[Windows 7] Hybrid SLI and CrossFire unstable, says Microsoft

[ownage]

Hybrid dual-graphics systems won’t be given native support in Windows 7.

Hybrid graphics systems might not be able to churn out the high-res frame rates demanded by enthusiast gamers, but both Nvidia and AMD have invested a lot of marketing bucks in the technology at the lower end of the scale. It turns out that Microsoft really doesn’t like hybrid graphics, though, to the point where the software company has branded the technologies ‘unstable’ in its Windows 7 documentation.

In Microsoft’s Guidelines for Graphics in Windows 7 document, which was released yesterday, Microsoft outlined its feelings about hybrid graphics, stating that ‘Windows 7 does not offer native support for hybrid graphics systems.’ Not only that, but Microsoft added the reason for the decision saying that hybrid graphics systems ‘can be unstable and provide a poor user experience,’ and that it would ‘strongly discourage system manufacturers from shipping such systems.’ Microsoft also added that ‘such systems require a reboot to switch between GPUs.’

Both Hybrid SLI and Hybrid CrossFire are low-end multi-graphics systems that allow you to complement an integrated graphics chip with a low-end discrete graphics card to boost the performance. It’s a feature that Nvidia touted as a potential advantage of its recently-announced GeForce 9 mGPU, which can get a boost from the addition of a GeForce 8400 GS or 8500 GT card.

Have you used a hybrid multi-graphics system? If so, did you find it unstable, or is Microsoft wrong here? Let us know your thoughts.



Source

[Shintai]

As it works now I fully agree with MS. Even regular SLi/CF is a horror disaster.

[Jamesrt2004]

im thinking......

MAYBE they could implement it but would have to be an extra chip on the card... I.e when it switches from 2d to 3d how it changes clocks.. (or is meant to) it reroutes it to the powerful a lot quicker chip etc...

make sense?

[[XC] gomeler]

The deal with having to reboot is a huge issue. If it could the switch on the fly then I'd be all over this but right now MS is correct in their statement.

[SoulsCollective]

Even regular SLi/CF is a horror disaster.

?

I'd be very surprised if you got support on this position. Back at first release, yes, things were terrible. But I can't understand how you can say the same is true now.

[Shintai]

?

I'd be very surprised if you got support on this position. Back at first release, yes, things were terrible. But I can't understand how you can say the same is true now.

Shuttering, missing profiles unless you are playing popular games and got the latest driver. You need to fix it yourself. Minimum FPS issues, multiscreen issues and so on and on and on....

We even seen one driver support CF/SLI in a game. The next newer driver messes it up and you are back to singlecard performance.

Hotfix this, hotfix that.

Do I even have to say Far Cry 2?

[Warboy]

The deal with having to reboot is a huge issue. If it could the switch on the fly then I'd be all over this but right now MS is correct in their statement.

The Asus N10J supposedly doesn't need to reboot to use the Hybrid SLi, Because it can use either on-board or it's dedicated GPU which is a 9300M. But ofcourse this information could be wrong. But the netbook itself is very new.

[STaRGaZeR]

You need to fix it yourself.

Ha! You speak like if that was possible

[natedog420]

i just installed windows 7 yesterday but not with sli/crossfire and didnt load no games on it yet but will maybe today. doesnt seem to much different from vista but i didnt do much just installed and looked at a few things and that was it. ill see what i come up with.

[SoulsCollective]

Shuttering,

Never seen it, never heard of any of my friends with issues.

missing profiles unless you are playing popular games and got the latest driver.

Never had any problems, never heard of any of my friends with issues.

Minimum FPS issues

Eh?

multiscreen issues

Only with SLi.

We even seen one driver support CF/SLI in a game. The next newer driver messes it up and you are back to singlecard performance.

Do you have any examples? I've never had this happen to me.

Do I even have to say Far Cry 2?

Actually, yes, you probably do - I've had this game since launch, playing it on both a 4870X2 and Crossfire 4870 512s, haven't had any issues.

The only game in which I've ever had multi-GPU issues is Crysis, and then only with Crossfire, and then only in the initial releases.

[naokaji]

The deal with having to reboot is a huge issue. If it could the switch on the fly then I'd be all over this but right now MS is correct in their statement.

QFT, plus it would be best if they would just add a crap gpu on the pcb of the higher end ones, that way you would also reduce the number of devices involved, also best to make the change automatically kinda like CnQ depending on load with the option to disable / enable it entirely in CCC and whatever nvidias equivalent is called.

[Shintai]

Never seen it, never heard of any of my friends with issues.
Never had any problems, never heard of any of my friends with issues.
Eh?
Only with SLi.
Do you have any examples? I've never had this happen to me.
Actually, yes, you probably do - I've had this game since launch, playing it on both a 4870X2 and Crossfire 4870 512s, haven't had any issues.

The only game in which I've ever had multi-GPU issues is Crysis, and then only with Crossfire, and then only in the initial releases.

Let me summon it up. Since you are in denial.

Can you tell me what the hotfix driver did for Far Cry 2 on crossfire cards? Yes, up to 98% improvement (Hint: missing profile).

No issue with multiscreen and crossfire? Tried OpenGL lately? Multiscreen with SLI? Hahaha...

Ofcourse you dont have problems. Because you dont relalize how many times you actually only play with 1 GPU. And if you only play the most popular games. Then ofcourse. All works! Just a shame they are like 0.1%.

[SimonD]

I haven't had any real issues with SLI (7900, 8800 and 9800 GTX versions), I am a gamer and expect to be able to play my games correctly. As far as profiles go.. not a problem. Sure you get the occasional driver issues but overall for the last year or so I haven't had anything major to complain about.

[SimonD]

No issue with multiscreen and crossfire? Tried OpenGL lately? Multiscreen with SLI? Hahaha...

Let me sum it up for you, I know and expect not to have multiscreen when using SLI, it's something I have known about since I got my first SLI rig and it's not an issue for me.

I can't comment for x-fire as I don't have it but as far as SLI goes I would never have a problem recommending it.

[SoulsCollective]

Let me summon it up. Since you are in denial.

lulwut

Can you tell me what the hotfix driver did for Far Cry 2 on crossfire cards? Yes, up to 98% improvement (Hint: missing profile).

Well, for the most part, it made my trees look normal. As for performance, I didn't bother measuring it - so either a single 4870 can run Far Cry 2 at playable rates with everything Ultra High and DX10 (without AA) or there was some scaling going on. If not, well, that's cool - if a hotfix driver can come out within a week of launch, I call that damn good on the part of ATi.

No issue with multiscreen and crossfire? Tried OpenGL lately? Multiscreen with SLI? Hahaha...

Well, I use a 24" (as in sig) and a 22", and regularly fire up FFVII (PC), oldskool Unreal and Diablo II - haven't noticed any problems And you obviously didn't pay close attention to my above post if you think I'm claiming multiscreen works with SLi -

Only with SLi.

Ofcourse you dont have problems. because you dont relalize how many times you actually noly play with 1 GPU.

This is really a moot point. If I'm running ancient games, I'll be getting max FPS with one GPU or two. I don't expect ATi and nVidia to be able to perfectly optimise or implement full multi-GPU support for games that were out well before the concept (in non-3DFX form).

And if you only play the most popular games. Then ofcourse. All works! Just a shame they are like 0.1%.

Well, duh. What gets tested and Q&A'd? The games people play most often. Although I should note that at present I have installed AVP2, COD I, Deux Ex, Diablo I, Dark Forces, Dark Forces II - Jedi Knight, Quakes I & II, WolfET, Little Big Adventure I & II, Descent Freespace, Fallout I & II, Planescape Torment, Vampire the Masquerade - Redemption, etc etc, along with my Far Cry II and Crysis, and I'm still not having any issues. You're right, in most of these I'm probably not getting 100% GPU scaling, or probably even any scaling. But when a game engine is written back in the days of Voodoo cards, I can understand that it might be a little tricky to write a driver that can split the work across two GPUs.

[Warboy]

Shintai, man. I think you just got owned.

Anyways, Anybody got links to the white papers talked about in this article, because I haven't heard of the graphical sheets out yet, I've seen the UI and interface sheets.

[ownage]

XP could technically only support 3 GPU's (not in reality I believe?). I believe Vista's limit is 4 GPU's.
2 GPU's are easier then 3 or 4 GPU's.
So 2 GPU's are not that big of a problem, but what about 4 to 8 GPU's? I bet it gives much more problems then the standard 2 GPU SLI or Crossfire rig.
I think this is a good choice from M$. It's better they work together with ATI and nVidia to solve the current problems and release the support in a service-pack.

[Warboy]

XP could technically only support 3 GPU's (not in reality I believe?). I believe Vista's limit is 4 GPU's.
2 GPU's are easier then 3 or 4 GPU's.
So 2 GPU's are not that big of a problem, but what about 4 to 8 GPU's? I bet it gives much more problems then the standard 2 GPU SLI or Crossfire rig.
I think this is a good choice from M$. It's better they work together with ATI and nVidia to solve the current problems and release the support in a service-pack.

I'm pretty sure it can support more then 4 in Vista, as long as the driver model was the same. I think it could be higher then 4. But if the display driver was different, it would be capped at 4. Let's say 1 Nvidia card, 1 ATi card, etc etc, since that would require different display drivers. But if you got 4 9800GX2s in your system for no reason at all, then running the same driver version, they should run fine.(remember 4 9800GX2 is what 8 9800GTX basiclly software wise)

[ownage]

I don't know exactly how it worked, but it was something like this: The OS has to be able to make a new thread for every GPU the driver reports to the OS. So if the driver says, Yo XP, I have 4 GPU's, can you hook them up?. Then XP says: Sorry mate, I can only make 3 threads for 3 GPU's, so you can only use 3.

[RPGWiZaRD]

For once I'm agreeing on something with Microsoft. I'd rather see the GPU manufacturers focusing as much as possible on powerful single GPU solutions instead as I don't like products that require driver updates or fixes to perform optimally and some not so hyped up games are left in the shadows etc. I want a solution that works great whatever game you fire up and no stuttering problems etc. So it's only good if Microsoft aren't that cooperative on this specific matter IMO until they can actually get hybrid Crossfire/SLI and dual GPU solutions working properly, then I'm all for it.

[Katanai]

This is not good news at all. I was hoping that with new technologies like this notebooks will finally start to get decent graphics chips. That n10 from Asus seemed like a good start, although it does require a reboot as far as I know. But Microsoft wouldn't be doing something like this if the problems were not serious. Dialogue is the key here, I hope Nvidia and ATI gets this and start doing something about it...

[SoulsCollective]

I think we're losing sight of an important distinction here, between hybrid systems and regular Crossfire/SLi, using identical cards. MS is only saying here that they're not supporting hybrid solutions.

[Vinas]

Right, I'm not so interested in hybrid solutions. When it comes to SLI/CF I think they're the single best thing since the voodoo2. 3dfx created the first multi gpu solutions and it's come around again for the same reason -- ppl like me and others demand more flexibility and more importantly, more power.

Since the hybrid theory involves more value type cards, I don't think it will be as missed.

[RunawayPrisoner]

The Asus N10J supposedly doesn't need to reboot to use the Hybrid SLi, Because it can use either on-board or it's dedicated GPU which is a 9300M. But ofcourse this information could be wrong. But the netbook itself is very new.

Um... it's right, but I don't think that's hybrid SLI or CF or anything like that at all. It's just plainly 2 GPUs running alongside each other.

[Warboy]

Um... it's right, but I don't think that's hybrid SLI or CF or anything like that at all. It's just plainly 2 GPUs running alongside each other.

No, From what I heard. It's Hybrid SLi, And you can completely shut down the dedicated GPU when you don't need it.