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Thread: Pure-Sil Biocidal coolant

  1. #1
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    Pure-Sil Biocidal coolant

    Been working on this the last few weeks, first batch should be at Petra's on Tuesday.



    The only available size atm is 32oz. in a flip-top cylindrical bottle, I'm not sure of the exact sale price yet but it will be priced comparably to other coolant products.

    I make NO claim that this coolant is "superior" to plain old, high quality distilled water. The only claims I make are that it has a guaranteed purity, and has a guaranteed silver ion content (which gives it biocidal properties).

    The problem with store bought distilled is that you never really know what you are getting unless you measure its conductivity yourself with a properly calibrated meter. Good quality distilled or deionized water should have a conductivity of <1µS. As an experiment I purchased every brand of distilled water I could find earlier this week. I tested them all, and the worst of the bunch was 22.5µS. That is HORRID quality for steam distilled water, and while not exactly incredibly dirty, it isn't exactly pure either. Most of them were under 2µS, although the second worst at around 11µS was a name brand.

    I talked to a guy who said he personally has measured store-bought distilled as bad as 86µS... that is BAD. He called the manufacturer and alerted them, the next batch was down to 25µS, he called once more and the batch after that was finally at spec (<1µS).

    The water I use for this coolant is lab grade water purchased from a chemical supplier. Once again, there is no claim it is "better" than good quality distilled, but at least I know EXACTLY what I am selling to people, and they know EXACTLY what they are getting, unlike buying store bought distilled and not having a clue whether it is actually pure or not unless it is tested.

    The water used in each batch is tested for purity once I recieve it. My test meter is calibrated using a factory supplied calibration solution each time. Each and every bottle is ionized and tested for ion content individually. The measured ion content, initial purity, and batch number are then handwritten on the label as seen. It takes about two hours per bottle (32oz.) to produce. This is so that I can keep the non-ionic silver particle level small. It also ensures that I am forming a high purity silver solution, cranking the juice can cause all kinds of nasty unwanted silver compounds to be formed... that would mean an unsafe and low quality product.

    This coolant combined with copper ions shed by the blocks in a loop creates Copper-Silver ionization, which is death to just about any known single celled organism that can grow in a loop.

    I make the silver ion content MUCH higher than is necessary, so the biocidal properties of this coolant should last for a very long time as long as the loop is cleaned properly before filling (silver ions will bond to loop contaminants). Luckily about 5-10% of the silver content of this coolant is made of neutrally charged atomic clusters (aka colloids), so no matter what, there always will be some silver present, even in an amazingly dirty loop.

    Using additional silver such as an ingot or coil is not necessary, but recommended for those who plan on running long-life loops, and the solution will drop ions over time both through slow action with the loop, and through interaction with any biological agents that attempt to grow.

    As far as safety goes, none of the particles are larger than water molecules, so they should have no effect whatsoever on pump bearings. The coolant is non toxic and safe to drink, even in larger quantities, although it may give you a slightly upset stomach due to the silver wiping out friendly bacteria in your gut. If someone does drink it, eating a cup of yogurt is the only treatment needed.
    Last edited by iandh; 08-20-2009 at 11:42 AM.
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  2. #2
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    good drills!, its a year before I build a new rig (wedding to pay for) but this and/or your kill coils will be on the list.
    One question............ whats it taste like?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by m1013828 View Post
    good drills!, its a year before I build a new rig (wedding to pay for) but this and/or your kill coils will be on the list.
    One question............ whats it taste like?
    TBH kinda metallic.

    Some people take this as a health supplement but that is a whole different discussion; not gonna go there

    There's mountains of controversey to be found on google regarding that...
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    Wow, nice! This is a great resource for people who don't have access to good quality distilled water.

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    Sounds excellent iandh

    You of all people may know the answer to this. I work at a university, in a building that does psychology experiments etc. We apparently have a distilled filtration system built into our building(building was built this year, brand new). Considering it's a university, and they use the water to do experiments with - I would assume it's plenty pure enough. But how would I go about testing it?

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    Good deal iandh.

    What issues could be found from using distilled water that is as bad as your 2 worse ones?
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  7. #7
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    Nice product. Any idea on price?
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    It will be priced slightly less than most pre-mix coolants (so < $20), but it isn't what I would call cheap. I feel it will be a fair price, all things considered.

    There is a lot of time and effort involved, plus almost $500 in initial investment, and I have a very limited production capacity.

    If it seems to be very popular I will invest in higher production capacity and may be able to drop the price a bit. The main problem is that I can only ionize at a certain rate and still maintain high purity, so it's pretty much 2hrs per bottle unless I fork out another couple hundred bucks.

    edit: i r gud spelur
    Last edited by iandh; 08-20-2009 at 05:45 PM.
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    Not to discredit this or anything, but wouldn't it be much much cheaper if online retailers (ie Petra's) simply advertised and shipped known brands of distilled water that are more than fine for watercooling purposes? I for one know that distilled water available here in California (ie where Petra's is located), has pretty high purity, is greatly inexpensive, and perfectly suitable for wc needs with a silver coil. Your effort and constant innovation of available products are commendable, but I'm just curious towards this more expensive approach.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by rehpyc View Post
    Not to discredit this or anything, but wouldn't it be much much cheaper if online retailers (ie Petra's) simply advertised and shipped known brands of distilled water that are more than fine for watercooling purposes? I for one know that distilled water available here in California (ie where Petra's is located), has pretty high purity, is greatly inexpensive, and perfectly suitable for wc needs with a silver coil. Your effort and constant innovation of available products are commendable, but I'm just curious towards this more expensive approach.
    I already did mention above "I'm not claiming this is superior to plain old distilled water". It isn't. It is certified as very pure water with silver ions... that is all it is, and that is all I am advertising it as.

    Feser, for example, sells plain distilled for almost $10 a liter, with the only justification being "conductance less than 0.5µS". The "double distilled" pitch is nice and all, but I've tested $1 a gallon store bought distilled (Arrowhead brand) as low as 0.3µS, which is better than what Feser specs their water which costs $40 a gallon.

    I find it pretty hard to justify that more expensive approach, but people still seem to buy the stuff.

    The three different batches of arrowhead I've tested have varied anywhere from 0.3µS to 0.8µS. That's pretty impressive, but OTOH some of the other brands I tested were downright unimpressive. As I mentioned in the OP, if you think that buying distilled water means you are getting pure water, you are mistaken. It means you probably are getting pure water. After talking to the person who sold me my equipment, and my own personal experiences water shopping, I will never put water into my loop again without either knowing it is pure through its certification, or by testing it myself. Here is a excellent, inexpensive test meter:

    http://www.hannainst.com/usa/prods2....dCode=HI 98308

    It can be found online for as low as $60 shipped, but I recommend purchasing calibration solution which will bring the price closer to $70-75. I use this meter for spot checking and a higher accuracy one that I borrow from work is used for initial certification of my water quality and confirmation of my personal meter's accuracy.

    The main purpose of this coolant is as an option for those that don't readily have distilled available to them, and secondarily for those that don't want to worry about whether the distilled they are buying is actually pure or not. It also acts as a biocide, so if one were to buy this coolant it wouldn't be necessary to buy one of my silver coils. If you subtract that from the cost, it ends up about the same as the distilled products already available.

    The addition of silver ions not only gives the coolant biocidal properties; I've found that the coolant's pH moves closer to neutral after the ionization process... plain distilled/DI water typically has a slightly acidic pH.

    Petra's could sell certified and repackaged distilled water, but to make it worthwhile they'd have to sell it for the same price as the Feser distilled, so why make a product that is already easily available? They'd be better off selling water test meters on their site TBH. Plus, if they purchased and shipped store-bought distilled, even if they had certified it for purity, and marked it up enough to make it worthwhile to bother with, they would then be criticized for making profit from "no work" and marking up something that anyone could go buy.

    The bottom line is, there are all kind of coolants on the market that are dripping wet with snake oil. At least mine is represented for exactly what it is. I don't even claim that it does anything special other than its biocidal properties, and possibly the more neutral pH. Everyone already knows that they can somewhat reliably source decent quality distilled from supermarkets for dirt cheap; and anyone who chooses to buy my product does so with that already in mind.

    edit: Also keep in mind that some people like just being able to pop a couple bottles of coolant into their online shopping cart and not have to worry about going out and finding distilled. It's a convenience item as well as a specialty item, much like the killcoils. Taken from a cost justification of my killcoils in another thread, a 20 mile round trip to the market costs me about $22 total in gas and wear and tear on my truck. All of a sudden that $1 gallon of distilled costs $23 a gallon. Obviously that doesn't count if you pick up the water while you are already out on a grocery trip, but OTOH most people don't go grocery shopping in the middle of setting up their WC loops. There's just too many angles one can look at this to really nail it down.


    Please don't think I took offense to your comment; I didn't. I'm just trying to explain to you where this product fits in, and offer you some alternate viewpoints.
    Last edited by iandh; 08-20-2009 at 11:47 PM.
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    I think this is a great idea iandh. It is a really nice alternative for people who don't want to put a chunk of silver in their loop.

    I have a question that I couldn't find the answer to on google:
    How long does it take for acceptable levels of silver ionization?

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    Quote Originally Posted by faster3200 View Post
    I think this is a great idea iandh. It is a really nice alternative for people who don't want to put a chunk of silver in their loop.

    I have a question that I couldn't find the answer to on google:
    How long does it take for acceptable levels of silver ionization?
    Do you mean from a chunk of silver in your loop, or when I'm preparing this coolant?
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    Quote Originally Posted by iandh View Post
    Do you mean from a chunk of silver in your loop, or when I'm preparing this coolant?
    When you are preparing the coolant.

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    Do you electrochemically accelerate the process?
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    Quote Originally Posted by faster3200 View Post
    When you are preparing the coolant.
    TBH, a few minutes, but I want a much, much higher ion content in the product I sell to ensure its longevity and to account for people that may use the product in improperly cleaned loops that may dump contaminants that bond with the silver ions. The necessary level is 20-40 parts per billion, I have set a lower limit at 5 parts per million, but I usually hit 6.5-7ppm just to be sure.

    It takes me about two hours per bottle to reach that concentration. It can be done much faster, but the higher the current, the larger the particles that may be kicked off instead of ions. I am trying to keep the particle size to an absolute minimum (although most of the content is still ionic), so gotta keep it low and slow.

    Quote Originally Posted by cegras View Post
    Do you electrochemically accelerate the process?
    Nope, this is another reason why it is so slow. Pure water and electricity only, no conductivity enhancers.

    edit: If by that question you mean "do I apply juice", yes, a constant current DC power supply is used. Sometimes chemicals such as salt are added in tiny amounts to plating baths to increase conductivity and reduce process time, I do not do that in my process, for purity's sake.
    Last edited by iandh; 08-22-2009 at 10:39 PM.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by iandh View Post
    ...

    Petra's could sell certified and repackaged distilled water, but to make it worthwhile they'd have to sell it for the same price as the Feser distilled, so why make a product that is already easily available? They'd be better off selling water test meters on their site TBH. Plus, if they purchased and shipped store-bought distilled, even if they had certified it for purity, and marked it up enough to make it worthwhile to bother with, they would then be criticized for making profit from "no work" and marking up something that anyone could go buy.

    ...

    Please don't think I took offense to your comment; I didn't. I'm just trying to explain to you where this product fits in, and offer you some alternate viewpoints.
    No worries, I would be the one to fear offending you as opposed to the opposite given I respect the work you do for the people in the water cooling community and this site

    What I quoted above is what my angle of thought on things was primarily with keeping those who don't have such easy access to quality distilled water in mind. In California, there's a wide variety of brands that can be chosen from, but it's very much understandable that in many other states the options are slim and could often be those brands that don't have a low purity level. For those not in the US.. we've read their stories about how expensive distilled water can be or the lack of availability.. if they're already purchasing from Petra's or such, why not add that to the order for the convenience?

    Nevertheless, I think your product is a good idea and definitely hope you at least make enough revenue to cover all initial fixed production costs so that you keep transforming more of your ideas to a reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rehpyc View Post
    No worries, I would be the one to fear offending you as opposed to the opposite given I respect the work you do for the people in the water cooling community and this site

    What I quoted above is what my angle of thought on things was primarily with keeping those who don't have such easy access to quality distilled water in mind. In California, there's a wide variety of brands that can be chosen from, but it's very much understandable that in many other states the options are slim and could often be those brands that don't have a low purity level. For those not in the US.. we've read their stories about how expensive distilled water can be or the lack of availability.. if they're already purchasing from Petra's or such, why not add that to the order for the convenience?

    Nevertheless, I think your product is a good idea and definitely hope you at least make enough revenue to cover all initial fixed production costs so that you keep transforming more of your ideas to a reality.

    Agreed, most of the purchasers probably won't be from big cities, places where there are a lot of large supermarkets and distilled water is plentiful... mostly small towns/international. It's still reasonably priced enough to use for people that can get distilled easily, as I said before it's just kind of one of those things people decide.

    Gotta still recommend anyone who has a few extra bucks to purchase a test meter though, they're pretty darned handy. Cool way of telling how clean your loop is too, if you measure your coolant after a few days running through the loop and it maxes out the meter, you probably need to flush moar.

    I didn't mean to bad mouth Feser's product by what I said, just that I think that niche is already sort of filled. I definitely DO have personal opinions (good or bad) about every product and manufacturer, but I generally try to keep them personal.

    I may discuss repackaged distilled with Petra's though and see what they think, I've already got the lab grade water and the bottles so it wouldn't be all that hard to add next to this Pure-Sil stuff.
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    I see. If I'm guessing correctly, the anode is silver and the cathode is something like graphite? My fundamentals are terrible, but I imagine the silver oxidizes to emit electrons to the cathode while release free ions into solution.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cegras View Post
    I see. If I'm guessing correctly, the anode is silver and the cathode is something like graphite? My fundamentals are terrible, but I imagine the silver oxidizes to emit electrons to the cathode while release free ions into solution.
    Both anode and cathode are silver, electrons/ions are kicked off the anode into solution, some stay in solution and some end up building as film on cathode. I use a magnetic stirrer to speed things up and allow more ions to stay in solution rather than traveling directly over to the cathode.

    The electrodes are cleaned every batch to maintain uniformity in the product. After every ten or so runs I switch the anode and cathode to keep wear even.
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    Could I use a dye with this product?

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    Another fine product, iandh. I have always appreciated your consistent strive for quality and able to fill in voids in watercooling. Thanks for bringing this to market.

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    I will definitely be picking up some of this stuff for when I redo my loop.

    Will there be any issues with using dye bombs with it?
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    If you have primochill pro lrt this is meaningless.

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    I make my own with silver ingots and a few weeks in a bucket with deionized. Good idea though for sure

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    I have serious respect for your honesty in bringing this product forth which is a heck of a lot more then I can say for other companies making outrageous claims. This is a neat product if you want to save yourself some time and have the insurance of clean water being used. Keep up the good work!

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