The Ethics of Overclocking

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Originally Posted by mike

I want rules. Fair. Play.

Why is it ok to have "extreme LOD" ( more extreme as normal max of 10 LOD ) in GOOC 2008 on ATI, but not ok in GOOC 2009 on Nvidia????

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Get your facts straight and then start to write this type of BS comments :down:

LOD is level of detail and with ati card you can do it manually from register. You can use setlod software with ATI cards. Program is coded by elmor I think. LOD is widely allowed, because the original data is never modified, but only the points of calculation are different. MIPMAP is altering the original data which should be calculated and that way the difference become huge in some situations.

So, in 2008 GOOC we used normal LOD and we set it to MAX value, which is 15 on both ATI and Nvidia. We won 3DMark06 part by 100 points,
which is still in normal error margin. Our CPU had the best clocks, if I remember correctly and VGA was 25MHz lower or something.
Our system was overclocked very nicely and the score was exactly what it should be,
so I really don't know why certain persons started to spread the rumour.

In GOOC 2009 some users played their hardware most propably at stock settings, turned off the monitor,
so no one could see what was going on.
They disabled the post processing and got huge boost in GT2.
This way the score is repeatable again and again.
They explained the weird screenshot by downclocking.

So all dirty tricks have been done in GOOC 2009 and the users who did it tried to give me stories about 2 SLI bridges and DX10 LOD. Cool!

Someone, please explain me LOD in DX10 or 11 and how that can be done :D Same goes for mipmap with DX10/11.

So, I have nothing to add for this original conversation and I think you are just wasting your time Mike.
HWbot and FM have already become a standards of overclockinh and the rules of HWbot are very widely accepted.
If you like to write your own rulebook, be my guest.

If I am totally wrong on some part, I can then read the whole thread.

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Originally Posted by SF3D

So, in 2008 GOOC we used normal LOD and we set it to MAX value, which is 15 on both ATI and Nvidia. We won 3DMark06 part by 100 points,
which is still in normal error margin. Our CPU had the best clocks, if I remember correctly and VGA was 25MHz lower or something.
Our system was overclocked very nicely and the score was exactly what it should be,
so I really don't know why certain persons started to spread the rumour.

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This isn't necessarily the best place, but I'm curious enough about the stuff I've heard involving GOOC 08.

It was just normal LOD that you guys used? And if so, what was the purpose of using it?

My 3 cents and you people know I have nothing to gain from any of this as I don't compete.

It seems to me that we as a community have a choice to make here.
1) We can sit and argue over what happened when in the past or
2) We can sit down,make some rules that all(or the vast majority) can agree on and go forward from there.

Do you want to argue endlessly or do you want to fix the problems so that we can bring back the fun part of the hobby?
The choice is yours.

Now I'd like to add my suggestions to try and create a even playing field.
1)Remove all software mods totally.
I mean all.
2) Designate a OS to be used in the competitions. IE: win32 Sp3,etc..
NO MODS to the OS at all.
No touching the registry at all
3) Tweaking settings for the app to be limited to areas that all agree on.
4) Hardware Mods: Allowed if done yourself.
5) No "Factory pros" allowed;IE: Guys like Hicookie,etc..
These guys should be allowed to be the teachers in the hobby.
To show what can be done and yes, tout the companies they work for.

This should at least be a start to get a level playing field.

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Originally Posted by Gautam

This isn't necessarily the best place, but I'm curious enough about the stuff I've heard involving GOOC 08.

It was just normal LOD that you guys used? And if so, what was the purpose of using it?

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Yes. You can try this software: http://www.elmor.se/software
That is the very same LOD method what we all have used with Nvidia cards for example in 3DM01.

There is nothing in that software / registry settings which will alter the original data or mess up the screen totally. We got 29.600 points and second team 29430 or something. The minor difference is the reason we used it and that is the reason most of the overclockers use it in their every bench session.

We had a huge amount of people behind us during the runs, and if the screen would have looked somehow weird or messed up, I think the judges would have done something. There was: Shamino, Saaya, Sampsa and many more behind us while we did the final run.

Certain persons have tried to spread this rumour about "cheating" in GOOC 2008 intentionally to use it as a justification of their own real cheating year later.

Every time I've tried LOD in 3DMark06 on ATi, it doesn't help at all, but rather makes the score go down fairly consistently. :S :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Gautam

Every time I've tried LOD in 3DMark06 on ATi, it doesn't help at all, but rather makes the score go down fairly consistently. :S :shrug:

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It is still a CPU benchmark, so our CPU can explain the huge 100 point difference. That was the way score was produced and it is totally legal score with multiple witnesses.

I think that there never were any real issue in GOOC 2008 scores we did and the guys who still like to spread the rumour, should look in the mirror :down:

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Originally Posted by Movieman

My 3 cents and you people know I have nothing to gain from any of this as I don't compete.

It seems to me that we as a community have a choice to make here.
1) We can sit and argue over what happened when in the past or
2) We can sit down,make some rules that all(or the vast majority) can agree on and go forward from there.

Do you want to argue endlessly or do you want to fix the problems so that we can bring back the fun part of the hobby?
The choice is yours.

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There is no point in arguing over what happened in the past, except the fact that the only problems we have come exactly from what happened in the past. Nobody took the blame (I am talking about a sportsman attitude, nothing more), and now people try to convince us that what happened was ok, because of who did it. That is completly BS if you ask me, and nothing can be solved as long as there is no honor anymore.

Regarding the rules, just like Petri said above, HWBot and FM rules are widely accepted since a long time ago, and there have been no problem with those rules. If HWBot / FM rules are adopted for all live events, I think there will be absolutely no problems in the future from this perspective. The only problem occured due to the fact that GOOC 2009 did not use these rules, hence somebody used something that was not forbbiden in that competition, but it is a cheat according to HWB & FM rules (the score could not be validated on ORB => doesn't matter what they did, it is not a valid result). Now we are talking about ethics? :)

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Originally Posted by computurd

you have to cheat to stay competitive

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This way of thinking explains a lot... And there I was thinking it was all about skill, luck, honour and friendship...silly me.

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Originally Posted by Monstru

There is no point in arguing over what happened in the past, except the fact that the only problems we have come exactly from what happened in the past. Nobody took the blame (I am talking about a sportsman attitude, nothing more), and now people try to convince us that what happened was ok, because of who did it. That is completly BS if you ask me, and nothing can be solved as long as there is no honor anymore.

Regarding the rules, just like Petri said above, HWBot and FM rules are widely accepted since a long time ago, and there have been no problem with those rules. If HWBot / FM rules are adopted for all live events, I think there will be absolutely no problems in the future from this perspective. The only problem occured due to the fact that GOOC 2009 did not use these rules, hence somebody used something that was not forbbiden in that competition, but it is a cheat according to HWB & FM rules (the score could not be validated on ORB => doesn't matter what they did, it is not a valid result). Now we are talking about ethics? :)

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BUT the one important change that I think is needed is to reverse the logic of the rules.
Instead of saying "It wasn't disallowed so I thought it was fair to do"
make it that only what is stated is allowed and if not stated it is not allowed.
Then you close all the doors to what has been described as illegal cheats.
IE: If you don't see it as allowed you can't do it period!

Now, when I started to talk about GOOC 2008,
I will destroy this rumour or at least I try.

Pictures are the best proof before anything else.
I have asked few people to send me the photos of the 3DM06 session and if I remember correctly,
there was few very good ones.

I found one already from one article:
http://sf3d.pp.fi/images/open/X-2008102617000406299.jpg

In there you can see the amount of people around as before final 1 or 2 runs.
You can also see the GT2 firefly test running on the screen and that should be enough to clear all :banana::banana::banana::banana: talk about cheating. There must be some video material of these runs as well, because there was people with videocameras. If I could remember who they were, I could ask them to check their material.

Full quality and better pictures coming, if I can find them.
Unbelievable, that I have to deal with this kind of BS 2 years after nothing even happened. :shakes:

Well, for me, I'm not horribly bothered that mipmap was used, so I wouldn't be bothered if you guys used something beyond LOD...it'd involve more creativity than the usual at these live events.

I think we are going in circles , round and round and around again :/ , for example take this baby , she kept going in circles without even known she is doing so. We need a complete overhaul in the sets of rules in my opinion , be it for competitions hwbot , FM etc...

http://images.encyclopediadramatica..../86/Haters.gif

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Originally Posted by Gautam

Well, for me, I'm not horribly bothered that mipmap was used, so I wouldn't be bothered if you guys used something beyond LOD...it'd involve more creativity than the usual at these live events.

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Yes, we all saw that in GOOC 2009. It is very creative to shut off monitor and use stock clocks. Fool everyone in the room including other overclockers. Take 5000$ cash and walk away with the money :ROTF:

But why do you still try to twist that thing around from 2008 part? It looks quite childish for me :rofl:

Well, it is fairly small group of overclockers, who still spread the rumour and believe it. I don't care a bit as long as I know that there was nothing illegal in there.

Like chispy stated, haters going to hate.. no matter what you do.

I don't want to twist anything. I wasn't at either 08 or 09, so I don't even know what happened at either and consequently can't say anything about it. I'm just trying to figure out what did.

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Originally Posted by Gautam

I don't want to twist anything. I wasn't at either 08 or 09, so I don't even know what happened at either and consequently can't say anything about it. I'm just trying to figure out what did.

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Enough drama from my part in this thread.
I might post the proof here or somewhere else, if needed.

I think the ones who have really cheated in live competitions or elsewhere, will have to deal with it themselves.
I think it is good enough punishment for GOOC 2009 guys and many others, that they know what they have done and it was wrong.
I don't think there is that many psychopaths around,
so there must be bunch of guys having very bad conscience at the moment :down:

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Originally Posted by SF3D

Enough drama from my part in this thread.
I might post the proof here or somewhere else, if needed.

I think the ones who have really cheated in live competitions or elsewhere, will have to deal with it themselves.
I think it is good enough punishment for GOOC 2009 guys and many others, that they know what they have done and it was wrong.
I don't think there is that many psychopaths around,
so there must be bunch of guys having very bad conscience at the moment :down:

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My friend, Can I suggest that we put our efforts into what will come instead of what has happenned 1-2 years ago?
In many years of management I learned" Solve the problem" and if we keep going into the past we will get nowhere.

yea, and part of the problem is the bot. we need a separate independent organization, such as real sports do, that would watch for abuses. Sorry, but the bot is a for profit organization, a marketing machine. soon they will have links by the products themselves to sites where you can buy stuff. that in turn will turn the mfc's into setting up teams so that their products get into the top listings. gonna make it worse. much worse. that type of thing feeds upon itself.
we need something independent. there are too many individuals there that are just part of the problem, rather than the solution.

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Originally Posted by Movieman

My friend, Can I suggest that we put our efforts into what will come instead of what has happenned 1-2 years ago?
In many years of management I learned" Solve the problem" and if we keep going into the past we will get nowhere.

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Yes Dave. But sorry, that I have to reply to you like this.

I was not the one who intentionally spread the rumour of something what never happened. So the point where my calmness was gone was few hours a go, when I saw the comment by Mike. I will not just watch it over and over again, when lies are thrown in to the public forums.

Why there is still some need to bring this BS up in the air anyway. The ones who do it, should look at the mirror and ask, was it really necessary :shrug:

The part of putting efforts in to the future, I agree 100% :up:

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Originally Posted by Computurd

Sorry, but the bot is a for profit organization, a marketing machine.

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Look, I am used to a lot in discussions and normally can take quite a kick in the balls if needed, but this really strikes me. I think this comment might hurt the most.

So, I'm off. Gonna weep a bit on my Yacht. Maybe I'll even take my personal jet to Sin City and gamble my tears away.

profit ... :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Computurd

yea, and part of the problem is the bot. we need a separate independent organization, such as real sports do, that would watch for abuses. Sorry, but the bot is a for profit organization, a marketing machine. soon they will have links by the products themselves to sites where you can buy stuff. that in turn will turn the mfc's into setting up teams so that their products get into the top listings. gonna make it worse. much worse. that type of thing feeds upon itself.
we need something independent. there are too many individuals there that are just part of the problem, rather than the solution.

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I can't help myself....I just have to know.

Who exactly are you referring to that is part of the problem at HWBOT??

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Originally Posted by SF3D

Yes Dave. But sorry, that I have to reply to you like this.

I was not the one who intentionally spread the rumour of something what never happened. So the point where my calmness was gone was few hours a go, when I saw the comment by Mike. I will not just watch it over and over again, when lies are thrown in to the public forums.

Why there is still some need to bring this BS up in the air anyway. The ones who do it, should look at the mirror and ask, was it really necessary :shrug:

The part of putting efforts in to the future, I agree 100% :up:

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I saw Mike's comment as more of a question than accusation but even so I want to say this to you.
If and that is a big word someone did something in the past it's done period.
Let's move on and get some rules in place as I mentioned earlier.
I especially like the one of " If it isn't specifically stated as allowed it isn't"
That closes all the loopholes and excuses true?
Last: I met you in January 2009.
Do you think I would have walked up to you and stuck out my hand in friendship if I thought you were a cheater?
The answer is no, I'd have walked away as fast as my 2 legs would carry me.

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Originally Posted by Movieman

My 3 cents and you people know I have nothing to gain from any of this as I don't compete.

It seems to me that we as a community have a choice to make here.
1) We can sit and argue over what happened when in the past or
2) We can sit down,make some rules that all(or the vast majority) can agree on and go forward from there.

Do you want to argue endlessly or do you want to fix the problems so that we can bring back the fun part of the hobby?
The choice is yours.

Now I'd like to add my suggestions to try and create a even playing field.
1)Remove all software mods totally.
I mean all.
2) Designate a OS to be used in the competitions. IE: win32 Sp3,etc..
NO MODS to the OS at all.
No touching the registry at all
3) Tweaking settings for the app to be limited to areas that all agree on.
4) Hardware Mods: Allowed if done yourself.
5) No "Factory pros" allowed;IE: Guys like Hicookie,etc..
These guys should be allowed to be the teachers in the hobby.
To show what can be done and yes, tout the companies they work for.

This should at least be a start to get a level playing field.

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looks pretty good. I think SOME O/S "tricks" are OK but not at the registry level. It's ok to turn off the bling in WinXP. It's OK to set priority before a Spi run... stuff like that.
LOD manipulation for a 3D related benchie is inappropriate...

And YEAH... factory pro's should be excluded.

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Originally Posted by charlie

looks pretty good. I think SOME O/S "tricks" are OK but not at the registry level. It's ok to turn off the bling in WinXP. It's OK to set priority before a Spi run... stuff like that.
LOD manipulation for a 3D related benchie is inappropriate...

And YEAH... factory pro's should be excluded.

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Ok,then state them as allowed..
Point by point and then all are equal
Hell, if you and I can agree then maybe we can get others to do so also.:up:

sorry...i guess i should rephrase that...

seems to be turning into:

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a for profit organization, a marketing machine

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maybe not even by design, but it is good for marketing, how many people make their purchases based off of hwbot databases? i know in the past i have. so for mfcs there is big money involved. they want their :banana::banana::banana::banana: on top.

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Originally Posted by Movieman

My 3 cents and you people know I have nothing to gain from any of this as I don't compete.

It seems to me that we as a community have a choice to make here.
1) We can sit and argue over what happened when in the past or
2) We can sit down,make some rules that all(or the vast majority) can agree on and go forward from there.

Do you want to argue endlessly or do you want to fix the problems so that we can bring back the fun part of the hobby?
The choice is yours.

Now I'd like to add my suggestions to try and create a even playing field.
1)Remove all software mods totally.
I mean all.
2) Designate a OS to be used in the competitions. IE: win32 Sp3,etc..
NO MODS to the OS at all.
No touching the registry at all
3) Tweaking settings for the app to be limited to areas that all agree on.
4) Hardware Mods: Allowed if done yourself.
5) No "Factory pros" allowed;IE: Guys like Hicookie,etc..
These guys should be allowed to be the teachers in the hobby.
To show what can be done and yes, tout the companies they work for.

This should at least be a start to get a level playing field.

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With a set of rules like these you'll end up with whoever has the best CPU/GPU combo - or maybe the best modding skills. But... why should it be allowed to modify your hardware when modifying the OS is wrong? Perhaps the cards should have all the mods pre-done, so there is no disadvantage to those aren't that pro with the soldering iron.

It's better to list a :banana::banana::banana::banana:load of tweaks that are allowed, without explaining how to do them (that's up to the overclockers to find out...), and let the guys play with their gear. If someone comes up with something new, then they can't use it as it's not listed as a valid tweak.

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Originally Posted by knopflerbruce

With a set of rules like these you'll end up with whoever has the best CPU/GPU combo - or maybe the best modding skills. But... why should it be allowed to modify your hardware when modifying the OS is wrong? Perhaps the cards should have all the mods pre-done, so there is no disadvantage to those aren't that pro with the soldering iron.

It's better to list a :banana::banana::banana::banana:load of tweaks that are allowed, without explaining how to do them (that's up to the overclockers to find out...), and let the guys play with their gear. If someone comes up with something new, then they can't use it as it's not listed as a valid tweak.

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Hello my friend.
My thinking on allowing hardware tweaks is that isn't this all about personal skills?
Parts should be about what is available at retail and then if you can get another 50mhz out of your vid card by doing whatever hardware mod then your skills are better and you should win.
As to soldering skills I picked up a soldering gun for the first time in my life last year and after 15 mins of seeing what did what modded a board and I guarantee you that my 58 year old eyes are far worse than most on this forum.
I agree with you on listing what software tweaks are allowed BUT for the 3rd time I beleive you also have to add "If it isn't listed it's not allowed"
That is the key to me,eliminate anyone saying "It wasn't stated as being not allowed so I did it"