The CDT and copywaza lab

[hipro5]

Now what happens if you or any other members here dont get a 10sec improvement?

Nothing..... I personally don't care any more......

IF someone get's the "gain of 10sec", then he'll be happy I think.....

[filmbot]

Then why keep harping? Or even why start in the first place?

If nobody saw the gain, what was that suppose to prove?

[hipro5]

Then why keep harping? Or even why start in the first place?

If nobody saw the gain, what was that suppose to prove?

I have forgot what was the purpose of this thread.....

I think it's about that this "CDT Tweak" works and that OPB is not a cheater.....Yes.....I think that's all about......10sec lower than Copy Waza and OPB is not a cheater.....

[kiwi]

Then why keep harping? Or even why start in the first place?

If nobody saw the gain, what was that suppose to prove?

I think he is saying that 0.xx seconds is within margin of error for 32M time.

[blossa]

I think it's about that this "CDT Tweak" works and that OPB is not a cheater.....Yes.....I think that's all about......10sec lower than Copy Waza and OPB is not a cheater.....

Actually, I am sorry, I think you are a bit out of line here... It seems like some people HAVE gotten better result with this tweak. Maybe there is something to it, maybe a bug, I don't know. Let us find out.

By (atleast extremly closed to) calling OPB a cheater for presenting a tweak that has worked for him, you are VERY close to point out the few people that also has gotten better result with this tweak as cheaters, total n00bs or something like that.

If you think OPB is/was a cheater for other reason, then that is not what the thread is about.

As a reminder (not only to hipro) here is a copy of the topic:

The CDT and copywaza lab

Regards / blossa - who is reading this thread to MAYBE find a good tweak.

[KTE]

There's certainly more to this CDT tweaking than has been described in this thread. Thats for certain after having spent time on MSN with OPB.

Then we, all of us alike, want you to write out what we are missing please, because that is as far as I know and others here know so far.

[hipro5]

.....It seems like some people HAVE gotten better result with this tweak.

Hmmmmm.......Name ONE (except OPB) please with C2D.......ONLY ONE....

[massman]

I have forgot what was the purpose of this thread.....

I think it's about that this "CDT Tweak" works and that OPB is not a cheater.....Yes.....I think that's all about......10sec lower than Copy Waza and OPB is not a cheater.....

Then you're wrong .

Like I've asked in the previous thread, keep the OPB trash talk out of this, please

[blossa]

Hmmmmm.......Name ONE (except OPB) please with C2D.......ONLY ONE....

Me?

I think the 'problem' is that you think of this as 'OPB CDT-tweak'. If you looked at it more like 'maybe someone has come close to find a better CW than I use today' I think it would be easier.

I also gained a few seconds trying to do this. If I actually did the CDT or a kind of CW, I do not know. I know it is better than the cw I learned a year ago or so, that is good enought for me.

Last post from me in this thread. Back to topic.

[KTE]

The only real thing left for me to establish is what stock/CW/other tweak times people here are getting at settings I posted. If I know that I can judge my own stock/CW/CDT results :
a) If they are purely the tweaks working
OR
b} If they are my own inefficient scores which could've been improved without the tweak being tested.

I.E. you can get low and high scores at the same settings by just pure efficiency.

Conclusion 1: So I might get 14m for a setting at stock and then run copywaza and get 13m50s and then run CDT and get 13m40s and then conclude, "hey I got a 10s faster time with just CDT over CW!!" -

Conclusion 2: While if I had compared the stock/CW run to others here first then I could've known that others were getting 13m39s just stock without even copywaza ...
So my results would be wrong and in that case would show me getting no gain by the tweak tested at all, just an improvement in stock run efficiency.

This is why I'm asking for similar test setup results from the C2D guys; moderate clocks and fair high timings (repeatable by all with a 8x multi). Because I can compare and know if indeed a time is decent or bad at chosen setting at stock, with CW, and with CDT.

I only have 2 days left now before returning the RAM and trying to get some more better RAM he had around. I just need a spare day to pick it up first. But I do have some results waiting since 3 days for someone to replicate the settings before I can comment.

[BenchZowner]

I'm gonna bother sometime during the weekend ( reviews come first these days sorry ) and fiddle with it.
CW usually gives me about 16 seconds with C2D, will CDT give me more ? will CW + CDT work together and show gains over CW only ? Will CDT give me anything in a fully tweaked run ?

We'll see.

What bothers people the most is the "secret" SuperPi 1M C2D tweak...SuperPi 32M is tweakable and various stuff can help...even silly things that we never thought that they'd help.

[hipro5]

Me?

I think the 'problem' is that you think of this as 'OPB CDT-tweak'. If you looked at it more like 'maybe someone has come close to find a better CW than I use today' I think it would be easier.

I also gained a few seconds trying to do this. If I actually did the CDT or a kind of CW, I do not know. I know it is better than the cw I learned a year ago or so, that is good enought for me.

Last post from me in this thread. Back to topic.

FIRSTLY: DON'T count me......count only other's oppinions/tests.....

Now.....You claim that you ACTUALLY see "the gain" out of it ONE YEAR AGO....Right?.....SO you KNOW the "whole CDT Tweak" and NOT "half of it".....
People here trying to find out/be told the "WHOLE CDT Tweak" (if any!) MANY DAYS (more than a month I think) and NONE is saying (knowing!).......
SO IF YOU claim that it has worked for you A YEAR AGO and you know the FULL "CDT Tweak", then WHY don't you say it to the other guys who are testing day by day spending their time/days doing nothing?.....

ALSO IF people here don't know the "FULL CDT tweak", why they are STILL TESTING something that it'll give them shi(f)t?....

In GENERAL now and to whom is conserned: SPREAD out the "FULL CDT Tweek" (if any) OR BUST.....

I DON'T see any point for people trying and trying and trying and spending their precius time/hours/days, only to make runs of a "half CDT Tweak" and do nothing.....

Do something NOW OR close this thread coz it's useless......

.

[kiwi]

Yep, these settings exactly. I would prefer if you could replicate 450x8 DDR:540 if you can and you can use Maxmem/LSC/CW and so on... but not CDT, so that I can differentiate. Thanks.

Here you go:

[KTE]

Thank you kiwi.

Can you mention any major tweaks used ther please. Will post my preliminary result as soon as I get a break from here.

[kiwi]

* More or less freshly installed XP SP2
* Maxmem=620
* Largesystemcache=1
* Pagefile 512MB
* copy waza 4GB from SP partition to system and back
* SP high priority

Nothing else

[hipro5]

Thank you kiwi.

Can you mention any major tweaks used ther please. Will post my preliminary result as soon as I get a break from here.

May I tell you something.....
You don't need to see other's benchies at the same frequencies as yours, etc......
You NEED to run a 32M by yourself (in general) with:

EVERYTHING with Windows tweaks which will be STANDARD for ALL of your runs (plus the tweaks needed with every method).....

a. A run WITHOUT Copy Waza
b. A run WITH Copy Waza
c. A run WITH "CDT Tweak"

THAT SIMPLE and we are talking and keep talking ALL THESE DAYS.....

[massman]

FIRSTLY: DON'T count me......count only other's oppinions/tests.....

Now.....You claim that you ACTUALLY see "the gain" out of it ONE YEAR AGO....Right?.....SO you KNOW the "whole CDT Tweak" and NOT "half of it".....
People here trying to find out/be told the "WHOLE CDT Tweak" (if any!) MANY DAYS (more than a month I think) and NONE is saying (knowing!).......
SO IF YOU claim that it has worked for you A YEAR AGO and you know the FULL "CDT Tweak", then WHY don't you say it to the other guys who are testing day by day spending their time/days doing nothing?.....

ALSO IF people here don't know the "FULL CDT tweak", why they are STILL TESTING something that it'll give them shi(f)t?....

In GENERAL now and to whom is conserned: SPREAD out the "FULL CDT Tweek" (if any) OR BUST.....

I DON'T see any point for people trying and trying and trying and spending their precius time/hours/days, only to make runs of a "half CDT Tweak" and do nothing.....

Do something NOW OR close this thread coz it's useless......

.

Useless to you !

C'mon, George, there's more in benching than just applying the tweaks everyone knows and bench ahead. Some people are willing to test every theory regardless if it's a true tweak or not. As far as I know, this tweaks was developped in five(!) years time. Why do you expect results in only a month? On the one hand, i'd like to know the tweak entirely, on the other hand, I just want to find it out together with the people who are contributing to this thread. Kevin may or may not post the entire tweak, purely as a bencher, I don't mind. Giving the hint is more important than explaning the full tweak, to me.

I know this thread is not your favourite one and I fully respect that. But please, please respect the enthousiasm of the users who just want to spend time on this .

[hipro5]

OK M8.......Do what you have to do.....

I won't post anything else.......I'll ONLY "watch" this thread over the upcoming years to see if anything new is going on....

Have a nice day/evening....

[KTE]

OK George, you have what you wanted. Gather around to hear my story...

I am sorry I couldn't replicate my timings I did 3 days back on the RAM anymore (ones kiwi did) -> it would error first loop after any tweak (its dying). However, I had to increase the timings and I could get it to run at the lowest possible timings for me at those clocks.

At kiwi's timings, with LSC, Maxmem=600, pagefile=512-512 but nothing else, I got a stock time of 13m 58s: http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/3...4055518jr1.png
(which kinda seems slow but RAM errors at those timings so not sure)

Pagefile makes ZERO difference in my case between 384 and 512, so I always choose 384MB-384MB for all the tests. I rebooted after any "tweak" test and started fresh on a new tweak run.

Stock Setup at bootup: http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/4751/setuphq8.png
New XP install OS setup for all the runs: http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/598/setupmaincj8.png

(450 x 8) 3600 / 540 / 5-6-6-15 (see screenshots for more)

#Stock->no tweak best I could manage: http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/6...2sstockik0.png

14m 12.078s

#Copywaza 3.8GB file best: http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/4001/14m07scwqs0.png

14m 07.172s

#Copywaza 4.5GB file best (tried 5GB made no difference): http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/7695/14m06scwhd2.png

14m 06.890s

#CDT (with same pagefile though): http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/5...m01scdttk1.png

14m 01.843s

Memory/Cache was ~550/553 for Copywaza runs and ~535/550 for CDT runs.

Each of those times I cannot do unless I do those tweaks, hardware limit. I think its working for me, but I "think" it can do better if RAM wasn't bad. Will be getting Crucial Ballistix Tracer PC2-8500 soon to test.

Cheers.

[kiwi]

How did you do CW?


Lets say system partition is C: and SP partition is D: (might be 2 different hard drives)

With SP window ready to start 32M, copy from D->C then from C -> D to another location without overwriting (overwriting as well as vice versa copy is another option)

Then watch task manager till available memory stops rising rapidly and is close to system cache. Then start SP

[T_M]

Then we, all of us alike, want you to write out what we are missing please, because that is as far as I know and others here know so far.

I'd love to, however most of what i was told was "its only about 30%" and then the rest was just hints at pieces of information which i didnt really understand.

Some hints i think were:
Totally clean install of XP using nlite with all hotfixes and OPB Cleaner.
Create a file that once it is RAR'd is exactly 632Mb.
Must have balance inside and outside of the CDT folder on D:\.

[KTE]

Since I'm not a SPi competitor, unlike others I don't care to "hide" any detail or "secrets" which they reckon makes them get a better time than someone else.

How did you do CW?

Lets say system partition is C: and SP partition is D: (might be 2 different hard drives)

With SP window ready to start 32M, copy from D->C then from C -> D to another location without overwriting (overwriting as well as vice versa copy is another option)

Then watch task manager till available memory stops rising rapidly and is close to system cache. Then start SP

I did this exactly, which is what I usually do for CW: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&postcount=315

On mine Drive 1 = F:\ and Drive 2 = C:\ (SPi folder)

Just that I only have one Explorer windows open as it occupies less memory. My Windows used MB was reading 56MB after CW, just before starting. No matter what size CW or tweak I do, I can't get any different times to that, if I switch all the services off but 2-3, the time is 2-3 seconds slower than leaving Windows theme running, and the fastest theme for me is the one you were seeing.

I did some runs 3 days earlier which saw good gains for both CW and CDT at higher clocks and lower timings but non of the runs completed, they failed on loop 6-7 because of memory problems. They will complete if memory is OK. One run was particularly decent.

I'd love to, however most of what i was told was "its only about 30%" and then the rest was just hints at pieces of information which i didnt really understand.

Some hints i think were:
Totally clean install of XP using nlite with all hotfixes and OPB Cleaner.
Create a file that once it is RAR'd is exactly 632Mb.
Must have balance inside and outside of the CDT folder on D:\.

OK. I'm setting off now to drop faulty RAM off, so may not have access to system for a while. I have 2 full AMD builds here untested (which I'll test on soon) but no RAM for them unfortunately and RAM 'aint cheap here, double US price.

[mrlobber]

KTE, you did that again That 5sec difference is all I'm looking for. Will try to replicate your runs as soon as I can... although Asus boards mostly are faster clock-for-clock than Gigabyte (and I wonder, could that make a difference somewhere in CDT as well?)

Just to 100% clarify the things how we are doing those 30% CDT , could you write the CDT copy sequence you are doing step-by-step, including the paths involved, whether any pauses between the copying of the files and literally everything you're doing while applying the information we've got about CDT (well, you might skip the "scratching your head" thing as this probably doesn't impact the results ). Just write it down in Notepad or wherever, like I did for my "CDT *.bat file" here:



(remember, "my CDT way" doesn't give me any improvements over CW).

So the way I did it last time was (written down from my screenshot above).

Situation before the CDT:
Drive C:

• System

Drive F:

• 1896Mb file on drive root (exactly 3x632Mb)
• Superpi folder
• CDT folder (named copywaza in my case, quite confusing, right? ) with 1896Mb file inside

So the "balance" should be there.

CDT:

copy F:\cdt_big.rar C:\
copy F:\cdt_big.rar C:\ (this replaces the file already on C:)
copy F:\cdt_big.rar C:\ (this replaces the file already on C:)

copy F:\cdt_big.rar F:\copywaza (this replaces the file already in F:\copywaza)
copy F:\cdt_big.rar F:\copywaza (this replaces the file already in F:\copywaza)
copy F:\cdt_big.rar F:\copywaza (this replaces the file already in F:\copywaza)

copy C:\cdt_big.rar F:\ (this replaces the file already on F:\)
copy C:\cdt_big.rar F:\ (this replaces the file already on F:\)
copy C:\cdt_big.rar F:\ (this replaces the file already on F:\)

(notice I didn't move any files, if you did, from where and to where did you do it?)

Please do not refer to the descriptions posted earlier because even elmor's guide I've managed to understand in at least 3 different ways and the one I've written seems to "fit" in that description as well

If the code portion were identical for us already then the conclusion would be that our "fresh XP SP2 installs" have some not-so-trivial differences which make or break the CDT tweak... if not, then please compare with yours to see where are the differences and I'll retest again.

Memory/Cache was ~550/553 for Copywaza runs and ~535/550 for CDT runs.

Are you sure you didn't swap these numbers? I mean, 550/553 for CDT and 535/550 for CW...

[KTE]

KTE, you did that again That 5sec difference is all I'm looking for. Will try to replicate your runs as soon as I can... although Asus boards mostly are faster clock-for-clock than Gigabyte (and I wonder, could that make a difference somewhere in CDT as well?)

I had a chance of getting P5K Black Pearl twice but I turned it down in favor of higher FSB on this board (usually). But it seems my CPU is walled at 480FSB so P5K would've been better for "absolute" Pi times. I wish I would've know that earlier.

Just to 100% clarify the things how we are doing those 30% CDT , could you write the CDT copy sequence you are doing step-by-step, including the paths involved, whether any pauses between the copying of the files and literally everything you're doing while applying the information we've got about CDT

*I chose the hardware/OS settings I have already talked about at bootup in BIOS and in the previous Windows session.
*Boot up.
*Opened Task Manager to check memory/cache.

-My SPi folder is Drive C: which is the 1st partition on one SATA drive.
-My second folder is C:\CDT which is on the 1st partition of the same SATA drive.
-My third place of movement is Drive F: which is 1st partition on another SATA drive.

-Two identical SATA II drives.

**(On them runs) I started SPi, in Task Manager set the process priority of superpi to "Real-Time".
**I then ran 16k three times, 128k once, 1M twice, 32M upto 6th loop once and then choose 32M until the final window prompt to start it appears. I do nothing further with it yet.

Additional Info: I don't use the mouse (I/O). In case you don't know, I/O takes up CPU consumption, that's why they say "don't move the mouse during a bench". It will lower your scores. Moving the mouse fast does this worst. If you've captured screens/saved CPUZ validation files at very unstable clocks, you will know this very well. You move the mouse as slow as possible (don't take years please, it won't help ) and smoothly to where you need and leave it there.
I use Alt and scroll keyboard keys and hit the Enter key very fast 3 times successively for my runs. It DOES make a difference many times.... with me anyway.

What I did for the above CDT runs?

Step 1:

1: I opened Windows Explorer (folder side view) and right-clicked a 632MBx3 (1.85GB) RAR file which I have already made and left in location Drive C:\ called CDT.RAR.
2: I choose "Copy" and then right-click location Drive F:\ in the left hand-side folder view and choose "Paste".
3: I wait until it finishes copying. As soon as it finishes (no delay) I repeat the above two steps twice more for a total of 3 times file moving, rewriting over the previous file each time.

Step 2:

1: I then right-click the CDT.RAR file in Drive C:\ again and choose "Copy".
2: Then I right-click folder C:\CDT and choose "Paste".
3: I wait until it finishes copying. As soon as it finishes (no delay) I repeat the above two steps twice more for a total of 3 times file moving to this place, rewriting over the previous file each time.

Step 3:

1: I click on Drive F: and right-click the same folder CDT.RAR in it, and chose "Copy".
2: I right-click Drive C: and choose "Paste".
3: I wait until it finishes copying. As soon as it finishes (no delay) I repeat the above two steps twice more for a total of 3 times file moving to this place, rewriting over the previous file each time.
4: on the last copying over, I initiate the copying and close Windows Explorer.

Final Step:

1: I look at the Task Manager to see when the memory value reaches its max before starting to drop -> most of the time this takes 10-15 seconds delay with my experience.
2: As soon as I see it losing memory, I close Task Manager and wait 5 seconds more.
3: I then hit Enter and let 32M start.

Then... if it turns out a slow run, you sit back and cry "Why me!" ... LOL!

Are you sure you didn't swap these numbers? I mean, 550/553 for CDT and 535/550 for CW...

Nope. CW gave me bigger memory/cache but while that DOES improve times very much from stock, it isn't the same thing as CDT -> based on my experience.

CW is the best SPi method of improvement that I knew before this=> there is NO way I can get CW times out of my hardware/setup without running CW=> practically impossible as all I do is hit keys. This is the same for many people that I know including most of you dear geeked out readers.

From what I've experimented with over 4-5 methods of improving memory/cache and getting it to from 580-490/620-500, improving memory/system cache is not all that is happening here with CDT. That's what CW does best.
CDT is improving the memory/cache like CW but also there is something do with the method => something happens to your hardware/OS prefetch/cache by running this method which you do not get by running CW or anything other that I've tried and it is this that improves the time over a CW.

Also a few more personal comments into understanding this based on the above notes:

I don't know anyone who understand computers completely, not even Intel or AMD. Ask the lab engineers when they design a core if its always like they expected-> never.

You can run ANY tweak and get better times at the same setting for everything compared to your own PB. This is because on a different day and time the OS can behave and prioritize slightly more efficiently, and this "sightly" can easily make a second of a difference over a 13 minute bench. Run SPi on Linux and you'll see how its quicker, meaning the way the OS behaves matters crucially.

Some hardware is quicker than others at the same settings. This is beyond our user control.

You can run a CDT perfectly according to the procedure Elmor/OPB/I or anyone does but still not see any gain over CW. I've had this happen to me... but out of the blue, by that I mean beyond your control or understanding you may run it once more time and it will give you a faster time than whats possible otherwise with CW. All you do is, sit back and smile and know that it was a more efficient run, like you would say about a better CW.

My last runs were quite unfair. I did CW 4 times, and the two best times you see there. But I did CDT only once. Mainly because I didn't want to install GFX and so on again if it crashed and it takes so long. FWIW doing CDT is very hard on RAM, I noticed when I had looped 32M perfectly at higher clocks/lower timings with CW, but when I tried doing it after CDT, it failed repeatedly on the first loop on those settings, and even at stock clocks after CDT: (link place reserved because I can't access the drive yet)

Not even Orthos or OCCT caught those errors for over 2 hours, only Memtest, P95 and CDT-32M did. So now its become my way of memory stability testing too.

CDT leaves an "aftermath" effect of your system. Your times improve not just right after the method but maybe for all of the day while you have the system running. I've seen this with all 3 of my tests, on Celeron D, Pentium 4 and Core 2.

I kind of wish I had better hardware now, then I could really test CDT by running the same clocks/latencies as others who fail to understand or believe, but I did this on purpose. Getting better hardware was quite easy for me, although time and interest is an issue. People asked for "C2D" and so I tested one, but my testing hasn't ended yet, its preliminary. In one major way it is good not to have done it because that would end up with users here behaving the same way as what they do with OPB, which would make you see the "not-so-polite" side of me where I'm as sour as any of you can be and I don't want to be banned for no fault of mine. Wherever you have "lobbies" that always happens, and in this case it would be those who have ran SuperPi day and night more than the seconds I've used a computer for lobbying saying "they know better". I had a Duron earlier this year that was giving wrong readings and high benches of 4GHz+ and the daft of the onliner visitors reacted the same petty way, regardless of me saying "theres definitely something wrong". This is where this emoticon is best used =>

BTW, I'll decrease that CDT time further yet, how much I'm not sure, maybe even only a ms but I can drop it a little more at those settings I feel.

[massman]

Insane post, thank KTE

I'll test it this weekend