pay to post sponsored builds?

[millsy_c]

Good point skinnee... made a minor edit to my post

[pizan]

I'm just going to remind everyone to whitelist sites that they like and want to support from there adblocker. I know i have XS whitelisted.

[DarthBeavis]

I can't believe I'm doing this but. . .+1 couldn't agree more.

I hate to pick out any one build or person here (and there is nothing personal in this selection, it just happened to be the most convenient one on hand) but, let's take some known examples from XS and put them into a scenario. Let's take phinix_mike's build log for example, He has DFI as a sponsor, that's free ad time for DFI, Gigbyte on the other hand, has paid to have their banner up at the top of the forum. If Gigabyte sees that DFI has done a simple sponsorship deal, they may very well pull their banner (and money) and just go the sponsorship route as well. I may not have a MBA or any other business/economics degrees but if I can do a few sponsorship deals "cheaper" than actually paying for the ad time, it makes perfect sense to me that I should do it.

The way around this however, is to mandate in the forum rules somewhere that if you post up banners of sponsors, they must already be paying for ad time on that site, otherwise. . .they get pulled. This way the site won't lose any revenue and no manufacturer gets free ad time.

I also consider these build log banners a popular tool of shills. Now, I'm not saying all builders that use banners are shills but, a large number of them are.



Disclaimer: The views expressed by the author are not necessarily the views of XS or anyone else but the author himself.

but the issue is not build log banners. If you even say company x gave me this or that . . .you have to pay up. on the other hand, if you do not disclose it you can use say I used Bubba's super polymemetic TIM paste and even post a logo and you are ok.

[DarthBeavis]

Interesting read... and interesting to see how DB's OP turned into a "what XS should do".

I know for myself I include a company logo/banner in articles regardless of whether I received a sample gratis or spent lab money to buy the sample. Just using components from a company in a worklog/thread is marketing and advertising. With ads, most of us have become blind to ads and banners from our normal surfing anyhow.

I see a larger question though... Why is there all this drama and politics taking center stage in our hobby rather than pushing the limits of builds, systems and design?

Just looking at what one of the largest sites is doing and pondering if it will become a trend bud. That is all. I can see both sides as well. there is plenty of gray area

[DarthBeavis]

So besides hardware and occasional free trip to vegas, you're just a poor (but talented) case modder being screwed by the system

Actually, the reason I asked is because it would be a completely different scenario if you were. You understand this I'm sure. Have you asked to be compensated? I've bought a couple of things after having seen you use them. e.g. reservoirs, torture rack... (mine is not quite as bright though )

I still have to say that I think it's completely up to the forum owner, and although it sucks, there are so many other venues along with your own website. If it hurts the forum owners more then helps, they'll change their policy I'm sure. Although, I doubt it'll hurt them.

Having run a business myself, I have to say that I'm surprised that it's just now happening, that forums are just now turning that commercial in this way and closing hole for 'free' advertising (from their perspective). Nils has the logic right.

I also run a couple businesses and have been formally trained in business. You need to step back and look at the entire business model. As stated, if they earn money off of banner ads and click-through, they are taking a huge chance by possibly reducing traffic. As I also stated, their rule has nothing to do with people placing banner ads in their posts. Their rule, as written, will not prevent people from promoting or shilling their preferred companies so long as they do not disclose why they are promoting said company. At least in my work logs I disclose what I get from whom so you can take my recommendations with a grain of salt if you wish.

Not sure where you get the Vegas question. The only time I get my travel paid for by companies is when I actually work for them (Nvidia at PAX and also the last trip of NY, Boston, SF, DC, and Miami for example). This means I work shifts in the booth or at the kiosk or whatever the event dictates. This is as a contractor and on a project-by-project basis. When I went to CES for Crucial I paid out of my pocket. I have paid 30k-40k or more in the last couple years out of my pocket to do my projects. Funny you ask about my asking to be compensated. I still have to ask for products and justify what I want to use them for, even from Danger Den (not that they are not good to me - but this shows I am dealing with business people who have to watch their bottom line as well).

[skinnee]

Just looking at what one of the largest sites is doing and pondering if it will become a trend bud. That is all. I can see both sides as well. there is plenty of gray area

Not pointing fingers at all... It was an observation as to how the OP transformed, it appeared to me that responders were taking the "If I ran XS" approach versus "My ethics fall here" approach. That is what I truly found interesting since I was already aware of the forum requiring a fee for sponsorship threads.

And yes, there is so much gray area that the black and white are barely visible.

ps: multi-quote is your friend.

[DarthBeavis]

Not pointing fingers at all... It was an observation as to how the OP transformed, it appeared to me that responders were taking the "If I ran XS" approach versus "My ethics fall here" approach. That is what I truly found interesting since I was already aware of the forum requiring a fee for sponsorship threads.

And yes, there is so much gray area that the black and white are barely visible.

ps: multi-quote is your friend.

I like to SLI my poasts

[Aphellyon]

I think this would be a disturbing trend to see... hope it doesn't catch on. One would imagine that enthusiast forums would want to take care of their core/elite modders... not milk them (directly) as a revenue stream every-time they start a build log. These posters are probably responsible for a great deal of the eyeball driven income in the first place. This would likely drive them off and would, in my opinion, only serve to make things worse.

Now, I do have an issue with build logs like the one waterlogged linked. One page ads with no content masquerading as a build log should just be deleted... and the poster warned.

I do think DB may have had an interesting idea with the one-time fee (as long as it's reasonable). If you're good enough to attract sponsors and want to credit them, give the elite modders an "elite" membership option. Might be a decent compromise if a site is struggling a bit to stay afloat.

[millertime359]

I like to SLI my poasts

I thought you were a fan of quad-SLI

[Petra]

I'm fairly certain I know which site DB is talking about... and it was their attitude of charging forum members for the privilege of contributing to their forums, thus producing more traffic/activity, and earning more money for the forum operators that drove me away. It's one thing to ask for donations from the community (as many of us here have been more than willing to donate to XS), it's quite another to pull the 'figuring out how you fit within our standard rules is too complicated, so pay us or get lost' bit.

...and, yes, I do realize that posting in any privately owned forum is a privilege, but continually lording that over people and using it to, essentially, demand monetary tribute isn't exactly the best way to go about things.

As for sponsored builds, there are different groups involved in sponsorship and different levels of sponsorship which need to be addressed separately. Waterlogged makes a good point when it comes to manufacturers, but that same line of thought doesn't really apply well to many/most resellers (since, typically, they don't have the budget to purchase ad space to begin with). Either way, it's still a matter to take up with the various companies within the industry, not something which should really be foisted upon the individual forum members. This is a complicated issue, though, and one that I don't see a simple "solution" to... especially when you start asking things like: "How much does company X contribute to the forum when it comes to traffic, information, and community? What is that worth? Do they provide products and support for events organized by the forum operators? How should that be counted? What is the overall relationship worth?" It would be very easy to end up with a whole lot of exceptions to any rules that are enacted if your goal were to build a robust, diverse, inclusive community. An exclusive approach, on the other hand, simplifies matters somewhat but can only be taken so far before it becomes detrimental.

[gmat]

What are the XS owners thinking about this situation ? What is their economic model ? Do "free" sponsored builds really threaten that model ? I'd be curious to know the answers.

Also consider that even in regular build logs, you can see clearly product markings, which become free ads for the company who makes them. It fits into the "grey zone" mentioned above by Skinnee... Where to cut the line, one could just hide the fact the build is sponsored, and just put closeup pr0n photos of his stuff, what would be the difference with average joe build log ?

If the answer to 3rd question above is yes, then i would agree with the sponsor paying a fee to add a mention like "this build was sponsored by ...." which is like bonus advertisement.

(edit) preempted by Petra who just made the point a lot clearer than i did.

[Movieman]

I don't do what people would call "fancy" or "pretty" builds and only once through necessity received "free" parts as I did ask when I found myself having to do a build and being waaaay short on the cash end to do it right.
I do think you owe the companies that sent these free parts some sort of acknowlegement as to not do so is essentially spitting in their faces.
Where I think this gets gray is when you drop your standards on the build just to get free parts.. IE: Use some POS PSU because it was free and then tout it to the heavens.
Then you've lost your credibility and your personal respect.
In my case I contacted the companies for the same parts I'd have bought myself, IE: The best for the build.
I was lucky that the companies helped me out but if they didn't I'd have delayed the build rather than put junk into it.

[Vapor]

We won't be charging people to post. Heck, our donate program doesn't even have a private/exclusive lounge. If we don't want something on the forum, then we'll disallow it, not extort from it.

People who put up "This build was sponsored by..." are actually required to do so by the FCC. It's illegal to mask it and it's good forum content--free posting of sponsored builds will remain.

However....garish crap like filling a title with sponsor names will just be edited down to the build name or the primary sponsor.

+1 to what Movieman said....

[DarthBeavis]

I don't do what people would call "fancy" or "pretty" builds and only once through necessity received "free" parts as I did ask when I found myself having to do a build and being waaaay short on the cash end to do it right.
I do think you owe the companies that sent these free parts some sort of acknowlegement as to not do so is essentially spitting in their faces.
Where I think this gets gray is when you drop your standards on the build just to get free parts.. IE: Use some POS PSU because it was free and then tout it to the heavens.
Then you've lost your credibility and your personal respect.
In my case I contacted the companies for the same parts I'd have bought myself, IE: The best for the build.
I was lucky that the companies helped me out but if they didn't I'd have delayed the build rather than put junk into it.

amen. I could have a full compliment of Thermaltake water-cooling if I wanted to. Heck, there are also companies I would love to showcase their stuff like Swiftech but there are only so many projects a single person can do. That is why I always try to give a wide-range of vendors when I recommend stuff to people. Just because Swiftech and EK have not been in alot of my builds does not mean I think their stuff sucks because their stuff is good.

[seeka12]

please,Can anyone pm the name of that forum,i am really curious to know which one is it,A Big thanks in advance to the one who will do that

[Movieman]

We won't be charging people to post. Heck, our donate program doesn't even have a private/exclusive lounge. If we don't want something on the forum, then we'll disallow it, not extort from it.

People who put up "This build was sponsored by..." are actually required to do so by the FCC. It's illegal to mask it and it's good forum content--free posting of sponsored builds will remain.

However....garish crap like filling a title with sponsor names will just be edited down to the build name or the primary sponsor.

Exactly, do things in "good taste"
One can show a pic and comment on a part without going :'OMG this is the best thing since sliced bread"
Show a pic, show the specs on it, say what you feel on it and show the numbers as to how it performs.
Also important I think is to take some responsibility and if you find flaws, tell the manufacturer and if you see fixes to those flaws give them that info also.
They will listen and the end result is a better part for all of us.
Tested a HS once, waited for it thinking it was the answer to my problems.
Thing had more problems than Carter had peanuts!
Sent back a list of 8 changes that needed to be made and they did them.
Final product was excellent and in use by Thousands of people here and that is a TRUE statement!

[Movieman]

amen. I could have a full compliment of Thermaltake water-cooling if I wanted to. Heck, there are also companies I would love to showcase their stuff like Swiftech but there are only so many projects a single person can do. That is why I always try to give a wide-range of vendors when I recommend stuff to people. Just because Swiftech and EK have not been in alot of my builds does not mean I think their stuff sucks because their stuff is good.

Yup, I plan a WC system on the SR2 rig..
Upstairs are 2-Swiftech XT's and yes I bought them at full retail.
Bought direct from Gabe's site as I wanted, repeat wanted, the money to go to him to say thanks for the great products.

[Waterlogged]

Good points from Sharon and Waterlogged.

There is another issue too, as the banners in build logs are not actual banner ads, so they do not get blocked by programs like adblocker. (I don't currently use any of that software so i don't know)

That means that according to Waterlogged's example thread, Gigabyte may not get any exposure due to being blocked, but that list of sponsors will get all the exposure. Granted you do have to look at the build log, but do you really come on forum's like this and never look at build logs?

I will admit that I do use adblocker, though it's mostly used for blocking sig images as some ppl just can't comprehend rules for some reason.

Here is a SS of 2 FF windows of that topic I linked to earlier.

but the issue is not build log banners. If you even say company x gave me this or that . . .you have to pay up. on the other hand, if you do not disclose it you can use say I used Bubba's super polymemetic TIM paste and even post a logo and you are ok.

A well formatted text post listing sponsors and the hardware they donated is all the thanks needed IMO.

EX.
I would like to thanks my sponsors for this build.

Mainboard:
EVGA- X58 SLI (132-BL-E758-A1)

Graphic cards:
EVGA- GeForce GTX 480 (015-P3-1480-AR) Qty. 2

Memory:
Crucial-3GB kit (1GBx3), Ballistix Tracer 240-pin DIMM (with LEDs), DDR3 PC3-12800 memory module (BL3KIT12864TR1608) Qty. 2

etc...



Pictures of the products aren't really necessary in the first post as they'll been seen throughout the log.

As for the "limited to liquid cooling" build logs, that's too narrow of a viewpoint. Air cooled rigs can be just as easily sponsored. You also have to look at the broader picture, that a manu can sponsor more than one build at a time for the same cost of a paid ad meaning they get X number the times coverage for the same dollars invested, plus those build logs would get splattered over many different forums multiplying the dollar/coverage ratio even further making it even more cost effective.

[Manicdan]

but the issue is not build log banners. If you even say company x gave me this or that . . .you have to pay up. on the other hand, if you do not disclose it you can use say I used Bubba's super polymemetic TIM paste and even post a logo and you are ok.

their solution which was to pay the moment you were offered a free part to do a build is quite an extreme. in this thread there were many great interpretations of the steps that would lead up to that, or how to prevent that. the moment XS follows that same rule is the moment it goes fail.

XS will never charge you as a poster, only limit how you post. ie, no links to outside sponsor websites, no massive font sizes, or any kind of emphasis on their names, etc.

and this is clearly something that will probably not haunt XS due to how little this site revolves around builds (not like its unimportant, lol)

[recta]

drapal

[Bei Fei]

(excellent Thermaltake CPU waterblocks for example)

How does one get sponsored by such a wonderful water cooling company as Thermaltake?

[DarthBeavis]

I have a new sponsor!!!

[millertime359]

Thanks WL, just as i thought.

:ROFL: @ DB.

The other issue i see is that the site says to just have the sponsor pay for the extra fee. Well, what happens if another sponsor comes on after? The first sponsor already footed the bill, so they get out of it. I have seen some builds were guys got additional sponsors mid way threw as they either decided to change directions, or another company was late to the game.

[skinnee]

The other issue i see is that the site says to just have the sponsor pay for the extra fee. Well, what happens if another sponsor comes on after? The first sponsor already footed the bill, so they get out of it. I have seen some builds were guys got additional sponsors mid way threw as they either decided to change directions, or another company was late to the game.