Japan quakes

[anubis]

This issue with reactors seem more and more like a catastrophic s*rewup from the company.

IF the reactor was supposed to be shutdown on 23rd March (given extension of 10 years by goverment) and there were known issues with it previously (WSJ) then it looks more and more like a company trying to hang on to old technology to make money. If a design has lived its time then one just can`t take an extension. Just because IF something goes wrong the company WONT be able to take the hit anyways. They`ll just go bankrupt and thats that.

Just like banks - they give out loans, the head honchos make billions. The economy changes, everyone in panic. They go bankrupt - and the taxpayers have to take the SECOND hit.

The system is flawed.

Hold on Japan, I really-really want to see the cherry blossoms one day. My thoughts are with You, every day.

[p2501]

i'm sure the explosions didn't do any damage to the ground....

i'm also not sure if we're even thinking of chernobyl in the same way. sources i have read said that that chernobyl was STILL RUNNING when the meltdown occured. that is definitely not the case in japan.

1. The explosions don't need to damage the ground. They don't even need to damage the containment.

2. Operation status of the plant is irrelevant. IF the fuel in the rods start to melt and there is no or not sufficient cooling to the pressure vessel and the containment the fuel will melt through anything until dilution reaches a point where the heat isn't sufficient anymore to keep it flowing. And that will take it's time.

The zircaloy encasing of the rods is the most heat resistant of all materials in the reactor with it's melting point around 2000K. If that breaks down.....

Saaya, the pumps are broken? Didn't we already hear that replumbing to the pressurized cooling circuits is close to impossible, even more with so little man power?!

[RPGWiZaRD]

Every country got their ups and downs but this is something I REALLY like about japan http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/20...ting-in-japan/

[anubis]

RPGWiZaRD

+ 1

[PaganII]

Yeah, those crazy Californians bought up all the Iodine pills for themselves and they don't even need it!

The workers can't get close enough to the reactors to work on them. The water cannons are there to spray water at the reactors because they can't get close enough to pump it directly into them.

[MrToad]

Every country got their ups and downs but this is something I REALLY like about japan http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/20...ting-in-japan/

+1 Indeed

It's awe inspiring.

[saaya]

1000 Tons of spent fuel rods? ohhhhh crap... :S
does anybody know why the radiation spiked like that?
was it just before the explosions? or after the explosions?

[saaya]

Saaya, the pumps are broken? Didn't we already hear that replumbing to the pressurized cooling circuits is close to impossible, even more with so little man power?!

not sure, they mentioned that the pumps were broken and that they will use make-shift pumps (?) whatever that means...

[saaya]

spent fuel tanks need 50 tons of water every day to keep the temperature stable...

daym... didnt know this stuff produces this much heat still...
i thought those were burned out rods???

[MrToad]

not sure, they mentioned that the pumps were broken and that they will use make-shift pumps (?) whatever that means...

I'd assume they'll try to plumb portable pumps to the existing piping.

I've never seen the pumps of a nuclear plant, but I've seen the ones on a different kind of thermal power station (the coal burning type) and is not the kind of thing you can change in a whim... They were big... As in "room sized" big...

[saaya]

I'd assume they'll try to plumb portable pumps to the existing piping.

I've never seen the pumps of a nuclear plant, but I've seen the ones on a different kind of thermal power station (the coal burning type) and is not the kind of thing you can change in a whim... They were big... As in "room sized" big...

yes, in an earlier report they were looking for heavy transport vehicles, both ships and trucks, to move equipment to the plant

just heard on NHK tv:
water cannon opteration has been ABORTED
they couldnt get close enough to the reactors due to high radiation...

i dont get it...
if radiation is so high, why arent there any reports about it?
and if radiation is NOT that high, why arent they getting closer?
i mean come on... if all it takes is to drive a watercannon truck close enough to the reactor on a suicide mission, FFS, sign me up and ill do it!

same for the helicopter action, they didnt get close enough because radiation was around 70mSv? 70? thats nothing... i thought the reactor was putting out over 400 yesterday and workers were still there and the gov officials said this isnt really dangerous...

the deadly dosis is 1000-2500 mSv isnt it?
and they are aborting missions that could prevent a disaster because staff is exposed to 70-90 mSv?

[MrToad]

yes, in an earlier report they were looking for heavy transport vehicles, both ships and trucks, to move equipment to the plant

just heard on NHK tv:
water cannon opteration has been ABORTED
they couldnt get close enough to the reactors due to high radiation...

i dont get it...
if radiation is so high, why arent there any reports about it?
and if radiation is NOT that high, why arent they getting closer?
i mean come on... if all it takes is to drive a watercannon truck close enough to the reactor on a suicide mission, FFS, sign me up and ill do it!

same for the helicopter action, they didnt get close enough because radiation was around 70mSv? 70? thats nothing... i thought the reactor was putting out over 400 yesterday and workers were still there and the gov officials said this isnt really dangerous...

the deadly dosis is 1000-2500 mSv isnt it?
and they are aborting missions that could prevent a disaster because staff is exposed to 70-90 mSv?

Again I'm making an educated guess here, but in the light of how things have developed on the last six days I don't believe a single "suicide mission" (ala Bruce Willis) is going to cut it here.

It looks like is more a matter of a continuous organized effort to bring the situation under control.

A single truck driven close to the reactor would just be a life risked in vain and another piece of clutter to remove when the actual pumps arrive.

By the way, I find difficult sometimes to convey my ideas in a way that doesn't look abrasive (probably because English is not my first language). I'm just expressing a view that differs from yours Saaya, I'm not "having a go" at you.

[Erklat]

I don't see any Aleksandr Akimovs here, myself included.

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk

[Dr_Swizz]

http://www.unscear.org/unscear/en/chernobyl.html

It's all there mate. hard to argue with. They now say 4000 was overestimate. Latest update is year 2008.

At least 10% of the Liquadators have died (of 600000-1000000 people)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquidator_%28Chernobyl%29
and on top of that you have all the civilian deaths.
So as I said before your 4000 figure is way too low. It is also way to precise. Nobody really know exactly how many died. The Soviet Union did their best to cover it up and the legacy of that secrecy remain to this day.
Also please do not blindly trust a single source of information, especially regarding an issue where no consensus has been reached and some parties (in this case the nuclear industri) has a strong interest in suppressing the truth.

@ saaya:
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/as...413417272.html
The conditions for the workers seem to become more and more like Chernobyl. :-(

[saaya]

Again I'm making an educated guess here, but in the light of how things have developed on the last six days I don't believe a single "suicide mission" (ala Bruce Willis) is going to cut it here.

It looks like is more a matter of a continuous organized effort to bring the situation under control.

A single truck driven close to the reactor would just be a life risked in vain and another piece of clutter to remove when the actual pumps arrive.

By the way, I find difficult sometimes to convey my ideas in a way that doesn't look abrasive (probably because English is not my first language). I'm just expressing a view that differs from yours Saaya, I'm not "having a go" at you.

your the second person that points out that your just disagreeing with me and not attacking me... am i really that sensitive?
maybe its my answers towards people that disagree with me, that seem too rude and thats why you point out you dont want to offend me?

no worries at all, im not easy to get offended at all
ive been a mod and admin here on xs for years and plenty of people that were really good at getting everybody to the boiling point only made me chuckle, so dont worry ive got a pretty thick skin
too thick, thats why many people call me insensitive and rude ^^

so yeah, i thought the same thing...
but what i dont get is why they use tanks on the trucks, why dont they hook them up to the local water system or to the ocean to have unlimited water supply?

UPDATE: the military is now spraying water at reactor3...
my guess is that the soldiers are volunteers that are accepting the high risk of radiation exposure, the police wasnt willing or allowed to get that much exposure...

brave soldiers who are driving onto the reactor compound right now in an attempt to cool reactor3 and reduce radioactivity so engineers can fix/install the electric cooling system...

[saaya]

thanks swizz, i really like al jazeeras live blogs about current events, very useful...
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/asia...h-17-live-blog

11:45am
The New York Times has reported that a United Nations forecast of the possible movement of the radioactive plume coming from crippled Japanese reactors shows it churning across the Pacific, and touching the Aleutian Islands on Thursday before hitting Southern California late Friday.

3:04pm
The New York Times offers a good oversight of the six quake stricken reactors at the Fukushima power nuclear plant: Status of the Nuclear Reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi Power Plant
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...status.html?hp

reactor3 contains plutonium? uh... isnt that the one that is in worst shape? argh...

[saaya]

news conference right now on NHK live
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv

[saaya]

the batteries of the backup cooling system can be recharged/replaced to kickstart the original cooling system in case they cant hook up electricity directly

there are concerns over salt concentrations increasing since the sea water contains a lot of salt and is evaporating

the eastern walls of reactor4 have collapsed
containment structure is ok (but they didnt mention the spent fuel pool in reactor4 being ok)

thats all?
that was a short press conference and no real news :/

[MrToad]

your the second person that points out that your just disagreeing with me and not attacking me... am i really that sensitive?
maybe its my answers towards people that disagree with me, that seem too rude and thats why you point out you dont want to offend me?

no worries at all, im not easy to get offended at all
ive been a mod and admin here on xs for years and plenty of people that were really good at getting everybody to the boiling point only made me chuckle, so dont worry ive got a pretty thick skin
too thick, thats why many people call me insensitive and rude ^^

Hahahhahaha, nope, is just... This thread is dealing with really sensitive issues and I feel I'm walking on very thin ice all the time... I don't want to rub anyone the wrong way even if it's not intentional but a linguistic deficiency...

so yeah, i thought the same thing...
but what i dont get is why they use tanks on the trucks, why dont they hook them up to the local water system or to the ocean to have unlimited water supply?

Again another educated guess, I presume the local water system has been affected by the earthquake/tsunami (the news have been reporting general disruptions on the water grid and difficulty delivering clean water to the affected areas) and the pumps installed on the fire trucks are not designed for pumping sea water or continuous operation...

UPDATE: the military is now spraying water at reactor3...
my guess is that the soldiers are volunteers that are accepting the high risk of radiation exposure, the police wasnt willing or allowed to get that much exposure...

brave soldiers who are driving onto the reactor compound right now in an attempt to cool reactor3 and reduce radioactivity so engineers can fix/install the electric cooling system...

Yeah, sometimes there's a difference between what one is willing to do and what one is allowed to do... Putting one's life in harm's way to protect others is a very noble act, but if it's done without a clear purpose it only adds to the problem...

The military should have specific training and equipment to deal with radioactive incidents, I hope is enough for the task ahead. If we're right and they're going to try to plumb portable pumps that's going to require a lot of courage and a lot of skill...

[Think]

Israel "fears sushi shortage.:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...042347,00.html

You have got to be kidding

[saaya]

Israel "fears sushi shortage.:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...042347,00.html

You have got to be kidding

ive been saying the same thing, worst case scenario i expect most of the radiation to leak into the seawater seeing as fukushima is next to the ocean and close to sea level...
so yeah, sushi might be expensive in the future... (im going to have sushi for dinner tonight :P)

but yeah, this is pretty distatesteful to report in a newspaper when so many people are suffering and in such a bad situation... the lack of empathy is saddening...

electric power generators at the plant are NOT functional since they have been covered in salt water/sea water, so they are probably shorted...
thats why they are planning to set up "make-shift" pumps... (whatever that means)

[the finisher]

Israel "fears sushi shortage.:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...042347,00.html

You have got to be kidding

mm, this is some crap here!

Empathy, the opposite of ignorance and hate.

[MrToad]

ive been saying the same thing, worst case scenario i expect most of the radiation to leak into the seawater seeing as fukushima is next to the ocean and close to sea level...
so yeah, sushi might be expensive in the future... (im going to have sushi for dinner tonight :P)

but yeah, this is pretty distatesteful to report in a newspaper when so many people are suffering and in such a bad situation... the lack of empathy is saddening...

electric power generators at the plant are NOT functional since they have been covered in salt water/sea water, so they are probably shorted...
thats why they are planning to set up "make-shift" pumps... (whatever that means)

Yeah, I had the same kind of empathic and heartwarming comments today @ work...

Mainly people moaning about an impending shortage/price hike on high quality optics and other material goods.

There were other even less humane comments but I don't think those need to/should be repeated here.

I want to think that most of us are empathic/sympathetic with the people of Japan and we are prepared to carry that sympathy through the difficult years ahead...

[saaya]

the water cannon mission from the military has been successful, they injected around 30 tons of water into the spent fuel rod pool of reactor3
the spent fuel rod pool of reactor3 holds only 1200 tons of water, compared to 2000 tons of reactor4
there was an interesting comment... they said they only have to fill the rank by 1/3 to cover the fuel rods... which sounds like they were NOT covered by water prior to this mission!
it also sounds like the rods are STILL partially exposed in reactor3s spent fuel rod pool... because 30 tons of water wont all go into the pool, and its unlikely that 30 tons make the difference in a 1200 ton pool between not covered and covered...

[Postmodum]

and from those 30 tons ... we must account the evaporation of the water too ... so .. :x

And radioactive levels rose to 4,000 microsievert per hour from 3,700, due to higher steam concentration ...