The GT300/Fermi Thread - Part 2!

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03-04-2010, 01:36 PM
Pekalion

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuffPCair

Well I just saw on nvidia driver site they already have 300 series on the list for driver downloads. So it must be getting close.......errrr

That is for the OEMs products, like GT340, GT320, etc. They have nothing to do with this one, that actually are GTX480.

So, the big impact is with tessallation ON that Nvidia gains a good margin of FPS than Ati, isn't it? So disabling tessallation in Ati will make things better for Ati... FPS are like around 40 FPS average without AA and only 1 of Aniso for both of them in Heaven benchmark, wich is like a huge demanding tittle... Bleh, lets wait for Fermi2 and HD6000 :p
03-04-2010, 01:39 PM
eric66

Quote:

Originally Posted by annihilat0r

avp maybe, haven't played it. dirt 2 and stalker? if 1 pixel changes because of tessellation I don't call it tessellation

what I call tessellation is the awesome rocky ground in Unigine Benchmark. I don't care if the left pocket button of an enemy is rendered in tessellation or not

uhmm that all you get folks :yepp: until further console upgrade of course sorry :p: 2900xt had awesome shader power also nearly was 2 3 times better than 8800gtx but no games used it so that made 2900xt be marked as flop same thing is gonna happen to gtx 480 imho
03-04-2010, 01:40 PM
Chumbucket843

those games dont have nearly as much (if any) tessellation compared to unigine. its a benchmark so it is designed to show how cards perform in games, not to provide some useless number. fermi is really good at handling the polys that tessellation creates.
03-04-2010, 01:40 PM
annihilat0r

Quote:

Originally Posted by eric66

uhmm that all you get folks :yepp: until further console upgrade of course sorry :p: 2900xt had awesome shader power also nearly was 2 3 times better than 8800gtx but no games used it so that made 2900xt be marked as flop same thing is gonna happen to gtx 480 imho

which is why we don't need performance
03-04-2010, 02:11 PM
Behemot

Quote:

Originally Posted by ***Deimos***

comments on razno's Fermi PCB photos:

As long as AMD uses digital VRM's, what is totaly different game, you just cannot compare it with NVIDIA's VRM.

This only confirms Fermi is really badly made and needs very clear voltage. More capacity is always better, but vendors tend to save costs. They will probably use less caps in order to save few bucks thus I expect (together with rumoured Fermi leakage etc.) very bad OC. At least compared to AMD's clocks targeting 1 GHz.
03-04-2010, 02:24 PM
cowie

should be easy to make a samwich gx2 thing out of this
03-04-2010, 02:32 PM
Behemot

Quote:

Originally Posted by cowie

should be easy to make a samwich gx2 thing out of this

Oh come on! NVIDIA is happy to actually make it run on full 512 shaders and about 600 MHz frequency, with TDP close or even over 200 W and you think they'll make GX2 the day after first cards launch?

If so, it won't came out sooner than mid to late summer and with far lower clocks. By that time with new AMD generation behind corner, it will be like with 9800 GX2: NVIDIA won the performance crown, but only for few weeks which means nohing, nobody was interested by that time...
03-04-2010, 02:40 PM
Jowy Atreides

Quote:

Originally Posted by Musho

Lol, guys, look at this screenshot. Nvidia is magically using version 1.1 of heaven. This could bring an improvement to the FPS numbers of heaven. We don't know whether they used 1.1 or 1.0 for their HD5870 benchmarks... Also, the HD5870 seems to catch up with higher IQ settings. I would love to see a benchmark with atleast 8x AF and 8x AA.

Anti Aliasing = off.

Says everything. ;)
03-04-2010, 03:25 PM
ElSel10

Quote:

Originally Posted by eric66

2900xt had awesome shader power also nearly was 2 3 times better than 8800gtx

Not at all. The 2900XT was very underpowered in terms of shader power. The 4870 and 5870 have the same kind of shaders as the 2900XT and they perform very well, because they are not underpowered like the 2900XT was.
03-04-2010, 03:29 PM
Yvese

So Charlie was right about its performance. No surprise there with his track record.

As long as the price is close to 5870 range for both the GTX470/480 I'll be happy. We need price drops bad.
03-04-2010, 03:34 PM
Nedjo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yvese

So Charlie was right about its performance. No surprise there with his track record.

As long as the price is close to 5870 range for both the GTX470/480 I'll be happy. We need price drops bad.

I don't see how can pricedrop happen?! Fermi will nested price/performance like this: 5850-Fermi-5870-Fermi-5970

So why would price of any of those cards come down? NV for sure doesn't want to start pricewar w/o enough ammo, and AMD definitely doesn't want to chase around with NV when their product will be hard to find anyway?!
03-04-2010, 03:35 PM
annihilat0r

If you're gonna sell only 5000 cards at launch you can price it whatever you want. Your losses or gains won't be incredibly high. And then you can continue mass production when yields have improved.

Say Nvidia prices the cards $200 lower than necessary to break even with production costs. What does it cost them at this stage (if the 5000 cards rumor is correct of course)? 1 million dollars. That's a lolzor amount for Nvidia.
03-04-2010, 03:39 PM
Solus Corvus

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajaidev

When tessellation will only have a ON and OFF option and the ON option will enable heavy tessellation that only Nvidia h/w can handle and ATi's 5870 may have a difficult time handling heavy tessellation.

What Nvidia will have is a legit excuse of why the games perform better on Nvidia hardware than ATi one. Just like Nvidia Physx was the keyword for 2009, tessellation may as well be a keyword for Nvidia for 2010 !!

So what? At least DX11 tessellation is a standard that both companies can implement. If ATI isn't fast enough at tessellation then that gives them something to work on. It's not like they are a stranger to tessellation. IMO, pushing for heavy tessellation in games is 100x better then pushing for proprietary features that only one company can run at all.

There are plenty of Nvidia actions that I have issue with. But making games look better by pushing for adoption of standards isn't one of them. Frankly, you are barking up the wrong tree.
03-04-2010, 03:40 PM
Sadasius

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nedjo

I don't see how can pricedrop happen?! Fermi will nested price/performance like this: 5850-Fermi-5870-Fermi-5970

So why would price of any of those cards come down? NV for sure doesn't want to start pricewar w/o enough ammo, and AMD definitely doesn't want to chase around with NV when their product will be hard to find anyway?!

I agree with this as well. We will have to wait and see what kind of availability is going to be around as well as performance to determine a price war if it's going to happen.
03-04-2010, 03:43 PM
Yvese

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nedjo

I don't see how can pricedrop happen?! Fermi will nested price/performance like this: 5850-Fermi-5870-Fermi-5970

So why would price of any of those cards come down? NV for sure doesn't want to start pricewar w/o enough ammo, and AMD definitely doesn't want to chase around with NV when their product will be hard to find anyway?!

Well ATi has had no competition for 6 months. They're in a very good position right now to ruin Fermi's launch ( Even though Fermi's launch is already ruined by having less than spectacular performance after 6 grueling months of waiting ). At the performance we've seen and is rumoured, ATi can easily reduce the price of their cards by $50 and call it a year. Doesn't matter if Nvidia prices their cards $100 higher than ATi's equivalent.

I just don't see anyone but die-hard Nvidia fanboys or those that will utilize GPGPU to buy these cards.
03-04-2010, 03:51 PM
RaV[666]

So, after 7 months of waiting GTX480 in probabaly most favourable to it benchmark is on average around 20% faster than 5870?
Thats not good.Ati wont have any incentive to lowering prices :(.And it looks as if charlie was pretty much correct, its late, it will be VERY limited edition ,its HOT and power hungry.
If we take into consideration that 5870 2GB with 1ghz core clock are just around the corner, it looks nvidia with its huge chip will have really small lead, 5% ?
Damn why i havent bought 5850 just after it premiered :( .I said to myself "wait a month or two ,and after fermi introduction it will go down in price man..." DAMN YOU ATI!
03-04-2010, 03:53 PM
Solus Corvus

Wow guys. Could we at least put off deciding if we are going to buy, or not, a fermi card until AFTER release when independent benchmarks from reputable sources have been done? :rolleyes:
03-04-2010, 03:59 PM
Yvese

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solus Corvus

Wow guys. Could we at least put off deciding if we are going to buy, or not, a fermi card until AFTER release when independent benchmarks from reputable sources have been done? :rolleyes:

But we already know its performance so there's no need to wait. We know Fermi does Tessellation well. The guy in the video even says it's what sets them apart from the competition. This is exactly what Charlie said. He also said the GTX480 is only 0-5% faster than the 5870. He's been right for months now, so I'm going by his word.

Like I said, there's no reason to buy this card unless you're a die-hard Nvidia fan or use GPGPU apps.
03-04-2010, 04:00 PM
annihilat0r

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yvese

But we already know its performance so there's no need to wait. [...] This is exactly what Charlie said. He also said the GTX480 is only 0-5% faster than the 5870.

Mind if I sig this?
03-04-2010, 04:02 PM
Sam_oslo

nVidia doesn't have to beat ATi with more than ~10-20% all over the line up to make a success out of Fermi. Don't forget that the 5870 with that hefting price tag (comperad to 5850), is only ~10-20% better than 5850.

If GTX 480 is ~10-20% better than 5870 then nVidia has a winner, for sure, even after 6 mounts. Unless ATi can release a new/refresh card to match/beat it at the launch time.
03-04-2010, 04:07 PM
zerazax

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaV[666]

So, after 7 months of waiting GTX480 in probabaly most favourable to it benchmark is on average around 20% faster than 5870?
Thats not good.Ati wont have any incentive to lowering prices :(.And it looks as if charlie was pretty much correct, its late, it will be VERY limited edition ,its HOT and power hungry.
If we take into consideration that 5870 2GB with 1ghz core clock are just around the corner, it looks nvidia with its huge chip will have really small lead, 5% ?
Damn why i havent bought 5850 just after it premiered :( .I said to myself "wait a month or two ,and after fermi introduction it will go down in price man..." DAMN YOU ATI!

Hardly ATIs fault the opposition has provided nothing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam_oslo

nVidia doesn't have to beat ATi with more than ~10-20% all over the line up to make a success out of Fermi. Don't forget that the 5870 with that hefting price tag (comperad to 5850), is only ~10-20% better than 5850.

If GTX 480 is ~10-20% better than 5870 then nVidia has a winner, for sure, even after 6 mounts. Unless ATi can release a new/refresh card to match/beat it at the launch time.

Lol what? When you're 6 months late with limited availability, and with the new heat and power rumors going around, I'd hardly call those numbers a winner for anyone but the most diehard fans. 6 months is an eternity for technology.
03-04-2010, 04:09 PM
zalbard

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam_oslo

If GTX 480 is ~10-20% better than 5870 then nVidia has a winner, for sure, even after 6 mounts. Unless ATi can release a new/refresh card to match/beat it at the launch time.

If 300W rumours are true then GTX480 will have to compete with 5970...
03-04-2010, 04:12 PM
annihilat0r

cut nvidia some slack, guys. if everything is to be believed a GTX 480 will

- have HD5870 performance
- will consume 300w
- will cost 700$

How many of you believe all this? Give them a break!
03-04-2010, 04:12 PM
Sam_oslo

Quote:

Originally Posted by zerazax

Hardly ATIs fault the opposition has provided nothing

Lol what? When you're 6 months late with limited availability, and with the new heat and power rumors going around, I'd hardly call those numbers a winner for anyone but the most diehard fans. 6 months is an eternity for technology.

I didn't say anything about heat or power usage, it is your words. I said: "nVidia doesn't have to beat ATi with more than ~10-20% all over the line up to make a success out of Fermi". What would 6 mounts have to say about this, in your opinion? should be 200% better and why?
03-04-2010, 04:22 PM
Sam_oslo

Quote:

Originally Posted by zalbard

If 300W rumours are true then GTX480 will have to compete with 5970...

I believe power usage can play a big role, but it will only make sense compared to the performance. The heat is not a biggy, it can be solved with a good cooler.
I'm a OCer, you know, and I can assure you, there is not such a thing as a hot component, there is only bad cooling solutions. But both remains to be seen yet, and maybe we get a cool and power effective Fermi too?

EDIT:
Oops soowy double post, it was meant to be an edit to the last one.
03-04-2010, 04:22 PM
RaV[666]

Quote:

I didn't say anything about heat or power usage, it is your words. I said: "nVidia doesn't have to beat ATi with more than ~10-20% all over the line up to make a success out of Fermi"

The problem is that it looks like it will be 20% better AT MOST.So depending on the game/benchmark/settings it will be like 0-20%.
Now take into consideration 5870 2gb OC ,then youre looking at MAYBE 10% AT MOST.Thats ugly for a product that probably will have power consumption more comparable with a 5970 ... .
It seems charlie was right with the INTENDED clocks of 750 too, with that clocks this card would be just about right.
Any solid info on price of 470 ?Maybe it will be more sensible offering, nvidia should have loads of not fully functional fermi cores ;-)
03-04-2010, 04:23 PM
zerazax

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam_oslo

I didn't say anything about heat or power usage, it is your words. I said: "nVidia doesn't have to beat ATi with more than ~10-20% all over the line up to make a success out of Fermi". What would 6 mounts have to say about this, in your opinion? should be 200% better and why?

Success? Based on what? Pure performance?

If I made a GPU that netted me a $15 profit while drawing 400w and heats up my coffee everyday, but is 20-30% faster than the 5970, but was half a year late and is in extremely limited numbers, is that a success? Okay that was an extreme example but my point is: You can't look at performance numbers in a vacuum and call the card a success.

Not to mention that if new rumors are true and the 480 is indeed 480sps instead of a full 512, then that's a failure to meet your own set requirements.

Furthermore, if the power/tdp numbers are true, it's going up against 5970s (don't bother rehashing 2v1 gpus, we are talking price and power figures since those are objective categorization points)

"Just" 10-20% (overall, which remains to be seen) after 6 months is dissapointing. It's not a flop like R600 (where it was slower) or NV30, but consider that GT200 vs RV770 had similar performance deltas but GT200 was almost a month earlier.
03-04-2010, 04:40 PM
thatdude90210

The latest PC perspective podcast (~48min mark), Ryan Shrout says "the manufacturability of these chips is pathetic," and the yield is about 10-20% at best.
03-04-2010, 04:46 PM
Sam_oslo

Quote:

Originally Posted by zerazax

Success? Based on what? Pure performance?

If I made a GPU that netted me a $15 profit while drawing 400w and heats up my coffee everyday, but is 20-30% faster than the 5970, but was half a year late and is in extremely limited numbers, is that a success? Okay that was an extreme example but my point is: You can't look at performance numbers in a vacuum and call the card a success.

Not to mention that if new rumors are true and the 480 is indeed 480sps instead of a full 512, then that's a failure to meet your own set requirements.

Furthermore, if the power/tdp numbers are true, it's going up against 5970s (don't bother rehashing 2v1 gpus, we are talking price and power figures since those are objective categorization points)

"Just" 10-20% (overall, which remains to be seen) after 6 months is dissapointing. It's not a flop like R600 (where it was slower) or NV30, but consider that GT200 vs RV770 had similar performance deltas but GT200 was almost a month earlier.

You are repeating many rumors that nobody knows if they are true or not, yet.

You say 20% is disappointing after 6 months, but 20% lead would be the best business scenario for nVidia and make many people (with sans for high-end GPU) happy too.
You are avoiding to tel if it should be 200% better or what to satisfy you? and what those 6 mounts got to do with performance crown of the best performing GPU av the time?
03-04-2010, 04:53 PM
Solus Corvus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yvese

But we already know its performance so there's no need to wait. We know Fermi does Tessellation well. The guy in the video even says it's what sets them apart from the competition. This is exactly what Charlie said. He also said the GTX480 is only 0-5% faster than the 5870. He's been right for months now, so I'm going by his word.

Like I said, there's no reason to buy this card unless you're a die-hard Nvidia fan or use GPGPU apps.

I'm not some knee-jerk Charlie hater like some of the people around here. I realize that he sometimes gets thing right and sometimes wrong. But I'm not just going to take his word on it. Doing so would be foolish, imo. We don't know about any of the test details of the numbers Charlie gave, even if they are right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam_oslo

nVidia doesn't have to beat ATi with more than ~10-20% all over the line up to make a success out of Fermi. Don't forget that the 5870 with that hefting price tag (comperad to 5850), is only ~10-20% better than 5850.

If GTX 480 is ~10-20% better than 5870 then nVidia has a winner, for sure, even after 6 mounts. Unless ATi can release a new/refresh card to match/beat it at the launch time.

If it's only 10-20% faster then Nvidia is in trouble. That's well within reach of the 1Ghz 5870 cards that are being released and will probably be available in volume before Fermi is even released.

It's not like last gen where 4890 was released much later and still couldn't match a 285. Instead you'd have a situation where the top single GPU NV card is matched in performance by something that came out before it did. That would be much worse then last gen for NV.

And that's just talking partner OCed 5870s that we already know are coming out. ATI could start binning or do a respin and introduce even faster 5890s.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaV[666]

The problem is that it looks like it will be 20% better AT MOST.So depending on the game/benchmark/settings it will be like 0-20%.

In Unigine there appear to be sequences where the 480 is ~60% faster then a 5870. That is a very significant lead. But Unigine Heaven is a highly contrived scenario with lots of tessellation and not much shaders. Performance in more tess/shader balanced scenarios remains to be seen, not to mention realistic AA/AF settings.
03-04-2010, 04:57 PM
Sam_oslo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solus Corvus

..

If it's only 10-20% faster then Nvidia is in trouble. That's well within reach of the 1Ghz 5870 cards that are being released and will probably be available in volume before Fermi is even released.

It's not like last gen where 4890 was released much later and still couldn't match a 285. Instead you'd have a situation where the top single GPU NV card is matched in performance by something that came out before it did. That would be much worse then last gen for NV.

And that's just talking partner OCed 5870s that we already know are coming out. ATI could start binning or do a respin and introduce even faster 5890s.

....

I have already said it in 2 posts back:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam_oslo

..
If GTX 480 is ~10-20% better than 5870 then nVidia has a winner, for sure, even after 6 mounts. Unless ATi can release a new/refresh card to match/beat it at the launch time.
03-04-2010, 04:58 PM
RaV[666]

Taking into consideration that it has 40% more transistors than cypress, and also has wider (more expensive) memory bus.
How can you call that "Best business scenario" ?
I bet better business scenario for nvidia would be 40% better performance for 50% more cash and wide availability about 6 months ago.

edit:

Quote:

In Unigine there appear to be sequences where the 480 is ~60% faster then a 5870. That is a very significant lead. But Unigine Heaven is a highly contrived scenario with lots of tessellation and not much shaders. Performance in more tess/shader balanced scenarios remains to be seen, not to mention realistic AA/AF settings.

In the same slide you see not only spikes downard but also being on par with fermi, so in this benchmark end result wont be 60%.Nitpicking best case benchmark and even best case scenario IN the said benchmark isnt really fair isnt it ?
03-04-2010, 05:07 PM
Sam_oslo

mVidia and ATi both has been asking for your short for just 10-20% performance increase all the time. You can't afford a 40% increase for Fermi, unless it becomes a really bad business for nVidia. The same would be the case for ATi in it's turn too.
03-04-2010, 05:16 PM
Solus Corvus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam_oslo

I have already said it in 2 posts back:

ATI doesn't have to do anything. ATI board partners have already announced 1GHz cards. We have even seen more of them then we have seen real Fermi cards so far.

If fermi is only 20% faster then a regular 5870 then it's going to be matched by cards we already know exist. There is no question of "IF ATI does X" because that isn't necessary, that would just be rubbing salt in the wounds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaV[666]

In the same slide you see not only spikes downard but also being on par with fermi, so in this benchmark end result wont be 60%.Nitpicking best case benchmark and even best case scenario IN the said benchmark isnt really fair isnt it ?

No, it's not really fair. I'd like to point out that in the non-dragon sections of Unigine a stock 5870 seems to match a 480 - so Charlie may in fact be correct that a 480 is roughly equal to a 5870 in most games.

I just pointed out the 60% figure to show that you aren't technically correct about 20% being the max and that there will always corner cases for the fanboys to haggle over.
03-04-2010, 05:24 PM
Sam_oslo

Lets hope you are right. That would be the best scenario for us frequent consumers av GPU. If those 1GHZ 5870 gets ready and can match/beat 480 at launch, then we are looking at the era of $499 for the top tog.

Good and cheap GPU from both ATi and GPU would be flying everywhere then.
03-04-2010, 05:30 PM
Solus Corvus

If Nvidia's top card only matches a 5870 then I don't see many price reductions for 5970 coming.
03-04-2010, 05:31 PM
zerazax

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam_oslo

You are repeating many rumors that nobody knows if they are true or not, yet.

You say 20% is disappointing after 6 months, but 20% lead would be the best business scenario for nVidia and make many people (with sans for high-end GPU) happy too.
You are avoiding to tel if it should be 200% better or what to satisfy you? and what those 6 mounts got to do with performance crown of the best performing GPU av the time?

And yet somehow you can declare it a success going off rumors?:rolleyes:

25%+ in real world gaming IMO. At nearly 7 months out, we'd be talking about refresh performance, not baseline
03-04-2010, 05:33 PM
zerazax

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solus Corvus

If Nvidia's top card only matches a 5870 then I don't see many price reductions for 5970 coming.

Sadly we won't see any for the 5800s either in that case
03-04-2010, 05:39 PM
Sam_oslo

The current 5870 + ~10-20% would cover almost all current games, unless you are using multi-monitor, or some rare demanding games.

Most of us won't need a double-GPU in this round, but yes, in case 5970 would keep it's price until the double-Fermi arrives and beats it. Unless ATi would dare to pushes that over 900MHz then :p:.
03-04-2010, 05:40 PM
Piotrsama

Quote:

Originally Posted by thatdude90210

The latest PC perspective podcast (~48min mark), Ryan Shrout says "the manufacturability of these chips is pathetic," and the yield is about 10-20% at best.

Somebody should really tell the guys at PcPer to use a video tech that allows to skip to the middle of the video without having to wait for it to buffer those 40+ minutes :D
Or it's my PC?
03-04-2010, 05:59 PM
LesGrossman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam_oslo

You say 20% is disappointing after 6 months, but 20% lead would be the best business scenario for nVidia and make many people (with sans for high-end GPU) happy too.

Going from the rumors, but i'm sorry what lead? There's a thing called 5970. why are you comparing GTX480 with a chip that is almost half the size and have almost half the TDP?
Sucess for nVidia? Right!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam_oslo

Most of us won't need a double-GPU in this round

Off course not! Nvidia can't do it anytime soon why would nvidia fanboys need it :ROTF:
03-04-2010, 06:06 PM
Macadamia

Hah, nVidia using Heaven 1.1 (30% more performance in culling, aka Dragon parts of the benchmarks) while ATI uses Heaven 1.0!

It's like Nehalem and Cinebench R10 "R11" dll swap all over again!
03-04-2010, 06:15 PM
***Deimos***

Quote:

Originally Posted by Behemot

As long as AMD uses digital VRM's, what is totaly different game, you just cannot compare it with NVIDIA's VRM.

This only confirms Fermi is really badly made and needs very clear voltage. More capacity is always better, but vendors tend to save costs. They will probably use less caps in order to save few bucks thus I expect (together with rumoured Fermi leakage etc.) very bad OC. At least compared to AMD's clocks targeting 1 GHz.

True that.

AMD HD48xx PCB is so clean and elegant
Likewise HD5870 - although 5970 supposedly have big VRM heat issue :(

It never ceases to amaze me how far behind nVidia is in terms of PCB design - I find AMD boards simpler and more compact, and with digital VRM, better software control of current/voltage/heat for improved reliability.

At first glance whats the difference how 12V->1.05V. Why not just stepdown buck converter (popular for decades)? this is why
idle/2D__power__cloks
G200's: 60-70W. 300Mhz
4870: 50W. 520Mhz
5870: 20-25W. Clocks drop to 157Mhz! (fast response switch dozens times/sec)
FYI 9600GT is around 30W

Sadly, it is 99.99% likely Fermi will have higher idle power than 5870, and even maybe higher than GT200 (recall the TSMC transistor channel varience power losses)

================================================== ======

about Fermi perfromance - doesn't matter how much faster/slower in 95% of games or anything below 19x12. GF8 is good enough for that.
What matters is very high rez, and very demanding shaders. And with 384 x GDDR5, no bandwidth issue excuse!!

Using Crysis VH 25x16 0AA as "definative" measure for demanding situation:

Code:

HD4870 1GB 13 GTX285 1GB 15 HD5850 1GB 18 HD5870 1GB 22 GTX295 1.8GB 24 HD5970 2GB 28

Also note, HD5870 >> GTX285, but SLI/CF for both about same at 30fps.
30fps on 5870 SLI might be insufficient memory, bandwidth or driver optimization limitation.
Fermi has more SP than GTX295, so it would be big surprise if not faster than HD5870. Hoping for ~30fps.
03-04-2010, 06:21 PM
thatdude90210

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piotrsama

Somebody should really tell the guys at PcPer to use a video tech that allows to skip to the middle of the video without having to wait for it to buffer those 40+ minutes :D
Or it's my PC?

Their player is wacky, at least on Firefox for me. Only way to move around is to just download the mp3.
03-04-2010, 06:22 PM
Chumbucket843

it will probably have better idle power than gt200. just because peak power increases doesnt mean idle power will. gtx280 @ 230 watts tdp has better idle power than 8800gtx @ 150watts.

you might want to read the article you linked.:p:

Quote:

We’ve seen Windows Vista-based results that show Nvidia’s GeForce GTX 285 and GTX 260 Core 216 using 20W or so less than ATI’s Radeon HD 4870 1GB. However, in these Windows 7 tests, the Nvidia cards seem to be using as much as 15W more than the older ATI cards.

driver issues. its fixable.
03-04-2010, 06:25 PM
-Sweeper_

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajaidev

When tessellation will only have a ON and OFF option and the ON option will enable heavy tessellation that only Nvidia h/w can handle and ATi's 5870 may have a difficult time handling heavy tessellation.

What Nvidia will have is a legit excuse of why the games perform better on Nvidia hardware than ATi one. Just like Nvidia Physx was the keyword for 2009, tessellation may as well be a keyword for Nvidia for 2010 !!

i smell they are already doing that in metro 2033
03-04-2010, 08:00 PM
Jowy Atreides

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajaidev

When tessellation will only have a ON and OFF option and the ON option will enable heavy tessellation that only Nvidia h/w can handle and ATi's 5870 may have a difficult time handling heavy tessellation.

What Nvidia will have is a legit excuse of why the games perform better on Nvidia hardware than ATi one. Just like Nvidia Physx was the keyword for 2009, tessellation may as well be a keyword for Nvidia for 2010 !!

If things are as perceived, ATI will have a legit excuse in AA performance.

Fermi shows pretty shocking AA numbers in leaks.
03-04-2010, 08:10 PM
Macadamia

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Sweeper_

i smell they are already doing that in metro 2033

I thought Metro's DX11 was added with Radeons...

Most devs publishing DX11 titles by now have a GTX 400 (repi of DICE was tweeting about it I think) but for Metro I don't think they had time to f*** up the polygonal models that much. Plus, it's probably just using DX11 compute shaders (cough CUDA cough) to speed up post-processing again.
03-04-2010, 08:58 PM
ElSel10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macadamia

I thought Metro's DX11 was added with Radeons...

Most devs publishing DX11 titles by now have a GTX 400 (repi of DICE was tweeting about it I think) but for Metro I don't think they had time to f*** up the polygonal models that much. Plus, it's probably just using DX11 compute shaders (cough CUDA cough) to speed up post-processing again.

Metro 2033 is TWIMTBP
03-04-2010, 09:31 PM
kgtiger

I should point out that I really know nothing about this subject.
Just what I have picked up from reading 2/3s of the first fermi thread and all of this one. :rolleyes:

While ATI was the first to market with a Dx11 cards by used their old architecture and just adapted Dx11 to it and since fermis new architecture seams to do really well at tessellation.

Will ATI now need to build a new architecture also from the ground up to handle the tessellation more effectively?
Or will ATI be able to hold off building a new architecture from scratch for another generation or two and still get the same tessellation performance that nVidia are getting now.
Or can ATI keep the architecture they have and just keep re-working it?

Another thing I noticed is, if most games are playable at the frame rate that they now have and in the past the best cards have always been judged and rated by how many FPS they could do.
Would it now be fair to say the way cards are now rated might need to change?
If most games don’t need more FPS to improve the smoothness of the game play and tessellation only improves the detail of the actual graphics.
Then maybe we should look at other ways to judge the performance of the new Dx11 cards and take the quality of the graphics into account as well not just the FPS?

With that in mind, from the outside looking in, nVidia does seemed to understand this point some what and as a result have moved there focus to the quality of the graphics more that just the FPS aspect of gaming.
After all is that not what tessellation is all about, improving the graphics quality?
Like the demo with the dragon with tessellation on and the big difference it had with out it, also like the water effect in Just Cause 2.
With my limited experience in gaming to me water has always sucked but that Just Cause 2 demo looked really good.

One other thing, is tessellation the main point of going from Dx10 to Dx11?

Any insight to these question would be much appreciated. :up:
03-04-2010, 10:13 PM
Funky

Quote:

Originally Posted by kgtiger

I should point out that I really know nothing about this subject.
Just what I have picked up from reading 2/3s of the first fermi thread and all of this one. :rolleyes:

While ATI was the first to market with a Dx11 cards by used their old architecture and just adapted Dx11 to it and since fermis new architecture seams to do really well at tessellation.

Will ATI now need to build a new architecture also from the ground up to handle the tessellation more effectively?
Or will ATI be able to hold off building a new architecture from scratch for another generation or two and still get the same tessellation performance that nVidia are getting now.
Or can ATI keep the architecture they have and just keep re-working it?

Another thing I noticed is, if most games are playable at the frame rate that they now have and in the past the best cards have always been judged and rated by how many FPS they could do.
Would it now be fair to say the way cards are now rated might need to change?
If most games don’t need more FPS to improve the smoothness of the game play and tessellation only improves the detail of the actual graphics.
Then maybe we should look at other ways to judge the performance of the new Dx11 cards and take the quality of the graphics into account as well not just the FPS?

With that in mind, from the outside looking in, nVidia does seemed to understand this point some what and as a result have moved there focus to the quality of the graphics more that just the FPS aspect of gaming.
After all is that not what tessellation is all about, improving the graphics quality?
Like the demo with the dragon with tessellation on and the big difference it had with out it, also like the water effect in Just Cause 2.
With my limited experience in gaming to me water has always sucked but that Just Cause 2 demo looked really good.

One other thing, is tessellation the main point of going from Dx10 to Dx11?

Any insight to these question would be much appreciated. :up:

ATI is doing what market dictates.
They come out with the required hardware when there is real need for it or it is anticipated in near future.
Look what happened to all the hype of Double precision floating point processing. Nvidia made a big deal out of it. But to the gamers it made little difference. Even today it makes little difference to gamers. But now even ATI have a card with good DP performance.
They took similar approach with tessellation. Right now they have an architecture which they were able to release on time, cheaply and with right balance according to how they view the current and near future market.
They will have new architecture ready when there will be need of it if you look at their track record over last 1/2 years.
03-04-2010, 11:13 PM
Xoulz

Quote:

Originally Posted by kgtiger

I should point out that I really know nothing about this subject.
Just what I have picked up from reading 2/3s of the first fermi thread and all of this one. :rolleyes:

While ATI was the first to market with a Dx11 cards by used their old architecture and just adapted Dx11 to it and since fermis new architecture seams to do really well at tessellation.

Will ATI now need to build a new architecture also from the ground up to handle the tessellation more effectively?
Or will ATI be able to hold off building a new architecture from scratch for another generation or two and still get the same tessellation performance that nVidia are getting now.
Or can ATI keep the architecture they have and just keep re-working it?

Another thing I noticed is, if most games are playable at the frame rate that they now have and in the past the best cards have always been judged and rated by how many FPS they could do.
Would it now be fair to say the way cards are now rated might need to change?
If most games don’t need more FPS to improve the smoothness of the game play and tessellation only improves the detail of the actual graphics.
Then maybe we should look at other ways to judge the performance of the new Dx11 cards and take the quality of the graphics into account as well not just the FPS?

With that in mind, from the outside looking in, nVidia does seemed to understand this point some what and as a result have moved there focus to the quality of the graphics more that just the FPS aspect of gaming.
After all is that not what tessellation is all about, improving the graphics quality?
Like the demo with the dragon with tessellation on and the big difference it had with out it, also like the water effect in Just Cause 2.
With my limited experience in gaming to me water has always sucked but that Just Cause 2 demo looked really good.

One other thing, is tessellation the main point of going from Dx10 to Dx11?

Any insight to these question would be much appreciated. :up:

?
ATi's architecture was more advanced. Their use of dx10.1 and prior use of tessellation, etc... meant they had little problems fitting it into their already advanced arch.

Nvidia required a whole new approach. Thus is it taking much longer.
03-05-2010, 12:18 AM
Teemax

If tessellation is the only thing that Fermi excels in, then the architecture is a failure.
A balanced architecture is what we need, not something that require everyone else to change their development model.

You can spot the NVIDIA fanboys (in disguised or not) pretty easily: just a moment ago they were screaming "DX11 doesn't matter"!
Now, the new mantra is "tessellation is THE WAY".

Make up your mind guys :)
03-05-2010, 12:41 AM
kemo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xoulz

?
ATi's architecture was more advanced. Their use of dx10.1 and prior use of tessellation, etc... meant they had little problems fitting it into their already advanced arch.

Nvidia required a whole new approach. Thus is it taking much longer.

Really !!!! , more advanced because it had DX10.1 , last time i checked Nvidia had no problem adding 10.1 support to low end parts using the same very old architecture that you are calling less advanced because it didn't support 10.1 , and you are making it sound like Fermi is made for Tessellation ...
03-05-2010, 12:42 AM
n!Cola

GTX 480 Unigine and 3D Vision Surround Demo :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpdPSZB8A8E
03-05-2010, 12:50 AM
takamishanoku

Quote:

Originally Posted by n!Cola

GTX 480 Unigine and 3D Vision Surround Demo :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpdPSZB8A8E

Finally getting some info.
03-05-2010, 01:03 AM
Behemot

Quote:

Originally Posted by kemo

Really !!!! , more advanced because it had DX10.1 , last time i checked Nvidia had no problem adding 10.1 support to low end parts using the same very old architecture that you are calling less advanced because it didn't support 10.1 , and you are making it sound like Fermi is made for Tessellation ...

The DX 10.1, which NVIDIA was bashing all the time as useless etc. and implemented it after the long years, just in the right time because no Fermi to buy for next half a year (meant at times when the cards were released)?

As for new arch, AMD is working on really new architecture right now. It's supposed to come out end of the year/beginning of 2011. I see only tick-tock schedule from AMD, no 6 months delay. So who actually has problems running out more advanced technologies?:shrug:
03-05-2010, 01:07 AM
damha

Quote:

Originally Posted by kemo

Really !!!! , more advanced because it had DX10.1 , last time i checked Nvidia had no problem adding 10.1 support to low end parts using the same very old architecture that you are calling less advanced because it didn't support 10.1 , and you are making it sound like Fermi is made for Tessellation ...

Actually what he is saying is correct.

When multipurpose DX10 shaders were discussed in whitepapers ATI already had this tech in their cards. Even as far back as the x1900, the gpu was designed with dx10 in mind. All it needed was a few enhancements and it was fully dx10 capable when dx10 launched.

With the HD 2900, ATI already had DX10.1 standards implemented at the hardware level. Meaning, again, hardware was capable, ready for the api to be released. Nvidia was too busy calling it useless.

Guess what happened with DX11? Exact same thing. ATI's hardware team has been one step ahead of the game since the first DX10 whitepapers were surfacing. Nvidia on the other hand was too busy milking their architecture. The engineers were given clear instructions: more, more, more. More of the same. Who was smarter? Hard to say, but nvidia was the one making the money.

Nvidia got DX10.1 working, but look how long it took. When Microsoft said DX10.1 is here, ATI said here are the cards. When DX11 rolled around ATI said here are the cards.

ATI's long term planning has hopefully paid off. They invested time in making the current gen support upcoming standards from the ground up. It has cost them dearly because research costs were higher and beefing performance was going to exceed the budget.

Referring to nvidia as a giant is truly the best way to describe them. Slow in moving forward, strong and powerful, but not very intelligent.
03-05-2010, 01:12 AM
zalbard

Quote:

Originally Posted by SKYMTL

Current ATI cards get castrated when tessellation is enabled.

Quite a strong statement considering the fact that the very top offer from Nvidia isn't even 2 times faster than a cheaper 5870 (not to mention 5970 which is on par with (or better than) GTX480 in Haven and a much slower GTX470) in the over-the-top tessellation environment of Haven, not to mention some people speculating about GTX480 scoring much closer to 5870 with high IQ settings...
You are not being totally rational here.
03-05-2010, 01:25 AM
Behemot

Did we see some real game performance with tessellation or are we talking only about some tech demo/benchmark showed by NVIDIA and of course with settings hurting the competition? This is actually NVIDIA's PR, you know? NVIDIA's PR is what brought the company to where it is now.
03-05-2010, 01:30 AM
BenchZowner

Quote:

Originally Posted by Behemot

Did we see some real game performance with tessellation or are we talking only about some tech demo/benchmark showed by NVIDIA and of course with settings hurting the competition? This is actually NVIDIA's PR, you know? NVIDIA's PR is what brought the company to where it is now.

Guess we should also thank their PR dpt for the G80 ( 8800GTX ) :rofl:
Bloody bastard$ fooled us and convinced us that it was the best and a great product :(
03-05-2010, 01:38 AM
LinkinParkBoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by n!Cola

GTX 480 Unigine and 3D Vision Surround Demo :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpdPSZB8A8E

AF 1x | AA 0x

Fail? :shrug:
03-05-2010, 01:41 AM
Migi06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macadamia

Hah, nVidia using Heaven 1.1 (30% more performance in culling, aka Dragon parts of the benchmarks) while ATI uses Heaven 1.0!

It's like Nehalem and Cinebench R10 "R11" dll swap all over again!

Nvidia real demo run vs Nvidia PR slide (Hint. Check 60-120 sec):
http://plaza.fi/s/f/editor/images/20100305heaven.jpg http://plaza.fi/s/f/editor/images/X-...4384714655.jpg
03-05-2010, 01:42 AM
Behemot

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenchZowner

Bloody bastard$ fooled us and convinced us that it was the best and a great product :(

How said this is true on most cards which came after G80 :rolleyes: I do not infirm the G80, but what came next...all the bashing, PhysX (pure PR, but how many less-informed people they convinced to buy), Assassin's Creed (you better forgot don't you?), all their HW it's still old G80, just lil tweaked and renamed :down: Renaming is probably the worst thing they did. I once met one NVIDIA PR guy during Invex and that made my real picture about the company. What a servility!:shakes:
03-05-2010, 01:55 AM
LordEC911

Quote:

Originally Posted by kgtiger

Will ATI now need to build a new architecture also from the ground up to handle the tessellation more effectively?
Or will ATI be able to hold off building a new architecture from scratch for another generation or two and still get the same tessellation performance that nVidia are getting now.
Or can ATI keep the architecture they have and just keep re-working it?

For some reasons, GTX480 can be compared to 5970, I'm not stating it should be in all cases. In those cases the tessellation advantage that GTX480 holds over the 5870 should be drastically reduced, if there is even one at all.

As was already stated, AMD/ATi has, most likely, implemented the needed changes to their future architecture which we should see before the end of 1H '11. The main change needed is with the geometry, they need to be able to handle at least 2tris/clock.

As for the dual GF100, just like G200, it will need a shrink to happen unless Nvidia and TSMC have some magic pixie dust to use on the Bx silicon.
03-05-2010, 01:56 AM
Chickenfeed

No one buys a high end gpu to not run AA. Sure its a benchmark but the fact they chose to put out this info is rather bad. It doesn't show confidence in their product. The way I see it is if there wasnt anything to hide, theyd have done a real world comparision.

I have a feeling Nvidia are going to rely on their PR marketing strength with PhysX, 3D Vision and their developer relations to upplay these cards. In otherwords they may not have anything to show other than their own IPs in which case.... :shrug: I suppose if you enjoy those things then all the power to you but the average user just won't ( 3D Vision requires an SLI setup in most cases to be playable, doubt that has changed with GF100, making it an expensive thing, not to mention the glasses and 120HZ lcd ; aka not remotely mainstream aka an extreme luxury ) If PhysX were more interesting and didn't have such a performance hit mabey people would be more interested ( eg Nvidia pimp throwing in a 2nd gpu for PhysX... and for good reason it seems, it could just be a conspiracy to deplete excess G92 stock...hmmm)

I just hope things don't turn out as gloom as they appear to be so far. For innovation and competition sake, they better not suck.
03-05-2010, 02:20 AM
Sly Fox

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chickenfeed

No one buys a high end gpu to not run AA. Sure its a benchmark but the fact they chose to put out this info is rather bad. It doesn't show confidence in their product. The way I see it is if there wasnt anything to hide, theyd have done a real world comparision.

I have a feeling Nvidia are going to rely on their PR marketing strength with PhysX, 3D Vision and their developer relations to upplay these cards. In otherwords they may not have anything to show other than their own IPs in which case.... :shrug: I suppose if you enjoy those things then all the power to you but the average user just won't ( 3D Vision requires an SLI setup in most cases to be playable, doubt that has changed with GF100, making it an expensive thing, not to mention the glasses and 120HZ lcd ; aka not remotely mainstream aka an extreme luxury ) If PhysX were more interesting and didn't have such a performance hit mabey people would be more interested ( eg Nvidia pimp throwing in a 2nd gpu for PhysX... and for good reason it seems, it could just be a conspiracy to deplete excess G92 stock...hmmm)

I just hope things don't turn out as gloom as they appear to be so far. For innovation and competition sake, they better not suck.

I feel much the same way man.

Don't get me wrong, I want Nvidia to have a killer card (for the same reasons you mention in your last sentence). Been waiting for one for some time now. But every day it just seems less and less likely.
03-05-2010, 02:20 AM
Teemax

Quote:

Originally Posted by zalbard

Quite a strong statement considering the fact that the very top offer from Nvidia isn't even 2 times faster than a cheaper 5870 (not to mention a much slower GTX470) in the over-the-top tessellation environment of Haven, not to mention some peope speculating about GTX480 dcoring much closer to 5870 with high IQ settings...
You are not being totally rational here.

Agreed that it's such an aggressive statement, coming from a respected reviewer.

Unless it's back with facts, forgive me if I take the statement with a LOT of salt. Somehow, SKYMTL has turned into an NVIDIA's ambassador in this forum. Weird.
03-05-2010, 02:24 AM
BenchZowner

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teemax

Agreed that it's such an aggressive statement, coming from a respected reviewer.

Unless it's back with facts, forgive me if I take the statement with a LOT of salt. Somehow, SKYMTL has turned into an NVIDIA's ambassador in this forum. Weird.

I heard nVIDIA gave him 20k$.

And you've been here for how long to know SKYMTL well ? :shrug:
03-05-2010, 02:43 AM
RaV[666]

From my simple understanding of the tesselation, it seems it could be "tweakable" just like AA or aniso settings are, you could have 2x more polys/4x more polys and etc.It would be a smart move for ati to implement such override in drivers.I wonder if thats possible.
03-05-2010, 02:53 AM
Tim

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teemax

Agreed that it's such an aggressive statement, coming from a respected reviewer.

Unless it's back with facts, forgive me if I take the statement with a LOT of salt. Somehow, SKYMTL has turned into an NVIDIA's ambassador in this forum. Weird.

He doesn't do nVidia bashing like half the users here, and uses the round thing that is on his shoulders. That's the difference.
03-05-2010, 02:54 AM
Teemax

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenchZowner

And you've been here for how long to know SKYMTL well ? :shrug:

I haven't registered in this forum for a long time, yet, I'm a regular reader of HardwareCanucks. I like the depth of their investigations and the often unbiased, logical arguments for their conclusions.

However, SKYMTL's tone sounds a bit odd for an supposedly neutral reviewer. Claiming that Evergreen has "castrated tessellation performance" is a HUGE claim, he should at least back it up with some evidence.
03-05-2010, 03:22 AM
Sam_oslo

Tessellation is one the few and most important new futures introduced by DX11. There is so much new here and it needs an open mind to investigate and understand it without getting offensive toward others ideas ans meanings.

Apparently, nVidia is using a different implementation of tessellation and it can affects both the picture details/quality and the performance. It is important to know the real differences based on a contractive discussion .
03-05-2010, 03:23 AM
Piotrsama

Quote:

Originally Posted by Migi06

Nvidia real demo run vs Nvidia PR slide (Hint. Check 60-120 sec):

Good stuff there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordEC911

As for the dual GF100, just like G200, it will need a shrink to happen unless Nvidia and TSMC have some magic pixie dust to use on the Bx silicon.

Or maybe they can release some limited Mars (or something), where they jump the PCI-E power limit and use 500W+ on stock for the dual gpu part.
03-05-2010, 03:26 AM
Motiv

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenchZowner

I heard nVIDIA gave him 20k$.

And you've been here for how long to know SKYMTL well ? :shrug:

He went right down in a lot of peoples estimations, when he did that very biased review of Nvidias 'big bang' drivers.

Everyone could see the reviewers were told the apps they had to run, as 90% of the website rand the 4 same apps, yet he was on here arguing it was all fair and above board.

That's why a lot of people lost respect for him and the canucks website that day.
03-05-2010, 03:28 AM
jaredpace

Yeah, he's biased towards Nvidia. Who cares. Enough people hate or bash on them (like me) to even things out in the end. :D
03-05-2010, 03:30 AM
Motiv

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam_oslo

Tessellation is one the few and most important new futures introduced by DX11. There is so much new here and it needs an open mind to investigate and understand it without getting offensive toward others ideas ans meanings.

Apparently, nVidia is using a different implementation of tessellation and it can affects both the picture details/quality and the performance. It is important to know the real differences based on a contractive discussion .

Very true, I expect the G4xx products based on fermie to be monsters at tessellation, physics and any other math intensive part of the DX world. The GPU has been built from the ground up to be incredible at these things.

What it look like it may fall down on, is the standard DX9/10/11 feature set and thus need 'gimmicks' to get people to choose it, in the absence of many DX11 games.

Will be interesting to see ATIs response to the tessellation question in their refresh this year. With more games exploiting DX11, they may need to improve it before next year.
03-05-2010, 04:21 AM
LinkinParkBoy

Even i (who am a non-fan nVidia supporter for long although i always keep an ATI card) am starting to doubt the capacity of the 480 versus ATI right now. If it weren't for ATI's real bad CCC i would have probably purchased a 5970 by now. Meh, hurry up with the numbers already, it's becoming boring.
03-05-2010, 04:39 AM
RaZz!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Migi06

Nvidia real demo run vs Nvidia PR slide (Hint. Check 60-120 sec):
*snip*

there's nothing wrong with the PR slide tbh. they clearly state on the slide that it's the "dragon, cobblestone road sequence", which is the sequence from 60-120secs on the demo graph. they picked a tessellation heavy sequence to show fermi's advantage in such scenarios. fair enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Motiv

Very true, I expect the G4xx products based on fermie to be monsters at tessellation, physics and any other math intensive part of the DX world. The GPU has been built from the ground up to be incredible at these things.

What it look like it may fall down on, is the standard DX9/10/11 feature set and thus need 'gimmicks' to get people to choose it, in the absence of many DX11 games.

Will be interesting to see ATIs response to the tessellation question in their refresh this year. With more games exploiting DX11, they may need to improve it before next year.

true, however, even if fermi lacks some raw performance in standard dx9/10/11, future games will all make use of tessellation, where fermi can compensate the lack of raw performance with more tessellation performance (atleast that's what one would expect if the performance rumors are true).

i really hope the gtx480 provides more performance than just a 5% increase over a 5870 though. a 5% increase could easily be surpassed by a high clocked 5890 or smth. all i want is the prices to go down :p:
03-05-2010, 04:43 AM
saaya

Quote:

Originally Posted by mindfury

GTX470:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...52535f9b0a.jpg
Vantage P16600
crysis,1920X1200 veryhigh+8x aa,24fps
crysis,1920X1200 veryhigh+No aa,53fps
Rumor from Chinese forum~
http://mylab.q.yesky.com/thread-121-1-1.html

lol, bad job at bluring the numbers, its obviously 625mhz core and 1250mhz shader clocks :)

have you guys seen this?
heise.de reported that perf of a 470 is between a 5850 and a 5870, closer to a 5870, but slower. and they mentioned 470 specs to be 448cores?
http://www.semiaccurate.com/2010/03/...ugh-thrashing/

oh and they messured the ihs to be 41mmx41mm...
and tweakers.net reported the initial run to be 5k cards only?
but is that 480s, or 470s or both?
http://www.semiaccurate.com/2010/03/...cret-location/

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordEC911

Anyone else notice the 8pin+8pin+6pin possibility on the GTX480 PCB?

no, where? you mean on the left of the power connectors? those holes are too small for a power connector, arent they?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ***Deimos***

EDIT: Why do both 470 and 480 require the big fan holes in PCB?

because nvidia hired some weird pcb/card layoutengineer a while back who thinks putting holes in cards is cool, literally :D
remember the dual gpu cards? they kept putting holes in them, even when people put tape over the holes and found out that they actually dont impact the temperatures at all they continued to do this :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by mindfury

Rumor from Chinese forum:
http://we.pcinlife.com/thread-1366899-1-1.html

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...r/d276985e.jpg
The Chinese name card is most likely GTX470,but I'm not sure.

so it sucks less than a 5870 at 1920x1080 with max details and 8aa... but is still unplayable... lol :D
seems like the 470 has only 448 cores and seems to have notably lower gddr5 clocks as well, making it fall behind the 295 by quite a bit...

i heard that nvidia had problems getting gddr5 clocks up, but that was quite a while ago and i thought they had solved that by now... :confused:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mao5

470's retail price is little cheaper than 5850,what do you think?

huh? how much do you claim it will cost then? cause so far the rumors were around 450us$ for the 470...

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkItZo

OMG, your sig made me laugh so hard that a bit of wee came out :eek::rofl:

eew! :S

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapel110

http://www.abload.de/img/nv-tesselation-benchma0m5f.jpg
new picture?!

2x faster between seconds xx and seconds xy, LOL :D
so what, do they expect reviews to create a custom unigine bench based on the part of the benchmark where gf100 does better than rv870?
thats just sad... if nvidia goes that far to somehow make gf100 look good, then wow... it sounds like it really sucks as bad as charlie wrote :/

http://kotaku.com/5484795/just-cause...oves-on-nvidia

Quote:

Originally Posted by tajoh111

If it something be advertised for NVIDIA and anything related to them. I.e Cuda and physX, fermi it should die. This would normally sound sarcastic but this is AMDz.....I mean xtremesystems.

The purpose of this thread was to contain the trolling around the forums and to reduce the amount of Fermi threads. But now all the fermi trolling is concentrated to make the so called "trolling party" and in addition, there seems to be anything related to AMD at all, to be posted in the news section. From every single 5970 being released(5970 black edition, 5970 sapphire edition, 5970 ares edition, 5970 haxxors edition) to AMD contests(MSI 58xx total prize value for three prizes 800 dollars), to someone posting something related to a currency which just happened to be AMD abbreviated, interviews with AMD people(catalyst maker x2), blogs, drivers and etc.

It just feels like an AMD forum, which normally isn't bad. But this forum already has an AMD section and most of this stuff could go in there or tech talk or extreme competition(which is also for contests). I started feeling sorry for Nvidia a long time ago with all the trolling against them. Sure they rename alot but they are not doing some terribly underhanded like what Intel did against AMD.

Anything like a negative rumor against NV seems to be posted instantly and its hard to not feel sorry for them. E.g things like charlie articles and somehow even positive like their recent financial results have even been trolled or them giving away a game.

NV could cure cancer and it would somehow be trolled.

maaaaybe, just maybe its because there havent really been any news about nvidia and their products? just mention a couple of good news that you think should have been posted in the news section on xs but nobody did?
and the news here are posted by anybody who wants to share some interesting knews he found somewhere... so what keeps you from posting news that you think havent been posted here yet and are interesting?

Quote:

Originally Posted by trinibwoy

Oh, then it must certainly be an irrelevant POS if it slipped under your radar.

i heard it was a fun game, but it really wasnt very popular... so chill out, lots of people dont know about it, that has nothing to do with the quality of the game at all... barely anybody knows about fear2 and it slipped under most peoples radars, mine included, but its an awesome game... why are you always so defensive when people mention something bad about some game?

Quote:

Originally Posted by trinibwoy

Yep, if there are open alternatives. Which there aren't. There are millions of CUDA capable card owners out there who will benefit from these additions who won't care much that it's proprietary.

opencl and compute shaders are not an alternative to cuda? why?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teemax

- Partners still don't have final design yet. They only know the dimensions and cooling design currently.

BTW, "launch" date is still March 26th (3 weeks), I hope.

hmmmm am i the only one who finds this a bit contradicting? :D
partners dont even have final cards yet, launch date is in 3 weeks... 0_o

Quote:

Originally Posted by overclocking101

whats with the pictuires with white outs and black outs that makes no sense whatsoever. remeber leaked HD5 series pics? were any of them whited out?? nope why the secrecy? maybe because this isnt what it will actually be? i just dont get it

leaks of 5k stuff was mostly ati approved or tolerated, nvidia is veeery serious about leaks, so people and companies are more careful, naturally...

Quote:

Originally Posted by SKYMTL

Just to clear things up about CUDA + Just Cause 2.

OpenCL and DX Compure Shaders are accelerated THROUGH the CUDA architecture standards. As such, the effects in Just Cause 2 will likely be accelerated on AMD hardware through their Stream architecture as well if they use OpenCL or Compute Shaders.

Everyone has to remember that CUDA is an all-encompassing term for the architecture that accelerates all types of APIs on NVIDIA GPUs (OpenCL, PhysX, folding, Compute Shaders, ray tracing, Adobe Photoshop GPU acceleration, Flash acceleration, etc., etc.). It is WAS proprietary but is now acting as a type of umbrella term for everything GPU accelerated. Much like Stream on AMD products.

cheers, thanks for the headsup! :toast:

Quote:

Originally Posted by eric66

uhmm that all you get folks :yepp: until further console upgrade of course sorry :p: 2900xt had awesome shader power also nearly was 2 3 times better than 8800gtx but no games used it so that made 2900xt be marked as flop same thing is gonna happen to gtx 480 imho

lol wutt? so by now, where games use more shader power the 2900xt should be 2-3 times as fast as a 8800gtx? :p:

Quote:

Originally Posted by annihilat0r

Say Nvidia prices the cards $200 lower than necessary to break even with production costs. What does it cost them at this stage (if the 5000 cards rumor is correct of course)? 1 million dollars. That's a lolzor amount for Nvidia.

true... but whats the point of this pr stunt if you cant meet demands... even if people love your product, if they cant buy it, they will forget about it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macadamia

Hah, nVidia using Heaven 1.1 (30% more performance in culling, aka Dragon parts of the benchmarks) while ATI uses Heaven 1.0!

It's like Nehalem and Cinebench R10 "R11" dll swap all over again!

so 1.1 will boost rv870 performance as well? are you sure?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teemax

Somehow, SKYMTL has turned into an NVIDIA's ambassador in this forum. Weird.

i dont think so, he sounds very obective to me :confused:

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenchZowner

I heard nVIDIA gave him 20k$.

20k$ worth in fermis? ie one card? heheheh :D

i think power consumption doesnt really matter, and performance doesnt matter all that much either... price performance is what matters now that we have mainstream cards that are powerful enough to build a highend gaming pc...
03-05-2010, 04:58 AM
Teemax

Some headups from Fudzilla, writen by Fuad himself:
http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/17952/1/

Quote:

If you have been waiting for Fermi, Geforce GTX 480 and GTX 470 and you really want to spend some 600€ / $600 for a high end graphics card, you better be ready to buy it on March 26th.

Despite the fact that Nvidia will have a massive volume launch with thousands of cards available in Europe and USA, they might easily sell out in matter of hours.

People close to Nvidia believe Fermi cards will sell like hot cakes and that there will be huge demand for them as soon as they launch. The reason is quite obvious a single GPU Geforce GTX 480 will end up faster than any Radeon HD 5870 card and in some new games, the advantage will be significant. In some games Radeon might end up faster or very close, but in the big picture Nvidia’s big chip is going to win.

Just be ready to order your card on the first day as they might sell out easily, or be ready to wait a week or two for a second batch.

So, it's launching with a "massive" some-thousand cards.
It's gonna be expensive (€600 for GTX 480!!)
It's faster than HD 5870, sort of.
03-05-2010, 05:20 AM
iTravis

This might be old but :D
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/1904/340x.png
03-05-2010, 05:23 AM
eric66

some new games = Dark Void :ROTF:
03-05-2010, 05:25 AM
eric66

Quote:

Originally Posted by iTravis

This might be old but :D
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/1904/340x.png

haha can be true though :yepp:
03-05-2010, 05:31 AM
BenchZowner

Absolutely... 28nm high end GPUs are right around the corner anyway :p:
03-05-2010, 05:49 AM
mindfury

http://www.semiaccurate.com/static/u.../fermi_nda.jpg

Obviously someone broke NDA...:cool:
03-05-2010, 06:06 AM
zerazax

Someones pissed off.. lol
03-05-2010, 06:09 AM
Jowy Atreides

Quote:

Originally Posted by iTravis

This might be old but :D
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/1904/340x.png

I have been told.

Any news on a 5 series refresh or 5890?
The cards have been out like 6 months, time for a spin with the 5 series.
03-05-2010, 06:17 AM
mindfury

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=148597

http://bbs.expreview.com/attachments...dfef0d34ea.jpg

http://bbs.expreview.com/attachments...be60baceff.jpg
03-05-2010, 06:27 AM
zalbard

^^ Talking about Radeons being terrible at tessellation. ;)
Looks good for 470 as well! It will be pretty attractive if priced well. :)
03-05-2010, 06:27 AM
eric66

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...r/d276985e.jpg

so those chinese results are true 470 sucks in games against 5870 if 2 fps is destroying 5870 :P by the way every blind person can see it is 470 somebody needs better paint skills lol
03-05-2010, 06:30 AM
blindbox

Quote:

Originally Posted by mindfury

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=148597
Big unigine pics snip

That's a GTX470, for sure. Now to figure out which 5800 series. Anyone with identical setup?

I sense 4870 vs gtx 260 all over again.
03-05-2010, 06:31 AM
mindfury

Quote:

Originally Posted by blindbox

That's a GTX470, for sure. Now to figure out which 5800 series. Anyone with identical setup?

I sense 4870 vs gtx 260 all over again.

It's a 5870.
03-05-2010, 06:34 AM
eric66

Quote:

Originally Posted by blindbox

That's a GTX470, for sure. Now to figure out which 5800 series. Anyone with identical setup?

I sense 4870 vs gtx 260 all over again.

check my post above in rael games including dx 11 game dirt 2 470 is behind unless games starts to push memory capacity where 5800 series with 1gb will suck for sure but until that moment 5870 is nearly 15 percent faster than 470 in real games that were benched
03-05-2010, 06:35 AM
blindbox

Quote:

Originally Posted by eric66

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...r/d276985e.jpg

so those chinese results are true 470 sucks in games against 5870 if 2 fps is destroying 5870 :P by the way every blind person can see it is 470 somebody needs better paint skills lol

Argh, I was expecting price drops :down: :mad:

Yeah, I didn't notice your post when I posted.
03-05-2010, 06:46 AM
SimBy

Quote:

Originally Posted by eric66

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...r/d276985e.jpg

so those chinese results are true 470 sucks in games against 5870 if 2 fps is destroying 5870 :P by the way every blind person can see it is 470 somebody needs better paint skills lol

Suck is too harsh ;) But is it unimpressive after 6 month delay? Damn right :P

I think it's obvious that the only place where GTX4xx will shine are synthetic pure tessellation benchmarks.

Not a very balanced architecture.
03-05-2010, 06:58 AM
saaya

Quote:

Originally Posted by mindfury

http://www.semiaccurate.com/static/u.../fermi_nda.jpg

Obviously someone broke NDA...:cool:

hahah :lol:
damn... those benchmarks look real :S
470 barely beating the 5870 by 8% in unigine, which is a best case scenario as we all know... wow... thats really dissapointing...

so its true then, 470 is slower than the 5870 on average...
and the 480 cant be that much faster than the 5870... even if the 470 is 448cores and the 480 is 512cores plus one extra 64bit gddr5 channel, then the 480 will only be 20% faster than the 470 at best... which means the 480 is 10-15% faster than 5870 at best... bleh :/
03-05-2010, 07:02 AM
SKYMTL

Quote:

Originally Posted by zalbard

Quite a strong statement considering the fact that the very top offer from Nvidia isn't even 2 times faster than a cheaper 5870 (not to mention 5970 which is on par with (or better than) GTX480 in Haven and a much slower GTX470) in the over-the-top tessellation environment of Haven, not to mention some people speculating about GTX480 scoring much closer to 5870 with high IQ settings...
You are not being totally rational here.

We will see when benchmarks are released with tessellation enabled in AvP, Heaven and some other games. I am not even talking about the performance in relation to NVIDIA cards here since the GF100's performance in DX11 is nothing but rumors and vague benchmarks at this point.

With tessellation enabled we have seen massive decreases in performance in the two apps mentioned above. Actually, PCGamesHardware did a good AvP comparison on a HD 5870. Their results are VERY easily repeatable so I suggest you check it out.

It is just a matter of fact that ATI's current hardware isn't designed around DX11's needs. Rather it is a DX9 / DX10 architecture with DX11 functionality added on. This isn't a bad thing per se since the number of DX11 games out there is minimal at best. I am sure when DX11 becomes mainstream, ATI will have an architecture that properly support all of its advanced rendering paths but until then, I will maintain that the HD 5000 series' DX11 performance isn't that great at all.
03-05-2010, 07:04 AM
SimBy

Why did Igor Stanek lose his nerves?!
03-05-2010, 07:13 AM
SKYMTL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teemax

However, SKYMTL's tone sounds a bit odd for an supposedly neutral reviewer. Claiming that Evergreen has "castrated tessellation performance" is a HUGE claim, he should at least back it up with some evidence.

It is a huge claim but see my statement above. Once again, everyone seems to be jumping down on the statement without looking at numbers that actually back it up. Look at DiRT, AvP, Heaven and BF: BC.

What ATI did is a good thing: they concentrated on making a DX11 compatible GPU by adapting an older architecture instead of taking a ton of time designing a newer one. They knew there was no point in concentrating too hard on DX11 so early into its life cycle and they were able to actually beat NVIDIA to market while offering a perfectly suitable solution.

So, yes the HD 5000 series takes a massive hit in DX11 but it was never meant to be their end-all DX11 product anyways. That name goes to their upcoming architecture that will be released when there is a good amount of games that support DX11.

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