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3 Attachment(s)
Instead of sucking a bunch of hot air, try this bong instead!
After reading a thread here on this forum, I decided to pursue alternative method of building a bong. The primary feature of this bong uses a vacuum to boil the liquid-coolant, to bring about our cooling effect.
My liquid-coolant chambers are nothing more than Pentek whole-house water filter housings. These can be readily obtained online in many locations. There are many options to choose from. Mine is the larger 20" tall model, with clear sumps.
I got my housings earlier this week. All I could do was grin as soon as I started looking at them. They're sooo BIG and absolutely BEAUTIFUL. They play the part of looking like plasma coolant chambers from some scifi show. Now let me state that these components are part of a much larger project, in which I'm building a cluster with five motherboards all inside of a Pelican 1780 Transport case. The idea is to create something that looks like it would have been used on Stargate SG-1. So I'm looking for a definite alien appearance here.
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1428264
Now the one constraint in this design, is that everything must exist inside that case. Only the condenser or radiator will be mounted to the exterior. That's obviously necessary, since we have to dump the heat of the system outside. I mentioned a condenser, because I haven't decided on whether I will also be cooling my fluid with a Phase-Change system or not. But in this thread, I'm going to concentrate on the efficiency of the liquid-cooling loop using vacuum-induced boiling to release vapor and cool the liquid.
Now here's where I should point something out. The chief characteristic of this system, is the boiling of the liquid-coolant under a vacuum. But the means to produce boiling isn't limited to using low pressures. Boiling can also be easily achieved with ultrasonics, in the same way that ultrasonic humidifiers work. The major point here, is to get the fluid to boil. How, is irrelevant.
Others have tried using coolant-soaked wicks to produce evaporation by moving air across their surface. That is a fundamentally inefficient way of getting liquid to vapor-phase. One of the main reasons for this inefficiency is the ambient humidity the system operates in. Because of that inefficiency, a much larger (if not colossal) system must be built to get a lesser effect than using a vacuum.
The common technique of building what is essentially a swamp-cooler (with a bong), requires that air move over the surface of a fluid (aeration). But the ability of the air to capture and carry vapor away from the liquid is an indirect process. By definition, the area subject to evaporation by aeration, is significantly smaller than the entire volume of a fluid being caused to boil. In boiling, we're using cavitation within the fluid. The only difference here being that we're not adding heat to our system. We're dropping pressure to lower the boiling point.
So now, I will introduce you to the components of this system.
Shingoshi
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An explanation of the components...
The picture of the Pelican should be obvious. The case has the following internal dimensions:
42.00" x 22.00" x 15.10" (106.6 x 55.9 x 38.3 cm)
The Pentek 20" and 10" filter housings are pictured with their clear sumps and blue caps. Mine have black caps instead. The housings are actually sold by Watts. You can see the dual opposing ports here. They have a 1" NPT female thread. They have a fairly heavy construction. And since I'm using them as vacuum chambers, pressure won't be as much of an issue. I'll just have to be concerned whether these can implode by heavy vacuum.
I kind of got ahead of myself (I wrote the paragraphs after this one, before giving the essential background). I should have explained the purpose and function of the injectors. So I'll give you this link to Wikipedia to explain them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Injector
As you will see from reading this, injectors are capable of drawing an additional fluid into an existing stream. In the end, the two streams are combined. This happens because the injector is creating a vacuum on the second fluid.
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Now, here's the special treat. I found these injectors on the net. And the first time I saw them, I simply gasped. Not only are they designed as I need them to be, they're also damn gorgeous. But then, there's always problems with realizing one's expectations.
The Mazzei Injectors come in many sizes. But only the 2", 3" and 4" models have suction ports larger than 1" NPT. The model that first got my attention was the #3090. However, I couldn't tell from the pictures just how beastly that thing is. It has 3" male NPT intake and outlet ports. The suction ports are 1.5" male NPT. As you can see, there are two of them. That's unusual. In fact, they're patented.
The intent, before finding out just how large the 3090 is, was to mount it between the two filter housings having fluid entering from the other two ports. However, now that I know just how large they are, I'm inclined to use the smaller 2" models. In that case, I will mount the housings directly together in series, with the Mazzei Injector mounted on the end port of the pair.
But when I thought about it some more, I realized that I really want to draw vapor from BOTH housings in the same manner that I intended to do with the 3090. In this case, I need a tee connection between the housings, with the 2" injector mounted in the middle.
Now that I went back and corrected my omission, I'll continue with the outline of this project.
The purpose here is to pump liquid-coolant through the injector at high-pressure. That high-pressure flow will cause a vacuum to be created in the housings. The liquid in the housings will then boil, and in result lower the temperature of the liquid. It's with this fluid that the system will then be cooled.
Shingoshi
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What is the liquid/fluid going to be?
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Just for the benefit of everyone...
It should be pointed out that injectors of smaller size can be used in any liquid-cooling system to increase the flow of liquid through that system. You can always find an injector small enough to benefit your cooling loop. So, they're not just for creating vacuums. Although, they do do a good job of that too!
Shingoshi
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I think it's the same as yours...
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Originally Posted by
Naja002
What is the liquid/fluid going to be?
I'm using an antifreeze mixture. But I'm considering other fluids as well. In the course of my research, I came upon antifreeze that's formulated from soy. I guess they create an alcohol with it which is nontoxic. They use it in the food industry. Especially for the production of ice cream. It has the special characteristic of causing the formation of smaller ice crystals. That would be beneficial to me, since I'm thinking of running a slurry through my system. Slurry, as in kind of like the consistency of a milk shake. But in any case, I'm looking for fluids that will support much lower freezing points.
Shingoshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shingoshi
I'm using an antifreeze mixture. But I'm considering other fluids as well. In the course of my research, I came upon antifreeze that's formulated from soy. I guess they create an alcohol with it which is nontoxic. They use it in the food industry. Especially for the production of ice cream. It has the special characteristic of causing the formation of smaller ice crystals. That would be beneficial to me, since I'm thinking of running a slurry through my system. Slurry, as in kind of like the consistency of a milk shake. But in any case, I'm looking for fluids that will support much lower freezing points.
Shingoshi
Right, but that's what you are going to boil via vacuum to provide the cooling, correct?
What are the candidates for a slurry if you go that route?
What kind of temps are you expecting to be able to acheive? and under what load?
What kind of tubing/piping are you going to be using?
What's the ETA on the "completion" of this cooling project? Meaning this cooling project, not the entire bigger multi-PC, etc project...:up:
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I just called to verify delivery of my case...
After getting the email from Pelican Tuesday that the case was on the way, I called Optics Planet to see what was happening on their end. Hopefully, I'll my case by next Friday. Hopefully!
I really can't do anything else without having that case. I have to map out the placement of the components I want to use. I'm trying to build the system with as little tubing in it as possible. I can achieve that by directly connecting as many of the components together. Only using tubing if absolutely necessary.
And truthfully, I'm not rich. This is possibly an undertaking I would have been better off not trying. We'll just have to see what happens. If any unforeseen problems, especially any unrelated to this project occurs, I'll be set back for months. It's happened to me before. But I felt if I shared this, someone else might benefit from seeing how I developed the concept here.
Shingoshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shingoshi
After getting the email from Pelican Tuesday that the case was on the way, I called Optics Planet to see what was happening on their end. Hopefully, I'll my case by next Friday. Hopefully!
I really can't do anything else without having that case. I have to map out the placement of the components I want to use. I'm trying to build the system with as little tubing in it as possible. I can achieve that by directly connecting as many of the components together. Only using tubing if absolutely necessary.
And truthfully, I'm not rich. This is possibly an undertaking I would have been better off not trying. We'll just have to see what happens. If any unforeseen problems, especially any unrelated to this project occurs, I'll be set back for months. It's happened to me before. But I felt if I shared this, someone else might benefit from seeing how I developed the concept here.
Shingoshi
Sorry, but that makes no sense to me. You can connect the 2 filter housings together with the mazzei--ok, got that. But how are you going to connect the other components together? You are going to need tubing or pipe or solder, braze weld, etc.
What temps are you expecting to be able to achieve with this cooling system? No phase-change, just this cooling system--boil via vacuum....
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Operator, operator! A direct connection please!
Most of the components in the system use NPT fittings. So I'll be able to connect the following components without tubing between them:
1.) Watts/Pentek Filter Housings = Reservoirs
2.) Mazzei Injector #2081A/2083X = Vacuum Pump
3.) Danner Hy-Drive 4800 GPH = Liquid-Coolant pump.
With the use of NPT adapters, most of these will connect directly. If I remember correctly, you don't use solder, brazing or similar means to connect PVC!
If I don't go the sub-zero route as we've discussed before, the use of other connecting techniques won't be required. I don't know yet. I haven't made up my mind.
Shingoshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shingoshi
Most of the components in the system use NPT fittings. So I'll be able to connect the following components without tubing between them:
1.) Reservoirs = Filter Housings
2.) Mazzei Injector = Vacuum Pump
3.) Danner Hy-Drive 4800 GPH liquid-coolant pump.
Right. The mazzei connects directly to both the res's and actually connects the res's together. Got it. The pump has to be connected somehow, so I gather from your comment below that you will be using PVC and some tubing for the most part, correct?
Is that 4800 GPH a typo? Nevermind, I googled it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shingoshi
With the use of NPT adapters, most of these will connect directly. If I remember correctly, you don't use solder, brazing or similar means to connect PVC!
Right. PVC is welded. :up:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shingoshi
If I don't go the sub-zero route as we've discussed before, the use of other connecting techniques won't be required. I don't know yet. I haven't made up my mind.
Shingoshi
So, you are expecting to be able to achieve sub-zero temps with your "boil via vacuum" cooling system, correct? That sub-zero C or F? And at what load?
Are you going to be incorporating "ultrasonics" into this system?
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No Jack in the Box!!
This really shouldn't have been too difficult to understand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shingoshi
I really can't do anything else without having that case. I have to map out the placement of the components I want to use. I'm trying to build the system with as little tubing in it as possible. I can achieve that by directly connecting as many of the components together. Only using tubing if absolutely necessary.
Think about it for a moment. I really don't have that much space to work with. It may seem like a lot. But I know from my experience with packing luggage, I'm going to have a lot of work ahead of me consolidating as much as I can.
My reservoirs are going to consume a lot of space on their own. I'm going to need to pack many things around them to capitalize on all the available space. I need to pack this as densely as humanly possible. I'm thinking that if I assemble everything outside of the case first, and then install the components as integrated units, much of the work can be reduced. I will likely remove the mounts for the pump and let it simply hang on the injector. The only concern there is whether the injector can support the weight. Most of my waking hours are spent thinking about this project. So yes. I know exactly how difficult it's going to be.
Shingoshi
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I think you missed a few things...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shingoshi
With the use of NPT adapters, most of these will connect directly. If I remember correctly, you don't use solder, brazing or similar means to connect PVC!
If I DON'T go the sub-zero route as we've discussed before, the use of other connecting techniques won't be required. I don't know yet. I haven't made up my mind.
Shingoshi
I think of PVC welding as a form of gluing. But I may be wrong there too. The fact is, I want NO heat sources near this case. Especially not open flames.
You missed what I said here. I said I'm thinking of NOT trying to obtain sub-zero temperatures. Some of the stuff you've said elsewhere really hit home. I understood what you were saying, and took it into account. So I'm trying to be more pragmatic about the capabilities of the build. The realities of economics are substantially influential here. I get it.
No. I don't expect to get sub-zero temperatures from using low-pressure boiling. I know that's how it's achieved in refrigeration systems. But this is an entirely different beast.
As far as ultrasonics go, I'm not sure about that either. Not because it would be difficult, but because it brings a whole new level of cost to the project. Although, ultrasonics in the form of humidifiers can be brought cheaply on the internet. You really wouldn't need too many of them to contribute to the liquid's cavitation.
Shingoshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shingoshi
This really shouldn't have been too difficult to understand.
Think about it for a moment. I really don't have that much space to work with. It may seem like a lot. But I know from my experience with packing luggage, I'm going to have a lot of work ahead of me consolidating as much as I can.
My reservoirs are going to consume a lot of space on their own. I'm going to need to pack many things around them to capitalize on all the available space. I need to pack this as densely as humanly possible. I'm thinking that if I assemble everything outside of the case first, and then install the components as integrated units, much of the work can be reduced. I will likely remove the mounts for the pump and let it simply hang on the injector. The only concern there is whether the injector can support the weight. Most of my waking hours are spent thinking about this project. So yes. I know exactly how difficult it's going to be.
Shingoshi
Ummmmm, No, that's not hard to understand at all. What's hard to understand is how any of that keeps you from providing info on materials usage, system expectations, etc. :up:
So, why dodge the questions? :shrug: Pretty simple stuff. You have a plan, so lay it out. I understand your goal. Now I'm trying to understand how you are going to get there. :up:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Naja002
Right. The mazzei connects directly to both the res's and actually connects the res's together. Got it. The pump has to be connected somehow, so I gather from your comment below that you will be using PVC and some tubing for the most part, correct?
Is that 4800 GPH a typo? Nevermind, I googled it.
So, you are expecting to be able to achieve sub-zero temps with your "boil via vacuum" cooling system, correct? That sub-zero C or F? And at what load?
Are you going to be incorporating "ultrasonics" into this system?
Other previous questions unanswered/unverified:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Naja002
Right, but that's what you are going to boil via vacuum to provide the cooling, correct? Apparently PVC?
What are the candidates for a slurry if you go that route?
What kind of temps are you expecting to be able to acheive? and under what load?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shingoshi
You missed what I said here. I said I'm thinking of NOT trying to obtain sub-zero temperatures. Some of the stuff you've said elsewhere really hit home. I understood what you were saying, and took it into account. So I'm trying to be more pragmatic about the capabilities of the build. The realities of economics are substantially influential here. I get it.
Right, but I think that is in reference to using a refrigeration type system--a more "traditional" refrigerant phase-change system. So, "refrigeration" is basically out. Good. Because with it--all this is hooey. Worthless garbage. If you are going to do this--Cool. If you are going to do a "water chiller" (refrigerant/phase-change)--then do that. Both systems will not work together. :up:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shingoshi
No. I don't expect to get sub-zero temperatures from using low-pressure boiling. I know that's how it's achieved in refrigeration systems. But this is an entirely different beast.
Ok, Cool. So, how much cooling effect do you expect to achieve and at what capacity?
Yes, this is an entirely different beast....and that's the point. No phase-change/refrigerant. The 2 systems will not/cannot work favorably toward each other. So, it's one or the other. This project is about your "boil in a vacuum" cooling system. Let's not lose sight of that. :up:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shingoshi
As far as ultrasonics go, I'm not sure about that either. Not because it would be difficult, but because it brings a whole new level of cost to the project. Although, ultrasonics in the form of humidifiers can be brought cheaply on the internet. You really wouldn't need too many of them to contribute to the liquid's cavitation.
It's going to be a fairly small quantity of liquid in the system, so cost should really not be an issue. You spent how many times as much on the Res's? The pump? You linked to some inexpensive ultrasonics somewhere--what were they like $10 each. How many you going to need?
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Ok, we were both posting at the same time. Give me a minute to edit this....:up: Edit above line....:up:
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What I can do, depends on what I can have...
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Ummmmm, No, that's not hard to understand at all. What's hard to understand is how any of that keeps you from providing info on materials usage, system expectations, etc.
I will be limited to the performance of the combined components I can fit in this case. I just don't want to say one thing, and then have to eat my words, so to speak. So again, I'm trying to be conservative about my expectations and goals.
Not only is this case not very deep, neither are my pockets, if you know what I mean.
Shingoshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shingoshi
I will be limited to the performance of the combined components I can fit in this case. I just don't want to say one thing, and then have to eat my words, so to speak. So again, I'm trying to be conservative about my expectations and goals.
Right, but you should have a reasonable idea of what the load is going to be and what the cooling effect is going to be. :up: As far as "eating my words": many people have issues with that. Personally, I don't. In my project threads I point out my failures, goofs and stupidity. I'm human--that's the way it is. :up: If everything always worked out perfectly--where would the fun be? Where's the challenge? :shrug: I'm no rocket scientist--just some guy that likes to learn and actually check things out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shingoshi
Not only is this case not very deep, neither are my pockets, if you know what I mean.
Shingoshi
I understand on both counts. I squander most of my dimes on these projects. It's all good. I'm only going to live until I die anyway, so WTF.....:D
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Maybe you can help me with this...
The NPT ports on my reservoirs are 1" females. Pentek makes a head that has 1.5" female NPT ports. But supposedly, it won't fit on my sumps. So last night, I got the idea of tapping the existing threads to 1 1/4". I think there's enough room to do that. But I want to know what problems could I create by doing so?
1.) Could I weaken the ports too much. I don't see how. Because the 1.5" heads don't look any different than the heads I have.
I looked for the prices of 1 1/4" NPT taps. And they're almost as much as buying another smaller 10" filter housing with the 1.5" ports as standard (http://filter.filtersfast.com/search...core&view=list).
But I'm not sure if I would have the room to add yet another reservoir, no matter how small it is. It would be advantageous. Because then I wouldn't have so much trouble figuring out how I'm going to mount my injector. But again, I have to wait to see if it's even possible. I almost want to return these housings. But that would really kill my spirit in doing this. Because the cosmetics are integral to the build itself. I want to see the liquid boiling in the reservoirs. Just like scenes from old TV shows. Frankenstein and the like. So this is also about emotion. I want to continue to be fascinated with this build.
That's why I don't want to give any specs. It would just be premature.
Shingoshi
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C'est la vie!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Naja002
I understand on both counts. I squander most of my dimes on these projects. It's all good. I'm only going to live until I die anyway, so WTF.....:D
I'm 52, about to be 53 next month. Every time I hear of another death, especially of someone I respected so much as Walter Cronkite, parts of me die too. He was part of my childhood. Maybe it's my age. I'm doing this project much for the very reason that you've stated here. I have to forget how little I have to work with, and just work with what life offers me. But I'm becoming increasingly cognizant of that as I get older. And with the condition of my health, this swine flu really scares me.
Part of me really just wants to leave some sort of legacy behind when I'm gone. I don't want my ideas to die with me. C'est la vie.
Shingoshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shingoshi
The NPT ports on my reservoirs are 1" females. Pentek makes a head that has 1.5" female NPT ports. But supposedly, it won't fit on my sumps. So last night, I got the idea of tapping the existing threads to 1 1/4". I think there's enough room to do that. But I want to know what problems could I create by doing so?
1.) Could I weaken the ports too much. I don't see how. Because the 1.5" heads don't look any different than the heads I have.
I looked for the prices of 1 1/4" NPT taps. And they're almost as much as buying another smaller 10" filter housing with the 1.5" ports as standard (
http://filter.filtersfast.com/search...core&view=list).
But I'm not sure if I would have the room to add yet another reservoir, no matter how small it is. It would be advantageous. Because then I wouldn't have so much trouble figuring out how I'm going to mount my injector. But again, I have to wait to see if it's even possible. I almost want to return these housings. But that would really kill my spirit in doing this. Because the cosmetics are integral to the build itself.
That's why I don't want to give any specs. It would just be premature.
Shingoshi
Go to Lowes (not Home Depot--Lowes has a 1000x better plumbing dept). You may get lucky and find a 1" x 1.5" adapter. If not, then you can certainly piece it together.
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Are you kidding!!
We BOTH shop at Lowe's! That's why I think we live in the same town. Because they've mentioned someone who could fit your description (by the nature of your builds) having been in there too. Granted we could be across country from one another. But it would be kind of scary to think there's someone else in this town other than you more crazy than I am!! :rofl::rofl::rofl:
Shingoshi
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What components do you have in-house?
What has been ordered/shipped?
What do you still need to order/purchase?
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Just the basics...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Naja002
What components do you have in-house?
What has been ordered/shipped?
What do you still need to order/purchase?
1.) I have my reservoirs and cooling loop already built from a previous system. It has four cooling blocks already plumbed (originally for my Tyan S4980).
2.) My case has already been ordered. Should ship next week.
3.) I still need to get my Danner pump, and the injector. I think I will order the pump first.
The pump and the injector cost about the same. But I'll likely only be able to get one at a time. That's with me sticking to the 2081A/2083X pump. I'm waiting to hear back from Mazzei, what the difference is between them.
I really need to do some more reality checks. I need to make sure I'm not biting off more than I can chew, or is practical.
Shingoshi
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Naj, you're right...
I live in a world of speculative thinking. Theory and theoretical speculation is what I love. And here's a perfect example of this.
Background: Since I'm dealing with vapors, and clouds are bodies of vapor, this is no stretch for me. I was wondering about the term supersaturation as it refers to vapor. So once more I turned to my friend Wikipedia. Here's something that I found:
Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_physics
Supersaturation
Supersaturation of more than 1-2% relative to water is rarely seen in the atmosphere.[5] For high levels of supersaturation there must be no condensation nuclei for the water vapor to condense on.
Supersaturation can also occur relative to ice. This is much more common in the atmosphere than supersaturation relative to water. Water droplets are able to maintain supersaturation relative to ice (remain as ice water droplets and not freeze) because of the high surface tension of each microdroplet, which prevents them from expanding to form larger ice crystals. Without ice nuclei supercooled liquid water droplets can exist down to about -40 C/F, at which point they will spontaneously freeze.
Now I had dismissed to possibility of obtaining sub-zero temperatures using nothing other than vacuum-induced boiling. But stay with me for a moment on this. In an absorption refrigerator, heat is used to evaporate ammonia and butane from water in the system. The butane is later separated from the ammonia, with the evaporating butane causing the ammonia to become cooled.
And my question has always been, since the purpose of using heat (due to a lack of electricity) is used to boil the ammonia/butane/water mixture, if you actually have electricity available to use, why can't you run a vacuum pump to achieve the same function to boil the mixture. Remember, we're only after the result here, not the method. The result is to evaporate a gas from a liquid. The original method used heat. But what if you could boil that liquid by another means.
So let's say that the Mazzei Injectors are indeed strong enough to produce the desired strength of vacuum. And think of this. I could use multiple smaller Mazzei Injectors connected to a single pump. The combined strength of the vacuum produced should definitely do what's required here. You would simply need to mount the Injectors on a manifold to distribute the flow from the pump to all of them. Why couldn't the Injectors be used as our means to evaporate butane from a liquid instead of using heat. Water holds butane rather well. And the colder the water, the more butane it will hold. The advantage here being the more butane present, the colder the temperatures will be from it's evaporation. You could wind up with a refrigerator, driven by nothing more than a vacuum pump.
I don't know. I was just thinking about this. And it has been bugging me for a long time now.
Shingoshi
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A challenge to all liquid-cooling builders...
If you've read the thread well, you will see that Mazzei Injectors will increase the flow of liquid in your system. There's one model in particular which I think most builders can use without modification to their systems. That model is the #484. It has 1/2" MPT fittings on both the intake and outlet of the injector. The suction port is 1/4" MPT. With those fittings, just about anyone can use this.
So the challenge is to get one, and see how much your temperatures drop as a result of the increased flow through your system. It will increase your flow 5 times over what you have now!
Just search for "Mazzei Injector #484". You could even do a product search for quick results.
MAKE SURE TO USE 1/2" BRAIDED PVC TUBING, AND RADIATOR HOSE CLAMPS!!
Like the kind you would get from Lowe's.
Good Luck!
Shingoshi
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What exactly were you referring to??
Quote:
Originally Posted by
denice25
wow, that's awesome...
I don't know what part of this thread was awesome to you. Whether it was just my last post, or the entire thread. Please explain, and especially how this helps you.
Shingoshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shingoshi
I think of PVC welding as a form of gluing. But I may be wrong there too. The fact is, I want NO heat sources near this case. Especially not open flames.
You missed what I said here. I said I'm thinking of NOT trying to obtain sub-zero temperatures. Some of the stuff you've said elsewhere really hit home. I understood what you were saying, and took it into account. So I'm trying to be more pragmatic about the capabilities of the build. The realities of economics are substantially influential here. I get it.
No. I don't expect to get sub-zero temperatures from using low-pressure boiling. I know that's how it's achieved in refrigeration systems. But this is an entirely different beast.
As far as ultrasonics go, I'm not sure about that either. Not because it would be difficult, but because it brings a whole new level of cost to the project. Although, ultrasonics in the form of humidifiers can be brought cheaply on the internet. You really wouldn't need too many of them to contribute to the liquid's cavitation.
Shingoshi
Shingoshi, You really should not edit your posts after they have been replied to.....:down: Spelling, grammar--that's one thing. But adding or subtracting to a post after the discussion moved on is the wrong thing to do. Anything that changes the post or part of it--is the wrong thing to do. Adding or subtracting emphasis can be ok--as long as it doesn't change the overall impact of the statement/post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shingoshi
If you've read the thread well, you will see that Mazzei Injectors will increase the flow of liquid in your system. There's one model in particular which I think most builders can use without modification to their systems. That model is the #484. It has 1/2" MPT fittings on both the intake and outlet of the injector. The suction port is 1/4" MPT. With those fittings, just about anyone can use this.
So the challenge is to get one, and see how much your temperatures drop as a result of the increased flow through your system. It will increase your flow 5 times over what you have now!
Just search for "Mazzei Injector #484". You could even do a product search for quick results.
MAKE SURE TO USE 1/2" BRAIDED PVC TUBING, AND RADIATOR HOSE CLAMPS!!
Like the kind you would get from Lowe's.
Good Luck!
Shingoshi
The challenge is not to get others to "test" your theories and components for you. The challenge is for you to put your theories together and make them reality. :up:
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Some of our posts have been so close together, it's unavoidable!
As you already noticed, we were posting almost simultaneously. And sometimes when I'm posting a correction, you're already answering it, before I have a chance to see what you've posted in response to something I intended to correct. That's just the nature of the beast. Best advice would be to let me have more time to look over my posts, to make sure that I'm really satisfied with them. If you see that I've just posted something, you could let more time lapse before responding. Otherwise, the condition will remain.
And once again. There's nothing theoretical about injectors and their operation. I don't need to prove them to you or anyone else. That's already been done by several industries which use them on a daily and constant basis. So stop calling something that's reality, theory. You would be better off just to say you don't understand how they work. Because if you did understand how they work, you would stop calling them theories.
Since nearly 40 minutes have passed since I saw this being posted, I should be safe.
Shingoshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shingoshi
As you already noticed, we were posting almost simultaneously. And sometimes when I'm posting a correction, you're already answering it, before I have a chance to see what you've posted in response to something I intended to correct. That's just the nature of the beast. Best advice would be to let me have more time to look over my posts, to make sure that I'm really satisfied with them. If you see that I've just posted something, you could let more time lapse before responding. Otherwise, the condition will remain.
Yes, we were both posting. I pointed that out in my post. The core of what I was saying is valid, but the instance is my mistake. :up: For some reason I though you edited it this afternoon (PM) not 10 minutes after the OP (AM). So, Yes, my mistake. :up:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shingoshi
And once again. There's nothing theoretical about injectors and their operation. I don't need to prove them to you or anyone else. That's already been done by several industries which use them on a daily and constant basis. So stop calling something that's reality, theory. You would be better off just to say you don't understand how they work. Because if you did understand how they work, you would stop calling them theories.
Since nearly 40 minutes have passed since I saw this being posted, I should be safe.
I understand how they work from another hobby, different application. The theory part comes in that they will operate and provide the result that you are seeking in your application. It's not just about the venturi's, it's about making the whole thing work--by your design.
The challenge statement was not about the venturi's specifically. It was about any of the components. Venturi, pump, res's, plumbing, whatever. This is your grand theory. Your big puzzle, so put the pieces together and show us the picture. :up: Not a big deal. You've been working on this for what? 2yrs now?
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2 Attachment(s)
To give a perspective of size...
I found this image on the net. I keep looking for better images. I'm currently settled on using one of the two injectors in the 2" nozzle size. This is an image of it.
Just tonight, I came up with an ingenious method for mounting both of my reservoirs and two injectors, ALL on a SINGLE connection. I just had to choose the right part. I'm also hoping that Mazzei actually has transparent versions available for sale. I've seen (demo?) images of them, but don't know if they're for sale. Transparent injectors in operation would be a blast!
Shingoshi
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ugh, to much tech, not enough pictures lol.
i actually read most of it.
cool anyway.
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Your "Mazzei " is just a simple single stage venturi tube using Bernoulli's principles . You need .5 psi (absolute pressure) to boil water @~80F. Even the best venturi tubes won't get you there. There are are a lot of venturi calculators on the web if you want to do the math first before you buy a mazzei that won't boil water. Search under:venturi,venturi tube,aspirator,venturi tube simulation,venturi tube flow calculator.
BTW: water is a refrigerant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shingoshi
If you've read the thread well, you will see that Mazzei Injectors will increase the flow of liquid in your system. There's one model in particular which I think most builders can use without modification to their systems. That model is the #484. It has 1/2" MPT fittings on both the intake and outlet of the injector. The suction port is 1/4" MPT. With those fittings, just about anyone can use this.
So the challenge is to get one, and see how much your temperatures drop as a result of the increased flow through your system. It will increase your flow 5 times over what you have now!
Just search for "Mazzei Injector #484". You could even do a product search for quick results.
MAKE SURE TO USE 1/2" BRAIDED PVC TUBING, AND RADIATOR HOSE CLAMPS!!
Like the kind you would get from Lowe's.
Good Luck!
Shingoshi
Can you explain further how this will work ?
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Thanks!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wdrzal
Your "Mazzei " is just a simple single stage venturi tube using Bernoulli's principles . You need .5 psi (absolute pressure) to boil water @~80F. Even the best venturi tubes won't get you there. There are are a lot of venturi calculators on the web if you want to do the math first before you buy a mazzei that won't boil water. Search under:venturi,venturi tube,aspirator,venturi tube simulation,venturi tube flow calculator.
BTW: water is a refrigerant
Geez! That's good to know. Or bad, if your hopes were for success! But that's ok. One thing's for certain, they will increase the flow of my liquid through the system. But then again, I'm probably going way beyond reason. I do that too often. Guilty as charged...
Shingoshi
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An explanation's in order...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Holst
Can you explain further how this will work ?
I MADE A MAJOR MISTAKE HERE WHICH I AM NOW CORRECTING!
I FORGOT TO SAY WHAT THE PLACEMENT OF THE PUMP SHOULD BE.
Thanks to Holst for catching this mistake!
If you have an injector, you install it in this manner:
1.) Install a Tee connector (by cutting the hose between the pump and the reservoir) in the outlet line leading from your reservoir.
2.) Using the tee connector, splice your coolant line to the pump back together.
The final result should look like this:
RESERVOIR > TEE > PUMP > INJECTOR
The suction from the injector, should come straight from the TEE.
The line from the TEE should bypass the pump. (Hopefully, this corrects my oversight!)
3.) Attach a new hose (long enough to reach the injector) to the branch of the tee connector.
4.) Attach the inline outlet of the tee connector to the inlet of the injector.
5.) Attach the suction port of the injector (somewhere in the middle) to the branch of your tee connector.
6.) Attach the outlet of the injector to the inlet of the cpu(s).
I'm debating whether the line from the reservoir going to the tee connector should be the straight section of the tee, or the branch. The reason is, the injector is going to pull more liquid through the suction port than it's inlet port. The inlet port only provides the initial flow. But all of the power comes from the suction port. So after thinking about this further, the line that leads from the reservoir should be at right angles to the line that leads out to the injector. Because the line going to the suction port should have no restriction on it.
Installation is now completed.
The injector will now suck additional water from the reservoir into the coolant stream, boosting the amount of pressure and volume in the flow.
I hope that fully explains it.
Shingoshi
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Maybe I should have read this first...
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I think you have made a mistake.
Although the injector will suck up some extra water through the tubing it will also add a restriction to the system.
Im not sure what effect this will have on your cooling ability but im 100% sure there will be no increase in flowrate.
The pump is still providing all the pressure differential in the system, all you have done is added an extra restriction.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2527/...c437e903_o.jpg
However...
Your idea of building a vacuum based evaporative cooler is better but using an injector to create the vacuum wont work (as you wont be able to make much of a vacuume using an injector and it will add restriction to your cooling loop)
By using a vacuum you could make a bong cooler more efficient. It may also be possible to use an injector to try and seperate the water vapor out to keep room humidity down (ive not given this much thought so I may be wrong)
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When all else fails, think again!!
I began thinking about creating the equivalent of a MULTIPLE-EFFECT EVAPORATOR:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evapora...ct_evaporators
I was thinking that if one injector alone can't do the job, why not cascade them. I don't know if that's possible, because I don't know how much vacuum a single venturi can generate, to know how many would be required to accomplish this.
I don't know enough about this. I really need to do more checking. However, you really should have looked at this page (or one like it):
http://www.mazzei.net/products/injector_info.htm
Unless I'm missing your point, I think that should explain this better than I could.
Shingoshi
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A picture is worth a thousand words!
Now that I've looked at your diagram, I see a good representation for others to follow. :up: What you're missing is that the fluid passing through the venturi in the injector has it's velocity substantially increased. It is the increase of that velocity that provides the increase in flow. It might seem like some sort of Voodoo. But it really works. :D If you want, you can always use a separate line from the reservoir. Or you can use two reservoirs. :yepp: In either case, you need larger lines to accommodate the flow. ;) That just makes sense. If the flow is restricted, REMOVE THE RESTRICTION.
Shingoshi
Ok! I got smiley happy!
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A picture speaks a thousand words :D
Its worth remembering that you could use a rotary fan to create a much higher vacuum than you can with you venturi's without adding any restriction to the pumping system.
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My apologies!!!
I left out the part of putting the pump BETWEEN tee connection and the injector. That was really a bad oversight on my part.
Sorry for the confusion. I will now edit my previous post to correct it.
Thank you!
Shingoshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shingoshi
Now that I've looked at your diagram, I see a good representation for others to follow. :up: What you're missing is that the fluid passing through the venturi in the injector has it's velocity substantially increased. It is the increase of that velocity that provides the increase in flow. It might seem like some sort of Voodoo. But it really works. :D If you want, you can always use a separate line from the reservoir. Or you can use two reservoirs. :yepp: In either case, you need larger lines to accommodate the flow. ;) That just makes sense. If the flow is restricted, REMOVE THE RESTRICTION.
Shingoshi
Ok! I got smiley happy!
But the restriction IS the injector.
Try thinking about it this way..
The T splits the water from the resevoire into two streams.
Your injector will produce a vacume and suck extra water through the lower pipe.
However it does this by creating a restriction in the upper pipe.
The overall flowrate WILL be reduced when compared to a system without any of this stuff!!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shingoshi
I left out the part of putting the pump BETWEEN tee connection and the injector. That was really a bad oversight on my part.
Sorry for the confusion. I will now edit my previous post to correct it.
Thank you!
Shingoshi
That definately wont work as the pump will push water the wrong way down the injector and back into the inlet of the pump.
Although flowrate through the pump might increase flow through the CPU will decrease.
The water will take the path of least resistance.
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I corrected my mistake.
Please see my correction of the first post on this subject.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...8&postcount=36
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Holst
That definately wont work as the pump will push water the wrong way down the injector and back into the inlet of the pump.
Although flowrate through the pump might increase flow through the CPU will decrease.
The water will take the path of least resistance.
I think my correction now addresses your concern. If not, look at the link for the Mazzei injectors. You may get a better understanding then of how this works. And if I still made a mistake, point it out then.
Shingoshi
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Would you please make another diagram???
Taking into account my corrected instructions. Please show how the pump should be installed in the proper location of the line. The TEE should be between the RESERVOIR and the PUMP. The PUMP should be between the TEE and the INJECTOR.
I'm really sorry for this confusion, and I'm really glad you caught it. And early too, I might add. Very good observation.
Shingoshi
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You need to look at my correction, and how this works...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Holst
That definately wont work as the pump will push water the wrong way down the injector and back into the inlet of the pump.
Although flowrate through the pump might increase flow through the CPU will decrease.
The water will take the path of least resistance.
I think you're still missing the point here:
INJECTORS ONLY DIRECT THEIR FLOW FORWARD (from the outlet), NOT BACKWARD (through the suction port).
The suction port is called that, because it causes suction to exist. The suction port provides no external pressure, and therefore cannot return fluid to the source. You would have to completely BLOCK the flow from the injector's outlet for the injector to stop working. Then and only then would you see backflow. And that's simply not going to happen.
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hot air? I use ice cubes. Nice work on your build Shin. Pics!
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Ice cubes MELT!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Plan.B
hot air? I use ice cubes. Nice work on your build Shin. Pics!
I specifically want a 24/7 system here that runs unattended. No method of cooling other than that provide by the system itself, would be acceptable.
And I don't have pictures, because I keep having to change my design. That's part of the benefit of posting here. Others catch my mistakes, before I've spent money (for parts) on a useless endeavor.
Shingoshi
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that was a joke based upon the title of the thread...
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Now that I've done more reading...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wdrzal
Your "Mazzei " is just a simple single stage venturi tube using Bernoulli's principles . You need .5 psi (absolute pressure) to boil water @~80F. Even the best venturi tubes won't get you there. There are are a lot of venturi calculators on the web if you want to do the math first before you buy a mazzei that won't boil water. Search under:venturi,venturi tube,aspirator,venturi tube simulation,venturi tube flow calculator.
BTW: water is a refrigerant
Would it be possible to put another form of vacuum device between the reservoirs and the Mazzei injectors? If I could find some kind of vacuum pump which can be driven by the excessive flow of fluid coming from the injector, that vacuum pump would then do the real work. The Mazzei injectors produce such an excessive flow for this system, that they really beg for something to do with that flow. Granted, they don't produce hydraulic pressures. But something should be able to be done with that flow to contribute to the overall design.
The first-stage vacuum device(s) would create the vacuum necessary for boiling the water. The injector then would only have to move that vapor into the fluid stream.
Shingoshi
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I missed it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Plan.B
that was a joke based upon the title of the thread...
I was looking at your comment literally. I'm laughing now, if that's any consolation! :up:
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
Shingoshi
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I have another idea...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shingoshi
I think you're still missing the point here:
INJECTORS ONLY DIRECT THEIR FLOW FORWARD (from the outlet), NOT BACKWARD (through the suction port).
The suction port is called that, because it causes suction to exist. The suction port provides no external pressure, and therefore cannot return fluid to the source. You would have to completely BLOCK the flow from the injector's outlet for the injector to stop working. Then and only then would you see backflow. And that's simply not going to happen.
You keep looking at the injector as the main focus of the system...
You need to look at the entire system and work out the pressure drops.
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Does this make anymore sense?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Holst
You keep looking at the injector as the main focus of the system...
You need to look at the entire system and work out the pressure drops.
I believe the pressure will drop shortly after the liquid leaves the injector. So just how much of a pressure drop do you want? It will drop again after leaving the cpus.
Shingoshi
This is an old post. I thought I had already submitted it. I just found it still open. So I'm sending it now. Someone may have already posted, while this was sitting around.
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Duplicated post to stop off-topic discussion elsewhere...
I went to the ScienceMadness.org site to get specific information on the performance of injectors. This is the last post placed there:
Quote:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/v...rch&pid=158160
First, are you sure the case you picked will stand the negative pressure? Firgure out how much force will be on it under vacuum.
This case is nothing more than a miniature clean-room, in which the components will operate. The coolant-loop is completely closed. If there were any leaks into the cavity of the case, the process would stop. And, if the vacuum system isn't strong enough to boil water, how would it have enough power to impact the structure of the case?
Second, yes you can stack Venturis in series with the 'downstream' one being larger than the upstream one as it has to handle the full flow of the upstream.
I almost didn't understand you here. But now I realize by upstream, you mean the pump. And by downstream, you mean the outlet of the injector. This is precisely how the design is configured
Before going any further, you should analyse the requirements. Don't think about the liquid you will use, you will calculate what it's properties need to be.
How much heat is being generate, and what is the target temperature. How do you plan to dump the heat; remember that pumps will add heat to the system, and dry heat exchanges can not cool below ambient temperature.
This system will have a maximum cpu count of 12 in the present configuration. Given 75 Watts per processor, the load will greater than 900 Watts when the cooling system is included. The cooling system will produce some heat. Though I'm not sure yet how much. I intend to simply provide the largest cooling system to handle any possible load.
So you end up with a heat source of X watts that you want to keep at temperature Y while rejecting that heat into a sink of temperature Y. This lets you calculate the thermal impedance, and the size of the heat sink if you are rejecting heat into the ambient air - heat sink vendors should show you how to calculate that.
Venturis using liquids will give you no lower vacuum than the vapour pressure of the liquid at its working temperature.
Shingoshi
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A warm hand extended...
I am pleased to say that I spoke with Celia Mazzei this evening about the Mazzei pumps. Taking her suggestions into account, I am now looking over some of the specifics that need to be dealt with. I now need to consider the flow rate of the pump I intend to use, and possibly change it if I need to. I think more than anything else, I may need a pump that not only delivers high flow rates, but high pressure as well.
The injector that she has suggested, is the Model 1584. It has a 1.5" intake and outlet, with a 3/4" suction. She actually took the time to look online at the specifications for the pump I specified, and made her suggestion based on it. But as has been mentioned here in this thread, injectors are poor candidates for creating vacuums. While Celia discourages using the injectors in series, she did acknowledge my alternate idea of running them in parallel as valid.
I've just sent off another email to Mazzei asking if they have better suggestions regarding the selection of pumps for the pressures their injectors are capable of. We'll see.
Hey! Friday I get my case. Go Pelican!
Shingoshi
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2 Attachment(s)
Even if this amounts to be nothing more than cosmetics...
You'd have to admit having two very large flasks in your system with rotating fluid under UV light would be extreme!
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/vtxbottle.htm
Just visualize that vortex happening inside of the reservoir below!
With UV for added effect...
Shingoshi
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Meandering through another fluid of information...
My last posting led me off on yet another diversion. I began wondering whether a vortex as pictured above could be made to behave as a cork-screw. So I searched for corkscrew vortex. The proper term seems to be helical vortex. The intuition here being that if another point of drainage were introduced in close relative proximity to the main drain point, the orientation of the primary vortex would be influenced by the second point of exit. The same may apply to multiple points of drainage symmetrically placed in close proximity to each other. This should be apparent as a form of deflection on the spin of the primary vortex from the expected radius.
I've found some information that supports this assumption. But most of the data is contained in patent documents and related matter which require subscriptions to obtain. But I think I have a simple method for the observation of a helical vortex in my application here. So I'm going to investigate a means to do this, as it will assist in the mixing of fluid in the reservoirs, allowing for greater heat transfer to any cooling method at work here.
To visualize this, think of a single strand (not both pairs) of DNA in how it moves around a common radius.
Shingoshi
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A Narrative Diagram
I'm considering this Shertech CHMNA56T for my pump:
http://www.deindustrial.com/v/vspfil...HMNA56T-2T.jpg
Part No. 0474056
Vendor No. CHMNA56T
Horsepower 2
Voltage 115 / 230
Flow Rate 96 gpm
Maximum Working Pressure 91 Ft. Head
Height 7-1/2"
Length 14-7/8"
Material Noryl
Weight 39 lb
Performance - Standard Models (Water at 70˚)
--------------------------------------------
Model CHMNA5X
HP** 2
GPM of Water at Total Head in Feet*
10 96
20 89
30 83
40 77
50 68
60 58
70 47
80 31
Max Head* 91
(Note: “X” refers to the motor supplied on the pump head. Pump performance is based on pump head, not the motor.)
Based on the (anticipated) number of processors in this system,
I think will be the best pump I could use.
Calculating the expense and performance of this pump against supporting five motherboards, and the cost of building comparable individual cooling-loops and cases for each, the efficiency of this build becomes immediately apparent.
--------------------------------------------
Let's start with the orientation of the case in which these parts will fit. The case will be in a vertical position (standing against a wall) so that the inside of the top (back)* is facing the user, with the bottom (front)* removed.
* This case was meant to lay flat. So the bottom and top sections in a vertical orientation become the back and front sections. I originally intended to have the case simply tipped upward, with the bottom of the case (with it's wheels) facing the user. That would allow for easy movement from one location to another, by simply tipping the case towards you to roll it. But now that I've looked at the need to have a vertically oriented radiator for this build, I'm considering reversing this. So that the wheels would be facing the wall against which it is stood.
The pump will be mounted lengthwise along the bottom. Having the pump head to the left, and the motor towards the right. This will have the outlet of the pump pointing in the vertical. Mounted directly to the pump's outlet will be the 2083X injector (also in vertical orientation).
Drilled and mounted into the bottom of each reservoir will be a banjo bulkhead fittings. On the inside (reservoir) fitting will be mounted a nozzle. On the outside bottom of each reservoir will be the fittings to attach them inline (by one tee and one elbow) and will drain down into the suction of the injector. I'm planning on using a cone with three ports in it allowing for what I hope will be helical vortex.
A vortex in which that twisting stream of liquid flows to drain, will be modified somewhat to look like a corkscrew. This hopefully will happen due to the increased forces pulling the walls of the vortex off-center and downward, causing it to compress. So instead of being the near vertical column we expect, it should look more like a spring. Though the degree of compression in that helical vortex will likely vary.
What will happen is that the turbulent movement of liquid will cause more mixing and thus transfer of heat to the cooling process applied to this reservoir. This will happen because the vortex stream will move into regions it would not have otherwise entered. So while it will be very pretty to look at, it will also be very functional as well.
This is ironic. It could be that the computer which is meant to be a computational environment, becomes the target of it's own analysis.
Shingoshi
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I have my case for success!
So it finally arrived. It was probably the last delivery of the day. But I got it!
I'm just taking the time now to assess what all I can do with it, and how and where I will place things inside of it. While being large, it's still is going to be a very tight squeeze to get everything inside, while being able to service any parts freely. But I'll get it done. Now, it's just a matter of appreciating this one step.
Shingoshi
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You really need to look into thermofluid science. The system you are describing breaks the laws of thermodynamics if it actually lowered the temperature of the working fluid. If you consider your entire setup (pump, fittings, reservoir, ect.) a system, you have work input (work done by the pump to the fluid) with no energy leaving the system (the boiled liquid stays inside the closed loop). If anything, your liquid will actually gain heat from the energy input by the pump. Also, your not going to lower the pressure enough to boil water with a venturi nozzle.
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Some errors already detected...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
msull
You really need to look into thermofluid science. The system you are describing breaks the laws of thermodynamics if it actually lowered the temperature of the working fluid.
This was something that plagued me. I realized that I would have to remove the heat, but wasn't sure about the placement of radiators to accomplish this.
If you consider your entire setup (pump, fittings, reservoir, ect.) a system, you have work input (work done by the pump to the fluid) with no energy leaving the system (the boiled liquid stays inside the closed loop).
If anything, your liquid will actually gain heat from the energy input by the pump. Also, your not going to lower the pressure enough to boil water with a venturi nozzle.
The venturi issue came up elsewhere, having it already shot down on the ScienceMadness site for the same reason as you've stated. But then, I've wondered about not using water as the base liquid, and using a liquid more volatile, like ethanol.
This was something that I realized also. It's inferred from the statement above. So I accept this as well. Correct me here. I would have to remove the heat from the liquid that evaporated, right? But since I would be drawing that liquid back into the main flow, I would have to cool the main flow after the point where the liquid entered it. None of this seems practical in the long run. Which is why I've pretty much given up on it. Simply because it would require too much space in the confines of my larger project.
So thanks for the feedback. I already began questioning how this could possibly work.
Shingoshi
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1 Attachment(s)
What it really sounds like you are trying to do is make a vapor compression refrigeration cycle (what your A/C unit and refrigerator use). You should look in the phase change forum after doing some background reading.
