TJ07: Black n Watercooled Project

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10-03-2007, 04:40 PM
alphakry

TJ07: Project Benthic
Alright, so I figure I start the official log on this project. As previously indicated in my other thread, I'm looking to build out a TJ07 housing a dual-loop watercooled system. This thread is also being mirrored on [H].

Project Goal: Maximum Performance with Minimum Sound

------------------------ Table Of Contents: ------------------------

Post #2 - Unofficial Sponsors
Post #31 - 8800GTX single bracket installation and first paste test
Post #40 - 8800GTX EK waterblock modification - sunken screws
Post #46 - Motherboard Tray Drilling & Dual Res Mounting
Post #52 - ATX Removal
Post #53 - Powder Coating
Post #66 - Leak Test #1

------------------------ Primary Components: ------------------------
- CPU: Intel Quad-Core Q6700 2.66GHz
- MOBO: EVGA 122-CK-NF68-A1 680i SLI
- RAM: G.Skill PC2-6400 4GB (2x2GB) CL5-5-5-15
- PSU: Cooler Master Real Power Pro 1000W
- GPU: Dual EVGA 8800GTX 768MB (SLI Configuration)
- HDD: Dual Western Digital 80GB Raptor (Raid 0 Array)
- SOUND: Soundblaster X-Fi Fatal1ty w/ Front Panel
- NIC: Killer-NIC Offload Card
- DVD: Lite-on DH-4B1S Blu-Ray/DVD/CD Rewriter
------------------------ Water Cooling Components: ------------------------
- CPU: D-Tek FuZion CPU Block
- MOBO: Northbridge: EK-NB EVGA 680i Acetal;
- MOBO: Southbridge: Swiftech MCW30
- RAM: None yet.
- HDD: Danger Den Aqua-Drive Hard Drive Block
- GPU: Dual EK FC8800 GTX Delrin
- PUMP1: Swiftech MCP350 w/ DDCT-01s PetraTech Top
- PUMP2: Swiftech MCP350 w/ DDCT-01s PetraTech Top
- PUMP3: Swiftech MCP350 w/ EK X-RES 100 Top
- RADIATOR1: Thermochill PA120.2
- RADIATOR2: Thermochill PA120.2
- RADIATOR3: Swiftech MCR220-QP Res
- RESERVOIR: Dual EK-150 rev.2
Loop Configurations:
- Loop 1: PUMP1===>RAD1===>CPU==>RES1
- Loop 2: PUMP2===>RAD2==>GPU1===>GPU2===>RES2
- Loop 3: PUMP3===>RAD3===>MOSFETS==>N.BRIDGE==>S.BRIDGE==>H DDS
  
  the placement of the remaining components is yet to be determined. I'm a believer in shortest path, with the exception that a pump really should always be fed input from a reservoir and output should first hit the loops most critical block.
  
  Tubing Options (3/8", brand to be determined):
  Tygon R-3400 3/8" ID - 1/2" OD - black and sexy (most likely choice)
  Primoflex 3/8" ID - 5/8" OD (1/8" wall) - amazing kink resistance
  Tygon R-3603 3/8" - thick and strong
------------------------ Items No Longer Used and Now For Sale: ------------------------
- Lian-Li VCOOL PC-V1000BPLUS Aluminum ATX Mid-Tower, Modified for Water Cooling
- Koolance HD-50-L06 Hard Drive Cooling Block
- Swiftech MCRES-525 5 1/4" Bay Reservoir from the H20-Apex kit, revision 1
- Cooler Master GeminII LGA CPU Cooler w/ brackets
10-03-2007, 04:40 PM
alphakry

It may be a bit early in this projects life to be thanking people, but I feel I must!

a BIG THANKS goes out to John at Jab-Tech. He's been an incredibly informative and helpful resource in this and many of my other projects and I'm sure he'll be continuously hearing from me before this one is done! Between quick shipments, friendly email responses and the utmost competitive pricing - he's the very first stop any time I ever need a part. 95% of parts you see in this build, from the blocks to the yate-loons, were acquired with his help.

I also must thank Gary Stofer at Sidewinder. He's a valuable asset to this community and his willingness to help us (See virtualrain's post on Tubing Comparisons) really doesn't go unnoticed. He provided me with some tubing that looks to be the decided upon component in this build.

On that same note, Eddy_EK also needs a quick thank you for providing this forum and the watercooling community in general with amazing products that are really designed with OUR thoughts and suggestions in mind! Guys like him and Cathar are really gods amongst men who keep many of us addicted to this world of water! Plus, I am hoping to really put pressure on him to get a Mosfet block designed for the eVGA 680i motherboard before this year is out - and hopefully it will see it's prototyping here in this project! ::Crossed fingers::

And lastly Alex and Quoc at Petra's Tech Shop - for being one of, if not THE best shops out there dedicated to Xtreme systems and keeping them cool!

anyhow, now that I got that out of the way - lets get a few teaser shots in here to keep everyone on page with what's lying on the work bench...

http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...asers/01_t.jpg http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...asers/02_t.jpg http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...asers/03_t.jpg

http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...asers/04_t.jpg http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...asers/05_t.jpg http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...asers/06_t.jpg
10-03-2007, 04:56 PM
RADCOM

fantastic project I shall follow with this to the end, keep posting m8 and good luck!
10-03-2007, 05:05 PM
alphakry
As you can see in the pics, I experimented with the idea of inverting the motherboard. However, because of this - the stock windowed panel becomes useless. Now considering a big secondary goal of this project is to look good, we can't have that - and I don't really want to cut into the other panel to add dual-windows - so it looks like I'll be nixing the 750W Silencer for another PSU that provided longer cables - namely the 8PIN PSU and Main ATX power connections. Any recommendations?

I also think I'll be selling off the MCP655 - as the TJ07 is too narrow and the Thermochill radiators are far too thick - so that bottom compartment is QUITE stuffed - leaving no room for a big pump like the 655. I think i'll be selling it off (see my [h] profile for such business) and replacing it with another Petra modified MCP350. For this same reason, the 120.3 will be replaced with a 120.2 - to give a bit more room to work with.

I prefer the 350 over the 355 for the fact that it's quieter. I don't think I'll need the extra flow and don't want the extra heat dump of the 355 - so the quieter yet still amazing 350 should do the trick!

Stage 1
- Sell off MCP655 for MCP350+Petra's Top
- Sell off PC Power&Cooling 750W for a undecided replacement
- Swap 120.3 for a 120.2 for more room
- Return Motherboard tray to original configuration
10-03-2007, 05:05 PM
Senater_Cache

exciting, please take lots of pics of the blocks being mounted, and all little innovations you will do.

I live for that stuff
10-03-2007, 05:38 PM
RADCOM

I can do swap for pa.120.2 to 3 but guess you live in da US :(
10-05-2007, 03:40 PM
Nate P.

Very nice! I'll be sure to follow this one closely!
10-06-2007, 06:34 AM
alphakry

Radcom - yea sorry, I'm in NY. Plus Petra's is allowing me to return it in exchange for their last 120.2 in stock! :)

Any TJ07 owners out there that have a PSU recommendation with long enough wires for a clean install in this case?

I've always been a huge fan of Seasonic but don't remember them making very long wires. I really wanted to give my first PC Power&Cooling PSU a shot - but between the suggestions that it's not by any means "silent" - and the fact that the main power wires just aren't long enough - it's got to go!

I'm waiting on some right angle radiator fittings (yuck, i know. but it's the only way those 2 thick as brick Thermochills are going to route from the bottom compartment!) plus some tubing to arrive before the next big update! I'll be back shortly!
10-06-2007, 06:58 AM
AndyM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alphakry

I've always been a huge fan of Seasonic but don't remember them making very long wires. I really wanted to give my first PC Power&Cooling PSU a shot - but between the suggestions that it's not by any means "silent" - and the fact that the main power wires just aren't long enough - it's got to go!

Corsair HX620. Made by Seasonic also. Nice modular cables so no extras floating around, and long enough as well.
10-06-2007, 11:52 PM
kimandsally

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyM

Corsair HX620. Made by Seasonic also. Nice modular cables so no extras floating around, and long enough as well.

Yes agreed I have the TJ07 with the Corsair and the cables are plenty long enough, don't need to add more I think everyone knows about the HX620.
10-07-2007, 03:53 AM
alphakry

Yikes @ Modular. Was always skeptical of these types of PSU's due to the chance of poor connections, causing all types of variance... but i'll do some research! Thanks!
10-07-2007, 10:26 AM
Jigsaw

And I thought MY water cooling was expensive... I do have a few questions though. You have a PA120.2 and a PA120.3 listed and yet a single PA120.3 would be sufficient to cool your loop. It would have saved you a fair amount of money to go with just the one rad and a Laing DDC 3.2 pump (like me :D ).

Why did you decide on two separate loops?
Why didn't you spend the extra ~$30 and get a second PA120.3 to match the first one?
10-07-2007, 11:12 AM
DarthBeavis

Quote:

Originally Posted by 13uber37

And I thought MY water cooling was expensive... I do have a few questions though. You have a PA120.2 and a PA120.3 listed and yet a single PA120.3 would be sufficient to cool your loop. It would have saved you a fair amount of money to go with just the one rad and a Laing DDC 3.2 pump (like me :D ).

Why did you decide on two separate loops?
Why didn't you spend the extra ~$30 and get a second PA120.3 to match the first one?

Love the rig in ur quote . . .but want pix . . .

U wanna be my new friend ;)
10-07-2007, 01:14 PM
alphakry

Quote:

Why did you decide on two separate loops?
Why didn't you spend the extra ~$30 and get a second PA120.3 to match the first one?

As previously indicated, i'm interested in maximum performance here. Throwing all of these parts into 1 loop will CRIPPLE the flow... not to mention add tons of heat... 2 loops will allow me to break up the primary heat dumpers (namely keeping the SLI rig from adding heat to the CPU loop) plus segment off any blocks that will impede flow...

I've ran a dual loop setup on my last 3 projects and have always been a fan of the flexibility and performance. Hell, I originally contemplated making this project a THREE loop!

Allow me to quote ranker in a previous conversation we had:

C2D 6850's run very cool with the new G0 stepping. At 4.0 GHz, which is easily obtainable with 1.5v, it'll have a heat dump of about 150W. Throw in a few chipsets a piece at 25W + 25W respectively and you can throw all of that in your PA120.2.

Each GTX puts out about 130W. Two in SLI gives you 260W worth of heat to dissipate. If you throw in your RAM, mosfets, HD's, we're safely estimate them to be 100W total. At 360W, this will all go onto you're PA120.3.

And to answer your second question, though I swore I did that on my last update -Thermochil radiators are BRICK thick... and there is only so much room in any case, even the TJ07... dual 120.3's would NOT fit in this case without serious modification or external mounting.
10-07-2007, 01:39 PM
Jigsaw

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarthBeavis

Love the rig in ur quote . . .but want pix . . .

U wanna be my new friend ;)

I will link my worklog when it gets started. Still waiting for parts to arrive fr it. It is a mod for CeBIT.
10-07-2007, 02:15 PM
Jigsaw

You inspired me to go dual in my project as well lol!
10-07-2007, 02:37 PM
Origin_Unknown

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate P.

Very nice! I'll be sure to follow this one closely!

Me too, I've just had a glance over the thread right now. looks very promising.
Ill have to read it properly tomorrow as i really should be going to bed, work tomorrow :mad:
10-09-2007, 09:16 AM
NicePants42

Quote:

Originally Posted by alphakry

As previously indicated, i'm interested in maximum performance here. Throwing all of these parts into 1 loop will CRIPPLE the flow...

That's why people use two pumps in series.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alphakry

not to mention add tons of heat...

And that's why people use more than one radiator.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alphakry

I've ran a dual loop setup on my last 3 projects and have always been a fan of the flexibility and performance.

Flexibility - can you explain what makes dual loops more "flexible" than a single loop? With a single serial loop, the entire cooling capacity of the radiators can be used most effectively to cool any component being loaded, so I'd give the "flexibility" nod to the serial loop.
Performance - Have you ever used a single loop setup? Considering that the temperature differences created by loop design alone are very small, I would argue that the impressive performance you see with dual loops is virtually no different than you'd see with a single loop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alphakry

Allow me to quote ranker in a previous conversation we had:

C2D 6850's run very cool with the new G0 stepping. At 4.0 GHz, which is easily obtainable with 1.5v, it'll have a heat dump of about 150W. Throw in a few chipsets a piece at 25W + 25W respectively and you can throw all of that in your PA120.2.

Each GTX puts out about 130W. Two in SLI gives you 260W worth of heat to dissipate. If you throw in your RAM, mosfets, HD's, we're safely estimate them to be 100W total. At 360W, this will all go onto you're PA120.3.

Ranker's comments indicate that your setup will work because your radiators will have enough capacity to dissipate the heat that your components generate - Ranker does NOT state that dual loops are the best way to go.

I'm not trying to say that you shouldn't use two loops - I used two loops until a month ago - the reason I'm arguing with you is that you are justifying two loops with unsound or vague arguments, and possibly misunderstanding Ranker's comments. I agree with Ranker that your setup will work just fine, but I don't believe that dual loops are ever a better performing solution than a single serial loop if the same components are used.

As for a quiet PSU, I would recommend the Thermaltake Toughpower 1200W and Corsair HX620 based on hear-say, and the Cooler-Master Real Power Pro 1000W (available in modular and non-modular configs) based on Jonnyguru's review and my own personal experience.

Good luck with the project!

Quote:

Originally Posted by 13uber37

You inspired me to go dual in my project as well lol!

May I suggest looking through this thread? Especially Marci's comments.
10-09-2007, 10:30 AM
alphakry

NicePants42 - without picking through every statement you made with a counter statement, being this probably isn't the best place for such an in depth discussion (a thread like this would be)- let me sum up my dual-loop preference like this:

I prefer the dual-loop setup for the flexibility of options that allow me to isolate different types of blocks.

For example: The FuZion CPU block has much better flow characteristics then the HDD or RAM cooling blocks... using these in the same loop will hinder the performance of the CPU block. By using multiple loops, I can segment out flow-reducing blocks from much more critical blocks and still achieve an overall silent, well performing system. Remember, I considered using THREE before deciding it was overkill - just to keep said blocks away from the two main beasts in this system - the SLI setup and the CPU.

Plus, performance proof aside, it's peace of mind to have my CPU isolated from my GPU's, considering the differences in heat output - as per the examples put forth by ranker.

Additionally, logistically speaking, having 2 radiators on the bottom of the case - it would probably be too much up and down routing of tubes to have two radiators configured into a single loop while avoiding succession.
To avoid having the immediate dissipated heat going from one component to another, I wouldn't want GPU going to CPU, nor radiator going to radiator. A solution to this would be to have a radiator between each of these components, however I expect it would be a lot of tubing without the radiators being in different places.

So, based on my pre-planning and past experience - a dual-loop setup allows me the flexibility to achieve all of these goals.

Make more sense?
10-09-2007, 10:48 AM
alphakry

Also - to address your two-pump solution. I admittedly have not done a ton of research on this design idea. I've never run 2 pumps in one loop for more then failure redudancy.

However, consider a loop with only two components - a high-flow CPU block like a Storm or FuZion - and an incredibly restrictive chipset block. I can't see how adding a successive pump will help improve performance in this loop as the restriction of that chipset block is going to affect the overall flow of the loop - as it acts a bottleneck.

Unless I need to update my knowledge of viscosity and fluids. Again, I'm quite open to this discussion - just not sure if it has a home on my build log.
10-09-2007, 10:51 AM
NicePants42

Quote:

Originally Posted by alphakry

I prefer the dual-loop setup for the flexibility of options that allow me to isolate different types of blocks.

For example: The FuZion CPU block has much better flow characteristics then the HDD or RAM cooling blocks... so by using multiple loops, I can segment out flow-reducing blocks from much more critical blocks and still achieve an overall silent, well performing system.

Well stated. Grouping important components into a single, high-flow loop and the unimportant components in a secondary loop makes sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alphakry

Performance proof aside, it's peace of mind to have my CPU isolated from my GPU's, considering the differences in heat output.

This is where I don't understand your logic - if you're going to use two loops, and plan to separate the CPU and GPU, then one or both of your main component loops will have to suffer the addition of unimportant blocks like RAM, NB, SB, etc. which will reduce performance. This flies in the face of your initial reasoning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alphakry

Logistically speaking, having 2 radiators on the bottom of the case - it would probably be too much up and down routing of tubes to have two radiators configured into a single loop while avoiding succession. To avoid having the immediate dissipated heat going from one component to another, I wouldn't want GPU going to CPU, nor radiator going to radiator.

You are imagining problems where there are none. Allow me to quote Marci:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marci

Order of components in a loop makes no difference.

You're missing the fundamentals of watercooling. http://www.overclockers.com/articles1088/

Quote:

Originally Posted by alphakry

So dual-loop allows me the flexibility to achieve all of these goals.

Make more sense?

All I understood was that with your current plan, you're using two loops because of inconsequential tube routing preferences rather than your perfectly reasonable initial argument of separating high flow from low flow. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Your plan of separating important components with low restriction blocks from the rest of the crap is a great idea, but it would suggest that separating the CPU and GPU blocks from the rest of the system is more important than separating the CPU from the GPUs. I suggest either using three loops like you originally intended (1 for CPU only, 1 for GPUs only, 1 for everything else) or changing your dual loop setup (1 for CPU + GPUs, 1 for everything else) and just make sure you use the PA120.3 for the CPU+GPUs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alphakry

Also - to address your two-pump solution. I admittedly have not done a ton of research on this design idea. I've never run 2 pumps in one loop for more then failure redudancy.

Nothing wrong with redundancy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alphakry

However, consider a loop with only two components - a high-flow CPU block like a Storm or FuZion - and an incredibly restrictive chipset block. I can't see how adding a successive pump will help improve performance in this loop as the restriction of that chipset block is going to affect the overall flow of the loop - as it acts a bottleneck.

A bottleneck that the head pressure of a second pump can help to overcome. Have you, by any chance, played around with MartinM210's flow rate estimator? I heartily recommend taking it for a spin.

As for theoretical discussion and justification of your build decisions, I can think of no more appropriate place than this thread. If you'd prefer to restrict discussion to posts like "Looks great" and "Good luck", that's fine - but please be careful not to make blanket statements about best performance and dual loops that may not apply to all situations, since some people may be misinformed.
10-09-2007, 10:57 AM
nibble

From an aesthetics point of view get the EK NB block, they are far nicer looking than MCW30's and performance is a non issue really, water will spank air no matter how simplistic the block design. Pressure drop is also really low on both.
10-09-2007, 11:05 AM
alphakry

nibble - i agree. I have every intent of running the EK NB block - just have to make sure it will fit correctly. I got the MCW30 just to give it a try since i've heard such great things about it.

NicePants - I agree with your statement about adding the components later in the loop will just be counter intuitive to my opinions of flow restriction. As you can see, I have not come to a decision regarding the placement of these blocks. It's still in planning and for all I know, i may go back to my plan of 3 loops.

My concerns of GPU vs CPU are still valid in my opinion because I want to try and make the heat dissapation of each loop equal or at least more balanced. Having the CPU and CPU in the same loop would sky rocket the amount of heat in that loop.
10-09-2007, 11:28 AM
NicePants42

Quote:

Originally Posted by alphakry

My concerns of GPU vs CPU are still valid in my opinion because I want to try and make the heat dissapation of each loop equal or at least more balanced. Having the CPU and CPU in the same loop would sky rocket the amount of heat in that loop.

So the question then becomes one of flow rates vs. overall heat in the loop affecting performance. A complex question, but in this case, given that you are using a PA120.3 and a PA120.2, I would argue that 410W (maximum load) is not too much for the PA120.3, and the increased flow rates across the key components would be a good thing. Balancing the heat load is not important - what is important is knowing that you have enough dissipation capacity for a given loop.

I don't have much to back that recommendation up with, though. Maybe you could send Ranker a PM.
10-09-2007, 12:11 PM
BNDMOD

Suscribed!!!! impressived...
11-11-2007, 01:36 PM
alphakry

sorry for the lack of updates - been very busy as well as on vacation!

So i'm currently struggling with the idea of replacing the PA120.3 with a PA120.2 instead. This is in the interest of saving space - because believe it or not, even with this massive TJ07 - i'm having a hard time finding places for components that I'm satisfied with.

Anyone know is two PA120.2's should be efficient enough for the chosen components? I'm fairy sure they are but have my doubts as i already had convinced myself the 120.3 was my best choice.
11-25-2007, 05:46 PM
alphakry

I managed to get a hold of a cheap Q6700 Quad Core, so i'll be replacing the E6850 C2D with it and then making up for GHz difference in an overclock. I'm guessing with the newer games like UT3 supporting Quad-Core - it'll be a good future proof upgrade.

Still searching for a good PSU and RAM choice for this project - which are the two main things really holding me up with the final parts to this build.

Additionally, i'm going to take the recommendations by NicePants to the bank - and i'm searching the best way to fit a 3rd loop back into this project. The 120.3 is now replaced by a 120.2, but if i can manage to fit a 120x1 or 120x2 somewhere clever - the high-restrictive blocks will get thrown into a 3rd loop and all will be happy!
11-25-2007, 06:00 PM
disruptfam

120.3 cpu loop
120.2 gpu loop both bottom section

Bip2 in top take out fans mount rad there chipset loop
11-26-2007, 05:17 PM
alphakry

Yep disruptfam - that's exactly the plan.

Im also going to give the G.SKILL 4GB(2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) F2-6400CL5D-4GBPQ a try in this system. For the price ($80 after rebate) - I don't think I can go wrong!
11-27-2007, 11:47 AM
alphakry

Oh wow! Thanks for the looks NicePants - i just checked your SVC link again and they have the Cooler Master RS-A00-EMBA Real Power Pro 1000W PSU on sale for $199, with a $50 rebate that brings it down to $150. That's HALF of NewEgg's price... And I've always been an SVC fan!

http://forums.techgage.com/showthread.php?t=2336

So thanks!

Looks like the two main missing parts to this build have been purchased. I'll be adding to this thread a lot over the next week or 2 till I finish it up!
12-06-2007, 12:15 PM
alphakry

alright - time to bring life back into this log. Got my 1000W Cooler Master PSU yesterday - so i'm finally ready to sit down and start finishing this up!

8800GTX SLI Setup

Single-Slot Bracket Replacement

Pretty straight forward. Since the intent is to use basically all available PCI slots, the double-slot brackets had to go!

http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...acket/01_t.jpg http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...acket/02_t.jpg http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...acket/03_t.jpg

Thermal Paste Application

The chosen paste for all components in this project will be AC-MX2. I've read great things and it's a nice change from the AS5.

http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...paste/00_t.jpg

I admit, a little creative with the application. I will be removing the block shortly to test the application/spread - but I don't think it was TOO much.

http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...paste/01_t.jpg http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...paste/02_t.jpg http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...paste/03_t.jpg

I notice the card does bend a bit when the mosfet section of the EK block is tightened - but with the thermal pads applied and less force, it's an acceptable bend

http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...paste/04_t.jpg
12-06-2007, 02:34 PM
Crazypinoy9

Nice! Keep up the good work!
12-07-2007, 02:37 AM
Pub_Randy**

Quote:

Originally Posted by disruptfam

120.3 cpu loop

Wow am i the only one who thinks this is overkill?

Why would you need a SINGLE PA120.3 to cool JUST the CPU :shrug:
But umm.. if you've got the money.. all the more reason to.. waste it?
12-07-2007, 04:35 AM
alphakry

Sorry - I haven't updated that line yet. As the the top post of page 2 indicates, I have replaced the 120.3 with a 120.2.

The original idea behind using either in the CPU loop was the add additional components that would restrict the flow a bit, so the hope was to compensate with a tad better cooling efficiency.

I still have not 100% determined the end result, but if I can fit it - I'm hoping to fit a third loop in to cool everything else - leaving the SLI's on 1 120.2 and the CPU + Chipset on the another!
12-07-2007, 08:19 AM
disruptfam

i wouldn't really call a 120.3 on a quad cpu overkill on a dual yes but quad no :)

I also doing a 3 loop system will be finished this weekend hopefully leak testing as i type :)
12-07-2007, 08:58 AM
Polizei

You might have a single slot bracket on the 8800GTX's, but the EK block on there isnt a single slot block. It covers some of the slot below it so you cant get a card in there.
12-07-2007, 09:00 AM
alphakry

not true. I've tested the fit and so long as the cards aren't massively wide - they fit just fine.

The cards listed in my spec all fit without any issue - save for 2 screws of the EK block that caused some blocking - which I already solved and is coming up in my next update!
12-07-2007, 09:01 AM
phelan1777

i will throw in my .02 based on my exp.

Ambient temp 30-33c

68f according to the wall thermostat sitting above my head.

I am running a PA120.3 in which I have a:
QX6700 @ 3.4GHz 24/7 (lapped)
Core Temp states
Core 1 38c 51c
Core 2 42c 54c
Core 3 42c 55c
Core 4 39c 51c
Apogee GTX bowed (52c @ load running Boinc/EQ2 or BF2, @ idle 38c "yes I game and crunch @ the same time")

Temps do not change unless load changes

Dual 8800GTS @ 651/951 (stock 513/723) @ load 43c second core 45c these are naked under the blocks so lower temps -5-10c @ idle 39 second core @ 41c

MCW30 on the NB holds temps @ 38-40.

So I can wager a bet that the PA120.3 is just SLIGHT over kill on a quad alone.

I am inclined to believe I could ad a sb or mosfet, and @ most see a 5-7c degree in over all temps. This woudl still be well within operating range for all components.

I think would be be safe with at least a GPU and the Qcore on the PA120.3
12-07-2007, 09:02 AM
Brian MP5T

Subs
12-15-2007, 11:53 AM
alphakry

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polizei

You might have a single slot bracket on the 8800GTX's, but the EK block on there isnt a single slot block. It covers some of the slot below it so you cant get a card in there.

I addressed this issue today.

I was concerned about this and did notice that the screws sticking out of the top of the blocks did indeed block one of the PCI slots that I needed.

http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...kedPCI01_t.jpg http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...kedPCI02_t.jpg http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...kedPCI03_t.jpg

I spoke with Eddy_EK about this and he suggested that I use sinking screws, as he assured me that drilling out these slots would not affect the block in any way. He recommended ISO 7991 M4x12mm screws.
I found these at the local Lowes:
http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...edPCI/01_t.jpg http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...edPCI/02_t.jpg

Something very important to note - Delrin is a VERY soft material for drilling. Without a drill press, the bit WILL catch and you're block will leave the table spinning! See the following hole, which was done with a drill.

http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...edPCI/03_t.jpg http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...edPCI/04_t.jpg http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...edPCI/05_t.jpg http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...edPCI/06_t.jpg

As you can see, this hole is too deep for comfort. That's because the bit caught and dug itself deep before I could cut power. However, I leak tested it for 72hrs and had no visible leaks so I threw an o-ring in the hole as a backup and feel confident that no water is making it out.

Because of how soft the delrin is, I did the rest of the holes with the 5/16" bit and a glove. Hand drilling the holes was actually easier then I thought it would be and it allowed me to get a much better hole - so i feel it's the best and safest way to make these sink holes.

http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...edPCI/07_t.jpg http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...edPCI/08_t.jpg http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...edPCI/09_t.jpg http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...edPCI/10_t.jpg http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...edPCI/11_t.jpg http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...edPCI/12_t.jpg http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...edPCI/13_t.jpg

The final result is as hoped - with proper clearance being left for the X-Fi card! The motherboard isn't mounted in this picture, so the cards are a bit more leaned then they will be on install - but when held in place correctly, the cards fit almost perfectly. As a precaution, I'm thinking I'll place a few pieces of electrical tape on the bottom contacts of the X-Fi - to prevent a possible short if the screws do touch.

http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...edPCI/14_t.jpg http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...edPCI/15_t.jpg http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...edPCI/16_t.jpg

Personally, I hope that Eddy produces these blocks in the future with pre-sunk holes.
12-15-2007, 11:57 AM
alphakry

Additionally, i figured I would give this a proper name - so going with a suggestion from Yahoo! Answers - I've now entitled this TJ07 - "Project Benthic"

I considered Bershadsky's suggestion but it didn't have as nice a ring to it. :)
12-16-2007, 05:25 PM
alphakry

Loop Feedback Needed

So i've managed to come up with a 3-loop design that just fits. I'd really appreciate some feedback and thoughts on the following:

Loop 1
MCP350 -> 120.2 -> CPU -> Northbridge ->Res

Loop 2
MCP350 -> 120.2 -> 8800GTX -> 8800GTX -> Res

Loop 3
MCP350 -> Harddrives -> Southbridge -> Mosfets -> Black Ice GT Stealth 120.1

*loop 3 will not have a res, unless i can hunt down a really small one like a MCRES-MICRO
12-17-2007, 04:58 PM
NicePants42

I like those three loops. If possible, I'd try to use a 120.3 for the GPUs, but you should be ok with those loops. It is possible to fit two MCR320s and one MCR220 in the TJ07 without too much hassle, or two MCR220s and one MCR320 with even less hassle.
12-18-2007, 03:53 PM
alphakry

Thanks Nicepants. I'll snap a few shots to show you just how brick thick those PA120 radiators are - there's no way in gods green earth you can fit a 120.3 in this case without some serious airflow issues.
12-19-2007, 06:36 AM
NicePants42

Quote:

Originally Posted by alphakry

Thanks Nicepants. I'll snap a few shots to show you just how brick thick those PA120 radiators are - there's no way in gods green earth you can fit a 120.3 in this case without some serious airflow issues.

Did you edit your loops?

I'm familiar with the thickness issues. You've seen AndyM's build, right? Depending on how you arrange your pumps, I can see why you'd prefer to use two 120.2s instead, but I'm a little lost when it comes to the BI Stealth GT 120 - where are you going to put this? Why not use a BIP 240 in the top of the case?

Even so, your 3 loops as they are will be fine. My personal preference (sticking with your original line of thinking) would be to keep the NB in the junk loop so that the CPU and GPU loops are completely isolated. Perhaps two PA120.2s (or copy AndyM) in the bottom section for CPU and GPU loops, with a BIP 240 in the top for the junk.

I'm not going to argue much over such details though, because the performance differences will probably not be noticeable in terms of temps and will certainly not be noticeable in terms of clock speeds. There comes a point where ease of use and aesthetics needs to take priority over theoretical 0.1C improvements. I'm confident that the system you build will perform very well.
12-20-2007, 05:24 PM
alphakry

Great log! I had not seen that build log before. In one of his last posts, he experiments with the air flow in a way that goes against what I thought to be true! I may have to take his finding into heavy consideration and consider a straight through airflow instead.

My original plan was to have the radiators offset from each other so that they weren't competing to pull air. That way they both pull air from inside the case at different points of the bottom compartment and exhaust it through the side panel grills. I didn't want it to be a straight through for fear of heat exhaust from one rad affecting the next.

http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...acing/01_t.jpg http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...acing/02_t.jpg http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...acing/03_t.jpg http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...acing/04_t.jpg http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...acing/05_t.jpg http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...acing/06_t.jpg

It's hard to see here but notice that each radiator has at least 1 fan with basically full clearance. I even considered using Push/Pull on the radiator in front to better improve performance on that 8800GTX loop. With the extra space of using a 120.2 instead of a 120.3 - you can see I have a lot of room to hide my two pumps.

You can also see that without right angle fittings - which i try to avoid like the plague - the rads won't work. AndyM seemed to also run into this problem. I'm hoping that despite these fittings, the remaining loop is restriction-free enough for it to hardly matter.

Now when it comes to the BIS120 - i plan on using this at the top of the case. It just barely fits thanks to a capacitor that stick out at the very top of the board - as seen in this first picture. I had to actually bend it down a tad to get the BIS120 to fit.

http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...acing/07_t.jpg http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...acing/08_t.jpg

In the second picture, you see the mosfet heatsink that doesn't allow a 120x2 radiator like your suggestion. Additionally, I want to use the BIS120 because I already own it. With a fan mounted in the 2nd OEM slot at the top of the PC, i can mount the radiator there to handle any heat being dumped by the "junk" components. I'm not sure if it's the motherboard choice or i'm missing something - but I can't fit the MCR220 there nor can I fit the BIS120 in the other space above the CPU.

I want to keep the NB in the CPU loop because I don't suspect the Q6700 is going to dump tons of heat into the loop and I'm under the impression this chipset is pretty critical to the performance and stability of the 680i - so i'd rather not loop it with a bunch of restrictive less-important components.

Here's a few other pics of some recent additions:

Mobo-tray holes for wiring and rear waterblock access:
http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...acing/09_t.jpg

Dual EK Res + directly connected fillports
http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...acing/10_t.jpg
http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...acing/11_t.jpg
12-20-2007, 05:43 PM
CrayS-per4m

the TJ07 is still my favorite case ever, and it's still the perfect case for waterooling at least to me :)
12-23-2007, 08:44 AM
ranker

A fantastic build Alphakry. Keep up the great work. I had a hard enough time fitting three loops into a MM Cube, but my hats off to you if you can do it with a standard tower!
01-06-2008, 07:47 PM
alphakry

Thanks for the kind words ranker.

I know I've let this thread slow down a bit. Things are always hectic.
However the interior case is going to the powder coating shop this week. I think I've decided on a high-gloss black as the interior chassis color.
This will help compliment the shiny silver on the blocks and give a nice reflection to the UV lighting that may find a home in this.

I considered polishing the interior to a mirror finish but couldn't really find a place to do it.

I'm also having a hard time finding a picture of someone who may of done the high-gloss powdercoat but it's attractive in my head.
02-10-2008, 03:19 PM
alphakry

Well I went with the high gloss black powdercoat and it came out pretty nice.

I'll snap pictures tonight as I'm trying to finalize this build this week.
02-10-2008, 04:52 PM
Jay78

very nice work so far
02-10-2008, 05:42 PM
alphakry

So in order to neatly hide the ATX power cord but still allow it to reach, I decided to try something new.

I drilled a hole into the motherboard tray to allow me to route the ATX wire through the tray from behind.
After cutting out a slot behind the tray to allow the wire to be routed, I had to then remove the ATX connector to allow the wire to fit through the hole.

ATX removal is not the easiest trick. I decided to try the Basic ATX Pin Removal tool from Jab-Tech
WHAT A PEICE OF CRAP! The instructions listed in the link specifies that it requires skill and practice to really be able to use this tool. Well that would be great, if the pins didn't break so incredibly easy. It also didn't fit correctly no matter what I tried.

First, pictures of the Cooler Master Real Power Pro 1000W ATX pin out:

http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...moval/01_t.JPG http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...moval/02_t.JPG http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...moval/03_t.JPG

So after breaking that waste of a tool, i decided to give the old "staple" trick a go. And to my surprise, it was a lot easier then I had thought.

The Staple Trick:

http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...moval/04_t.JPG http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...moval/05_t.JPG http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...moval/06_t.JPG

Because I taped each removed wire next to each other so that I wouldn't mix up any ordering, putting this back together was a breeze!

Final Product:

http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...moval/07_t.JPG http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...moval/08_t.JPG http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...moval/09_t.JPG
02-10-2008, 06:06 PM
alphakry

And here are shots of the powder coating.

In total, it cost me $60 at a local shop. A deal in my opinion based on the time saved in having to do it myself (spray painting in the winter isn't fun!)
Plus all the holes they had to seal with silicone and then later unseal - not a bad price in my opinion.

Anyone in the NY area should check them out: Perfection Powder Coating

http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...rCoat/01_t.JPG http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...rCoat/03_t.JPG http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...rCoat/04_t.JPG http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...rCoat/06_t.JPG

http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...rCoat/07_t.JPG http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...rCoat/08_t.JPG http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...rCoat/09_t.JPG http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...rCoat/10_t.JPG

http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...rCoat/11_t.JPG http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...rCoat/12_t.JPG http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...rCoat/13_t.JPG
http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...rCoat/14_t.JPG http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...rCoat/15_t.JPG http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...rCoat/16_t.JPG

The only thing I was disappointed with is probably the most important and visible panel - the separating panel between the lower and upper compartments - seems to be a bit pitted.
I assume this may be because it was dusty/dirty before they started spraying it - or that maybe the paint just didn't take right. It's minor but being the perfectionist I am, I hate to see any flaws in what I consider the most important panel.

http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...rCoat/02_t.JPG http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...rCoat/05_t.JPG
02-11-2008, 06:43 AM
AndyM

Wow, really nice with that black interior! :up:
02-11-2008, 10:17 AM
Kolapso

Looks intresting, ill follow this and see how it goes, good luck :D
02-11-2008, 10:50 AM
flyinga2

[QUOTE=alphakry;2763253]And here are shots of the powder coating.

In total, it cost me $60 at a local shop. A deal in my opinion based on the time saved in having to do it myself (spray painting in the winter isn't fun!)
Plus all the holes they had to seal with silicone and then later unseal - not a bad price in my opinion.

Anyone in the NY area should check them out: Perfection Powder Coating

The only thing I was disappointed with is probably the most important and visible panel - the separating panel between the lower and upper compartments - seems to be a bit pitted.
I assume this may be because it was dusty/dirty before they started spraying it - or that maybe the paint just didn't take right. It's minor but being the perfectionist I am, I hate to see any flaws in what I consider the most important panel.

<<It looks great alphakry! Question: I was told by a local shop in my area that the shell pieces, i.e. side panels and center piece could not be powdercoated because they were factory prepainted on the outside, and the 700F ovens would kill the external paint job! How did you get around that?

Be careful with a 620W PSU; a single GTX needs a minimum of a 460W PSU, but more importantly needs 30A on the 12V rail/PER CARD=60A just for 2 GTX's!>>
02-11-2008, 02:45 PM
Jay78

black looks great
02-11-2008, 07:37 PM
alphakry

Thanks for all the comments guys. I'll keep you posted as i do more

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyinga2

It looks great alphakry! Question: I was told by a local shop in my area that the shell pieces, i.e. side panels and center piece could not be powdercoated because they were factory prepainted on the outside, and the 700F ovens would kill the external paint job! How did you get around that?

Be careful with a 620W PSU; a single GTX needs a minimum of a 460W PSU, but more importantly needs 30A on the 12V rail/PER CARD=60A just for 2 GTX's!>>

a. The only parts I know of that are prepainted are the outside shell and side doors. Both of these parts, I left as is. The only parts I had powder coated were in internal cage - any part that was aluminum/silver colored.

b. Not sure if you've kept up with the updates and updated part list on post # 1, but I have since replaced the 750W Silencer with the Cooler Master Real Power Pro 1000W. So these GTX's should be happy.
02-11-2008, 07:54 PM
evil-98

awesome build, im also putting together a tj07 and i like some of your ideas :up:

good luck
02-11-2008, 08:54 PM
Tulatin

As clean as the motherboard tray ATX passthrough is, i'd say that you would have been better off to use a short, sleeved ATX extension cable. Sure, it would boost resistance slightly, but it would take PSU swaps down by like what, 35-40 minutes?
02-12-2008, 04:02 AM
alphakry

I don't plan on swapping the PSU often, if at all. So i'd rather have to spend the extra 20-40 minutes removing it the once or twice in it's life then compromise stability.
02-14-2008, 03:02 AM
C4PPY

Thats just nice ! :)
02-22-2008, 10:18 PM
charles_h

Alphakry, I'm digging on that gloss black interior! Be sure to mask those surfaces before assembly. A scratch would be disaster.

Enjoy your build. :)
03-06-2008, 11:01 AM
\Karting_freak

any updates?
03-11-2008, 02:36 PM
V3LOCIP3D3

I'm in the planning stages for a new liquid cooled pc and I'm looking for ideas, and the way you mounted your reservoirs looks perfect and I want to do the same. How did you end up directly connecting your reservoirs to your fill ports? can this be easily done?

thanks, and i can't wait to see your finished system
03-11-2008, 04:07 PM
alphakry

hey, sorry for the lack of updates boys!

i'm happy to report i have loop # 1 leak testing at the moment! here are a few quick shots of how she currently looks.

http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...est01/01_t.JPG http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...est01/02_t.JPG http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...est01/03_t.JPG

http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...est01/04_t.JPG http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...est01/05_t.JPG http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...est01/06_t.JPG

http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...est01/07_t.JPG http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...est01/08_t.JPG http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...est01/09_t.JPG

Loop # 1 CPU goes as follows: CPU -> RES -> PUMP -> RAD

Loop # 2 GPU goes as follows: GPU1 -> GPU2 -> RES -> PUMP -> RAD

Loop # 3 is still in planning as I want to be sure the radiator, reservoir and pump all mount in comfy ascetically pleasing locations. But you can get a general idea of what i'm thinking from the shots above.

I'm also glad to report that I have now replaced my DVDRW drive with a Lite-On BLU-RAY writer. Go Team Sony! :)

http://www.dellefemine.com/images/co...est01/10_t.JPG
03-11-2008, 04:09 PM
alphakry

so now the big question is:

What colors do i want the reservoirs to glow? :)

Blue, Blue, Blue
Blue, Green, Pink
Blue, Green, Green
Blue, Pink, Blue
Blue, Pink, Pink

yea, the tubes are all black but if i throw a UV light into the media bay, they'll glow a nice little color that should reflect somewhat throughout the whole compartment.

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