Dpc Responds

[Entity_Razer]

Ok I plan to put all responses from DPC in here and the same for responses from Xs, please people this is not ment to ridicule DPC or the other way around. Seeing as DPC is a dutch team I will be more then happy to translate and just use this as a relay station to parse the information.

Please keep it civil or face rod's wrath

[Movieman]

Please keep it civil or face rod's wrath

best line of the day so far!

[Entity_Razer]

RESPONSE 1


ALL THIS IS A COPY FROM THE DPC BOARDS


Quote:
Entity_Razer wrote:
Guy's please ease up. Certain people or groups are thought of to be cheating. I don't feel good at all of this myself seeing as D2Ol is kind of "my baby" not to mention I'm a D2OL Mod. Just please stay calm, a official statement by the XS D2Ol staff will follow shortly, I promice.

BTW its looking like DPC'll have to wet its chest because rosetta will almost certainly be our new project.
End Quote

THE ACTUAL RESPONSE FROM A DPC MEMBER

before I begin, this post is not ment as a flame at Entity_Razer but adressed to team XS.

I'd like to state that I'm saying this PERSONALLY so not as PV (RAZER COMMENT: PV is like a teamleader....)

Without getting all wound up.....

D2OL (and TSC) does not intrest me anymore, but now that rosetta is involved i feel I have to respond

If Xs wants to be so childish as to go and accuse DPC of cheating on other fora, so be it. But did you REALLY think ,even for a second, that DPC would go down without a fight? THat we'd let you stomp us without putting up a fight?

Ica has been saving over the last few months waiting for the moment when you where going to overtake us to keep you at bay for a few more days.

If you guys cannot handle your loss so be it, but don't go around spreading things that are not true about DPC.

If you accuse us of cheating, make sure you have evidence!!
(ever think about going to the D2OL organisation ,mail them, ask them to check our results? While your at it, ask them to check your results too, because in a thread I already found that some of you do it to "test" it!!)
ENTITY RAZER EDIT: NOTE THE XS D2OL STAFF DOES NOT CONDONE THIS

Who was it that said a few days ago that Xs was a livly team and DPC a dead team (ENTITY RAZER AGAIN that was me but that was NOT how I ment it, check another post of mine on the forums of DPC explaining myself)
-Thanks to a few sad persons withing XS, the XS team is crumbling in just a few days time
- Some hold on, some do not
- DPC stand as one opposed to that (couldn't make out what he ment by that...)

If Xs wants to merge with Free DC to be able to stay ahead of us at rosetta so be it. And NO we will not merge with other teals because of that, we are not that desperate. We'd rather be Nr°2 then.
I"'d rather stand tall at second place then to get to number 1 like you want to do it.
I hope FDC and XS shine real nice there high up in the sky all alone. I hope you are all proud of yourselves!!

Appolagies if I sound harsh but thats MY opinion

@XS&FDC: cu on rosetta, and do what you want


END QUOTE FROM THE DPC BOARD I have already posted a comment saying the merges is for D2Ol and has NOTHING to do with Rosetta

[DDTUNG]

This is a quote from the FDC forums:


Or course they are cheating.
I'm going to move my XS_Troya account to FreeDC. I only processed 500 or the total so I understand, just by looking ate the numbers (avg.docking time, etc), if someone are cheating or not. That's why I always said that a few DPC members were cheating.
I cheated to understand WHO were also cheating.

DDTUNG,

Remember when XS_Troya joined XS? I making 6k/7k a day were. Well, just like ICA_Cows I could easily dump 100k!

Carlos

DDTUNG

[DDTUNG]

Here are the average docking times:

ddtung 15 min, 56 sec

ICA_COWS 12 min, 03 sec

ronbo54 16 min, 59 sec

kb9skw 16 min, 12 sec

My average rig runs at 3.3 GHz Intel, 2.5 GHz AMD.

DDTUNG

[DDTUNG]

Here's the details of my 32 DX farm:

1 2x2.4M0 @3.55
20 2x2.4M0 @ 3.4
1 2x2.8D1 @ 3.45
2 2x2.8M0 @ 3.35
1 2x2.8M0 @ 3.4
1 2x2.66M0 @ 3.35
1 2x2.4D1 @ 3.4
1 2x2.4D1 @ 3.3
2 2x2.4LV ES @ 3.4
1 2x2.4LV D1 @ 3.35
1 2x1.6LV ES @ 3.2

And my 5 AMD DC farm:

1 1xOpty 165 @ 2.6
1 1xOpty 170 @ 2.5
2 1x3800+ @ 2.45
1 1x3800+ @ 2.5

Details of another 11 rigs will be filled in later. 3 more Opty 165s on the way.

Pics will follow.

DDTUNG

The above was posted on December 5, 2005 in our forums.

As of today I have one more Opteron 165@2.5

Also ran 17 3.2 P4 HT rigs and 18 3.0 P4 HT rigs from the office for the past two and a half weeks. All IBM machines.

The 11 other rigs referred to above are:

1 1xP4 HT @3.3
3 1xP4 HT @3.1
1 1xP4 HT @3.0
1 1xAXP @2.25
2 1xAXP @2.0
1 1xP4 @2.9
1 1xP4 @2.8
1 1XP4 @2.48

These rigs produce approximately 18k cands per day. All are welcome to inspect them on site.

May I ask ICA_COWS what they are using?

DDTUNG

[em99010pepe]

I'm Carlos. I said what DDTUNG quoted. Just changed the nick from XS_Troya to Troya. Also left Free-DC team.

Carlos

[WesM63]

Carlos,
Let me get this straight. I want to make things clear as I had a hard time understanding what DDT's post said.

You "cheated" to see if it actually worked? and it did?

[DDTUNG]

And to set the record straight, I did not move to FDC to be #1. I am already #1 in case DPC haven't noticed. The purpose of the move was to make sure that DPC would be #2 on Dec. 31, 2005(even though ronbo54 might have something to say about ICA_COWS being #2, or he might not).

DDTUNG

[[XC] serlv]

There is truth, or reality, and there is perception of truth.

Whether true or not ( and I am but a peon, and have no way of knowing if it is true or not ), I believe the perception that elements of DPC have manipulated results is there, and widespread.

The thing is that the perception can be believed over the truth. Whether true or not ( it may very well be true ), that belief has taken hold.

It would take a lot for that belief to be overturned.

[DDTUNG]

There is truth, or reality, and there is perception of truth.

Whether true or not ( and I am but a peon, and have no way of knowing if it is true or not ), I believe the perception that elements of DPC have manipulated results is there, and widespread.

The thing is that the perception can be believed over the truth. Whether true or not ( it may very well be true ), that belief has taken hold.

It would take a lot for that belief to be overturned.

And one who is telling the truth should have no reservation about telling the whole truth, like I've started to do and will continue to in as much detail as is necessary.

DDTUNG

[[XC] Duc]

I've explained to DPC what the negative points in buffering the way they do it (with renaming result.dat files) are and asked them why they don't use the non-cheating method (buffer on an anonimous node until you want the points to show up... a much safer, better and non-suspicious way)

The answer: because our method works fine...

I also asked them why they are so reluctant to tell us what and how many machines they do the crunching on (since our biggest cruncher DDTUNG has openly declared on what rigs he crunches)... it's not like worldpeace would become impossible if they told us.

The answer: in some cases people would lose jobs...


Strange, very strange indeed...

[DDTUNG]

I've explained to DPC what the negative points in buffering the way they do it (with renaming result.dat files) are and asked them why they don't use the non-cheating method (buffer on an anonimous node until you want the points to show up... a much safer, better and non-suspicious way)

The answer: because our method works fine...

I also asked them why they are so reluctant to tell us what and how many machines they do the crunching on (since our biggest cruncher DDTUNG has openly declared on what rigs he crunches)... it's not like worldpeace would become impossible if they told us.

The answer: in some cases people would lose jobs...


Strange, very strange indeed...

We just want a list of all machines they use, no names required at this point.
If they can't do that, they've got something to hide.

DDTUNG

[L0$t Pr0PhEt]

Here are the average docking times:

ddtung 15 min, 56 sec

ICA_COWS 12 min, 03 sec

ronbo54 16 min, 59 sec

kb9skw 16 min, 12 sec

My average rig runs at 3.3 GHz Intel, 2.5 GHz AMD.

DDTUNG

I've got an explanation for that one:

Let's see what an instance of d2ol produces in a day:
ddtung's dual xeon (4 instances): 80cands/day.instance
lostprophet's amd64 (single core): 140/day.instance

See why you can't compare average docking time?
I'm not defending DPC but this is not a way to see if anyone is cheating.

[DDTUNG]

I've got an explanation for that one:

Let's see what an instance of d2ol produces in a day:
ddtung's dual xeon (4 instances): 80cands/day.instance
lostprophet's amd64 (single core): 140/day.instance

See why you can't compare average docking time?
I'm not defending DPC but this is not a way to see if anyone is cheating.

Thanks for your explanation. But I am sure we all would rather hear it from the horse's(or in this case the cow's) mouth and would appreciate that you don't act as their spokesman. This thread was meant to provide direct communications.

DDTUNG

It's late now and I must go to bed. Hopefully we will have some answers when I return in about 6 hours.

[[XC] Duc]

Thanks for your explanation. But I am sure we all would rather hear it from the horse's(or in this case the cow's) mouth and would appreciate that you don't act as their spokesman. This thread was meant to provide direct communications.

DDTUNG

It's late now and I must go to bed. Hopefully we will have some answers when I return in about 6 hours.

We'll keep you informed if anything important is posted at DPC's

[Movieman]

Could someone please explain to me the the whys and hows of the following statistics?
Lets take today:
The DPC_ICA_COWS have uploaded at this time 43,680 cands.
Every single one is on the same node..#117749
In the last week they have also uploaded 690,500 cands on this same node.
This node is also noted as the highest one on the list with a grand total of 1,833,306 cands so far.
Does your entire team use the same node and if so why?
I don't understand why any single node would be used by more than one machine. I have 4 instances of D2OL installed on a DX system w/HT and there are 4 different nodes.
Please explain why you would have the same node on more than one machine when it is a freely available 15.5mb download.
Thank you.

[DPC-CowArt]

It is nice that a couple of people volunteered to translate the postings in our Dutch forum, but translators are supposed to be neutral. Please translate what our member say, and don't mix your personal comments into the translation.

I've explained to DPC what the negative points in buffering the way they do it (with renaming result.dat files) are and asked them why they don't use the non-cheating method (buffer on an anonimous node until you want the points to show up... a much safer, better and non-suspicious way)

The answer: because our method works fine...

The actual answer by ParaNoiMia was:
"I'm not saying that it is the preffered method (of MegaFlushing) for DPC, just that one of our members used it. Besides, it's a methode that works, so whether you think it is the right method or not doesn't really matter. Somebody deciding to use this method it doesn't automatically make them cheaters, even if other methods exist to achieve the same results."

I also asked them why they are so reluctant to tell us what and how many machines they do the crunching on (since our biggest cruncher DDTUNG has openly declared on what rigs he crunches)... it's not like worldpeace would become impossible if they told us.

The answer: in some cases people would lose jobs...

Strange, very strange indeed...

Indeed, Witlof said something like that. Is it strange that people are reluctanty to give details about the computers at work they use for D2OL?
Sure we can ask ICA_Cows to produce a list of computers they use. I can already tell what the answer of some people to that list will be: "You might just have well made it up. Post some pics...". That's what Witlof ment: people don't loose their job for using work-computers for D2OL, but they will get in trouble for posting detailed information about these computers and plastering pictures all over the internet.

We just want a list of all machines they use, no names required at this point.
If they can't do that, they've got something to hide.

DDTUNG

See above...

I've got an explanation for that one:

Let's see what an instance of d2ol produces in a day:
ddtung's dual xeon (4 instances): 80cands/day.instance
lostprophet's amd64 (single core): 140/day.instance

See why you can't compare average docking time?
I'm not defending DPC but this is not a way to see if anyone is cheating.

Totally agree! DDTUNG thinks ICA_Cows are cheating because their docktime is 12:03 minutes? I have two computers with docktimes under 10 minutes, and I'm quite sure they are for real.

[[XC] Duc]

Could someone please explain to me the the whys and hows of the following statistics?
Lets take today:
The DPC_ICA_COWS have uploaded at this time 43,680 cands.
Every single one is on the same node..#117749
In the last week they have also uploaded 690,500 cands on this same node.
This node is also noted as the highest one on the list with a grand total of 1,833,306 cands so far.
Does your entire team use the same node and if so why?
I don't understand why any single node would be used by more than one machine. I have 4 instances of D2OL installed on a DX system w/HT and there are 4 different nodes.
Please explain why you would have the same node on more than one machine when it is a freely available 15.5mb download.
Thank you.

It's a common practice...
I myself have D²OL running on 6 machines, including 1 Xeon and 1 Amd dualcpu rig but only have 4 nodes on my account (only use 3, one is a dead one I lost a long time ago).
Ech time I install on a machine, I just use 1 node... no registering email needed and the node is already in my account.

[Movieman]

It's a common practice...
I myself have D²OL running on 6 machines, including 1 Xeon and 1 Amd dualcpu rig but only have 4 nodes on my account (only use 3, one is a dead one I lost a long time ago).
Each time I install on a machine, I just use 1 node... no registering email needed and the node is already in my account.

It may well be a common practice but I'm sure you see my point that it looks like something deceptive is going on. Also you are talking about one man with 6 machines, I am talking about an entire teams output for a week of almost 700,000 cands..a very big difference! This is apples and oranges to what you describe and even in your case, I don't understand. You could keep the installer on your desktop and transfer it between machines on your home network and the only difference in time is typing in your email address. Hardly a huge time saving! Don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking you but the practice itself. This should be one node, one install, period.
I still havn't heard fromn the cows as to why they use the same node on what must be many, many machines

[DPC-CowArt]

Perhaps the client is included in an image which is then distributed around the company?

[[XC] Duc]

The actual answer by ParaNoiMia was:
"I'm not saying that it is the preffered method (of MegaFlushing) for DPC, just that one of our members used it. Besides, it's a methode that works, so whether you think it is the right method or not doesn't really matter. Somebody deciding to use this method it doesn't automatically make them cheaters, even if other methods exist to achieve the same results."

You should also post my answer to that... TWO of the top 3 producing DPC subteams on D²OL use a very questionable (not to use the word shady) method, so you can call that method "prefered by DPC" in my believes. And if you could obtain the same result with a method that will not be questioned, why not use that one and be free of accusations instead of stating "It works for us..."?

Indeed, Witlof said something like that. Is it strange that people are reluctanty to give details about the computers at work they use for D2OL?
Sure we can ask ICA_Cows to produce a list of computers they use. I can already tell what the answer of some people to that list will be: "You might just have well made it up. Post some pics...". That's what Witlof ment: people don't loose their job for using work-computers for D2OL, but they will get in trouble for posting detailed information about these computers and plastering pictures all over the internet.

Yes, it is strange people refuse to tell us what rigs they use to get results... get over it. I can provide you with details on EVERY rig I use, even the one @ work my boss doesn't know I'm using... want pics? I'll get them as soon as possible... I'll do anything to show the world my work is legit... you guys on the other hand


About the average docking time: I agree on that one... I don't think you can assume someone is cheating by looking at his docking time.

[Movieman]

Perhaps the client is included in an image which is then distributed around the company?

Perhaps but that doesn't answer the why when the app is so easy to download and install. If you said to me that you burned the installer to a cd and installed it to save the many downloads that I would understand but it still needs to be installed and the registration takes seconds as I've mentioned.
There is in no reality any meaningful time saving so I am not buying that particular reasoning. I do see that you say "perhaps" and not this "is" what they do so I will just say that "perhaps" you should ask them why they do it this way.

[shmaa]

Just another small note... Their best candidate found still has not changed. It is still the one found on 4/27/05 @ -17.28. They have "done" 1,848,658 and counting. I'll be waiting for this candidate to change as -17.28 is a pretty weak best candidate.

By contrast, LBM has only crunched ~600,000 candidates and our best one found is -19.22. DDT's is -19. Ronbo's is -19.35. Cold_Fusion's is -19.91. kb9skw's is -19.48. TA_CowTipper's is -22.95.... Hell, even Team Gaol's is -19.15.

Don't get be wrong, I guess it IS possible somehow that they did not find a better candidate than -17.28 after crunching 1.8+ million candidates, I just find it kind of hard to believe.

[Bloody_Sorcerer]

"perhaps" because its a hell of a lot easier to slip something into an image where it will ALWAYs be no matter what, so you only have to install it once before hitting the "ghost" button, than to go to every machine individually EVERY time you ghost and reinstall D2OL and register. 1000s of installs... 1 install... hmm, i wonder which is more effective? I know that if i was to put D2OL on the school machines (already asked, net admin says "no"), I'd definitely hide it in an image, rather than go to each machine and manually install, especially because we reghost every computer every friday.