New rumor about ATI Southern Islands

[iMacmatician]

Poor GTX 460s 128 bit bus.

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who noticed that.

[spursindonesia]

New rumor from Chiphell (info from Mindfury of B3D forum).

http://www.chiphell.com/thread-125814-1-1.html

PCB非公的有的已经做出来,有的刚刚layout完,10月估计原厂卡上市,随后11月没准就能看 到非公 了,总得来说的确非常顺利,PRO搞定GTX 460,XT搞定自家的HD5850,10月终于有值得够买的显卡了!!nApoleon 发表于 2010-9-25 10:32

Basically:

Barts Pro is faster than GTX460
Barts XT is faster than HD5850

Info came from Napoleon, a chinese info leaker who's quite accurate regarding to ATi's products in the past (info about 800 SP RV 770 & Cypress die size for instance, all way before release time, IIRC).

So, the landscape is going to be like this ? HD 5870 > Bart XT > HD 5850 > Bart Pro > GTX 460 1 GB ?
Bart XT ~ GTX 470 for 60% power consumption and die size ?? Priced @ US$ 199 it WILL be a killer, 8800 GT effect from the red camp instead !

[Manicdan]

if Barts XT is called 6870, the naming is still fail

[spursindonesia]

if Barts XT is called 6870, the naming is still fail

The naming might be a fail if the rumor is true, but if it's priced right, i don't think the masses would care, those rebranded, same design G 92 made and is still making lots of money for nVidia.

[cegras]

Looks like I won't be upgrading to next gen then .. putting my money into a tablet!

[halo112358]

Just picked up a discount 5870 off ebay, happy to cut my wattage draw compared to a 4870x2 and retain the same performance

I'd seriously consider a dual Barts Pro setup if the leaked numbers are correct.

[RaZz!]

if Barts XT is called 6870, the naming is still fail

i'm still pretty skeptical about the rumored naming scheme. recent news from "credible" sources only mention codenames, not a single use of product names.

why is that?

[blindbox]

New rumor from Chiphell (info from Mindfury of B3D forum).

http://www.chiphell.com/thread-125814-1-1.html



Basically:

Barts Pro is faster than GTX460
Barts XT is faster than HD5850

Info came from Napoleon, a chinese info leaker who's quite accurate regarding to ATi's products in the past (info about 800 SP RV 770 & Cypress die size for instance, all way before release time, IIRC).

So, the landscape is going to be like this ? HD 5870 > Bart XT > HD 5850 > Bart Pro > GTX 460 1 GB ?
Bart XT ~ GTX 470 for 60% power consumption and die size ?? Priced @ US$ 199 it WILL be a killer, 8800 GT effect from the red camp instead !

Isn't it overkill if 960 NI shaders is comparable to 1440 Evergreen shaders (speculate a little, I know clocks are different)? That would be a 50% performance jump if they're competing at equal number of shaders.

That's for 67xx series too. Wonder what 68xx brings. If this is all true, ATi has some wonder engineers and chip architects

[spursindonesia]

Isn't it overkill if 960 NI shaders is comparable to 1440 Evergreen shaders (speculate a little, I know clocks are different)? That would be a 50% performance jump if they're competing at equal number of shaders.

That's for 67xx series too. Wonder what 68xx brings. If this is all true, ATi has some wonder engineers and chip architects

If Napoleon leaked infos can be trusted, then the slide might be debunked since it doesn't support Napoleon earlier info regarding 4D shader array arrangement in Northern Islands. Bart is more likely to be a 1280 SP chip rather than a 960 SP one claimed in the leaked slide, and Cayman would be a 1920 SP chip, just up to 50% expansion, not a double mainstream sized chip like Cypress used to be.

A 1280 SP Bart XT chip in 320*4 arrangement, with its supposed 4D array as efficient & performing as good as 5D array in 1600 SP Cypress (320*5), one can understand if the performance will get close to Cypress XT, should the clock quite be comparable.

[Jowy Atreides]

if Barts XT is called 6870, the naming is still fail

I totally agree but according to the leaked chart, it will cost the same as the 5850 does now but with better performance.

Name = fail, card = ok.

Next generation cards should retain the new name structure. It's a 1 generation naming kink where the cards are slid up a number to satisfy perceived epeen purchases.
A little insidious imo, a way of getting existing 5 series owners to upgrade when they wouldn't if they saw the 6770 brand

It's wise to speculate that barts XT will quite probably have higher min fps than the 5870, areas where it performs better and others, less.
As long as it's cheaper the the 5870 and sticks to the 230 euro price, it's win

[Jowy Atreides]

So, the landscape is going to be like this ? HD 5870 > Bart XT > HD 5850 > Bart Pro > GTX 460 1 GB ?

That's the midrange.

It's like this:

Cayman dual gpu card > 5970 > Cayman XT > GTX 480 > Cayman > GTX 470 > 5870 > Barts XT > HD5850 > Barts pro > GTX 460.

Although Barts takes the 6870 name, there will be a replacement for the 5870 which is the real 6870 we expected. Just with a 69xx name.

Graph says single chip Cayman XT = 130% of 5870. Seems decent.

[RPGWiZaRD]

So, the landscape is going to be like this ? HD 5870 > Bart XT > HD 5850 > Bart Pro > GTX 460 1 GB ?
Bart XT ~ GTX 470 for 60% power consumption and die size ?? Priced @ US$ 199 it WILL be a killer, 8800 GT effect from the red camp instead !

I doubt Barts XT will be much faster than HD 5850 if it really is faster, probably sth like 5% in average, anything more and it would seem like magic unless the floating around specs are inaccurate (yes I've already taken 4D shader array into account). And why do you think they'd price Barts XT @ $199 if it's faster than HD 5850 or maybe around GTX 470 levels in best case and being a lot better in power efficiency. Even a $249 it would be a very interesting, I think Barts Pro is more likely to enter $199 price if it beats GTX 460 then that would also be an interesting pick, $199 Barts Pro and $249 Barts XT sounds much more likely to me.

Barts XT is very interesting to me as I seem to have a dying GTX 280 here (clock stability has decreased a lot), I'd gladly wait for Cayman but don't think my GTX 280's gonna survive that long and I like the idea about Barts XT drawing much less power than my GTX 280 and still offering a significant performance boost and DX11 support, all that for something that's most likely gonna cost $250 or less.

[Jowy Atreides]

why do you think they'd price Barts XT @ $199 if it's faster than HD 5850 or maybe around GTX 470 levels in best case and being a lot better in power efficiency. Even a $249 it would be a very interesting

Maybe the cheaper cost of producing barts gpu's allows them to knock down the old stock prices of 5850's and let barts fill the gap where the margins are bigger at the same price.

Clearing the 5 series cards cheaply would screw up the landscape for the 460 and shift the marketshare back to ATI in the midrange. Repairing the poor ATI brand image through bribery before shifting to AMD lol

[RPGWiZaRD]

Yea right, since when did NVIDIA or AMD start pricing new cards in relative to their manufacturing cost? If there's any gains they happy take that extra gain themselves straight into the pocket that the customers have to know nothing about and what does it matter really if the customers are happy to pay the price that seems fair compared to the rest of the available products? Just saying $249 would be an aggressive price already if those rumors are true, compare to for example HD 5850 being sold for 259 - $299. It would also force price drops on NVIDIA, GTX 470 couldn't be sold for 299 - $349 any longer that's for sure. ;p

[Jowy Atreides]

Yea right, since when did NVIDIA or AMD start pricing new cards in relative to their manufacturing cost?

Prices don't come out of thin air.

It's a factoring of covering manufacturing and tertiary costs with as much markup as the company can get away with whilst retaining a large enough consumer base to buy enough units.

On top of this, the company must think of future protection through a process calls "back end sales".

Back end sales could be locking people into buying a second matching gpu for GPU pairing or manipulating them into brand loyalty.

Before you cry foul, realize that ALL business success stems to back end sales through habitational buying. From mcdonalds to printer paper, the money lies in building a list of repeat customers.

Without this, you end up with pressure sales to fuel the company.
No one likes pressure sales and they come with greater risk of returns.

Just as noobs buy macs, noobs buy nvidia. ATI want that cash, they want the mind commitment from customers to swing to ATI.

What is the real cost of offloading older hardware for a $25% markdown (still in profit) whilst replacing the same price segment with an even more profitable product?

Marking UP the 6870 would reduce sales on that and increase on old stock.
Expect the 230 euro price to translate to the $250 you predict but this wouldn't last long. I'd give it till february before one or both products get hammered down.

Staggered price plan. Release @ premium, gain on mainstream.

Remember the can of whoopass?
That was years ago.

Edit: Pre-empting. It's oem that's the repeat buyers. :p
They want commitment from them. Perform well, price good with congruence = oem commitment

If ati debut weaker products at vastly higher prices. Oem's will be wary.

[spursindonesia]

I doubt Barts XT will be much faster than HD 5850 if it really is faster, probably sth like 5% in average, anything more and it would seem like magic unless the floating around specs are inaccurate (yes I've already taken 4D shader array into account). And why do you think they'd price Barts XT @ $199 if it's faster than HD 5850 or maybe around GTX 470 levels in best case and being a lot better in power efficiency. Even a $249 it would be a very interesting, I think Barts Pro is more likely to enter $199 price if it beats GTX 460 then that would also be an interesting pick, $199 Barts Pro and $249 Barts XT sounds much more likely to me.

One can hope for ~GTX 470 performance level & US$ 199 tag price (pointing my index finger to my nose), doesn't mean that the wishes will be granted though.

Perhaps my thought is based on the idea that Bart chips will be the backbone of HD 67xx line ups, not believing those rebranding rumor out there. As such, it would be rather hard to swallow if the prices of the new x7xx series goes up double time compared to the current price of HD 5770.

Yes, the performance warrants the cards higher price as you suggested, but if the cards want to be called mainstream part, US$ 199 price tag would be seriously attractive and in sync with perhaps the biggest, profitable segment of the market (remember nVidia GTX 460 presentation slide, the pawning slide ? LOL ).

We just have to wait and see how things unfold. One thing for sure, my suggested tag price is more customer friendly than yours, hahaha.

Barts XT is very interesting to me as I seem to have a dying GTX 280 here (clock stability has decreased a lot), I'd gladly wait for Cayman but don't think my GTX 280's gonna survive that long and I like the idea about Barts XT drawing much less power than my GTX 280 and still offering a significant performance boost and DX11 support, all that for something that's most likely gonna cost $250 or less.

Wait for Cayman bro, that should be the right successor of your ageing GTX 280. It would be an impressive spectacle if you pair a Cayman and your old GTX 280 as PhysX accelerator card in Ge-Deon configuration, hehehe.

[BababooeyHTJ]

One can hope for ~GTX 470 performance level & US$ 199 tag price (pointing my index finger to my nose), doesn't mean that the wishes will be granted though.

Perhaps my thought is based on the idea that Bart chips will be the backbone of HD 67xx line ups, not believing those rebranding rumor out there. As such, it would be rather hard to swallow if the prices of the new x7xx series goes up double time compared to the current price of HD 5770.

Yes, the performance warrants the cards higher price as you suggested, but if the cards want to be called mainstream part, US$ 199 price tag would be seriously attractive and in sync with perhaps the biggest, profitable segment of the market (remember nVidia GTX 460 presentation slide, the pawning slide ? LOL ).

We just have to wait and see how things unfold. One thing for sure, my suggested tag price is more customer friendly than yours, hahaha.



Wait for Cayman bro, that should be the right successor of your ageing GTX 280. It would be an impressive spectacle if you pair a Cayman and your old GTX 280 as PhysX accelerator card in Ge-Deon configuration, hehehe.

You can pick up a GTX470 at Newegg for about $250 AR. I don't think that hoping for a $200 product with similar performance in a month is too much to ask for but with ATI gouging I'm not sure that will be happening any time soon.

I would love to pick up a replacement for my GTX280 but I want more of an improvement in performance at the same price that I paid over two years ago.

[flopper]

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.p...postcount=2179

http://img833.imageshack.us/i/58164634.jpg/

[Olivon]

Nice thanks flopper



If true, numbers seems very good ...

[demonkevy666]

Nice thanks flopper



If true, numbers seems very good ...

oh my looks like 5870 is about = 6770.
makes me think 6870 should be insanely powerful.
also disappointing me that I just got 5870 2gbs a month ago :/

[Leopold Butters]

so the 6770 is going to be better than the 5870?

[SimBy]

so the 6770 is going to be better than the 5870?

No. But it will beat 5850.

[flopper]

oh my looks like 5870 is about = 6770.
makes me think 6870 should be insanely powerful.
also disappointing me that I just got 5870 2gbs a month ago :/

might be that a 6870 equals 5970 stock?
seems a single gpu might be a good deal for the eyefinity setup I got.

[Sn0wm@n]

deffinatly a good improvement on paper ... now let's wait and see if the change on paper can be felt in real life

No. But it will beat 5850.

and you know this from facts??? i doubt it ...

[Leopold Butters]

might be that a 6870 equals 5970 stock?
seems a single gpu might be a good deal for the eyefinity setup I got.

Yeah I was thinking the same thing. haha, But I know i'd end up crossfiring them and I'd rather have the 6870x2, one less WB to throw into my loop. It would be great if the 6870 = the 5970, but I won't get excited yet.