MCR-QP Stackable Radiator Series Released

[pneubmatic]

OK, I've been playing around with my new Swiftech rad sandwich for most of the day. Some random thoughts about it...

1. As mentioned, it did not come with the instructions it was supposed to have. It had the "Warning, don't put a hole in your radiator with screws that are too long!" sheet in it. The very same sheet that came with my first MCR320-QP-K which was not stackable. This is strictly a guess, but I'm thinking there was some confusion somewhere at Swiftech, and whoever was supposed to make sure the actual *stackable instructions* from Gabe's link above screwed up; they put the "Warning! Don't punch a hole in your radiator with screws that are too long!" in the box, but failed to put the instruction sheets in the box. I did print up the instructions from Gabe's link. The very first section of the instructions gave the "warning! don't put a hole in your radiator with screws that are too long!" warning, so I kinda think the seperate sheet with that warning wasn't supposed to be included. Gabe, if you should happen to read this, you might want to call one of your retailers (I got mine from Jab-Tech) that have the stackable radiator in stock, and ask them exactly what pieces of paper they have in their boxes. Make sure you are super clear that a sheet that just has the warning about screw lengths isn't what should be there. It should be three sheets of paper detailing the installation instructions.

2. You must be *very very* accurate in the lengths of tubing that you cut for the small fittings. If you're going to screw up the length, do it shorter rather than longer. If your tube is cut even just a touch long, the snap rivets won't be able to seat correctly. Trust me on this.

3. The tubing junction should either have two wider worm gear clamps, or four of the small ones included. Centering the narrow gear clamp so that it gets equal purchase on both of the short fittings is not easy. Especially if you cut your tube 1/16" too long. It would be much more secure to have two of the small gear clamps on each fitting. OK, that sounds confusing. Let's just say it would be great to have a total of four worm gear clamps, just like the two that are included.

4. The extra rivets came in handy. This is also why it's best to err on the short side on the tubing. The rivets are completely dependent on seating *ALL* the way in order to provide a good attachment for the fans. If your tube is cut even ever so slightly long, this isn't going to happen, and the rivets will not be holding nearly as well as they should. Unfortunately, I cut my tubing a bit on the long side. The rivets at the other end of the rad were able to get a good seat, but as you work closer to the fittings end, a gap becomes visible and widens til you get to the last fan mounting holes, which really have a nasty gap. Totally my fault, and easily fixed, either by making sure you cut the tubing correctly, or talking Gabe into bumping the price of the rad up a few bucks and giving us pre-cut lengths for both 25 mm fans and 38 mm fans.

5. Amazingly, my flow rate did not drop at all after installing the second rad. I had exactly one GPM prior to installing the second radiator, and that's exactly what I have now. Pretty wild... I don't know how it's possible, but I double checked the flow rate.

6. Great temp results so far. I had six fans on my single MCR320-qp-k, but right now I only have three total on the rad sandwich. I have six more on order so that I can totally max out the rad sandwich with nine fans. So right now, I've lost three fans but gained one radiator. My temps have dropped 5 C at idle, and 8 degrees when loaded. I'm expecting that adding another six fans will change those numbers quite a bit.

7. The inside of the radiator was totally clean. I flushed it like crazy, and got absolutely nothing out of it.

All said, I'm very happy with it. Thanks Gabe and Swiftech!

[gabe]

OK, I've been playing around with my new Swiftech rad sandwich for most of the day. Some random thoughts about it...

1. As mentioned, it did not come with the instructions it was supposed to have.

I am confirming that there were NO installation guides included. There was a misunderstanding internally. We are mailing the missing installation guides to resellers today.

2. You must be *very very* accurate in the lengths of tubing that you cut for the small fittings. If you're going to screw up the length, do it shorter rather than longer. If your tube is cut even just a touch long, the snap rivets won't be able to seat correctly. Trust me on this.

I have added a statement in the installation guide to further warn users about this:

3. The tubing junction should either have two wider worm gear clamps, or four of the small ones included. Centering the narrow gear clamp so that it gets equal purchase on both of the short fittings is not easy. Especially if you cut your tube 1/16" too long. It would be much more secure to have two of the small gear clamps on each fitting. OK, that sounds confusing. Let's just say it would be great to have a total of four worm gear clamps, just like the two that are included.

I agree that 4 clamps would be ideal, unfortunately there is not enough room for that (if you use 25mm fans in between the rads).

The width of the band for mini worm drive clamps is 0.300" (7.8mm). This is too wide to use behind the barb.. so you have to use it over the barb to make the seal. Using one clamp over 2 barbs sits the band true over the barbs. We didn't find that centering the clamp was particularly difficult to accomplish, so didn't see it as a problem.

If anyone has a better solution, let me know.

.. talking Gabe into bumping the price of the rad up a few bucks and giving us pre-cut lengths for both 25 mm fans and 38 mm fans.

I have practical issues with that, issues that I couldn't fix at the time of release:

1/ we are held by a higher standard, so we would need to cut the tubes absolutely square. We need to find good cutting equipment for that. Right now tube cutting is not our primary activity as you can imagine, so we are not properly equipped for it.

2/ with cost of labor being so high, we need to automate the process. It becomes a question of capital investment. We released the stackables following demand from XS members.. so it was a trial, and we made a small quantity to test the market. If the product takes off, then I'd would certainly be inclined to provide precut tubing.

[pneubmatic]

I am confirming that there were NO installation guides included. There was a misunderstanding internally. We are mailing the missing installation guides to resellers today.

I have added a statement in the installation guide to further warn users about this:



I agree that 4 clamps would be ideal, unfortunately there is not enough room for that (if you use 25mm fans in between the rads).

The width of the band for mini worm drive clamps is 0.300" (7.8mm). This is too wide to use behind the barb.. so you have to use it over the barb to make the seal. Using one clamp over 2 barbs sits the band true over the barbs. We didn't find that centering the clamp was particularly difficult to accomplish, so didn't see it as a problem.

If anyone has a better solution, let me know.

I have practical issues with that, issues that I couldn't fix at the time of release:

1/ we are held by a higher standard, so we would need to cut the tubes absolutely square. We need to find good cutting equipment for that. Right now tube cutting is not our primary activity as you can imagine, so we are not properly equipped for it.

2/ with cost of labor being so high, we need to automate the process. It becomes a question of capital investment. We released the stackables following demand from XS members.. so it was a trial, and we made a small quantity to test the market. If the product takes off, then I'd would certainly be inclined to provide precut tubing.

OK, to start off, this is exactly why I will continue to buy and use Swiftech products. It's not often that the CEO of a company will come to a forum and give responses to his customer's concerns. Yup, you may call me an official Swiftech fan boi now if you'd like.

I'm the reason they have to put "Warning!" labels on everything. Looks like I succeeded again here.

I completely understand what you're saying about including the tubing. Hopefully the new rad will take off and you'll be able to justify the additional expense.

Now about the worm gear clamps... I was able to find some small enough that you could put two per fitting on the MCR320 rad sandwhich. However, the max OD they will accommodate is 5/8". I got them at Home Depot. They are labeled "Ideal Stainless Steel Hi-Grade Nickel Alloy SAE SIZE #4, model No. 62604" They will work on Tygon tubing that is 1/2" ID X 5/8" OD. I am using 25 mm fans, too. Scythe SFF21G's to be exact.

Thanks for your response, Gabe, and thanks for the outstanding products, too.

[gillbot]

However, the max OD they will accommodate is 5/8". I got them at Home Depot. They are labeled "Ideal Stainless Steel Hi-Grade Nickel Alloy SAE SIZE #4, model No. 62604" They will work on Tygon tubing that is 1/2" ID X 5/8" OD.

Thanks for your response, Gabe, and thanks for the outstanding products, too.

I buy the same at Lowes in a 10 pack for a few $. Size 4 Ideal and they are rather thin compared to the typical tube clamp.

[gabe]

OK, to start off, this is exactly why I will continue to buy and use Swiftech products. It's not often that the CEO of a company will come to a forum and give responses to his customer's concerns. Yup, you may call me an official Swiftech fan boi now if you'd like.

I'm the reason they have to put "Warning!" labels on everything. Looks like I succeeded again here.

I completely understand what you're saying about including the tubing. Hopefully the new rad will take off and you'll be able to justify the additional expense.

Now about the worm gear clamps... I was able to find some small enough that you could put two per fitting on the MCR320 rad sandwhich. However, the max OD they will accommodate is 5/8". I got them at Home Depot. They are labeled "Ideal Stainless Steel Hi-Grade Nickel Alloy SAE SIZE #4, model No. 62604" They will work on Tygon tubing that is 1/2" ID X 5/8" OD. I am using 25 mm fans, too. Scythe SFF21G's to be exact.

Thanks for your response, Gabe, and thanks for the outstanding products, too.

ok, I will look into it.

[3Z3VH]

...
1/ we are held by a higher standard, so we would need to cut the tubes absolutely square. We need to find good cutting equipment for that. Right now tube cutting is not our primary activity as you can imagine, so we are not properly equipped for it.

2/ with cost of labor being so high, we need to automate the process. It becomes a question of capital investment. We released the stackables following demand from XS members.. so it was a trial, and we made a small quantity to test the market. If the product takes off, then I'd would certainly be inclined to provide precut tubing.

Perhaps you could even offer a "Premium Stack" that uses SLI Watercooling Bridges between the two radiators ? It would certainly look cleaner, and more solid.

[pneubmatic]

Perhaps you could even offer a "Premium Stack" that uses SLI Watercooling Bridges between the two radiators ? It would certainly look cleaner, and more solid.

That would be great, but it would only work for guys with 38 mm fans. The SLI fittings are too long even at their shortest to work with 25 mm fans.

[3Z3VH]

That would be great, but it would only work for guys with 38 mm fans. The SLI fittings are too long even at their shortest to work with 25 mm fans.

Hmmm... interesting... I figured when Gabe posted this that the diagram, not his text, was the correct number...

To All:

The schematic below will put the debate to a rest.

To anyone in the "No" crowd, I am asking to please measure your SLI fittings (or whatever 1/4" BSPP fitting you plan on using), from base of the flange, to tip of the fitting, and report here.. if it exceeds 8.3mm (0.32"), it won't work, at least with a 25mm fan.

If using a 38mm, then MAX fitting length from flange base to fitting tip should not exceed 14.8mm (0.58")

That diagram stated 18.4mm, while the SLI bridge is 18.0mm, expandable to 30.0mm.

I understand that the alignment may not be perfect, but that isn't as large a problem since I don't feel the "sandwich clips" for the fans are necessary if you use an external solution such as zip ties to hold the sandwich together. It would have been nice to see the "Stack Radiator" designed so the screws can simply pass all the way through the finned portion so you can just pass a screw through the entire rad and fans, and into the other rad.

Edit: Also, Gabe... would it be possible to have a "Serial Stack" radiator made ?

What I mean is... the regular MCR if you look directly at it, has a V-shape between the two barbs... if you simply designed the top of the Stacking radiator so one barb is moved to the center of that V, you could stack these in a serial configuration without worrying about fitting compatibility or clearance, or using special fan shrouds to gain enough spacing.

[pneubmatic]

Hmmm... interesting... I figured when Gabe posted this that the diagram, not his text, was the correct number...


That diagram stated 18.4mm, while the SLI bridge is 18.0mm, expandable to 30.0mm.

I understand that the alignment may not be perfect, but that isn't as large a problem since I don't feel the "sandwich clips" for the fans are necessary if you use an external solution such as zip ties to hold the sandwich together. It would have been nice to see the "Stack Radiator" designed so the screws can simply pass all the way through the finned portion so you can just pass a screw through the entire rad and fans, and into the other rad.

Edit: Also, Gabe... would it be possible to have a "Serial Stack" radiator made ?

What I mean is... the regular MCR if you look directly at it, has a V-shape between the two barbs... if you simply designed the top of the Stacking radiator so one barb is moved to the center of that V, you could stack these in a serial configuration without worrying about fitting compatibility or clearance, or using special fan shrouds to gain enough spacing.

Great info, thanks for that! If that post you referenced is correct, then the SLI fittings you linked to would work perfectly. I'd order them right now, but then I would have to take the whole thing apart, install the SLI fittings, then try and re-use the snap rivets. Shoot... if I had enough extra rivets I'd do it for sure. That is definitely a MUCH better solution to joining the rads together than tubing.

[MrToad]

2/ with cost of labor being so high, we need to automate the process. It becomes a question of capital investment. We released the stackables following demand from XS members.. so it was a trial, and we made a small quantity to test the market. If the product takes off, then I'd would certainly be inclined to provide precut tubing.

With all due respect to your business vision Gabe, IMHO, if the product does take off (and I really don't see a reason why it shouldn't... it is a really good idea) providing pre-cut tubing might not be the best option.

As you already provide with those stubby fittings (which do have a cost attached to them), and you've already said that you are not properly tooled to do so (which means, atm is a blank canvas), and considering that tubing is a perishable item, it might be worth looking into making something like the BitsPower D-Plugs.

I'm sure a designs that fits both 25 and 37 mm fan spacing is possible (Koolance does it with the RAM fittings, so does BitsPower with the D-Plugs, using a slightly different solution), it's a permanent fixture (only the O-Rings are perishable, and those are really easy/cheap to source), and a much more elegant solution.

And saves you the headache of researching the automated tube cutting tool and the investment on such contraption.

As I said, just a suggestion. There might be hidden obstacles that I fail to see.

[zlojack]

With all due respect to your business vision Gabe, IMHO, if the product does take off (and I really don't see a reason why it shouldn't... it is a really good idea) providing pre-cut tubing might not be the best option.

As you already provide with those stubby fittings (which do have a cost attached to them), and you've already said that you are not properly tooled to do so (which means, atm is a blank canvas), and considering that tubing is a perishable item, it might be worth looking into making something like the BitsPower D-Plugs.

I'm sure a designs that fits both 25 and 37 mm fan spacing is possible (Koolance does it with the RAM fittings, so does BitsPower with the D-Plugs, using a slightly different solution), it's a permanent fixture (only the O-Rings are perishable, and those are really easy/cheap to source), and a much more elegant solution.

And saves you the headache of researching the automated tube cutting tool and the investment on such contraption.

As I said, just a suggestion. There might be hidden obstacles that I fail to see.

One of the obstacles is the QC on the rads themselves (as mentioned earlier in this thread) which would mean the fittings might not line up 100% if they were hard mounted as opposed to tubing.

[MrToad]

One of the obstacles is the QC on the rads themselves (as mentioned earlier in this thread) which would mean the fittings might not line up 100% if they were hard mounted as opposed to tubing.

Hmmm... that's a bummer. I'm used to 1/10 mm tolerances. Sometimes I forget not everything is manufactured to that standard

Oh well, nvm

[3Z3VH]

...
I'm sure a designs that fits both 25 and 37 mm fan spacing is possible (Koolance does it with the RAM fittings, so does BitsPower with the D-Plugs, using a slightly different solution), it's a permanent fixture (only the O-Rings are perishable, and those are really easy/cheap to source), and a much more elegant solution.
...

The SLI Bridge I posted looks like it would fit for both 25mm, and 37mm...

At its shortest (18.0mm), it barely fits for a 25mm fan (18.4mm spacing), and at its longest (30.0mm), it could theoretically fit a 37mm fan (30.4mm spacing) with only a .4mm washer on one side of the fitting.

One of the obstacles is the QC on the rads themselves (as mentioned earlier in this thread) which would mean the fittings might not line up 100% if they were hard mounted as opposed to tubing.

Sounds to me like there is a market for a flexible D-Plug design... If this is even truly an issue, then all it would take on Swiftech's part, is 'binning' their radiators for the "Premium Stack" model... make sure the radiators they sell in that kit meet the tolerances required to square up that connector.