.

  5. #5
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    wow, this is interesting, thanks!

  6. #6
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    It is interesting and thankyou very much for the time and effort you have put in.

    Regards

    John.

    BTW: Hope to see you in the final

    "Thermodynamics is a funny subject. The first time you go through it, you don't understand it at all. The second time you go through it, you think you understand it, except for one or two points. The third time you go through it, you know you don't understand it, but by that time you are so used to that subject, it doesn't bother you anymore".

  7. #7
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    Thank you for this I magnify work ssilencer.
    I appreciate the work that you have invested in this guide

    Many of here not experienced in this tema,les vedra I magnify

    Well explained and quite dense great information

    Greetings ssilencer

    luf1c3r

  8. #8
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    thanks

    John, I hope to see you too
    Lucifer, I need a pm from you with all you shipping info again, can't find your email

    Lucifer, mandame un pm o un mail con todos tus datos de envio otra vez por favor, no puedo encontrar tu mail anterior.

  9. #9
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    And no "hand of God" this time

    "Thermodynamics is a funny subject. The first time you go through it, you don't understand it at all. The second time you go through it, you think you understand it, except for one or two points. The third time you go through it, you know you don't understand it, but by that time you are so used to that subject, it doesn't bother you anymore".

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by pythagoras
    And no "hand of God" this time
    Well, it will be dificult to get Diego in the field ATM...
    But well, I have to thanks England to leave Diego made the best goal in the history of Football.

    PD: Maybe I can send you Karina Jelinek (the girl in my avatar), so she can show you a little different kind of "hand of god", lol!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ssilencer
    Well, it will be dificult to get Diego in the field ATM...
    But well, I have to thanks England to leave Diego made the best goal in the history of Football.

    PD: Maybe I can send you Karina Jelinek (the girl in my avatar), so she can show you a little different kind of "hand of god", lol!
    in Greece toooooo , maybe i can show her the art of bodypaint

  12. #12
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    Great guide. I have and old vacuum pump without gauge. Then i bought one and fitted 1/4 flare adaptors.
    looks like this :
    What do you think ?
    My best regards....
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
    Great guide. I have and old vacuum pump without gauge. Then i bought one and fitted 1/4 flare adaptors.
    looks like this :
    What do you think ?
    My best regards....
    It will work, I got one of these sometime ago, but removed it later, I'm trying to get a digital micron gauge for cheap.
    Another thing I can't get here is the valve core remover

  14. #14
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    Thank you Mariano, but would work better than a manifold ?
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  15. #15
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    Only a electronic micron gauge is accurate enough to measure very low pressure readings, At least thats what I was taught.
    The Laws of Thermodynamics say:

    Zeroth Law: "You must play the game."
    First Law: "You can't win."
    Second Law: "You can't break even."
    Third Law: "You can't quit the game."

    Do you wanna Play Thermodynamics ???????? I forgot "you must"

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by wdrzal View Post
    Only a electronic micron gauge is accurate enough to measure very low pressure readings, At least thats what I was taught.
    agreed walt. so i lost my money instead of using a manifold ?
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
    agreed walt. so i lost my money instead of using a manifold ?
    Well, look at the bright side, you didn't lost much that gauge here costs me about us10

  18. #18
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    So best way to reduce vacuum times, is to get rid of the manifold it would seem? So If I run from the lowside on system, thru a ball valve, to a short hose, to a ball valve, to the vacuum pump T which has the digital vacuum meter on it, I can have a shorter vacuum time while reducing chances of moisture getting in when I put on the manifold. What about making sure theres no humidity in the manifold though? I guess that can be solved with low loss fitings and ball valves on every hose, and vacuuming your manifold after vacuuming your system, then connecting and charging.
    Do I assume correctly?


    If you have a cooling question or concern feel free to contact me.

  19. #19
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    Awesome work ssilencer.

    Thanks for taking the time to put this together.

  20. #20
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    To reduce vacuum times, use valve core remover(biggest restriction there is) then use shortest hose,probably 1/4 sae like the one of your manifold hoses ,unless you buy a 3/8" or 1/2" hose + reducers. most pumps come with larger than 1/4sae . Don't get 1/2" acme confused with the much larger 1/2"sae

    when I get time I'll copy some charts so you can see the difference. At very low pressures, restriction is Critical
    Last edited by wdrzal; 05-10-2007 at 11:09 AM.
    The Laws of Thermodynamics say:

    Zeroth Law: "You must play the game."
    First Law: "You can't win."
    Second Law: "You can't break even."
    Third Law: "You can't quit the game."

    Do you wanna Play Thermodynamics ???????? I forgot "you must"

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by wdrzal View Post
    To reduce vacuum times, use valve core remover(biggest restriction is there) then use shortest hose,probably 1/4 sae like the one of your manifold hoses ,unless you buy a 3/8" or 1/2" hose + reducers. most pumps come with larger than 1/4sae . Don't get 1/2" acme confused with the much larger 1/2"sae

    when I get time I'll copy some charts so you can see the difference. At very low pressures, restriction is Critical
    Thanks rogard

    I want to use just copper pipe with a valve core remover but...
    I cannot get a f king valve core remover here, I was looking for them for more than a year
    That's the every day fight for 3rd world people

  22. #22
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    I have always wondered what happens to the oil in a system after recovery. does a lot of oil remain in the sump of the compressor? and how would that affect vacuuming?
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  23. #23
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    so you show only one connection, yet "restriction is Critical" right?:




    I would advise using a type of "Y" connecter:

    Last edited by Exahertz; 05-10-2007 at 10:50 AM.
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      Pump: Swiftech MCP655-B | Rad: Dual Swiftech MCR320's | Fans: 6x Yate Loon D12SH-12's (W/ Variable RPM Rheostat) @ 88CFM Max Each - 528CFM Total!!!
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      CPU: D-Tek Fusion Block | GPU: Danger Den Full Coverage 8800 Block | Mobo: EK's Mosfet, NorthBridge and SouthBridge Blocks
      Res: Swiftech Micro | Tee's: 4x MartinM's High Flow Copper Tee's | Elbow's: None | Y's: None
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  24. #24
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    Vacuuming straight to the low side removes more moisture as well though and removes chances of ice in the capillary.


    If you have a cooling question or concern feel free to contact me.

  25. #25
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    most hvac guys will use their 4 port manifold, draw thru the two hoses; high side and low side hoses with valve cores removed (need 2 valve core removers)and most 4 port manifolds have a 3/8" return to vacuum pump. That way you not pulling vacuum thru a metering device or cap tube.

    It is possible to pull only from the high side and pull dirt or something to block metering device from the back side where there is no filter.
    The Laws of Thermodynamics say:

    Zeroth Law: "You must play the game."
    First Law: "You can't win."
    Second Law: "You can't break even."
    Third Law: "You can't quit the game."

    Do you wanna Play Thermodynamics ???????? I forgot "you must"

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