installing new UPS for my office and needs electrical work...

I have no idea how to approach an electrician about this...

here is the units spec sheet:
http://www.apc.com/products/resource...=SUA3000RMXL3U

I think I just need a 30amp plug so I can use this... but im not exactly sure... all i know is we have a a bunch of office PCs and some other networking equipment all running well on an old breaker that I think also is supporting an alarm system among other things.

So do I just need a new plug to install the UPS or do I need a upgrade on the breaker or something else?

I also dont want to pick the wrong electrician so please advise of any tips and/or suggestions when selecting an electrician.

this UPS will be supporting a new payroll server and login system for my employees and in the future another server for our EMR (Electronic Medical Records) system.

and I might add an upgraded security system for my office and this will include a PoE (Power Over Ethernet) based Camera Security system.

edit: I am also planning to add a Printer and connect it to the server room so I can print things remotely. This system will be on 24/7

also the network switch I am going to use to support most of this is a HP Procurve 3500 series (I forget which model it is but its listed here - http://www.procurve.com/products/swi...s/overview.htm )

please help me with this.

thanks in advance!

Yeah your pretty much spot on.
We use 32amp circuit independant circuit(for each APC 3000RM) you should probably do the same, running this thing off your current breaker will either be a fire hazard or it will trip constantly.

Do not connect the printer though, use a standard surge protector instead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rogard

Yeah your pretty much spot on.
We use 32amp circuit independant circuit(for each APC 3000RM) you should probably do the same, running this thing off your current breaker will either be a fire hazard or it will trip constantly.

Do not connect the printer though, use a standard surge protector instead.

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u guys run 110v there? or 220v?

220v

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rogard

Yeah your pretty much spot on.
We use 32amp circuit independant circuit(for each APC 3000RM) you should probably do the same, running this thing off your current breaker will either be a fire hazard or it will trip constantly.

Do not connect the printer though, use a standard surge protector instead.

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wait wait wait.... why 32amp circuit ???

I thought the specs show this UPS as a 30amp ?

But when I ask my electrician to install a 30amp or 32amp power outlet (dedicated? 30/32-110v?), do I simply say "Can you add a high powered 30/32amp-110v outlet which will be used for this UPS here that requires a "NEMA L5-30P" input connection (referring to the spec sheet now and showing him the drawing of the plug schematics ... http://www.apc.com/resource/images/conn_L5-30P_sm.gif) ?"

or is that not right?

im not very knowledgable when it comes to electricity lol...

so please help me out here..... my local home depot told me Ill need "Wire 12" to run from the circuit breaker to the desired location where the outlet would need to be installed for the UPS. I guess "Wire 12" is heavy duty for this kind of power requirement?

thanks again!

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Originally Posted by hecktic

wait wait wait.... why 32amp circuit ???

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Because that poster is in the UK. Your plug in North American.

An electrician need only see that plug or its part number (NEMA L5-30) to know exactly what is required.

Wire 12 probably meant 12 AWG wire - which is only 20 amp wire (AWG - American wire gauge). Ignore the salesman. Plug and receptacle define how thick wire must be and the circuit breaker size.

Your electrician will run a new dedicated circuit to a new NEMA 5-30 receptacle. And will install a new 30 amp circuit breaker.

You are running all equipment from that UPS (all must be nearby the UPS) for battery backup (uninterrupted) power. It is not a surge protector. If you need surge protection (and everyone does), then the only effective solution must be installed in the breaker box. And breaker box earthing must be upgraded to both meet and exceed post 1990 code requirements.

Earthing (not a protector) is what actually does protection. Nothing adjacent to electronics is effective surge protection.

View 880 joules in your APC spec. That means only 290 and never more than 585 joules do protection. That means hundreds of joules will magically absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? Of course not. That means even an APC needs protection provide by one 'whole house' protector and earthing in the breaker box. Superior protection that is for everything in the building - not just that one circuit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westom

Because that poster is in the UK. Your plug in North American.

An electrician need only see that plug or its part number (NEMA L5-30) to know exactly what is required.

Wire 12 probably meant 12 AWG wire - which is only 20 amp wire (AWG - American wire gauge). Ignore the salesman. Plug and receptacle define how thick wire must be and the circuit breaker size.

Your electrician will run a new dedicated circuit to a new NEMA 5-30 receptacle. And will install a new 30 amp circuit breaker.

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So as far as the new breaker or upgrade to current breaker, is that what I will be telling the electrician?... "to install a new NEMA 5-30 receptacle and a new 30 amp circuit breaker for this UPS" ?

Sometimes these local companies tell you need one thing but then do something else so I want to be sure of what I need to have before I contact the electrician and I want to be sure of what he will be required to do so he doesnt give me some bogus sales pitch of stuff I dont need and ends up charging me more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westom

You are running all equipment from that UPS (all must be nearby the UPS) for battery backup (uninterrupted) power. It is not a surge protector. If you need surge protection (and everyone does), then the only effective solution must be installed in the breaker box. And breaker box earthing must be upgraded to both meet and exceed post 1990 code requirements.

Earthing (not a protector) is what actually does protection. Nothing adjacent to electronics is effective surge protection.

View 880 joules in your APC spec. That means only 290 and never more than 585 joules do protection. That means hundreds of joules will magically absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? Of course not. That means even an APC needs protection provide by one 'whole house' protector and earthing in the breaker box. Superior protection that is for everything in the building - not just that one circuit.

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oh yeah that is a good point.. so the breaker box must have built-in surge protection then to cover the UPS and whatever else will be connected to it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hecktic

So as far as the new breaker or upgrade to current breaker, is that what I will be telling the electrician?... "to install a new NEMA 5-30 receptacle and a new 30 amp circuit breaker for this UPS" ?

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That plug defines what he must install. Code says what must connect to that receptacle.

'Whole house' protector means everything in the building is protected - furnace, air conditioner, all electronics, stove, any GFCI receptacles, and even smoke detector. The point. Every protector is only as effective as its earth ground. To better protect everything, an earth ground connection from the breaker box and protector must be shorter and must be the best earth ground for that facility/building.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westom

That plug defines what he must install. Code says what must connect to that receptacle.

'Whole house' protector means everything in the building is protected - furnace, air conditioner, all electronics, stove, any GFCI receptacles, and even smoke detector. The point. Every protector is only as effective as its earth ground. To better protect everything, an earth ground connection from the breaker box and protector must be shorter and must be the best earth ground for that facility/building.

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So in terms of just my suite inside this 3 story office building with maybe 50 other suites (or less), I have no control over the quality of the earth ground connection coming into my breaker box? or do I?

because I spoke to two different companies that offer electrical work and one said replacing a whole breaker box or upgrading one might be very expensive compared to just added a dedicated line into a current breaker box... iduno what to make of this....

anyways I have both companies coming out to the site tomorrow and I am going to show them the UPS and the room where all of my server equipment and other things are going to go which is also where the UPS will be...

do you have any suggestions or anything else you want to tell me that I should ask or make note of tomorrow when they come out to check the work site area?

I think all I need to worry about for now is that the electrician has proper permits and licensing to do any electrical work.

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Originally Posted by hecktic

So in terms of just my suite inside this 3 story office building with maybe 50 other suites (or less), I have no control over the quality of the earth ground connection coming into my breaker box? or do I?

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If your breaker box, then only you are responsible for installing sufficient earthing. Post 1990 code 'lists' what and how earth ground must be installed. For example, listed are only electrodes that meet the definition of earthing.

To exceed code (for protection), that ground wire must be short (ie 'less than 10 feet'), no sharp wire bends, separated from other non-ground wires, and not be inside any metallic conduit. Also all other surge protection (ie the telco installed for free 'whole house' protector) must also make a short connect to the same earthing electrode - the single point earth ground. And yes, all telco lines already have a protector installed for free. But as effective as the earth ground that only you provide. Examples of what is necessary to exceed code.

Nothing here says anything about changing a breaker box. A new 30 amp breaker simply snaps into an open slot in the breaker box. The 'whole house' connector typically attaches to the box's side. A picture of what it looks like:
http://www.smarthome.com/4870.HTML

A Cutler-Hammer version sells in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50.

'Whole house' protector has one important requirement: rated 50,000+ amps. This because protectors must conduct even direct lightning strikes harmlessly to earth. Even the protector must not fail. A lightning strike is typically 20,000 amps.

Another concern is distance from that UPS to each appliance. You cannot (in many jurisdictions - often defined by local fire codes) run extension cords about the room. That UPS means local equipment is typically six feet from the UPS.

The other alternative is a superior UPS located at the breaker box to power a dedicated circuit. Wall receptacles on that one circuit are powered through a service entrance UPS. Done this way when various equipment is widely separated throughout the building. This UPS typically cost more since even battery life expectancy is significantly longer - more than 3 years.

Well as far as the building grounding is concerned, all I know is another office suite adjacent to mine is used by a radiologist and he has some intense multi-million dollar x-ray type machines with some special box outside near our parking lot to provide proper electric feeds into his suites.

SO... the building I think MUST have some higher than average grade earthing protection for the building itself.... at least I would believe so.

The building also has its own CCTV system with multiple commercial grade cameras in and outside of the building and throughout the parking lot..... not to mention our building is just blocks away from the local hospital which I am sure has invested heavily into advanced electrical work underground which our building probably I would guess piggy-backs off of..... or in other words what I am saying is that our building should have proper earthing protection.... the question is whether or not my specific suite is making use of this... that I do not know.

Is there any way for the electrician to find out the quality of the current earthing protection just by looking at the current breaker box?

What I can tell you right now is that my office suite has 3 commercial grade Copy/Fax machines, 4 workstation PCs, some cisco networking equipment including an aDSL modem, and one printer, and also an old alarm system from maybe 10yrs ago that is NOT digital based.

What we plan to add now is a payroll server (including integrated digital employee time clock system), PoE (Power over Ethernet) networking equipment with power supply (commercial grade HP brand "ProCurve" model), PoE Cameras, and a couple commercial grade scanners for use with EMR (Electronic-Medical Record) systems.

The server room housing the UPS/battery backup will be installed inside a rack-mount cage and should have equipment connected directly to it no less than maybe 6 feet (probably 4 feet though)... like your standard Power cord for a server and then a power adapter for the employee time clock and also if its feasible we will plug the PoE switch into the UPS directly for power to be then supplied to the PoE switch power supply which will then supply power to the half dozen or so cameras throughout the office via PoE delivery method. I have to check with the camera specs and with the electrician to see if this will work or not... I think 27000watts should be plenty for all of the things I mentioned but I will ask him just to be sure.

But we might use a different room than we anticipated due to possible ventilation issues with the current room housing the current breaker box.... so this is why the electrician told me that installing a whole new breaker in the other room that has proper ventilation might be a better option.

IF we decide to go that route and install a brand new breaker (I know its expensive but..), then what do I need to know before I accept this option. Do I need to be aware of anything that the electrician might try and oversell me or undersell me in terms of the quality of the breaker box he proposes to install? Do I need to meet any kind of requirements for the new room or prep the room for the new breaker box? (one of the electricians I spoke to said it was as simple as just taking the electrical feed out of the wall in the new room and just attaching the breaker box to it... is that true? is it a simple process like that?)

Anyways let me know... I appreciate the help very much.

Feel free to post something Rogard... I also as always appreciate your help.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hecktic

SO... the building I think MUST have some higher than average grade earthing protection for the building itself.... at least I would believe so.

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Not relevant. Your earth ground must be within feet of the breaker box. And is visually inspected. Every main breaker box (the one adjacent to utility power meters) must have its own earth ground. You have one. Other buildings have their own.

Ground first meets code - only for human safety. And then upgraded for surge protection (that many electricians do not understand). For example, must also be shorter (ie 'less than 10 feet'), routed without sharp wire bends, separate from other non-ground wires, not inside metallic conduit, and all grounds (ie one from the telco installed 'whole house' protector) meet at the same earthing electrode. If not grasping this, then print it and recite it to him word for word.

All homeowners should have something equivalent if transistors are in the building.

Any building can have no earth ground and all electrical devices will work normally. This is actually a problem in older buildings where homeowners do not appreciate why that ground wire was important. Earthing has one purpose in the code: human safety. And other functions not defined by code such as to make a 'whole house' protector effective: transistor safety. Latter is protection from events that occur maybe once every seven years.

How much power does your UPS need? Every human who plugs appliances into a wall should know how to do this. Read a label where its power cord attaches to the box. Watts are listed. Sum up all the watts. That number should be same or less than the watts listed for the UPS. Simple arithmetic.

Then if a human makes a mistake, an emergency backup protection system (a circuit breaker) trips.

You did not mention 'server room' previously. You know how many watts are consumed. That defines the ventilation / air conditioning also required for that room. Numbers that the HVAC guy can quickly calculate once you know total wattage.

2700 watts? Not 27,000 watts.

How serious to be significantly changes these answers. For example, more reliable systems mean a raised computer floor, grounded (bonded) to the only box that provides all power in the room. That in turn connects to the main power box that is earthed and that contains a 'whole house' protector. Cooling blows under the floor to flow up through the racks. In one room that did this, the copy machine was working happy even after 1 million copies.

Everything in the room is powered and safety grounded only to that room's new box. And all wires into the room enter at one location. All wires between boxes route as a group. This is discussed in the second half of an IEEE paper from Montandon and Rubinstein in Nov 1998 entitled "Some Observations on the Protection of Buildings against the Induced Effects of Lightning.

Probably better to do these additional things if convenient.

Important is total wattages for both sufficient electric power and for sufficient ventilation (including overhead lights if relevant). For current demands and for estimated future needs. For example, if installing a distribution box in a dedicated room, some vacant slots should exist for future circuits.

All depends on how much you want to do / want to spend. And (of course) what the electrician and HVAC guy might recommend.

There is a purpose to having equipment that must be secure to be in a secure room, with sufficient ventilation, and a reliable power circuit.

Also many power hungry devices (ie printer) need not be on battery backup circuits. But data storage (and maybe data access - ie Cisco routers) and critical communication equipment (ie alarm systems) should have battery backup.

All depends on how much you need. What your security and access requirements are.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westom

Not relevant. Your earth ground must be within feet of the breaker box. And is visually inspected. Every main breaker box (the one adjacent to utility power meters) must have its own earth ground. You have one. Other buildings have their own.

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Got it. Now exactly how many feet because I have this option as I discussed this with the electrician today.

We actually talked about it after I mentioned the 12 Wire thing from earlier in this thread and the electrician said he would probably use a Wire 8 if the current breaker was just to get an upgrade to accommodate the new dedicated 30amp line for the UPS. BUT... when I mentioned the new physical room across from the one that currently houses the current breaker box then he said he might use a Wire 10 and then after inspecting the ceiling accessibility options he said it might just be better to install a new breaker box or 2nd breaker box in the new room that has the existing ventilation system. Im going to take some pictures of all this and post it soon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westom

Ground first meets code - only for human safety. And then upgraded for surge protection (that many electricians do not understand). For example, must also be shorter (ie 'less than 10 feet'), routed without sharp wire bends, separate from other non-ground wires, not inside metallic conduit, and all grounds (ie one from the telco installed 'whole house' protector) meet at the same earthing electrode. If not grasping this, then print it and recite it to him word for word.

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Yeah I think I get the concept here, its just hard to explain it to the electrician as I tried to do so today. And your talking about the wire for both grounding and surge protection within the breaker box right?

He mentioned Cutler but I dont think it was the same thing you were talking about...

So shorter distance from breaker box to the 30amp outlet, I take is the best way to ensure optimal grounding aside from what you already mentioned about no sharp wire bends and separating the ground from the rest and NOT using metallic conduit..... this is something the electrician I believe missed today when he told me about the idea of running the 30amp outlet in the new room to the current breaker box room thus using the ceiling and the metallic conduit with bends etc.

So aside from just reading that part word for word to him, how else can I convince or make him understand why this is important?

Also the idea earlier you mentioned:

Quote:

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The other alternative is a superior UPS located at the breaker box to power a dedicated circuit. Wall receptacles on that one circuit are powered through a service entrance UPS. Done this way when various equipment is widely separated throughout the building. This UPS typically cost more since even battery life expectancy is significantly longer - more than 3 years.

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I was thinking about relocating all of our workstation towers into the server room and running maybe a 'KVM' switch or even separate lines for keyboard, mouse, and video out of the server room into area where the workstations are at now. The reason for this is because each workstation at the moment is connected to its own battery backup/mini-UPS and the maintenance of these units is annoying and gets expensive over time.

IF the server room gets a new breaker with 8 to 12 outlets as I was told today then I am going to do this but if the server room just gets the 30amp outlet and no breaker then I will just move the workstation towers into the server room and plug them into the UPS directly instead of the wall outlets because I don't think our usage in terms of Watts will ever come close to 2,700 watts (and I am in the process of measuring usage of all our equipment with a P4400 KILL A WATT by P3 - http://www.p3international.com/produ.../P4400-CE.html )

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westom

All homeowners should have something equivalent if transistors are in the building.

Any building can have no earth ground and all electrical devices will work normally. This is actually a problem in older buildings where homeowners do not appreciate why that ground wire was important. Earthing has one purpose in the code: human safety. And other functions not defined by code such as to make a 'whole house' protector effective: transistor safety. Latter is protection from events that occur maybe once every seven years.

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No I agree... in fact the electrician talked about even installing "grounding rods" that physically are drilled into the ground and provide an additional grounding protection... it sounds good in theory but does this or is this usually something used today or is this something old school from many years ago???

The electrician said he installed these in a box mode around large generators many years ago.

He said we could add these also into the server room to provide added protection to deter any surge spikes that pass through a surge protector..... what do you think?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westom

How much power does your UPS need? Every human who plugs appliances into a wall should know how to do this. Read a label where its power cord attaches to the box. Watts are listed. Sum up all the watts. That number should be same or less than the watts listed for the UPS. Simple arithmetic.

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Yes Im in the process of doing this using my Kill-a-watt and will have precise numbers for you soon. The electrician also wanted this information today ha.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westom

Then if a human makes a mistake, an emergency backup protection system (a circuit breaker) trips.

You did not mention 'server room' previously. You know how many watts are consumed. That defines the ventilation / air conditioning also required for that room. Numbers that the HVAC guy can quickly calculate once you know total wattage.

2700 watts? Not 27,000 watts.

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I don't anticipate to go over 2,700 watts but I will get the exact numbers and tell you soon. The server room we have at the moment that is in plans to be used for this purpose is not too cold but just enough I think... but I will run the numbers and post it here soon.

But regardless of the numbers, so I need to call an HVAC specialist or can I just play with the digital thermostat and just leave the server room extra cool when I close the office (which is usually after 5/6ish pm... opens in morning around 8/9am)

Yeah sorry I didnt mention server room before, but think of it more like a data closet just with a enough physical space to act like a server room.... and really our actual server which will be in this room is probably going to be a tower and not a blade server but if the existing cooling can handle the heat then we may choose a blade server but I doubt it.... we already have a payroll servers equipment and its all setup for a tower server. We will have a rack mount cage but it will be just enough in size to accommodate the 3U APC UPS I posted earlier.

If its cost effective (and it may very well be) then we will install a full blown rack mount cage that you would see a hospital data room that includes a blower fan or something of that magnitude on the top or bottom or even sides of the rack mount cage..... the server will be locked at all times and only I and the physician in charge of the office will have access to this room via biometric lock and maybe also a traditional key locking door knob.

Ever since the EMR systems (Electronic-Medical Records System) revolution began our need for a data room/server room has been growing so maybe its a good idea to plan ahead now for the future especially since there are literally thousands of records that will be fed into our new EMR system soon. (Our conversion started just over a year ago but the demand and growth rate is so much that we need more efficient methods from all angles including billing and not just the record-keeping side.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westom

How serious to be significantly changes these answers. For example, more reliable systems mean a raised computer floor, grounded (bonded) to the only box that provides all power in the room. That in turn connects to the main power box that is earthed and that contains a 'whole house' protector. Cooling blows under the floor to flow up through the racks. In one room that did this, the copy machine was working happy even after 1 million copies.

Everything in the room is powered and safety grounded only to that room's new box. And all wires into the room enter at one location. All wires between boxes route as a group. This is discussed in the second half of an IEEE paper from Montandon and Rubinstein in Nov 1998 entitled "Some Observations on the Protection of Buildings against the Induced Effects of Lightning.

Probably better to do these additional things if convenient.

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Well we aren't running a data center by any means although you could say it is a mini-me version of one... and I don't consider a server closet/data room a real data center but anything that wont tear open the floor that will add reliability and performance, then sure why not.

I wonder if I should show the electrician a copy of that IEEE paper...

The electrician did ask to see the meter for the building since we didn't have a meter for our individual office suite and I could not find it anywhere outside of the building so he said it might be in a closet room inside the building that will surely have a key entry access to it... ...but I told him our rent for the office space includes electricity and he said then maybe the whole building utilizes one meter instead of multiple meters for each office....my question to you is, what will seeing the meter do if anything? provide useful information to the electrician?

I showed him a special transformer outside used by our neighbors in the other office suite I mentioned to you earlier -the radiologist who has the special imagery x-ray machines that are worth multi-million dollars and the reaction to this the electrician said "there has to be hundreds of thousands of volts coming into the entire building possibly throwing small surges into your office suite since its next to the one with all that x-ray machine equipment"

So we went on to discuss surge protection and grounding methods and I asked him if we just moved our office to a farther one away from this radiologist with this huge transformer outside of the building (since it sits right outside of our office suite...literally right next to the wall outside of our office suite) and he said it wouldn't matter because its probably effecting all the offices in the building. Ill take some pictures of this transformer and Ill post them but what do you make of this?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westom

Important is total wattages for both sufficient electric power and for sufficient ventilation (including overhead lights if relevant). For current demands and for estimated future needs. For example, if installing a distribution box in a dedicated room, some vacant slots should exist for future circuits.

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Yes the electrician said if we decided to go with a brand new breaker for the server room and NOT run just a 30amp line into the room that he would install a 60amp capable breaker with multiple outlets in the room... at first I thought that was a crazy idea since we don't need that much power but then I realized he was talking about for future needs and he did mention future needs but I wasn't really following him at the time he was talking about this....

So my question is, is too much power dangerous for a room that will be locked up most of the day with no one to check up on it physically? I say physically because I will not personally be there to check up on it daily however I plan to install a PoE Surveillance Camera inside the server room with camera control functions to view the entire room OR multiple cameras at different angles. Will this be enough or will we need like an on-call emergency contact to service something in the event of malfunction or possible failure? I mean I know the electrician company claims 24-hour on-call service for emergency but still what can we do to lessen the need to utilize that 24-hour on call service provided by the electrician company.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westom

All depends on how much you want to do / want to spend. And (of course) what the electrician and HVAC guy might recommend.

There is a purpose to having equipment that must be secure to be in a secure room, with sufficient ventilation, and a reliable power circuit.

Also many power hungry devices (ie printer) need not be on battery backup circuits. But data storage (and maybe data access - ie Cisco routers) and critical communication equipment (ie alarm systems) should have battery backup.

All depends on how much you need. What your security and access requirements are.

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Yeah I actually realized this today that only data and equipment used to access vital data needs Battery Backup.... but you know the UPS we have I believe actually has non-battery backup enabled output or outlet connections in addition to those for battery backup AND UPS....
in other words we can use some of the outlets on the battery backup for standard needs and then the others for battery backup purposes.... I have to double check this but I think our APC UPS features these functions.

So if that is not the case, then yeah I will leave the printers out and just plug in the data and data communication equipment.

hmm by the way... isn't this whole thing about surge protection at the breaker point called "surge suppression"

Glad to see Westom is helping you out with all the US eletrical stuff, I was about to go on about IP44 connectors :)

Anyway the only thing I really have to add is remember its 3000VA not 3000W.(but that shouldnt be a problem as you are no where near that atm)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hecktic

Got it. Now exactly how many feet because I have this option as I discussed this with the electrician today.

We actually talked about it after I mentioned the 12 Wire thing from earlier in this thread and the electrician said he would probably use a Wire 8 if the current breaker was just to get an upgrade to accommodate the new dedicated 30amp line for the UPS. BUT... when I mentioned the new physical room across from the one that currently houses the current breaker box then he said he might use a Wire 10 and then after inspecting the ceiling accessibility options he said it might just be better to install a new breaker box or 2nd breaker box in the new room that has the existing ventilation system. Im going to take some pictures of all this and post it soon. ...

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Earth ground electrode should connect short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to tha main breaker box. And that ground wire should not be in conduit. That ground wire has no relationship to the other wire that would go to the server room. If you choose to install everything in a server room, then it is easier to run one wire to a distribution box in that room. Then power various circuits from that distribution box.

10 AWG would be for a 30 amp circuit. 8 AWG is simply the next thicker wire - a better conductor. Plugs define how much current (amps) that wire must provide. Code then tells the electrician how thick that wire must be. You need not worry about wire thickness; only about how much current (power) is needed.

The wire from main breaker box to the room will probably be in conduit. Code defines that for safety reasons. That conduit not to be confused with an earth ground wire that will be a bare, quarter inch, copper wire and not in conduit. That ground wire only connects to the main breaker box that also has the protector. The 30 amp circuit is one cable (conduit) from main breaker box to server room. The earth ground wire is a different single and bare wire that goes from main breaker box to earth. This bare wire is the one that must be short, no sharp bends, etc to the earth ground rod(s).

'Whole house' protectors are made by many well respected companies such as Siemsn, Square D, Cutler-Hammer, Intermatic, Leviton, and General Electric. These companies also make most other parts found in or that connect to breaker boxes. For example, Cutler-Hammer (Eaton) also makes breaker boxes and circuit breakers. A 'whole house' protector is just another part made by all these companies. Most important number for a 'whole house' protector is about 50,000 amps or higher. Most important number for the earth ground to that breaker box - connection to earth must be as short as 'practicable' (a word the code loves to use). And as you said, the protector is only in the mains breaker box so that surges can be connected as short as possible to earth.

And yes, more earth ground rods mean the 'whole house' protector is even better. Anything that makes the single point ground more conductive means the 'whole hosue' protector will divert even more surge energy harmless into earth. Faciltiies that require even more reliable protection literally surround the building with a buried bare copper wire. Even better protection - because protection is always about the quality of that earthing. New homes should have protection installed when the footing are poured - Ufer grounds. Mentioned for others who are following. But that solution is not relevant to your venue.

Meter defines where the main breaker box (different from distribution breaker boxes) and earth ground are located. For example, inspecting earth ground connections and installing ae surge protector requires access to that meter room. If you normally do not have access to that room, then another reason to have a server room distribution box so that breakers are quickly and easily accessed. You do not want communication equipment unpowered (breaker tripped) because someone cannot find a key to that meter room.

It sounds like he is talking about installing a better earth ground (more rods) closer to the main box. Better earthing means the 'whole house' protector works better. Every 'layer' of protection is defined by the only item required in every layer - the earth ground. So, your primary surge protection is installed by the utility at the pole (or in a ground level transformer box). Visual inspection of the primary protection layer is this picture:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html
All utility wires (power, telephone, cable TV) should connect to this earth ground.

Secondary protection layer is defined by the earth ground at the main breaker box and meter. Every incoming wire in every cable connects to this earth ground either directly (cable TV) or via a protector (AC electric, telephone).

And then some facilities do a third layer. IOW the server room then has earthing in the floor. And all wires enter the room at the same side. All wires again connect to this earth ground directly or via a protector. That is why some facilities also use the raised computer floor. That grounded floor is part of the third protection layer separated from everything else in the building only earthed by the secondary protection layer. Sort of a building isolated and separatedly earthed inside a building.

If you implement a third protection layer, even phone wires must enter and be earthed (via a protector) just all other wires and ducts. All depends upon how 'hardened' you want to make your facility. But then facilities that are that extensive also have electric generators for backup power.

Implementing the third protection layer with a sever room earth ground and without doing it religiously is a good idea - because it is additional protection done on the cheap.

So, let's assume KVM. If outside the room, then CRT, mouse, and keyboard cables would have to connect to that single point ground where wires leave the room. Or the KVM area must be integrated as part of the server room's "third protection layer". IOW the KVM might be done with some converter so that mouse, keyboard, and CRT wires interconnect via some other hardware standard that is 'easy to implement' protection / earthing. And since mouse, keyboard, etc cables have distance restrictions, that converter would also be necessary to connect KVM outside the server room. (Black Box is one company that provides unique and strange solutions for such distant KVM implementations.)

Radiologists transformer would not cause problems. In fact, many commericial 'buildings have transformers inside the building - not on the utility pole, etc. These will convert 4,000 or 33,000 volts (wires that enter the building at voltages that high) to 120/240 volts. (Which is why some meter rooms are restricted access.) Being nearby or inside the buiding does not cause any additional problems. Your air conditioner is more likely to cause 'surges'.

Further confirm that 'no problem'. Operate an old style CRT monitor adjacent to that wall closest to the radiologist's transformer. If his transfomer is generating 'fields', that CRT picture will be distorted by those fields. And those fields still will (should) not be destructive to other equipment.

That CRT test may even discover high current, low voltage (120/240v) wires inside the walls. Sometimes wires to a stove under the floor can distort a CRT when the stove operates. Many worry about high voltages when electromagnetic field interference is more often due to lower voltage, high current wires.

Only problem created by the radiologist's transformer might be minor voltage variations - also called noise - that should be made irrelevant by power supplies inside all electronics. When the X-ray machine runs, you might hear that noise on an AM radio as it power cycles. And then you might learn how many other devices create far more electrical noise. (Tuning an AM radio to distant stations makes it a better 'noise' detector.)

The Kil-a-Watt is another good tool. Notice that V-A number will be different from watts. Watts is power used by equipment. V-A is the actual power consumed. V-A will be same for an incandescant bulb and will be higher for electronics. Bulb has a power factor of 1. Electronics create a power factor problem. Electronics might have a power factor of 0.7. In simple terms, electronics only use .7 amps productively for every one amp consumed. Some larger facilties install power factor correction so that more energy they pay for gets used productively.

Power cosumed by appliances (per Kil-A-Wat) will be less than the number on its power label. What appliances consume typically averages less than the maximum number on that label. A UPS is sized for the maximum number. UPS must be able to provide those peak demands.

30 amps is significant power. Rare is a server closet consuming that much power (something less than 3600 watts). I doubt your equipment will consume that much power - generate that much heat.

Running a 60 amp wire (ie same wire to a buiding wide air conditioner) means even less voltage variation in the room as the load changes. Costs very little more. Makes any future upgrades simple (Just like homes upgraded from 60 amp service to 200 amp service - cheaper was to do it right the first time).

One mistake made by those who have a server 'closet' is that the amount of air moved through that closet is defined by wattage (power dissipated). Just having ventilation is not sufficient. How many CFMs (cubic feet per minute) defines whether the room has sufficient air flow to remove the heat. Small rooms (closets) often do not have sufficient air flow. In simple terms, air flow is defined by the vent duct 'cross sectonal' area. More square inches means more air moved.

Camera typically is not be useful for hardware security. Hardware failures rarely have any visual indication. Sensitive smoke detector (fire alarm) in that room should be more than sufficient for anything that the camera might see - except humans. Camera is important for human security. If really into security, so that someone unconcious in the computer room does not lay there undiscovered over the weekend. Or so that theives can be identified.

BTW, you did not discuss secure data lines - so that vandals do not break communication or implement data theft devices. Netscape had a interesting security device for their data cables. Those cables were in a cast iron pipe often found in older homes for bathroom and kitchen sewage. To compromise the data cables, one had to crack that cast iron. Compromised data easily discovered since the pipe was easily observed by anyone.

Smoke sensitive detectors would do most to protect that hardware room. Of course, no smoking permitted. If the room is properly wired and ventilated, then the amount of power in that room is irrelevant.

KVM and other such solutions are interesting. Humans working in a room more condusive to productive work. More important than cameras is software that can monitor the health of all computer equipment and sound an alarm. So that the KVM remote station can 'see' the failure. Electric power is so reliable that an electrician on call is unnecessary. Far more likely are software failures or a failed server storage device or communication failure. Useful is a separte 'systems health monitor' work area implemented in a nearby quiet workspace.

Important point of that IEEE paper are pictures of how various equpment should be interconnected. In your case, that means extreme electromagnectic fields are less likely to cause data loss, slower data transfers, or interruption. Paper applies mostly to how data cabling is routed. The point is in something like four (somewhat cryptic) points made in the conclusions. An electrician typically would not understand any of that. Electricians spend significant time learning code - that is mostly about human safety and the avoidance of fire. Electricians typically would not understand the reasons in that paper - only understand what must be done. 'Second half' pictures demonstrate what to do.

If rewring a new room, then you might have high reliabiiity circuits - to servers and communcation equipment. And less reliable circuts - to printers. And maybe even switched circuits so that a wall switch powers off everything not required during unmanned operation. For example, if one server can supplement another, then having both servers on separate circuit breakes is a smarter option.

One operation has one power switch(es) adjacent to the door. This powers off all desks and associated electronics at the end of the day. Only machines left powered are the fax and other 24 hour equipment. An easy way to power off everything unnecessary and to reduce the risk of fire (ie somebody left on a small heater). Something to think about if doing that much rewiring. Areas that have much human interaction also have a higher fire risk due to something inadvertantly left powered on over the weekend.

I hope I have covered everything. So this was a simple question about a UPS.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hecktic

hmm by the way... isn't this whole thing about surge protection at the breaker point called "surge suppression"

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Surge protection or suppression or arrestor or TVSS, etc. At one time some tried to claim these were different devices and solutions. Its really all same. Either energy dissipates harmlessly in earth. Or energy is inside the buildig doing bad things while hunting for earth via appliances and electronics.

Yes I think you covered about everything I need to know.. for now at least.

Ive decided to hold off on the electrician and really think about how to go about this in the most proper way.

You gave me a lot to think about so I am going to hold this part of the project off until later this month around the end of May.

Ive gotta understand and comprehend all of the possible solutions before I tell the electrician to implement any of them.

One question I already have thought of, the copper rods (part of third level protection right?) are generally how big in size in terms of length and thickness?

Because I don't want to tear up a lot of the ground in the room, and its a fairly large sized room (which should help cooling efforts). I also don't want the building owners thinking I am installing or setting up a mini data center, although they probably have the slightest clue about the importance of proper grounding, surge protection, etc. So this is another thing I have to think about.

If I recall from Sunday, the electrician said he could install a brand new breaker with 12 outlets with a 60amp line and with the copper rods for added protection plus the protection inside the breaker box itself all for $1200

And he quoted $900 to simply bring the 30amp line over from the main breaker box room to this new server room.

And of course $250 he quoted for just adding the 30amp line to the main breaker box and installing the power outlet in that same room.... this is no longer a option because that room is so small has no cooling at all right now.

But now I am not sure if it did include the rods or if that was separate... but he was fairly certain of the quotes he was giving me although he never gave it to me in writing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hecktic

One question I already have thought of, the copper rods (part of third level protection right?) are generally how big in size in terms of length and thickness?

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Copper clad rods are defined in code at least 8 feet long. Same rods that would be driven outside the building near the electric meter. View them in Lowes, Home Depot, or any other electrical parts store. They are about 5/8 inches diameter. Sell for just above $10. Most expensive part might be driving that rod into the ground.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westom

Copper clad rods are defined in code at least 8 feet long. Same rods that would be driven outside the building near the electric meter. View them in Lowes, Home Depot, or any other electrical parts store. They are about 5/8 inches diameter. Sell for just above $10. Most expensive part might be driving that rod into the ground.

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oh i see. alright yeah we might as well add these then if its not going to create visible earth inside the server room lol -referring to the ground itself showing inside the server room.

i have a new question for you regarding power management.... its about "Green Switches"

So I understand these can be used to tie into many outlets in a large area and allow the user to switch electrical feeds on/off.... sortof like a power on / off button on most surge protectors...

Would this help for a server room? for the weekends in particular when we dont need most of the equipment running? (creating unnecessary heat and potential to cause disaster like fires etc in the building.... you got me thinking about power management)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hecktic

Would this help for a server room? for the weekends in particular when we dont need most of the equipment running?

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This 'green switching' idea can be implemented. But a typical server room does not have much (if any) equipment that is only used during office hours. Whereas office environments do contain plenty of equipment used only by humans; server rooms typically are serving remote customers who access 24/7. Green switching is a good idea IF you have many server room equipment only used during the day. Other than a monitor and overhead lights, I cannot think of anything you might switch off.

Printers generally go into near zero power mode when not in use.

alright so were ready to go ahead with this and I thought it would be better for us to select the main parts like the new breaker box etc. Maybe you have a particular brand and model in mince

Also I got a call the other day from the office saying the whole block had a major problem with the electricity going out.... and that no electricity was available to everyone on the block for a couple hours.... this is like the worst nightmare for anyone running any kind of business that depends on computers, fax machines, etc.

I thought we were okay because we had some UPS and battary backups on all of our equipment but it looks like the shockwave of electricity that put the whole block offline for a couple hours went in our office and burned out all our UPS/battary backups.... except for a near 10+yr old APC unit lol.... the others were made by CyberPower and TrippleLight. These both got burned and no longer are working. What does this all mean?? and how can we best protect ourself from something of this magnitude with our new data room and all the power protections I mentioned earlier in this thread?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hecktic

I thought we were okay because we had some UPS and battary backups on all of our equipment but it looks like the shockwave of electricity that put the whole block offline for a couple hours went in our office and burned out all our UPS/battary backups.... except for a near 10+yr old APC unit lol....

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Destructive surges do not enter a building if connected to earth via a 'whole house' protector. Surges seek earth ground. Either the 'whole house' protector connects that surge within feet to single point ground. Or that surge is inside the building hunting for earth destructively via electronics.

No plug-in UPS provides effective surge protection. They make subjective claims in sales brochures. Read numbers in their specifications. Protection is about as close to zero as possible. And claims 100% surge protection in their advertising. That lying is legal.

A typically destructive surge is harmlessly earthed when the building has a good single point earth ground. And when a 'whole house' protector - at least 50,000 amps - is connected from each incoming AC wire to that ground. What makes that protector so effective? Better earthing with a shorter connection.

New breaker box can be provided by many responsible companies such as Square D, Siemens, General Electric, etc Best box is probably the one that the electrician is most used to installing.

Only breaker panel I have heard that is best removed immediately is Federal Pacific. That brand should no longer exist due to their horrendous reputation. Discovered when a more responsible company (Schneider Electric) bought FPE, discovered the coverup, and then publically (responsibly) exposed a potential disaster.

Ah I see. So I guess there is no point in getting another CyberPower or TrippleLight UPS/Battery Backup. I suppose a simple surge protector should be good enough provided it covers the wattage requirements of the equipment. We were lucky though none of our equipment got burned. But I am amazed that the APC unit held up and still works after this disaster.

Its not the same model as this one but it resembles it physically:
http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product...*1363*&topnav=

Would it be a wise investment for the short term period to get another 2 of these? or should I go with something cheaper like before like the CyberPower:
http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product...rodid=11540417

I have to buy at least 2 or 3 surge protectors but I was thinking an all in one type deal UPS/Surge supressor/protector and maybe even an hour or two of battary backup would be cheaper.... at leasts that is what we had before. The UPS did not provide surge protection to every outlet on the back of the unit ofcourse, just some of them while the others were strictly UPS only.

Also who would you recommend for the whole house protector? and any recommendation on the copper rods idea we talked about earlier... like the size of the rod?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hecktic

Ah I see. So I guess there is no point in getting another CyberPower or TrippleLight UPS/Battery Backup. I suppose a simple surge protector should be good enough provided it covers the wattage requirements of the equipment.

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An adjacent UPS has the same protector circuit found in power strip protectors. Take a $3 power strip. Add some ten cent protector parts. Sell it for $25 or $150. That is why Monster Cable even sells these things. Some now rename the same circuit as a line conditioner – and sell it for $hundreds. It is a profit center; not surge protection.

Surge protection is located at the service entrance - connected within feet of single point earth ground.

A UPS is for temporary power - so that unsaved data can be saved. That is the only UPS function – especially useful in business environments where data costs money. A UPS and power strips both need protection only provided by earthing a 'whole house' protector.

Power strips sometimes create another problem that most fire departments have seen:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol is entitled "Surge Protector Fires"
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/les...tectorfire.htm
http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339

A NC fire marshal describes why this failure exists.

Profit center protectors are sold by companies such as Belkin, APC, Tripplite, and especially Monster Cable. 'Whole house' protectors are sold by companies with better reputations such as General Electric, Siemens, Square D, Intermatic, Keison, ABB, Clipsal, or Leviton. An effective Cutler-Hammer solution sells in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50.

But this is important. Protection is always about where energy dissipates. 'Whole house' protectors connect energy harmlessly (and 'less than 10 feet') to earth ground. Plug-in protectors do not even claim effective protection in their numeric specs. But then plug-in protectors are sold on hearsay and retail myths – not on science and spec numbers.

The same protector circuit in a UPS is typically smaller. As small as possible without being zero. Just large enough so that an overwhelming majority of consumers will believe it is 100% surge protection.

Subjective retail claims are that devious. Protection is always about where energy dissipates. A protector - any protector - is only as effective as its earth ground.

A UPS serves one important function: protect data from blackouts.

thanks for all the information and clarification. I guess ill just focus as much funds as possible on the bigger expenses like the whole house protector and as minimal as possible on a good power strip and/or UPS. The 2 UPS units we had just simply failed while the APC held up to the task. Ironically the APC was older and more worn out than the CyberPower and Tripplelite.

Anyways Im going to start searching for a whole house protector. How many AMPS should it cover to be worthy of a server/data room?

Also I guess a whole house protector would have saved those 2 UPS/battary backups lol.. too bad we didnt think of this earlier...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hecktic

Anyways Im going to start searching for a whole house protector. How many AMPS should it cover to be worthy of a server/data room?

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Protectors must earth direct lightning strikes that are typically 20,000 amps. So a minimally sized protector starts at 50,000 amps. That is for residential protection where power is shared by other homes. And when incoming power is limited to 200 amp service.

Protector life expectancy is ballpark measured by its current rating. Increasing a protector to 100,000 amps would exponentially increase the protector life expectancy.

A protector is also selected based upon service. For example home have single phase, split phase, or two phase electric (depending on the viewpoint of the observer). Commercial facilities may have three phase service. A 'whole house' protector is also selected by phase.

A 'whole house' protector is only secondary protection. Primary protection is provided by the utility. A picture of what should be inspected so that the primary protection system is also functional:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

Quality of single point earth ground mostly determines how a protector works during one surge. A protector's 'amps' mostly determines its life expectancy over many surges.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westom

Protectors must earth direct lightning strikes that are typically 20,000 amps. So a minimally sized protector starts at 50,000 amps. That is for residential protection where power is shared by other homes. And when incoming power is limited to 200 amp service.

Protector life expectancy is ballpark measured by its current rating. Increasing a protector to 100,000 amps would exponentially increase the protector life expectancy.

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Alright so at least 50,000 amps but 100,000 amps would be better... I will look for the highest I can get at the best price. Maybe 150,000 to 200,000 seeing as the utility company we have is the same for the rest of the block and the whole block went down for a good couple of hours so I would probably guess the primary earth protections at the pole are of bad quality or need to be updated. My guess is they may have done this now after that whole incident last week when everything on the block was down. But I have no control over the utility company.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westom

A protector is also selected based upon service. For example home have single phase, split phase, or two phase electric (depending on the viewpoint of the observer). Commercial facilities may have three phase service. A 'whole house' protector is also selected by phase.

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Ah I see, but if I may ask, what is the difference among the phases or how do they work in respect to a commercial setting like the server/data room?

And pricing I am guessing goes higher with additional phases ?

(oh and I also gotta get a whole house protector for my apartment along with a dedicated 20amp line for my new Air Conditioner unit.... its a 14,000 btu, approx 1500watt unit)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westom

A 'whole house' protector is only secondary protection. Primary protection is provided by the utility. A picture of what should be inspected so that the primary protection system is also functional:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

Quality of single point earth ground mostly determines how a protector works during one surge. A protector's 'amps' mostly determines its life expectancy over many surges.

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yeah PG&E, our electric provider does a bad job in my area. I might have to call them up and ask them about the condition of the primary protection they have setup at the poles outside.

p.s. I appreciate your continued help and patience with me throughout this thread. I know these are probably very very basic questions and you probably dont get them a lot. But if there is anything I can do to thank you for your help, please just tell me. I am guessing you work in the electrical industry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hecktic

... seeing as the utility company we have is the same for the rest of the block and the whole block went down for a good couple of hours so I would probably guess the primary earth protections at the pole are of bad quality or need to be updated. ...
Ah I see, but if I may ask, what is the difference among the phases or how do they work in respect to a commercial setting like the server/data room?

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When power goes out, linemen typically don't look for reasons why. Their concern is to restore power ASAP. Grounds are generally (too often) handled as an afterthought. This was especially true of First Energy companies. The company that created that Aug 2003 blackout from Indiana, Michigan, Ontario, to NYC by simply violating basic procedures most everywhere. And that operated a nuclear reactor with a known potential Three Mile Island problem for many months; then discovered a hole in its containment dome.

Phases: imagine a piston that goes up and down to rotate a shaft. Now imagine three pistons located every 120 degrees around the shaft so that one piston at any time is pushing the shaft. Obviously power to rotate the shaft is more uniform when three pistons share the work. That is three phase power.

Single phase power is simply one piston pushing and pulling on the shaft to rotate it.

Electricity from generators is delivered three phase - on three wires. Peak power pulse from any one phase at any time. A three phase generator is more efficient when driving three phase motors; each phase takes turns rotating the shaft.

Homes do not need all three phases due to no big motors. So one third of homes are powered by one phase, another third by the second phase, etc. Electricity delivered to your home is a power pulse 60 times every second - one pulse every 16.6 milliseconds. But your power pulse may be 5.5 milliseconds before other houses. And their power pulse may arrive 5.5 msec before the third group.

Meanwhile, commercial buildings get pulses every 5.5 msec on three wires so that big machines can operate more efficiently. Some lights in that building are powered by the A phase. Others by the B phase. A third group by the C phase. IOW each part of the building powered just like above groups of homes are powered.

Sometimes large equipment in a data center requires three phase. Most only connects single phase.

Would plugging a surge power strip into a UPS or even a UPS into a power strip be bad?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by little_scrapper

Would plugging a surge power strip into a UPS or even a UPS into a power strip be bad?

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Why waste money on a device that does not claim to do effective protection?

Output from this 120 volt UPS in battery backup mode is 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. Power so 'dirty' as to potentially harm power strip protectors and small electric motors. And ideal power for all electronics. Because electronics have long been required to be so robust.

What are you trying to accomplish? All electronics contain superior surge protection - as the 'dirty' UPS electricity demonstrates. Anything that might work on an appliance's power cord is already inside. Protection so robust as to make that 'dirtiest' UPS power into ideal clean electricity.

Your concern is a transient so major as to overwhelm existing protection. Only an earthed protector - where power enters the building - can divert such energy harmlessly into earth.

The power strip is not effective - which is obvious by reading its numeric specs. The best power strip is a $4 strip with zero protector parts inside. And has the 'always necessary for human safety' 15 amp circuit breaker.

Maybe view another problem sometimes created by power strip protectors:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol entitled "Surge Protector Fires"
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/les...tectorfire.htm
http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339

Why do informed homeowners earth only one 'whole house' protector? Because even power strip protectors need to be protected. Why buy a power strip that does not even claim effective protection?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westom

Why waste money on a device that does not claim to do effective protection?

Output from this 120 volt UPS in battery backup mode is 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. Power so 'dirty' as to potentially harm power strip protectors and small electric motors. And ideal power for all electronics. Because electronics have long been required to be so robust.

What are you trying to accomplish? All electronics contain superior surge protection - as the 'dirty' UPS electricity demonstrates. Anything that might work on an appliance's power cord is already inside. Protection so robust as to make that 'dirtiest' UPS power into ideal clean electricity.

Your concern is a transient so major as to overwhelm existing protection. Only an earthed protector - where power enters the building - can divert such energy harmlessly into earth.

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I was having weird issues and wondered if I had brown power issues. Without an O-scope or even a good and fast true RMS meter I couldnt tell, so I just said hell with it and bougt a Cyberpower CP1350AVRLCD. The question stemmed from me being too lazy when I got my UPS. I simply pulled the plug for the power strip and plugged it into the back of my UPS.

The Cyberpower was "reviewed" (takes salt grain) to be one of the LESS crappy simulated sine wave ones (stepping sine wave). I never really considered the output effects on my power strip until after reading your guys thread here. Thus the question.

With my knowledge of MOV's and how they work, and what you say about the output of a UPS on battery(again i personally have never scopped one out), I could easily surmize that prolonged crappey battery output from the UPS could cause the MOV's in the surge strip to overheat, fail, and/or cause a fire. That is assuming that the peaks are suffecient, prolonged, and frequent enough. I guess I should just go ahead and pull out the strip until I can scope out the battery output of my UPS and see what the ACTUAL output looks like.

On a side note I really need to invest in a good meter that reads TRUE RMS.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by little_scrapper

I was having weird issues and wondered if I had brown power issues.

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Brownouts are voltages that drop well below 120 VAC. Surges are events that exceed maybe 330 volts. And exist only for microseconds. No meter is going to record a surge.

Best tool for finding brownouts is an incandescent light bulb. All electronics have ideal voltage even when that bulb is at 50% intensity. If having brownouts (low voltages), the bulb will make that problem obvious. If any major appliance powers cycles and causes the bulb to dim or brighten, then fix defective household wiring. In rare cases, that intensity change may report a serious human safety issue.

The strip is not at risk when the UPS is not in battery backup mode. The UPS connects directly to AC mains via a relay. That means power is cleanest. An also why protection is mostly mythical. Problems occurs when the UPS provides temporary battery power.

MOVs that "overheat, fail, and/or cause a fire" must never exist in a building. MOV normal failure is to degrade - a 10% voltage change. To promote sales, many power strips are undersized. A surge too small to harm any electronics causes the protector circuit to fail and disconnect. That gets the naive to assume, "My protector sacrificed itself to save my computer." Nonsense.

MOVs are effective when connecting a massive surge harmlessly to earth. And the protector must remain functional. Therefore facilities that cannot suffer damage earth 'whole house' protectors. And not use power strip protectors.

A minimal 'whole house' protector for residences is 50,000 amps. So that it can even earth the typical 20,000 amp direct lightning strike. And so that MOVs do not "overheat, fail, and/or cause a fire" - which would violate manufacturer absolute maximum parameters. Oh. And would also threaten human life.

Ok so i understand the resons for grounding the power/telephone poles, and I understand the 'whole house' protectors. Are these also called lightening arrestor systems or is that something else?

Should one have grounded lightening rods on thier house or is this just "encourageing a strike" rather than routing errant lightening into the ground? Which is worse?

Sorry, im not trying to hijack the thread.

EDIT: ok I did a bunch of reading and according to the people that sell lightening rod systems, hehe, I definately SHOULD have them. Something like this.
http://lightningrodstuff.com/index_files/page0004.htm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westom

When power goes out, linemen typically don't look for reasons why. Their concern is to restore power ASAP. Grounds are generally (too often) handled as an afterthought. This was especially true of First Energy companies. The company that created that Aug 2003 blackout from Indiana, Michigan, Ontario, to NYC by simply violating basic procedures most everywhere. And that operated a nuclear reactor with a known potential Three Mile Island problem for many months; then discovered a hole in its containment dome.

Phases: imagine a piston that goes up and down to rotate a shaft. Now imagine three pistons located every 120 degrees around the shaft so that one piston at any time is pushing the shaft. Obviously power to rotate the shaft is more uniform when three pistons share the work. That is three phase power.

Single phase power is simply one piston pushing and pulling on the shaft to rotate it.

Electricity from generators is delivered three phase - on three wires. Peak power pulse from any one phase at any time. A three phase generator is more efficient when driving three phase motors; each phase takes turns rotating the shaft.

Homes do not need all three phases due to no big motors. So one third of homes are powered by one phase, another third by the second phase, etc. Electricity delivered to your home is a power pulse 60 times every second - one pulse every 16.6 milliseconds. But your power pulse may be 5.5 milliseconds before other houses. And their power pulse may arrive 5.5 msec before the third group.

Meanwhile, commercial buildings get pulses every 5.5 msec on three wires so that big machines can operate more efficiently. Some lights in that building are powered by the A phase. Others by the B phase. A third group by the C phase. IOW each part of the building powered just like above groups of homes are powered.

Sometimes large equipment in a data center requires three phase. Most only connects single phase.

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Alright well its not that big of a "data center" although the power to the building and the rest of the block is considered for commercial purposes so Ill see if I can find a good three phase whole house protector. Going to try for 150,000amp protector if possible.

Also I need to get one for my apartment since I got that new AC and it requires a dedicated line (15amp but Ill get a 20amp to be safe) and I also have a new home theator system which I want to put on its own dedicated line also (20amp should be enough I think but Im not sure how I would plug everything in since the physical connector wont match the 20amp outlet plug) I think a 50,000amp whole house protector would be enough for all of this but since this is a large apartment complex building next to four others, I think Im going to try and get a 100,000amp whole house protector (will try and get a double phase if its reasonable for the price)

Do you have any idea of what the pricing SHOULD be?

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Originally Posted by little_scrapper

Sorry, im not trying to hijack the thread.

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Thats fine. The MOV discussion is relevant to my project also. Before knowing this information I was not planning on putting primary earth protection via the copper rods around the data room (esp. near the breaker box and whole house protector), but now I am going to.

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Originally Posted by little_scrapper

Ok so i understand the resons for grounding the power/telephone poles, and I understand the 'whole house' protectors. Are these also called lightening arrestor systems or is that something else?

Should one have grounded lightening rods on thier house or is this just "encourageing a strike" rather than routing errant lightening into the ground?

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Lightning hunts for earth no matter what anyone does. A lightning strike down the street is a direct lightning strike to all household appliances. So we earth all incoming wires directly (cable TV, satellite dish) or via a 'whole house' protector (telephone, AC electric). Other sources of these transient include high voltage wires falling on local distribution, transients created by utility switching, stray cars, etc.

Lightning strike to a building is diverted (connected to earth) via lightning rods. That strike will occur with or without lightning rods. You simply choose what the path to earth will be. How much protection do you need? Neighborhood history for the past ten years is one indication for how much (or what) you might need.

Best price for a 'whole house' protector is in Lowes and Home Depot. Larger protectors for commercial installations may be $200. Best is to consult the electrician for what he usually installs. Installation in an apartment building (should) require an electrician. Pricing also available at electric supply houses. Some examples if they have not changed the link again:
http://www.eaton.com/ecm/idcplg?IdcS...ILE&dID=287147

Let me ask you this. The wires/cables; should they be solid or stranded? I figured they should be solid, but everything I see listed online has braided copper or aluminum for the wires.

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Originally Posted by little_scrapper

Let me ask you this. The wires/cables; should they be solid or stranded? I figured they should be solid, but everything I see listed online has braided copper or aluminum for the wires.

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To be a better surge conductor, a ground wire is best flat. But the ground wire must also remain intact over decades of weather. Therefore ground wires are typically solid round copper so that corrosion and other damage does not subvert that connection.

Why flat? Does the EMF produced by AC component of the strike cause the skin effect. If thats the case then I can understand why everyone is pimping the braided conductors (more surface area). But it would seem that once the dielectric breakdown of the air is completed and the current starts to flow into the ground, its a completely DC current, and thus a solid copper wire would be best. It must be the delta C then. The drop in current causing the change in EMF.

Realistically we didnt cover lightening all that well in Physics I or II. Hehe. My physics book has a whole 1.5 pages on lightening and 1 paragraph on lightening rods. Lightening: Consisting of charges built up in 50m steppers and 'bang'... lightening. Rods: you need a sharp point to ionize the air around the tip. phht how phlimsey is that. :shakes:

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Originally Posted by little_scrapper

Why flat? Does the EMF produced by AC component of the strike cause the skin effect. If thats the case then I can understand why everyone is pimping the braided conductors (more surface area).

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Science says blunt rods are significantly better than sharp pointed rods. But urban myths live on long after the science is discovered. Unfortunately most of us are only educated by advertising - much less knowledge comes from science.

Surges are not DC. Surges are radio frequency transients. Protection is always about impedance - not about resistance.

It was an old joke in engineering school. The DC transient. No such thing exists. Switched DC is a sum of sine waves (Fourier Series) - is not DC current. Lightning is about sine waves at many radio frequencies - is not DC current.

Braided wire does not have appreciable lower impedance compared to solid wire. To significantly lower impedance, each wire in the braid would be separated. Braided wire breaks down, corrodes, or fails faster. Any advantage in lower impedance is irrelevant compared to environmental damage.

Impedance is why a wire with sharp bends compromises protection. Impedance is why wire length (not wire thickness) is the relevant parameter. Why an effective protector must be located so close to single point ground. Why better protection means electronics separated from the protector. And why even splices compromise protection.

The fundamental concept. Lightning is conducted to earth via wooden church steeples. But wood is not a superior conductor. 20,000 amp lightning strike conducted by wood results in a high voltage. 20,000 amps times a high voltage is high energy. Church steeple destroyed.

Franklin simply earthed lightning rods. Rods do no protection. Protection is the earth ground connection. 20,000 amps through a conductive wire to earth is low voltage. 20,000 amps times a low voltage is low energy. No damage. Surge is harmlessly absorbed in earth.

All effective protection does that. Franklin solved lightning to earth destructively via a building. 'Whole house' protector solves lightning to earth destructively via appliances.

Essential to appliance protection is a low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to single point earth ground. Better earthing means most energy dissipates outside. Less energy to overwhelm protection already inside every appliance. A protector - or a lightning rod - is only as effective as its earth ground. A lowest impedance (not resistance) connection.

Are Line conditioners needed for a data room? home?

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Originally Posted by hecktic

Are Line conditioners needed for a data room? home?

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Many if not most line conditioners are nothing more than power strip protectors inside a fancy box, renamed, and sold for $hundreds.

Any line conditioning that that expensive box does is already inside electronics power supplies.

For example, what does a power supply do? First AC power passes through a serious line filter. Then converted to high voltage DC (exceeding 300 volts). Then filtered again. Every electronic power supply has now done more than any line conditioner might do. And that is only the supply's front end.

Then the supply converts high voltage DC to high voltage radio frequencies. Any 'dirty' electricity is now made much 'dirtier'. Then filtered again. Passes through galvanic isolation while high voltage is converted to high current. Then the low voltage radio frequency is converted to DC. And filtered again.

Show me a line conditioner that does any such conditioning? Reasons why DC voltages inside all electronics are so clean. Converted to much higher voltages. It is made even dirtier. Filtered so many times after each conversion. Converted from AC to DC to AC and then to DC again. Where does any line condition even begin to do any of this?

It is called a line conditioner. The only reason why so many recommend it. That thing called a power supply (that does massive line conditioning)? It does not sound like line conditioning. Therefore it must not do all those things listed above.

Too many will promote that line conditioner because their only electrical knowledge is a 'feeling'. It sounds like it must do something because a power strip protector is now called a *line conditioner*. Scams are so easy to promote when so many make recommendations based only on its name. Never once learn any numbers.

View the spec numbers for that line conditioner. Many have numbers that are identical to a $25 power strip protector. A majority will ignore numbers. Only hear the name. Then *know* it must do more.

Line conditioners typically do almost nothing. Job of a power supply - to do massive line conditioning. Rather amazing how much a power supply does with so few parts. Some appliance power supplies do even more for very little more money. Tens or 100 times less than what so many pay for line conditioners.

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Originally Posted by westom

Many if not most line conditioners are nothing more than power strip protectors inside a fancy box, renamed, and sold for $hundreds.

Any line conditioning that that expensive box does is already inside electronics power supplies.

For example, what does a power supply do? First AC power passes through a serious line filter. Then converted to high voltage DC (exceeding 300 volts). Then filtered again. Every electronic power supply has now done more than any line conditioner might do. And that is only the supply's front end.

Then the supply converts high voltage DC to high voltage radio frequencies. Any 'dirty' electricity is now made much 'dirtier'. Then filtered again. Passes through galvanic isolation while high voltage is converted to high current. Then the low voltage radio frequency is converted to DC. And filtered again.

Show me a line conditioner that does any such conditioning? Reasons why DC voltages inside all electronics are so clean. Converted to much higher voltages. It is made even dirtier. Filtered so many times after each conversion. Converted from AC to DC to AC and then to DC again. Where does any line condition even begin to do any of this?

It is called a line conditioner. The only reason why so many recommend it. That thing called a power supply (that does massive line conditioning)? It does not sound like line conditioning. Therefore it must not do all those things listed above.

Too many will promote that line conditioner because their only electrical knowledge is a 'feeling'. It sounds like it must do something because a power strip protector is now called a *line conditioner*. Scams are so easy to promote when so many make recommendations based only on its name. Never once learn any numbers.

View the spec numbers for that line conditioner. Many have numbers that are identical to a $25 power strip protector. A majority will ignore numbers. Only hear the name. Then *know* it must do more.

Line conditioners typically do almost nothing. Job of a power supply - to do massive line conditioning. Rather amazing how much a power supply does with so few parts. Some appliance power supplies do even more for very little more money. Tens or 100 times less than what so many pay for line conditioners.

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No I agree completely, infact most new server power supply units and even desktop/workstation PSUs do exactly as you just said. It makes complete sense.

But what about for an appliance that doesn't have a Power Supply like a computer. Like maybe a High Def. TV? Any idea if these TVs would benefit from a Line conditioner? If so, what spec should the line conditioner be?

like this:
http://www.us-appliance.com/pw101.html

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Originally Posted by hecktic

But what about for an appliance that doesn't have a Power Supply like a computer. Like maybe a High Def. TV? Any idea if these TVs would benefit from a Line conditioner? If so, what spec should the line conditioner be?

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Power supplies are inside any electronics that must have stable and regulated voltages. For example, all computers use 3.3, 5, and 12 volts DC with regulation that is much better than 5%, low ripple voltages, etc. 120 volts AC can vary 20% and even drop out completely for milliseconds. And those 3.3 etc voltages must remain perfectly stable and ideal. Too many functions to list are what a power supply does for all electronics.

That line conditioner is only an expensive power strip protector. Those specs are vague even about filtering - that is already accomplished in every power supply.

Numerous electrical anomalies exist including brownouts, blackouts, surges, noise, power factor, harmonics, etc. Each is solved in a different location. This line conditioner claims surge protection and does not have the always required short connection to earth? Nonsense. It may do some trivial noise filtering (64 dB) but really does not say what gets filtered. And claims to solve nothing else. In short, anything it might do must already be performed by power supplies that exist inside all electronics.

Why must a computer power supply cost at least $60 retail? Because the supply must solve so many problems and regulate voltages. That PW101 for $125 does virtually nothing or does less (64dB) than what every power supply must already do - for over double the price. The line conditioner is only a high profit $25 power strip protector hyped so that it can sell for $125.

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Originally Posted by westom

Power supplies are inside any electronics that must have stable and regulated voltages. For example, all computers use 3.3, 5, and 12 volts DC with regulation that is much better than 5%, low ripple voltages, etc. 120 volts AC can vary 20% and even drop out completely for milliseconds. And those 3.3 etc voltages must remain perfectly stable and ideal. Too many functions to list are what a power supply does for all electronics.

That line conditioner is only an expensive power strip protector. Those specs are vague even about filtering - that is already accomplished in every power supply.

Numerous electrical anomalies exist including brownouts, blackouts, surges, noise, power factor, harmonics, etc. Each is solved in a different location. This line conditioner claims surge protection and does not have the always required short connection to earth? Nonsense. It may do some trivial noise filtering (64 dB) but really does not say what gets filtered. And claims to solve nothing else. In short, anything it might do must already be performed by power supplies that exist inside all electronics.

Why must a computer power supply cost at least $60 retail? Because the supply must solve so many problems and regulate voltages. That PW101 for $125 does virtually nothing or does less (64dB) than what every power supply must already do - for over double the price. The line conditioner is only a high profit $25 power strip protector hyped so that it can sell for $125.

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Alright, but how important is noise filtering for sensitive electronics like the high def. TV? Numerous claims say it helps picture quality, etc... but is that really true?

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Originally Posted by hecktic

Numerous claims say it helps picture quality, etc... but is that really true?

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Where are the numbers? Claims made without numbers are classic junk science.

Again, view the previous power supply description. After filtering all noise, then converting AC power to higher voltage DC. Then it converts that power into massive, noisy power - high voltage radio frequency electricity. Matters little what arrives on the AC power cord. To make ultra pure DC, a supply still makes that electricity much noisier. And but again filters out all noise to create purest DC. Any noise on AC is tiny compared to noise intentionally created inside a power supply.

What is a greater noise source? If the incoming cable is not properly earthed where it enters the building.

Others have no idea how a power supply works. Have no idea that electricity is converted to higher voltage DC, then made massively noisier etc. Have no idea of the many filters already inside all electronic supplies. Instead, a majority see the words "line conditioner" or "noise filter". Then ‘feel’ (wildly speculate) those add-ons must be superior. Are routinely scammed because subjective recommendations are respected. A recommendation without numbers is classic junk science. Anything that noise filter might barely do is done repeatedly and better inside every power supply.

Where are their numbers for improved picture quality? Never exists. Myths – and Saddam’s WMDs are a perfect and duplicate example – are routinely promoted and believed when the myth is a first thing told and when numbers are not always demanded.

If noise is harming picture quality, then high voltage radio frequencies intentionally generated inside all power supplies are more likely the source for that noise.

westom...thank you for your detailed replys not only are they very helpful but they are also great reference for the future.

I am still scratching my head over your blunt rod vs sharp rod statement. My understanding is that a sharper point with its tighter radius is better able to ionize the air immediately around it, and thus make that area 'more' attractive for the lightening. Yes the sharp tip would readily melt into a blunt tip once struck ... But is that not correct in that the tighter radius of a sharper tip creates a more intense field that is able to more readily ionize the surrounding air?

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Originally Posted by little_scrapper

I am still scratching my head over your blunt rod vs sharp rod statement. My understanding is that a sharper point with its tighter radius is better able to ionize the air immediately around it,

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From Dr Charles Moore's Nov 1975 paper and from others:
"... our results indicate that the sharpened rod usually acted to protect itself by emitting ions whenever the electric field exceeded the breakdown threshold. The blunt rod, on the other hand, emitted ions with great difficulty...the fields around the blunt rod often large values that when breakdown did occur at the blunt rod a positive streamer could propagate for appreciable distances away from the blunt rod."

"Field trials in the summers of 1994-98 at Langmuir Labs have provided electric current measurements flowing from various shaped lightning rods. These were correlated to changes in electric fields caused by lightning discharges. Results of this work confirm earlier theoretical models about sharp vs blunt rod behavior. (3) Sharp rods are poorer receptors for lightning than blunt rods."

Again the point. In many fields where knowledge comes mostly from hearsay: what is popularly believed (without numbers) too often does not agree with reality.

I own one of those at work. You WILL need to find out what the AWG size of your wiring is to your plug. You will need to make sure you can carry 30 amps of current. I'd bet money you will be upgrading. Nobody uses thick 30 amp capacity cabling in walls without putting in the 30 amp plug. So short answer is yes, you will need to run thicker cabling in your wall (most likely). You will also need a bigger breaker.

In all seriousness, there's alot that you could do wrong and pose a serious fire hazard. If you're ready to make the jump call an electrician for an estimate before you buy the UPS. This will all make sense to him.

PS - I am a nuclear electrician.

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Originally Posted by westom

From Dr Charles Moore's Nov 1975 paper and from others:
"... our results indicate that the sharpened rod usually acted to protect itself by emitting ions whenever the electric field exceeded the breakdown threshold. The blunt rod, on the other hand, emitted ions with great difficulty...the fields around the blunt rod often large values that when breakdown did occur at the blunt rod a positive streamer could propagate for appreciable distances away from the blunt rod."

"Field trials in the summers of 1994-98 at Langmuir Labs have provided electric current measurements flowing from various shaped lightning rods. These were correlated to changes in electric fields caused by lightning discharges. Results of this work confirm earlier theoretical models about sharp vs blunt rod behavior. (3) Sharp rods are poorer receptors for lightning than blunt rods."

Again the point. In many fields where knowledge comes mostly from hearsay: what is popularly believed (without numbers) too often does not agree with reality.

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OK sounds good. now I need one thing definded. What are we considering a "blunt" rod? Are we talking a rod where the end is like a half sphere or a pointy rod that is NOT sharp.

For example hehe:
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/1...ebetterrod.jpg

:ROTF: I couldnt resist!:p:

the reason i need the details is because i will end up making my own out of stock rod. Thats why I was asking about solid vs braided and such. Hell if i am going to pay someone thousands of dollars to do something that i can easily fabricate myself once i have the details. :up:

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Originally Posted by little_scrapper

OK sounds good. now I need one thing definded. What are we considering a "blunt" rod? Are we talking a rod where the end is like a half sphere or a pointy rod that is NOT sharp.

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Good question. I always only considered straight rods. However the reasons behind Dr Moore's study implies a 'balled' rod would work as good; probably better.

MSpaint:the real mans photoshop!!

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Originally Posted by josh1980

I own one of those at work. You WILL need to find out what the AWG size of your wiring is to your plug. You will need to make sure you can carry 30 amps of current. I'd bet money you will be upgrading. Nobody uses thick 30 amp capacity cabling in walls without putting in the 30 amp plug. So short answer is yes, you will need to run thicker cabling in your wall (most likely). You will also need a bigger breaker.

In all seriousness, there's alot that you could do wrong and pose a serious fire hazard. If you're ready to make the jump call an electrician for an estimate before you buy the UPS. This will all make sense to him.

PS - I am a nuclear electrician.

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Well there is going to be a brand new breaker box inside the server room and yes the size of the wire will be accordingly to the 30amp outlet w/ dedicated line. Its pretty much a dedicated breaker box also just for the server room. There might be 3 lines in it at most -one 30amp for the battery backup/UPS system (it will provide power to the PoE network equipment which in turn acts as a power source for everything and anything connected to it -ie. PoE cameras, etc), and 2 x 15 amp lines for anything else in the room.

Yes, I already contacted an electrician to get a basic understanding of everything including all work that needs to be done and the various options. We decided to go with the idea of a dedicated breaker box just for this room - data/server room, a whole house protector (not decided if its going to be 150k amp or higher yet)

But we already bought the UPS and that was my mistake although its almost a year old now since we purchased it, the most that could go wrong with it, is the battery. It might need some advanced diagnostic testing before we can use it since we never turned it on for this past year.

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Originally Posted by westom

Good question. I always only considered straight rods. However the reasons behind Dr Moore's study implies a 'balled' rod would work as good; probably better.

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Actually that raises another question, so in terms of the server/data room. The new breaker box and whole house surge protector as you know is going to be in here and it will be I would guess at this point a couple feet away from all the equipment. We can move it further away if needed because the room is of a fair size.

So then with the optional rods the electrician said we could have, and we probably will go with a couple of these, how many exactly should we get and where would they have to be placed and also about the tops, rounded (balled) or pointed?

Not sure if your response to little scrapper was referencing outside placement of the rods or inside.

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Originally Posted by little_scrapper

MSpaint:the real mans photoshop!!

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also little_scrapper here is some better pictures of them:
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-1871143..._2119_59787297

and since we are discussing the rods now, Tellurium Copper vs 99.9% Pure Copper ???