Notice to wholesalers and retailers who read here

Dear Performance PCs, Frozen CPU, Swiftech, Danger Den, Sidewinder Computers, Crazy PC, Xoxide, Petra Tech, Coolerguys, and numerous others ......

Perhaps it is the foul mood I am in from ordering stuff which simply does not work or is said to be 'engineered' when in fact it was designed by some dip$hit on photoshop, who failed pre-calculus in high school, took no physics (ever) and whose only experience with real engineering was watching some project on the Discovery channel, but here are a few simple rules to live by if you want to earn business and keep repeat customers happy:

1 - Only list on your website what you directly have in stock. None of this Petra Tech crap where you list all kinds of crap that is always out of stock. That is foogling (fishing for folks thru Google matches) that simply makes me rather give the sale to someone else. An example of a non liquid cooling retailer would be Provantage ... I avoid them like the plague.

2 - It does not cost $14 to ship 20 rubber o-rings by USPS priority mail. So stop the lying and BS, and simply charge what it really costs. Some of you do, .... and .....some of you dont, and try to take on an extra 5% under the table (thru trumped up shipping charges). My message to you....GFY. If it honestly costs $4.80 to send something from New York to California, then charge the customer $4.80..... exactly.

3 - It is fine to take a cut for yourself... after all ... it is a damn business and not a charity. You are in it to make money, for yourself, .... but window stripping does not cost $1.50 per foot, tubing does not cost $1 per foot, Tygon does not cost $3 per foot and barbs do not cost $8 for one compression fitting. If that is what the nut jobs at Bitspower say you have to pay, .... give em the international symbol of good will, ... and go make your own contract. (trust me, it will not cost you even $1 to have a fitting made on a decent Chinese or Taiwanese line).

If you want to know how things should run, look at how Michelle at Swiftech gets stuff done. Lets say my Apogee XT block came with a bent bolt or missing nut .... No questions asked, ...no BS, simply gets the address and phone number and 3 days later you get what you need. Also, Alex (the original owner of Petras) did a fairly good job of getting stuff returned or fixed.

Quit with the BS, ... and be honest - Jay

:soap:

Perhaps it sounds like a soap box Maximus, but IMHO all valid points as well. It is time someone finally mentioned it.

Nothing wrong with standing up on the soap box and expressing your view every once in a while. I'm sure many will respect and agree with what you have stated.

BTW, I did fail Pre-Cal in High School..... Twice ;)

Regardless, I do very well today.

OCM :up:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jayhall0315

Dear Performance PCs, Frozen CPU, Swiftech, Danger Den, Sidewinder Computers, Crazy PC, Xoxide, Petra Tech, Coolerguys, and numerous others ......

Perhaps it is the foul mood I am in from ordering stuff which simply does not work or is said to be 'engineered' when in fact it was designed by some dip$hit on photoshop, who failed pre-calculus in high school, took no physics (ever) and whose only experience with real engineering was watching some project on the Discovery channel, but here are a few simple rules to live by if you want to earn business and keep repeat customers happy:

1 - Only list on your website what you stock. None of this Petra Tech crap where you list all kinds of crap that is always out of stock. That is foogling (fishing for folks thru Google matches) that simply makes me rather give the sale to someone else.

2 - It does not cost $14 to ship 20 rubber o-rings by USPS priority mail. So stop the lying and BS, and simply charge what it really costs. Some of you do, and some of you dont, and try to take on an extra 5% under the table. My message to you....GFY. If it honestly costs $4.80 to send something from NY to CA, then charge the customer $4.80..... exactly.

3 - It is fine to take a cut for yourself... after all ... it is a damn business and not a charity, but window stripping does not cost $1.50 per foot, tubing does not cost $1 per foot, Tygon does not cost $3 per foot and barbs do not cost $8 for one compression fitting. If that is what the nut jobs at Bitspower say you have to pay, .... give em the international symbol of good will, ... and go make your own contract. (trust me, it will not cost you even $1 to have a fitting made on a decent Chinese or Taiwanese line).

If you want to know how things should run, look at how Michelle at Swiftech gets stuff done. No questions asked, ...no BS, simply gets the address and phone number and 3 days later you get what you need. Also, Alex (the original owner of Petras) did a fairly good job of getting stuff returned or fixed.

Quit with the BS, ... and be honest - Jay

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Pretty well said but lets be fair, sometimes thing do go out of stock so we give them the benefit of the doubt on that one.
I agree with you on the shipping part.
I ship a lot of stuff and know the costs..
A buck either way doesn't bother me, an extra $10.00 for apadded mailer that weighs 4 ounces does.
BTW: Petra's doesn't exist anymore even if the web site does.
Alex sold it to another etailer so the service you got from him and Quoc is gone also.
He also had OOS issues but honest ones. He wasn't heavily funded from what I saw but and a big but, what he gave of himself in the way he did business much more than made up for it.
A little story about Alex:
One Friday night I realised I need a water block hold down kit..
It's app 8PM on the East Coast where I live.
I send him a PM hoping to catch him at the shop.
He gets it on his cell. Goes back to the shop, gets it out overnight and it's at my house 3000 miles away the next morning at 10:30am..
I say what do I owe ya and I'll paypal you the money.
He says it's a $4.00 part and forget it.
That's Alex.
I think I sent him $30.00 to cover and would have sent more if I had it.
Now I met him at CES and the guy I met was the guy I expected.
An open hand in friendship and a smile.
Alex; If you read this your welcome here anytime for a good meal.
Ok, I'll step off of my soapbox..:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Movieman

]
BTW: Petra's doesn't exist anymore even if the web site does.
Alex sold it to another etailer so the service you got from him and Quoc is gone also.
He also had OOS issues but honest ones. He wasn't heavily funded from what I saw but and a big but, what he gave of himself in the way he did business much more than made up for it.
A little story about Alex:
One Friday night I realised I need a water block hold down kit..
It's app 8PM on the East Coast where I live.
I send him a PM hoping to catch him at the shop.
He gets it on his cell. Goes back to the shop, gets it out overnight and it's at my house 3000 miles away the next morning at 10:30am..
I say what do I owe ya and I'll paypal you the money.
He says it's a $4.00 part and forget it.
That's Alex.
I think I sent him $30.00 to cover and would have sent more if I had it.
Now I met him at CES and the guy I met was the guy I expected.
An open hand in friendship and a smile.
Alex; If you read this your welcome here anytime for a good meal.
Ok, I'll step off of my soapbox..:D

---

That is most certainly Alex for ya, he's always been a good friend. :up:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jayhall0315

2 - It does not cost $14 to ship 20 rubber o-rings by USPS priority mail. So stop the lying and BS, and simply charge what it really costs. Some of you do, and some of you dont, and try to take on an extra 5% under the table. My message to you....GFY. If it honestly costs $4.80 to send something from NY to CA, then charge the customer $4.80..... exactly. - Jay

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thank you!!!!!
i used to work for a company in the IT dept and i shipped 10-40 things every day, weighed them, printed labels, boxed them, packed them, you name it, and i would send whole desktops, 100 lbs servers whatever. and sometimes i pay for shipping on some small computer parts that can't be more than 4 lbs and paying the same as a ( albeit discounted ~10% ) overnight desktop PC... and made me wonder why they had such a cheap price on the item :\.

ebay had the biggest problem with this, and even THEY cracked down... cmon etailers, stop the bs.

nice post jay.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jayhall0315

Dear Performance PCs, Frozen CPU, Swiftech, Danger Den, Sidewinder Computers, Crazy PC, Xoxide, Petra Tech, Coolerguys, and numerous others ......

Perhaps it is the foul mood I am in from ordering stuff which simply does not work or is said to be 'engineered' when in fact it was designed by some dip$hit on photoshop, who failed pre-calculus in high school, took no physics (ever) and whose only experience with real engineering was watching some project on the Discovery channel, but here are a few simple rules to live by if you want to earn business and keep repeat customers happy:

1 - Only list on your website what you stock. None of this Petra Tech crap where you list all kinds of crap that is always out of stock. That is foogling (fishing for folks thru Google matches) that simply makes me rather give the sale to someone else.

2 - It does not cost $14 to ship 20 rubber o-rings by USPS priority mail. So stop the lying and BS, and simply charge what it really costs. Some of you do, and some of you dont, and try to take on an extra 5% under the table. My message to you....GFY. If it honestly costs $4.80 to send something from NY to CA, then charge the customer $4.80..... exactly.

3 - It is fine to take a cut for yourself... after all ... it is a damn business and not a charity, but window stripping does not cost $1.50 per foot, tubing does not cost $1 per foot, Tygon does not cost $3 per foot and barbs do not cost $8 for one compression fitting. If that is what the nut jobs at Bitspower say you have to pay, .... give em the international symbol of good will, ... and go make your own contract. (trust me, it will not cost you even $1 to have a fitting made on a decent Chinese or Taiwanese line).

If you want to know how things should run, look at how Michelle at Swiftech gets stuff done. No questions asked, ...no BS, simply gets the address and phone number and 3 days later you get what you need. Also, Alex (the original owner of Petras) did a fairly good job of getting stuff returned or fixed.

Quit with the BS, ... and be honest - Jay

---

1. Although virtual warehousing is a common problem mainly with smaller or newer business there are valid reason why you favorite online shop may not have stock:

Manufacturer cannot meet demand / Is out of stock at the time - you can't re-order what you cant get.

There is not enough items out of stock to make an order worth while - i.e if your minimum order to get trade pricing is 20 blocks and only 5 are out of stock... This point is even more valid for the imported brands due to shipping and customs etc.

An improved item / version is on the way that the public does not know about. Your not going to order old stock when you know whats due out next week.

2. Postage - contrary to popular belief postage does actually cost more then the rate charged when you check the post offices or UPS's pricing. when you do this you are being told the cost for them to ship from A to B when they have the parcel. You are forgetting:

The nice box your order arrives in the, the the packing material that keeps your items safe, the tape we do the boxes up with and the label that we put your address on.... last time I checked we have to pay for these items...

Then there is the ever forgotten labour charge im not sure about the retailers you use but we currently do not have access to to an army of magical elves who pack your orders while we sleep. We have to pay workers to do it and they require wages...

Also remember in some cases there is the fuel costs and vehicle wear of getting the orders from the warehouse to the post office / depot if the courier does not collect. Even when they do we still get hit with a fuel surcharge another cost to consider.

Granted you should not take the pi$$ on the postage but don't be surprised if they are slightly higher then normal.

3. Now again I could go in to depth here about the costs that need to be covered to keep the business running inc rent, rates, heating, electric, water etc etc etc but I would be here all day.

Im most cases retailers are not actually making that much money on XYZ product. You have to remember that through the stages for an items production: design, development there are costs. There are then costs shipping the product to the distro then the distro has to take their cut. Then theres the shipping to the retailer and possibly the customs.

If the item is imported and the goods are heavy to ship it will cost alot to ship and the price will rise.

As for Bitspower - I would class it as luxury goods, yes they cost alot and yes they are very very shiny. But if you shiny things you have to pay for them :up:

Otherwise buy a normal barb...

Remember there is always twos sides to a story.

There's a few different websites I'll commonly order things (non-watercooling related) from that are awesome when it comes to knowing whether a product is in stock or not. If there are <10 left in stock, it will specify that in red letters on the product's page. If your order requests more than they have in stock, these companies have typically been good about getting back to you the day of, or the day after if it's passed business hours that day, about the shortage and provide great customer service in how you'd like to take things from there. I've ran inventory at 2 different businesses before, and it's far from hard to keep a system that provides you up-to-date information on your stock given what you've ordered/received and what have been purchased by your customers. That is, unless your business has a terrible shrinkage problem.

As for shipping costs, while it's true that the boxes, packaging material, and other resources add extra cost to what the typical person can ship something on their own for, some companies have exceptionally high costs. I haven't ordered any watercooling parts for quite some time now, but I remember PPC having ridiculously high shipping costs for something that could simply be put in a padded manila shipping envelope. I'm sure others are just the same. Half of the stuff I ordered was actually bought from ncixus.com because their prices were less than the highly bloated ones on PPC and others' sites. Granted the shipping costs were rightfully higher than these other businesses due to some parts coming from Canada, the overall cost evened out and Linus provided amazing, personable customer service whilst PPC and FrozenCPU were lackluster. An added kudos to Alex at PTS who was able to mail a single barb at a fair shipping cost compared to PPC, FrozenCPU, and others wanting $8+.

Lots of valid points made here.
I think the thing that pisses off most customers is like a situation I had happen to me.
Bought a Kill-a-watt,sold for $15.99..
Shipping was 9.95 from California to NH..
When it arrived it was in a manila envelope( NOT a padded mailer) sent first class at a cost of postage of $.85.. Yea,eighty five cents and no tape used.
I can buy that manila envelope for app 25 cents.
That's $1.10 total and the time it took the guy to stick it in the envelope,maybe 30 seconds..
These are the things that make you feel like someone just lifted your wallet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aquatuning

1. Although virtual warehousing is a common problem mainly with smaller or newer business there are valid reason why you favorite online shop may not have stock:

Manufacturer cannot meet demand / Is out of stock at the time - you can't re-order what you cant get.

There is not enough items out of stock to make an order worth while - i.e if your minimum order to get trade pricing is 20 blocks and only 5 are out of stock... This point is even more valid for the imported brands due to shipping and customs etc.

An improved item / version is on the way that the public does not know about. Your not going to order old stock when you know whats due out next week.

2. Postage - contrary to popular belief postage does actually cost more then the rate charged when you check the post offices or UPS's pricing. when you do this you are being told the cost for them to ship from A to B when they have the parcel. You are forgetting:

The nice box your order arrives in the, the the packing material that keeps your items safe, the tape we do the boxes up with and the label that we put your address on.... last time I checked we have to pay for these items...

Then there is the ever forgotten labour charge im not sure about the retailers you use but we currently do not have access to to an army of magical elves who pack your orders while we sleep. We have to pay workers to do it and they require wages...

Also remember in some cases there is the fuel costs and vehicle wear of getting the orders from the warehouse to the post office / depot if the courier does not collect. Even when they do we still get hit with a fuel surcharge another cost to consider.

Granted you should not take the pi$$ on the postage but don't be surprised if they are slightly higher then normal.

3. Now again I could go in to depth here about the costs that need to be covered to keep the business running inc rent, rates, heating, electric, water etc etc etc but I would be here all day.

Im most cases retailers are not actually making that much money on XYZ product. You have to remember that through the stages for an items production: design, development there are costs. There are then costs shipping the product to the distro then the distro has to take their cut. Then theres the shipping to the retailer and possibly the customs.

If the item is imported and the goods are heavy to ship it will cost alot to ship and the price will rise.

As for Bitspower - I would class it as luxury goods, yes they cost alot and yes they are very very shiny. But if you shiny things you have to pay for them :up:

Otherwise buy a normal barb...

Remember there is always twos sides to a story.

---

Valid points ... all. But a few caveats. With respect to 1, if something is not in stock in real time, it needs to not show up. I can see where a larger retailer who stocks hundreds or thousands of individual items can not always in real time remove all items that are out of stock, but far too many sellers now are simply listing mounds of products which they simply dont have in stock (and wont any time soon ... and they know it). It is like a garage sale that advertises $5000 mountain bikes for $50, only when you get there, .... they are out of stock. Titillation with out the tits so to speak.

On 2 and 3, your points do have validity, but then give the buyer an estimation at checkout as to the costs if you are charging for extra large boxing, or special wrapping, etc.... Being shown in detail what makes up the extra 7 bucks is much easier to swallow than just feeling you got ripped. Most reasonable folks have no problem with a fair estimate. Unfortunately, several retailers in the US have been padding the bottom line with an extra 5% (especially on all the small orders that cost less than $30).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Movieman

Lots of valid points made here.
I think the thing that pisses off most customers is like a situation I had happen to me.
Bought a Kill-a-watt,sold for $15.99..
Shipping was 9.95 from California to NH..
When it arrived it was in a manila envelope( NOT a padded mailer) sent first class at a cost of postage of $.85.. Yea,eighty five cents and no tape used.
I can buy that manila envelope for app 25 cents.
That's $1.10 total and the time it took the guy to stick it in the envelope,maybe 30 seconds..
These are the things that make you feel like someone just lifted your wallet.

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YES!!! that kinda crap is... (insert some sort of statement about a government here)!

something else I wish more businesses did, was keep them flat rate boxes around. I buy a lot of fiddly crap from lots of places, and I know it will all fit nicely into one of them $5 boxes 95% of the time. add $2 for 'assorted packing' (bubblewrap) and the $2 to pay the labor to pack it, and it doesnt cost no $15 for shipping.

But, if I want it bad enough, I'll still pay $15 in shipping. And they know it.

Hope you feel better soon, jayhall :)

I know it's frustrating, but I actually have a bigger concern. Will we someday get to the point where places like Newegg and Amazon stock the majority of parts we need for Liquid Cooling? Hmmmm ... certainly stocking/shipping/product cost will probably all improve. But, what then happens to the small retailers we've been dealing with for years? Do they all start to go the way of Petra's and others - getting bought out, or just fail? I know this is how business works - but I think it will be a sad day when we lose the specialized retailers we have today. Probably not something we need to be concerned about in the short term, but dunno what the coming years will bring.

For this reason, I support the specialized retailers, even if I can get something cheaper somewhere else.

No comment Shazza, except I have ordered perhaps 200-300 items off Amazon over the last 10 years and only once ever had a bad experience. No taxes, no trumped up shipping, no exaggerated pricing, no 'handling' fees, ... just what you need with the price that the US Post Office actually charges to ship it as well.

Not saying it is better, but I am a big Amazon fan.

I am an Amazon fan as well (anxiously awaiting arrival of my new Kindle tomorrow). My point was that I think we will lose some of creativity in the hobby if it ever does go big time. I'm one of those who truly misses getting my hand written thank you notes and pens from Petra's. Believe it or not, Performance PCs has never let me down either - and the few times I've had questions on shipping costs, they've been quickly resolved. I know that's not the case for everyone, and their customer service can be a bit rough - but I like dealing with people I "know."

Guess it's the same analogy as the local hardware store being replaced by Home Depot and other big box stores. That said, every small business has to figure out how to survive, and taking care of the points you brought up in your original post is a good place to start.

I've got to throw my 2 cents in on this one.

I make a decent living, working in Afghanistan. The main problem is USPS only shipping and a 2 week wait for everything I order. I tend to always order more than what I need since it's better to have too many screws or too much sleeving than have to wait 2 more weeks to finish a project.

What burns me up is when I want to place an order for 4 screws from these PC shops, it's $2.50 plus $9 shipping. I can order 12 of the same screws from another shop for the same $2.50, and only pay $3 in shipping, and they still make a profit. For twice as much, that 12 screws becomes 50. I order a power supply, $45 for shipping. My case, $85 in shipping is what they wanted. For an 11 lb case. Which came screws missing.

I love supporting shops that support me, but how am I supposed to do that when they keep on fleecing me. If I want a processor, I would much rather order it from the guys that are on here supporting the community, but how am I supposed to do that when they want $100-150 more for the same thing with twice as much for shipping and refuse returns. I've spent weeks waiting for parts that never came, because the company decided to drop-ship and not inform me, and the drop-shipper won't ship to USPS. And they didn't refund my shipping cost.

I know what we do is a niche, and the phase guys have it way harder than us; but it's not impossible to fix. We tend to be a pretty loyal community - look at the massive grudges against Thermaltake and Koolance - and will spend loads of money on something shiny from a company we love without regrets. Don't be greedy. I got an email from Wal-Mart about a year ago apologizing for overcharging shipping costs to APO addresses, and they refunded shipping costs for my previous several orders and have paid actual cost or very very close for every order since. Amazon and other larger retailers give me free shipping on expensive orders. You're telling me when you're taking $2 for a foot of plain black heatshrink, you aren't making enough to give me a break? You still need that $9 for an envelope the post office gives you for free?

For the companies overseas, I can understand. I'll pay 35 Euros for the order, since I obviously want that thing bad enough; but if it breaks, you want me to pay the shipping to send it back, wait until you look at it, and wait for the replacement, on a 99 Euro hunk of plastic and metal that couldn't have cost you more than 10 Euros to produce. We are the ultimate repeat customers, we aren't ordering OEM parts here, we're using our Dremels and soldering irons to use the stuff you're selling us. We'll spend a few hundred bucks because the color isn't quite right. We have no qualms voiding warranties on a thousand dollar item the day we get it.

Give us one shop, just one single shop, that gives us decent service and you'll become the biggest moneymaker in the industry. Bump prices on the flashy new blocks, I don't care, but not on screws, sandpaper, zip-ties, and shipping. We are all educated consumers here, and you are insulting us. We spend hundreds of hours researching hose, you think we don't know how much a screw, padded envelope and a few stamps cost?

Great points, Afghan Mac. I can't even imagine how you folks who don't have easy access do projects - takes patience and planning.

I think the point on screws and other items that you can get somewhere else is these are "supplementary" items carried by the specialty shops. It's a pain to stock them, and I imagine most people only order them if they are getting a larger order. But, your point is valid. I should also clarify that when I said I support the specialty shops, I'm talking about items that are specific to liquid cooling. For example, even though I can order a Swiftech Pump from Newegg, I'll get it from PPCs or another specialty retailer. If I'm ordering a motherboard, CPU, etc - it will come from Newegg, even though PPCs carries some of these products. Same with an order of screws and other odds and ends - if I can't get them locally, I usually go to McMaster Carr (but talk about shipping cost fleecing :) ).

(Not trying to take over jayhall's thread - just enjoying catching up on the forum with my morning coffee)

Agree with shipping

If a company can offer free shipping then i dont understand how it can cost 10+ pounds to have it shipped on a particular day :S

Yes im looking at ebuyer for that one even though they are probably my favorite place to shop for parts :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shazza

and I imagine most people only order them if they are getting a larger order.

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I ordered my thermochill screws from chilledpc(= UK. Notice my location) without anything else just because I was too lazy to go to any local hardware stone just for the screws.


But that's just me :rofl:

However on a good note. Chilledpc doesnt screw you up with shipping. I paid just a few euros for the postage on those screws. They have a really good system imo. The postage fee raises slowly when you add more stuff to the package and once you're order gets expensive and large enough, it then switched from royal mail to UPS/DHL and still isnt really overpriced.

Shazza - I agree with ya (basically), it is a duel edged sword. Hopefully a few retailers will read this and rethink their web design, shipping costs a bit. And yes, I still have a Petra pen in my desk coffee cup :)

Mac - Magnifico ! I lived overseas during several parts of my education and your post completely sums up the poor expat trying to get what he/she needs for a decent price. Your are solidly correct, if someone is going to research Tygon tubing for 4 hours over three weekends, surely they will know how much it really costs per foot and how much it costs exactly to ship it. It is funny how the human mind works; we might willing pay $80 for an Apogee XT or EK Supreme waterblock we know only costs $40 to make and not feel bad, but when it costs $5.72 to ship it and we get charged $11, then it is time to bring out the one legged a$$ kicker.

Note to all stores listed above the post office now offers USPS Priority "FLAT RATE boxes for FREE... Fit anything inside the FLAT RATE box with no weight overcharge.. Cough Performancepcs.. Also yeah Michelle & Gabe at Swiftech are very very nice I met them last year here in Long Beach Swiftech store.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shazza

Great points, Afghan Mac. I can't even imagine how you folks who don't have easy access do projects - takes patience and planning.

I think the point on screws and other items that you can get somewhere else is these are "supplementary" items carried by the specialty shops. It's a pain to stock them, and I imagine most people only order them if they are getting a larger order. But, your point is valid. I should also clarify that when I said I support the specialty shops, I'm talking about items that are specific to liquid cooling. For example, even though I can order a Swiftech Pump from Newegg, I'll get it from PPCs or another specialty retailer. If I'm ordering a motherboard, CPU, etc - it will come from Newegg, even though PPCs carries some of these products. Same with an order of screws and other odds and ends - if I can't get them locally, I usually go to McMaster Carr (but talk about shipping cost fleecing :) ).

(Not trying to take over jayhall's thread - just enjoying catching up on the forum with my morning coffee)

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You're right, Shazza, it take's a ton of planning. With my current build, I went with a H2gO case that took over 2 months of drawings to try and find the right components that would fit inside. Add a month and a half for everything to arrive once the orders were all placed. Then the reorders to replace the things that didn't quite match up with the plans and eyeball estimates.

I completely understand how difficult it is to stock these items, which is why I don't think they should even bother carrying the commodity items. Why stock a i7-980x when you are selling it at a 10% markup, nobody is going to buy it from you and it's just going to devalue as time goes on. I have to disagree with the screws though; you buy a box of 1000 M3 screws, you pay maybe 20 bucks, and they take up very little space. They are part of the ATX or whatever standard, they will sell eventually. They should be cheaper than a molex connector, not 6x the price.

I'll buy my pumps from the specialty shops, just like you. And I order the commodity parts from the big boys, just like you. I don't want to name any names to offend the owners, I know they come here and don't want to discourage them or their customers. My real point is this; give us good prices, good selection, and good service, and we'll come back. Be honest when you plan on drop-shipping. I'm dropping $1000 on an order, you know I can see on the box how much you actually paid to ship the box.

Most of all, I would love to hear from the shop owners. Justify yourselves. Just like jayhall said, we don't mind paying twice what something is worth as long as we don't FEEL fleeced. Help us out.

Most of the parts needed for watercooling is available from the local industrial area. More competition and better service there. Depend on yourself to find the best sources and stop feeling like what was described here.

If you like the convenience of a single store for sourcing your parts, it's inevitable to encounter some of the scenarios mentioned. That's just the way it is, not only in business or trade, but in life too. Kudos to those who are honest and fair, but don't expect the otherwise to be uncommon.

Being unconquerable lies with the self. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War

Small private business made America (and a lot of other countries) great, personal attention to each and every customer was a norm, not an exception. I know that in today's times with everything going International it is tough for a lot of them to compete with the giants in the market. That is how business has become and there is no going back. I do like to give my hard earned money to people like Alex when he owned Petra's. There are many good and decent small shops that work hard just to keep their heads above water and the store in the black. Where will we be when they go under? Do think that Amazon or Newegg will cater to our needs like these fine shops do? Will the giants have their finger on the pulse of the watercooling improvements? Or will they just sell what ever is mass produced regardless of whether it is the "Top Performer" currently being implemented?

A lot of anger has been expressed against Laing for their pump quality, but as NeaKuh stated we alter their design and increase the load on the pumps for a boost in performance for our rigs. Is this their fault? I think not. The moment you decide to "Mod" something you own the responsibility for your actions. And to whether another company such as XSPC tests their tops to the standards and detail that a company with Laing's reputation does is questionable at best. If you do not like the DDC series, simple, do not buy them. There are other options in the market today to meet most people's needs.

I am not directing this post at any one person just a generalized statement. The choices offered in today's market for us watercoolers are fantastic. Just a few years ago this was not the case. So instead of cursing the very existence of these companies why not contact the manufacturer and submit your suggestions for a new pump design with tops that have a proven track record in our field or a design of your own. just my $.015

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Originally Posted by Lu(ky

Note to all stores listed above the post office now offers USPS Priority "FLAT RATE boxes for FREE... Fit anything inside the FLAT RATE box with no weight overcharge.. ...

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qft

We've got a farm store in the area I live in call Atwoods. It's interesting the things you can find there. I know for a fact I can get compression fittings, barbs, tygon, etc there. And not just your stock fittings. I could get some seriously wonky stuff that just doesn't fit on the water cooling market. You might start looking at places like that for the plumbing portion of your water cooling systems.

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Originally Posted by Lu(ky

Also yeah Michelle & Gabe at Swiftech are very very nice I met them last year here in Long Beach Swiftech store.

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Swiftech has a store in Long Beach :eek:? Can you tell me where it is? I would like to visit and thank Gabe for his awesome products and his support of our hobby.

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Originally Posted by jayhall0315

[snip] ... Also, Alex (the original owner of Petras) did a fairly good job of getting stuff returned or fixed.

Quit with the BS, ... and be honest - Jay

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Jay, as usual, you bring up some good points. With the experience I have, I can say that I understand why companies do the things they do but that doesn't mean that I can support/justify/rationalize all of their decisions.

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Originally Posted by Movieman

Now I met him at CES and the guy I met was the guy I expected.
An open hand in friendship and a smile.
Alex; If you read this your welcome here anytime for a good meal.
Ok, I'll step off of my soapbox..:D

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Originally Posted by aspire.comptech

That is most certainly Alex for ya, he's always been a good friend. :up:

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Originally Posted by SiGfever

I do like to give my hard earned money to people like Alex when he owned Petra's. There are many good and decent small shops that work hard just to keep their heads above water and the store in the black.

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Thanks, guys. :)

+1 ChilledPC excellent services and no rip off on the shipping.

Coolermeister (coolercases uk) used to do a good service but I think has stopped - or maybe everything out of stock.

Generally in UK it is not bad. We do not have too many on-line stores but the ones I have used have been good.

I know some people have had problems with Performance PCs, maybe I am lucky but never had complaints (except when customs lost the package which I cannot blame Performance for)

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stuff which simply does not work or is said to be 'engineered' when in fact it was designed by some dip$hit on photoshop, who failed pre-calculus in high school, took no physics (ever) and whose only experience with real engineering was watching some project on the Discovery channel

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I laughed out loud at this. Totally agreed. Stuff like that happens far to often.

Maybe I've been spoiled by Amazon Prime and their free shipping, but I'm disgusted by shipping prices at all the watercooling etailers. And you can never find everything you want, at a good price, at the same place. I wanted to get a DB-1 and some extra tubing. The only problem was no store carries a DB-1 (or other rebrand) and also sells masterklear/duralene 7/16" tubing. PPC, frozenCPU, and a few others all carry the outrageous 1+ dollar per foot Tygon and etc. I'm not paying for that. It's a friggin rubber tube.

Oh and I also miss ordering from PTS and getting a hand written note and a pen :( All my WC gear came from PTS. Big Swiftech fan as well. I know I won't get the shaft from them if I have a problem with their parts.

I must say that as far as inventory goes I really like what Frozen CPU does not only do they list the numbers so you got an idea what if left they will call you if they are out of something. This way I can settle the matter right away and bet my package sent out.

Honestly though shipping really needs to be fixed everywhere though. How does it really cost $50 to overnight something that is small and weights nothing. The fact is it does not as I have had my mom overnight stuff to me and know it is not that much if the item is small. Yet I get killed when I miss one little part and overnight it. Look I just spent over 400$ with you on a bunch of stuff but now I got to pay $80 to get a single compressing fitting overnighted. Logically those are not exact numbers but it is really annoying. IF they had better shipping deals you would see more smaller orders.

Aquatuning - is there a famine in Germany? looks like your fraus are not getting enough to eat (your avatar) ;)

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Originally Posted by DarthBeavis

Aquatuning - is there a famine in Germany? looks like your fraus are not getting enough to eat (your avatar) ;)

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:rofl:

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Originally Posted by SiGfever

A lot of anger has been expressed against Laing for their pump quality, but as NeaKuh stated we alter their design and increase the load on the pumps for a boost in performance for our rigs. Is this their fault? I think not. The moment you decide to "Mod" something you own the responsibility for your actions. And to whether another company such as XSPC tests their tops to the standards and detail that a company with Laing's reputation does is questionable at best. If you do not like the DDC series, simple, do not buy them. There are other options in the market today to meet most people's needs. 5

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Well, this is completely wrong. There is a thing in the law known as "foreseeable misuse", which means that a pump manufacturer must design its pumps with the idea that some customers will intentionally misuse their pump in a foreseeable way. [e.g., ladder manufacturers must foresee that some bonehead will buy their ladder and stand on the very top apex of the ladder, which everybody knows is a misuse of the product, but which every manufacturer must guard against, or be held liable for any injury caused thereby; so they must ensure that the top of the ladder can handle the load of a 250-300 lb fat American lame-brain, and they must put warnings on the top step saying "DO NOT STAND ON THE TOP STEP" in bright yellow letters no less than 2 inches in size, and even that only serves to mitigate their liability, not absolve it]. The same goes for pump manufacturers, and especially Laing, since they know to a moral certainty that the people purchasing their pumps are trying to overvolt them and/ or mount after-market tops on them to increase the head pressure of the pump. So, under the law, the Laing pumps should be designed to handle this type of "modification", which we really should be calling "foreseeable misuse", or they should affix a warning that changing the operating parameters of the pump "may cause significant property damage, fire and/ or serious personal injury or even death", or something like this. Failing to do so, IMHO, makes them complicit in the foreseeable misuse of their pumps (since they are eager to make a profit from the customers who foreseeably misuse their pumps, i.e., the "mod community"), and furthermore it makes them liable for the failure of their pumps. But, like in the ladder example, a warning would only serve to partially mitigate their liability for damages, and would not absolve them from liability.

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Originally Posted by jayhall0315

Dear Performance PCs, Frozen CPU, Swiftech, Danger Den, Sidewinder Computers, Crazy PC, Xoxide, Petra Tech, Coolerguys, and numerous others ......

Perhaps it is the foul mood I am in from ordering stuff which simply does not work or is said to be 'engineered' when in fact it was designed by some dip$hit on photoshop, who failed pre-calculus in high school, took no physics (ever) and whose only experience with real engineering was watching some project on the Discovery channel, but here are a few simple rules to live by if you want to earn business and keep repeat customers happy:

1 - Only list on your website what you directly have in stock. None of this Petra Tech crap where you list all kinds of crap that is always out of stock. That is foogling (fishing for folks thru Google matches) that simply makes me rather give the sale to someone else. An example of a non liquid cooling retailer would be Provantage ... I avoid them like the plague.

2 - It does not cost $14 to ship 20 rubber o-rings by USPS priority mail. So stop the lying and BS, and simply charge what it really costs. Some of you do, .... and .....some of you dont, and try to take on an extra 5% under the table (thru trumped up shipping charges). My message to you....GFY. If it honestly costs $4.80 to send something from New York to California, then charge the customer $4.80..... exactly.

3 - It is fine to take a cut for yourself... after all ... it is a damn business and not a charity. You are in it to make money, for yourself, .... but window stripping does not cost $1.50 per foot, tubing does not cost $1 per foot, Tygon does not cost $3 per foot and barbs do not cost $8 for one compression fitting. If that is what the nut jobs at Bitspower say you have to pay, .... give em the international symbol of good will, ... and go make your own contract. (trust me, it will not cost you even $1 to have a fitting made on a decent Chinese or Taiwanese line).

If you want to know how things should run, look at how Michelle at Swiftech gets stuff done. Lets say my Apogee XT block came with a bent bolt or missing nut .... No questions asked, ...no BS, simply gets the address and phone number and 3 days later you get what you need. Also, Alex (the original owner of Petras) did a fairly good job of getting stuff returned or fixed.

Quit with the BS, ... and be honest - Jay

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Well, hmm, this one, what can I say? First let me say that not everyone who opens a business is obligated to give you the best and most fair deal in the universe. In a capitalist system the price you pay is the price the market will bear. As such, if $20 for shipping is the price people are willing to pay, then that is the price that you will be charged. Prices are set by the forces of supply and demand in the market, and the free market will always set that price at the point where the majority of customers are just on the edge of being unwilling to pay more. [This is the heart of basic micro-economics, and if you didn't know this, well then I may have just taught you one semester's worth of econ 101, if so, then you're welcome.] Now, if you do not like the price set by the free market, you can do one of two things: (1) join the communist party and start a revolution that eradicates the free market system and sets prices by the fiat of the Politburo, or (2) start your own on-line water cooling shop (or invest in one started by somebody else) to increase the supply and thereby lower the price for everybody. If you are unwilling, or unable, to do either of these things, then you should probably just learn to lump it.

Now that being said, I do understand your frustration at feeling "ripped off". These stores should be more transparent about what they are actually charging you, when they charge you "$14 to ship 20 O-rings" (a story which sounds apocryphal to me, btw), in order to avoid this type of anger. They should be required to tell you that you are paying for not just the USPS Shipping costs, but also a HANDLING charge, and a PACKAGING charge. So IMO, your anger is somewhat justifiable (albeit misplaced), because these shops are failing to disclose to you that they are actually charging you for "shipping and handling", and not just the naked USPS shipping rates. Another thing you don't seem to realize is that every business has something called "overhead", which are fixed costs like rent, heat, light, phones, insurance, wages of the employees, interest charges, costs of compliance with various government regulations, as well as other assorted miscellaneous costs for the various materials used in the course of the business. These expenses have to be divided among all of the goods and services sold by the business. Thus when you pay for "shipping", you are not only paying for the USPS rate, but also a percentage of the total overhead of the business. There is one other thing to discuss and that is "profit". Profit is the amount of money left over to a business after all expenses have been paid. My guess is that these businesses are operating on a pretty slim profit margin, probably somewhere between 3-7% at best. You are incorrectly assuming that when you are charged $14 for shipping, that you are contributing $13 to pure profit, which I can assure you is not the case. More likely, you are helping to pay the phone bill, or even the rent, and you are probably contributing only somewhere between $.42 and $.98 to the actual profits of the business. But that being said, I think there should be more honesty and transparency about what you are actually paying for when you pay for shipping.

Lastly, there seems to be a lot of anger generally about the "shipping" charges being too high. Which I guess I can understand, for the reasons set forth above, but what I don't understand is why you people are not complaining about other more outrageous overcharges that occur in our lives? When you go to the hospital is it fair that you are charged $80 for aspirin? How about $900 for an X-ray? Is it fair that you are charged $600 for floor mats in your new car? How about $2,500 for a radio? How about 2% as a "mortgage origination fee"? Why do you not complain about these other outrages? I call them outrages, because these are prices that are distorted, as they are not being set by the free market, but rather have been distorted by unequal bargaining power, monopsony pricing, and/ or exploitation of the third-party moral hazard phenomenon (look it up). Every day, our world becomes more and more of a rich man's world, and the middle class is disappearing as you read this, but you are not concerned? :shrug: I guess my point is that there are prices that you should be worried about, and shipping charges are not it.

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Originally Posted by eth0s

Well, this is completely wrong. There is a thing in the law known as "foreseeable misuse", which means that a pump manufacturer must design its pumps with the idea that some customers will intentionally misuse their pump in a foreseeable way. [e.g., ladder manufacturers must foresee that some bonehead will buy their ladder and stand on the very top apex of the ladder, which everybody knows is a misuse of the product, but which every manufacturer must guard against, or be held liable for any injury caused thereby; so they must ensure that the top of the ladder can handle the load of a 250-300 lb fat American lame-brain, and they must put warnings on the top step saying "DO NOT STAND ON THE TOP STEP" in bright yellow letters no less than 2 inches in size, and even that only serves to mitigate their liability, not absolve it]. The same goes for pump manufacturers, and especially Laing, since they know to a moral certainty that the people purchasing their pumps are trying to overvolt them and/ or mount after-market tops on them to increase the head pressure of the pump. So, under the law, the Laing pumps should be designed to handle this type of "modification", which we really should be calling "foreseeable misuse", or they should affix a warning that changing the operating parameters of the pump "may cause significant property damage, fire and/ or serious personal injury or even death", or something like this. Failing to do so, IMHO, makes them complicit in the foreseeable misuse of their pumps (since they are eager to make a profit from the customers who foreseeably misuse their pumps, i.e., the "mod community"), and furthermore it makes them liable for the failure of their pumps. But, like in the ladder example, a warning would only serve to partially mitigate their liability for damages, and would not absolve them from liability.

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Someone having a bad day? :shrug: :ROTF:

@ ethos. All i can say is, i wish i can type like you. very well said man. and thank you for the 101 lesson. :yepp: :D

omg ethos im sorry but that thing about modifying laing pumps is the biggest BS I've read today :D. There is this thing called "warranty" it generally is made invalid once you modify a product that is under that so called warranty. The same thing goes with all others parts too such as GPU's and other hardware. They arent designed so that you can modify them (voltmods for example) so if you do, you lose your warranty. If you do that and break your gpu, it's no use whining to the manufacturer how their product wasnt able to handle your mods.

Same with the pumps. They are designed to work in the way they are packed in the box. If you start modding with their circuit boards and it breaks, too bad. It's you fault and the manufacturer isnt responsible for it. SAME goes for 3rd party tops too. They arent designed by the pumps manufacturer and neither are they approved by the pump manufacturer so if your pump breaks down and it is caused by a 3rd party top. Boohoo you're out of luck again.

But hey if your DDC breaks down and it's just caused by burning out or something else that isnt due your modding. Then they do get covered by warranty.. Electronics do break so the manufacturer cannot promise that yours will last without breaking.

What you are saying would mean that companies manufacturing chainsaws for example should make them so that it is impossible to cut your hand off with them. Well do they? Obviously not.

Bah where is the common sense gone these days. I'll probaby get flamed now for this but I'll stand by my words, anyone who agree's with ethos's theory on intended misuse is an idiot in my book.

edit: and just to specify a bit. Yes there should be warning stickers on product telling how you shouldnt use them when it includes a risk of some sort of injury or accident or possibly breaking of the product by using it in a wrong way. But this does not apply to modifying them.

Just poking my head in here to let you guys know that if FCPU doesn't actually list a quantity for a product (ex. HAF-922) but shows it in stock, odds are pretty good it's going to be a drop ship item. If you purchase some of the options they offer for that case, it will ship to them so they can do the work and then ship it out to you. . .this will obviously add time to when it actually ships to you and if you pay for 2 day delivery, don't expect it to get to you in 2 days from order. . .it will take a couple days for them to get the case, a couple of days to get the work done and then ship, then 2 days from shipping it from FCPU.

I'll tell you, Since I choose usps shipping, shipping charges from the e-tailers has always been very reasonable. Now, getting something thats less than 1 lb shipped from europe for 25 euro with shipping that takes 2 weeks is BS since i send things to europe for ahlf that and it gets there i 3-5 days.....:P

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Originally Posted by eth0s

Lastly, there seems to be a lot of anger generally about the "shipping" charges being too high. Which I guess I can understand, for the reasons set forth above, but what I don't understand is why you people are not complaining about other more outrageous overcharges that occur in our lives? When you go to the hospital is it fair that you are charged $80 for aspirin? How about $900 for an X-ray? Is it fair that you are charged $600 for floor mats in your new car? How about $2,500 for a radio? How about 2% as a "mortgage origination fee"? Why do you not complain about these other outrages? I call them outrages, because these are prices that are distorted, as they are not being set by the free market, but rather have been distorted by unequal bargaining power, monopsony pricing, and/ or exploitation of the third-party moral hazard phenomenon (look it up). Every day, our world becomes more and more of a rich man's world, and the middle class is disappearing as you read this, but you are not concerned? :shrug: I guess my point is that there are prices that you should be worried about, and shipping charges are not it.

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You make a lot of valid points, and I totally agree with you with most of them. First of all, the reason I am complaining about watercooling specialty shops is because this is the Liquid Cooling forum. I don't see charging a few bucks for screws or inflated shipping as outrageous, but I do see it as somewhat disrespectful. We are a pretty tight community. People from all over the world congregate here to talk about watercooling, and for the most part we order from the same 10 or so shops. Most of us, from the thousands of posts I have read here throughout the years, tend to give these shops the benefit of the doubt. When I ordered a $20 custom cable that was miswired and fried 3 hard drives when I plugged it in, I was pissed. But because that shop did everything in their power to make my previous orders right, I fixed the cable, ordered some more drives, and let it go. I proceeded to order a few thousand dollars of equipment from them in the future.

I'm not loyal to hospitals or car dealerships. They don't get repeat business. They are opportunistic retailers, who have to try and get all they can in one shot. I don't browse the floor of the emergency room for new things to buy each month. These are hobby shops. They make money from our disposable incomes. There is seldom a circumstance where what they offer is necessary for our lives. Because of this, they benefit from making us feel good about our purchases. I never ordered from PTS when Petra owned them, but most of their fame comes from simple handwritten notes included with every order. This made people feel good about their purchase, even if they paid a bit more than they could have elsewhere.

I jumped in on this thread not so much to complain about the prices and services these guys offer, but to make them aware of how their customers feel. They are in this to make money, I understand and appreciate that fact. I have run businesses in the past, and I know how valuable a positive image and word of mouth advertising can be. We, the customers, have a massive influence to these stores' bottom line when we post here. It is in their best interest to read these posts and adapt their business strategies based on customer opinions. In a market this small and specialized, a single thread here can mean one shop sells 100 EK blocks at $70 a piece, or those purchases are directed to a competitor at $80 per piece.

While some may think that padded shipping costs are an irrelevant piece of the puzzle, it comes down to perceived value. Logically or not, I've ordered hundreds of items in the past at higher prices because I knew one company had higher shipping prices. If company A gives me free shipping over $25, and company B charges me $6.95 for shipping, I'll just order more from company A to push me over the limit, even if the premium of the items from company A is over $6.95. I'm also less inclined to return to company B for my next purchase.

Regardless of how much of the shipping and handling goes to the rent, ordering a ziplock bag with 10 o-rings for $2 and then paying $10 for domestic shipping is a ripoff. $3 for 4 screws is crazy. These things are a deterrent to repeat customers. These are the things we forgot after spending $500 at your shop the week before, and many times are replacements for things that should have come with an item but didn't. If it's the Tygon that is keeping your lights on and food on the table, come here and explain it to us. This is your chance to make us feel right. Do that and I'll keep coming back and won't go anywhere else.

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Originally Posted by Elpy

Bah where is the common sense gone these days. I'll probaby get flamed now for this but I'll stand by my words, anyone who agree's with ethos's theory on intended misuse is an idiot in my book.

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His theory explains facts. It's not a matter of opinion...in the US at least.
http://www.attorneys-usa.com/product..._products.html

Hmm i think im starting to understand shipping problems with in the UK out to other country's.

Sending out parcels all over the world is a night mare in the least esp when you send orders to places like Russia and they dont turn up at all. Even with tacking it only stops at customs and never any further and to get a order there we had to pay £45 the product was only worth £40 it self.. So the retailer needs to make that money back some how and i dont blame them. how ever some compnays do over charge way to much on the shipping and if you talking about all the other bits and costs involved then instead of over charging on the shipping the should factor that into the price of the product not the shipping at all.

Selling a customer a case at below RRP then bumping up the shipping is bad ethos. Selling at the RRP and the shipping is the correct price is better. imo

and any dare say that ebay is sorted its shipping policy out is on another planet. You still get scammed every day with ebay shipping . when has it cost £3.50 to ship 2 leds in a 20p envelope and with a 5p sticker on and the postage is second class (4 to 5 days shipping) @ 35p ... bollocks ... extra costs involved my ass ..... esp when i can send dyes to the usa for £2.00 with in 5 days arrival (air mail- small packets) and the padded envelope is only 50p

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Originally Posted by cx-ray

His theory explains facts. It's not a matter of opinion...in the US at least.
http://www.attorneys-usa.com/product..._products.html

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Doesn't change that it's a disgusting concept.

I may be doubling other people's posts, but here's my take on your points:

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1 - Only list on your website what you directly have in stock. None of this Petra Tech crap where you list all kinds of crap that is always out of stock. That is foogling (fishing for folks thru Google matches) that simply makes me rather give the sale to someone else. An example of a non liquid cooling retailer would be Provantage ... I avoid them like the plague.

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1) Completely agreed. I don't understand why Petra's just adds (Out of Stock) to the end of their product instead of making it unavailable temporarily.

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2 - It does not cost $14 to ship 20 rubber o-rings by USPS priority mail. So stop the lying and BS, and simply charge what it really costs. Some of you do, .... and .....some of you dont, and try to take on an extra 5% under the table (thru trumped up shipping charges). My message to you....GFY. If it honestly costs $4.80 to send something from New York to California, then charge the customer $4.80..... exactly.

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2) I think companies like PPCs have a great base where shipping costs a huge amount for small products but not nearly as much when compared to a purchase of much more. This is a good thing, it's very honest. I'm not going to send you a paperclip for the advertised price of 0.01/paperclip and go through the trouble of shipping it for 37 cents. It's not fair to the person having to box it up, the owner of the site who meant for that to be purchased along with other products, and to the planet that has to supply the packaging for that insignificant purchase. PPCs is a strange seller because they sleeve their stuff or modify their products, but sell them like they're still unopened. Shipping is crazy bucks for small amounts of things. Here's my little story that hasn't really ended yet.

Me: "I need a bunch of products. I know FrozenCPU sells great stuff, has a respectable claims service, and has proportional shipping prices. PPCs seems to have made some customers angry and their shipping is very oddly priced! I'm going to buy as much as I can from FrozenCPU and only buy a small amount from PPCs."

*after much wish-list making*

Me: "Alright, two large purchases for a total of 300$ I'm buying about 50$ + 15$ shipping from PPCs and the rest from FrozenCPU. All is good."

*after a little PPCs searching*

Me: "What's this? PPCs has some products significantly cheaper than FrozenCPU! And they have a very large variety of products! Lets see what happens if I migrate my entire purchase to PPCs. :shrug: "

*migrates*

Me: "Aha! I just saved 80$ and made my purchase from one retailer! I still respect FrozenCPU as a retailer for when I need one product and one product only, but PPCs has the advantage of quantity behind them!"

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3 - It is fine to take a cut for yourself... after all ... it is a damn business and not a charity. You are in it to make money, for yourself, .... but window stripping does not cost $1.50 per foot, tubing does not cost $1 per foot, Tygon does not cost $3 per foot and barbs do not cost $8 for one compression fitting. If that is what the nut jobs at Bitspower say you have to pay, .... give em the international symbol of good will, ... and go make your own contract. (trust me, it will not cost you even $1 to have a fitting made on a decent Chinese or Taiwanese line).

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3) Tygon and Bitspower know what the people want: Tubing that won't kink and is nice and clear, and fittings that look beautiful and have a great company servicing their buyers. Us people shouldn't have to pay the premiums they charge, but they don't charge much more than they need to.

:up:

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Originally Posted by Petra

Thanks, guys. :)

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I feel so bad you guys sold yourself to sidewinders.
I wish Xtremesystems would allow a sticky in the forums of retailers who sold watercooling products. I bet you would have gotten much more traffic that way.

The only way I heard of you was when I was browsing a thread and someone said your website.


Note to admins and owners, We really should take initiative to support these small guys since once they are gone, we are left with less variability of products and more expensive places to shop at.

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Originally Posted by cx-ray

His theory explains facts. It's not a matter of opinion...in the US at least.
http://www.attorneys-usa.com/product..._products.html

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But no matter where you read about it always comes back to the safety issue. Not the product breaking down. Yes it says modifying but again it's mostly regarding making the product unsafe. If you mod a product and it breaks, the manufacturer wont be responsible for it breaking. Unless it created somekind of a risk. As in your DDC catching fire and burning youre house down :rolleyes:. If you for example read all the examples there, they all are regarding somekind of a injury or accident..

Remember what I said about GPU's. If you mod one and it breaks, would the manufacturer have to replace/refund it..? no they wouldnt...

Although then again we've all heard silly stories about legal cases there so I wouldnt be surprised... :rolleyes:

overhead and profit margins should be incorporated into product prices, NOT shipping prices...

Wow, went to go check for the circuit layout for these DDC pumps and get some good pizza and a nap on Labor Day. Came back to the Ethos funny farm.

Generally Ethos, many of your comments I actually agree with. As Mac noted though, I dont do repeat business in a family friendly manner with the emergency room, or the radiologist in Perth who reads the out-sourced x-rays for $900, or car dealerships and neither do most world citizens. In the context that Shazza mentioned earlier, watercooling has the emotional element of the sale included (which you forgot to include in the econ 101 lesson you rushed thru). Its much like I go down to get my local pizzeria at lunch to get my cheese pie and suddenly, one day the owner has $3 fee to open the front door, an extra $4 to have the big screen turned on and a $5 if you need to take a dump. While my meal used to cost $10.50, ...it now costs $22.50. Where upons I give my farewells thru the Kimosabee salute and go find a new neighborhood restaurant to visit. It is also why Alex always got my order as long as he had what I needed in stock.

You also did not note option 3, .... and that would be to give fair warning to others buyers that they are being fleeced and help to spread the word. This is called reaction scale displacement (and it is from econometrics, ... the mathematical background behind which much of micro-economics was formulated). For the last three years, 3 dip$hits who ran the city council of this small suburb of Los Angeles were making more than Barack Obama, the UN Secretary General or the CEOs of several major corporations. In order to help correct the problem (one of micro-economics you might say), the message first had to get out thru community activists who finally gained access to the city's budget. ... Same process

I might also add that what you say about over-charges in other areas of the economy (car mats, X-rays, lottes, bitspower fittings, etc...) is relevant and ... correct, with one important qualification, there are people in those areas as well are trying to correct the situations. In fact, if memory serves, the majority of representatives for the people of the United States finally got so fed up with the messed up health care situation and the crazy costs, that they passed a new set of laws to help restructure the system. Whether the laws that passed will succeed or if this was/is the correct path is a political debate (and not one for XS). Just saying, at times even 200 million out of the 307 million living in the USA, get pi$$ed and help to change the system. I usually avoid Einstein, FDR and Ghandi quotes like the plague, by as the ole fakir once said, .... it takes only one man to change the world.

petra once let me return some barbs i had for 2 years, unused of course, for store credit.

he also helped me get a mounting kit for a block from swiftec in which he didnt charge me for at all. he just packed it in with my order which only took 2 days to travel 2300miles.

what REALLY bothers me is...

i can ship a box of stuff to Australia cheaper and faster than i can to somewhere in the USA. i dont get why i can ship a mobo to Melbourne for $10 and it gets there in 4 days but the board i sent to a guy in ohio(3 states over) takes a week for him to get and cost me nearly $18.

newegg seems to have gone downhill recently. orders used to ship same day if you ordered during business hours. lately it seems my orders are pending for 2-3 days before anything happens... but one thing is for sure... they are quick as SHEET to take your money.

but dont think its just retailers/etailers. at work i order everything from distribution(ASI, Ingram Micro,etc) and pay overnight shipping. still takes 2-4 days to get the parts in my hands.

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Originally Posted by Fitseries3

petra once let me return some barbs i had for 2 years, unused of course, for store credit.

he also helped me get a mounting kit for a block from swiftec in which he didnt charge me for at all. he just packed it in with my order which only took 2 days to travel 2300miles.

what REALLY bothers me is...

i can ship a box of stuff to Australia cheaper and faster than i can to somewhere in the USA. i dont get why i can ship a mobo to Melbourne for $10 and it gets there in 4 days but the board i sent to a guy in ohio(3 states over) takes a week for him to get and cost me nearly $18.

newegg seems to have gone downhill recently. orders used to ship same day if you ordered during business hours. lately it seems my orders are pending for 2-3 days before anything happens... but one thing is for sure... they are quick as SHEET to take your money.

but dont think its just retailers/etailers. at work i order everything from distribution(ASI, Ingram Micro,etc) and pay overnight shipping. still takes 2-4 days to get the parts in my hands.

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$10 to melbourne..

gotta be $18 to auckland:rolleyes: ...what courrier do you use?

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Originally Posted by mlwood37

and any dare say that ebay is sorted its shipping policy out is on another planet. You still get scammed every day with ebay shipping . when has it cost £3.50 to ship 2 leds in a 20p envelope and with a 5p sticker on and the postage is second class (4 to 5 days shipping) @ 35p ... bollocks ... extra costs involved my ass ..... esp when i can send dyes to the usa for £2.00 with in 5 days arrival (air mail- small packets) and the padded envelope is only 50p

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what i meant to say is that is ebay finds it to be a problem, of all the places in the world, a community hobby shop should have all their overhead in the pricing of the unit instead of marking down the unit and charging more for something you see after you've amassed a whole cart of things.

Low-listed prices help to draw the crowd, it shows up in google. This strategy is employed everywhere, including brick-n-mortar shops. Those who don't use this strategy eventually do it because the competitor does. When you check-out, it waste people's time and treat would-be-customers like those who failed math.

Be aware of the sleigh of hand or mouth, obvious or not. It's still your responsibility to find the best deal for yourself.

Those who are honest should advertise aggressively. It separates them from the rest, but sometimes shipping issues are not so clear cut.

Agree with some of the points that Jay makes, and I disagree with a lot too. The small guys are never going to give you the packaged assembly line experience that NewEgg or Amazon gives you. We should expect to pay a little more, and deal with a little headache. This is a nich market. In a way it is like ordering auto parts online. We have to know what we're looking for, and sometimes we pay more because it is a specialized part. Telling the e-tailers to make their own bitspowered part is not really feasible IMHO.

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"If you want to know how things should run, look at how Michelle at Swiftech gets stuff done. Lets say my Apogee XT block came with a bent bolt or missing nut .... No questions asked, ...no BS, simply gets the address and phone number and 3 days later you get what you need. Also, Alex (the original owner of Petras) did a fairly good job of getting stuff returned or fixed."

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Michelle is good, but they have their processes too. Just pointing out that when they had a bad screw I had to scan and send a copy of the reciept. Not a problem, but you make it seem like they just do stuff no questions asked, which in my experience isn't true. Although it is expected behavior.

Also, being really good at calculus and physics does not make you a good engineer, but it can help ;) ... Take fluid and thermodynamics while you're at it :-)

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Originally Posted by Vinas

Agree with some of the points that Jay makes, and I disagree with a lot too. The small guys are never going to give you the packaged assembly line experience that NewEgg or Amazon gives you. We should expect to pay a little more, and deal with a little headache. This is a nich market. In a way it is like ordering auto parts online. We have to know what we're looking for, and sometimes we pay more because it is a specialized part. Telling the e-tailers to make their own bitspowered part is not really feasible IMHO.

Michelle is good, but they have their processes too. Just pointing out that when they had a bad screw I had to scan and send a copy of the reciept. Not a problem, but you make it seem like they just do stuff no questions asked, which in my experience isn't true. Although it is expected behavior.

Also, being really good at calculus and physics does not make you a good engineer, but it can help ;) ... Take fluid and thermodynamics while you're at it :-)

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My experience may change tomorrow, but so far I have never been asked to scan or fax in a receipt (not that I recommend that Swiftech allow themselves to be taken advantage of either). The main point is, .... they just plain take care of business, and dont hold up your day, your build or your mental health with a bunch of unnecessary BS.

.....and I was not just required to take alot of thermo, as a faculty member, I now how to teach it as well (and I dont get a say in it, LOL, cause I am low man on the totem pole).

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Originally Posted by jayhall0315

Not saying it is better, but I am a big Amazon fan.

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Me too. They don't even charge restocking fees. I can try out RAM sticks, for example, and send them back if need be. This is so awesome that I don't unethically take advantage of it but it's hard not to sometimes! :p:

And yes big time kudos to Gabe and Michelle for attentive and overall excellent customer service!

Gotta mention that I like amazon too because I can get stuff a lot cheaper from there than in Finnish stores. However I will not trust their customer support again <.<. They once had one over 300£ OCZ SSD there for sale for a bit over 100£ and said that shipping dates would be about 1 month away.. A lot of ppl spotted that and many, including me emailed them and asked if the price is really really right because it is so cheap. And the answer was "yes the price is correct".. So we ordered and waited 1 months. Then we got an email saying its delayed. We waited another month... And then happened what we were afraid of. Email saying "this order has been cancelled because the price was incorrect". WTF? Why the :banana::banana::banana::banana: didnt they check and correct it when they received a ton of emails about it.. Why give people hope and then cancel it 2months later :mad:. That's seriously the first time I've ever been so mad with any customer support.

A lot of ppl saw it coming and I had my doubts too but god damnit still!