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DID can be zeroQuote:
Originally Posted by KTE
I found that the max async latency differs ~10ns. That has an impact on benchmarks. Using the same latency leaded to much more linear results. So i keep an eye on that subtiming now. Might be common sense for ocers.Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
how can i flash back to 1.1 safely?
With this board the options are either 1 or 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by justapost
I haven't seen that option on this board.Quote:
I found that the max async latency differs ~10ns. That has an impact on benchmarks. Using the same latency leaded to much more linear results. So i keep an eye on that subtiming now. Might be common sense for ocers.
10ns EVEREST RAM latency? Are you sure about this?
There' nothing I've seen giving you that much gain on this board so far (no patch BIOS). I mean the major timings on K10 are ~seven and 5-5-5-15 2T tRC 35 tRFC 195ns wouldn't get 10ns higher latency than 3-3-3-11 1T tRC 24 tRFC 75ns on my board. Usually 4-5ns is max.
This might help you although it concerns K8/DDR, it is still simple enough to apply in many areas.
gareth170: Using the exact same method you used to flash 1.2, just with the correct v1.1 BIOS file. ;)
Ok KTE..
Can I get a short list of the options difference you see with POD compared to 113 when running a black edition of the Phenom? did you take not of this when you where playing with the 2 different bios. Is the POD really a better performer then the 113? more buggy?
just wondering I hope you havn't already stated all of this.
i used msi live update 3 which it made a automatic flashing dos disk with the 1.2 on it which i liked. but ive deleted the 1.1 setup files from msi live update 3 folder. where can i download it from again? and would it downgrade this way?Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
no it will just go back to stock bios check MSI's website for offical bios.
You are talking about your bios options.Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
Check MSR C0010070 with CrystalCPU.
Bit 0:5 is CPUFID
Bit 6:8 is CPUDID
CPUDID should be zero if you set it to 1 in the bios.
About MaxAsyncLatency.
As i played with different nb multis the value varied between 48 and 57ns here.
Here are two Screenshots with differen MaxAsyncLatency settings.
http://www.abload.de/thumb/ev8x3s.jpg
http://www.abload.de/thumb/ev8-57nus.jpg
Difference in Everest Latency is ~6ns.
The equation used to calculate this value is in the K10 guide. I'll try to find it.
P0D had the errata patch and nothing more different for me. So I reinstalled 113. I'm running P0E now and it has different options than the last BIOSes.Quote:
Originally Posted by jonspd
On their website: http://global.msi.com.tw/index.php?f...2&type=utilityQuote:
Originally Posted by gareth170
Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
P0E has more options then the last bios 1.2?
noo i mean i have live update 3 already install. and when u download something from it , it saves it in a temp setup folder but i deleted the 1.1 bios setup files which automaticly flashs the bios in dos.. i can't redownload it from live update 3 because its seeing i got 1.2..Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
the flashing dos disk it made take the 1.1 file from msi and replace the 1.2 on the disk if you said it made one with 1.2 on it then restart and type the flashprograms name in when in dos
Yep.Quote:
Originally Posted by justapost
I'm aware of the equations mentioned in the guide as I've mentioned before because we went over them in the "Breaking K10 230MH HT limit" thread. The equation I gave is a simplified version of the official one and specific to this boards BIOS programming. You only need BIOS HEX values to give you the speeds and so its easy for anyone to use and doesn't require any decoding.
Ah ok. I didn't use Memset to change timings with K10 so far because it was giving me problems. Tried the latest one now and it works OK, and the option for MaxAsyncLat appears. And yep, it produces big latency gains and even bandwidth gains, well spotted and thanks. ;)Quote:
About MaxAsyncLatency.
As i played with different nb multis the value varied between 48 and 57ns here.
Here are two Screenshots with differen MaxAsyncLatency settings.
http://www.abload.de/thumb/ev8x3s.jpg
http://www.abload.de/thumb/ev8-57nus.jpg
Difference in Everest Latency is ~6ns.
For Phenom, yes. But it has many problems not present in 1.2 aswell.Quote:
Originally Posted by jonspd
I don't use Liveupdate 3 TBH so I'm not sure what it allows and not. My IE 7 is also crashing so I can't try the Liveupdate (I hardly use IE). The way I flash BIOSes is the usually done way, using a floppy or USB drive.Quote:
Originally Posted by gareth170
*You need a DOS floppy disk to boot with (download the files HERE and unzip onto an XP formatted floppy disk).
*Set system to boot from Drive A: with the floppy disk inside.
*And then after its loaded into the DOS environment, you need to insert another floppy disk which contains the BIOS flash utility (EXE file) and the BIOS itself.
*Then you need to type at the command prompt: A:>flashutility biosfilename.ver and press Enter. For example.
--With Flash Utility Afud412.exe and BIOS file A7376AMS.113, you type:
afud412 a7376ams.113
*Press Enter.
*Don't do anything and wait for it to see if everything completes (percentages) and the flash succeeds. Then restart and load BIOS defaults.
*Done. ;)
u can't type anything because it flashs all automatic..Quote:
Originally Posted by jonspd
Sry about that I'm used to awardflash.exe...
I guess kte summed it up tho.
Thanks for the info on the POE also want be trying that one :D
It has too many problems and also the errata patch applied. It also only allows DDR2-1066 3-5-5-15 as the lowest RAM values.Quote:
Originally Posted by jonspd
Must have missed that, so for the record the bios labels 2^CPUDID as CPUDID. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
I mentioned it because the max async latency seems to change in a non linear way with different ref HT's and nb multis and that can causes non linear results in benchmarks.Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
DID 1 stands for 0 and DID 2 stands for 1. I'll check on the MaxAsyncLat soon. So far I've tried keeping it at 44 at all multis if HT ref/RAM is kept constant.
Found the place in the K10 dev doc. MaxAsyncLatency is labeld MaxRdLatency in the doc (verified it with wprcedit). Chapter 2.8.7.8.4 describs how to calculate the value used during ddr2 training and a method to optimize the value after dram training. In case you are interested and don't already know. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
The value varies up to 2ns between reboots here that makes ~100 MB/s difference in everst mem read.
44 seems to be the max i can use here. I gain ~300 MB/s in mem read compared to the 50ns the bios detects.
Thank you for the mem-tuning link, gona try that method soon.
I'm not sure what the last 4 characters of the stepping code means. I assume it has something to do with the IMC? :confused:
But the "MPMW" seems to be weak for OC'ing. I've been reading these threads for a few weeks now and was really confused by some of the numbers you guys were getting, when I couldn't even get close regardless of how many V's I gave the chip... (I have a 9600, 0745MPMW)
I kept thinking I was losing my touch, or missing something....
At least I don't feel quite so bad now. ;)
I've had the chip for 2 weeks and this is the best I've been able to achieve while retaining Stability. This is a shot with SMP folding for well over 72Hrs...
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...25LongFold.jpg
If you folks should find a magic bullet for MPWM, I'd sure like to know! :D
If not, this may at least give some of you a rough point for a stable OC...
EDIT: Oh BTW, this is with 9x NB (1962Mhz) and 8x HTT (1744Mhz)... HTT may run at 9x but I haven't tried upping it yet, I was just looking for something solid...
at last with my wc setup im able to run 3dmark at 2.7ghz though, i need 1.44vcore...
card's @ 850 mhz gpu or 800 mhz gpu mems are stock card one 1177mhz and card 2 1126mhz... enjoy :P
gonna run again tomorrow becose flashed clock fix biosses in.
phenom 9500
msi k9a2 plat
ballistix 8500 2x1gb
2x3870 powercolor zerotherms... which are not working even at stock speeds (mem)
3dmark 06 14.4k
http://xs123.xs.to/xs123/08026/3dmark06349.jpg
Yeah, it calculates a total aggregate based on latencies and NB clocks so indeed it would definitely make a large difference to the DCT performance. I've tried 40ns vs 50ns at 1066 5-5-5-15 2T, good gains.Quote:
Originally Posted by justapost
As for NB DID, my BIOS gives the following options:
Bits - Divisor
000b Divide-by 1
001b Divide-by 2
010b Divide-by 4
011b Divide-by 8
100b Divide-by 16
Anything chosen >1 doesn't POST (clear CMOS needed).
IDK if what applies to K8 applies to K10h number decoding since they are totally different. One thing does apply, the year/week and the stepping '0747' and 'CAAWB' for instance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daveburt714
But so far one other member says "MPMW is crap" based on 2 results. That's not right to do, it's too early to say this or if the latter letters make any difference at all.
-Firstly you'll need to have a database of similar week different last 4 letters to compare them.
-Secondly you need to have records of 'MPMW' and some other of any one particular week.
-Thirdly you need other week batches.
-Fourthly you need to match and variate steppings.
-Fifthly you need many samples of each chip to get a close to accurate rough idea.
So far we don't have these. 9600 BE could in itself be just a bad clocker. How do we know? Based on retail user results so far, it looks like a bad clocker, worse than locked Phenoms. Especially on HT ref. Jack looks to have a similar week/step to me, so we'll wait to compare chip potential.
I mean, how many users have you seen get more oc out of 9600BE than the standard edition?
How many retail users have you seen 2.55GHz stable on 9600BE?
Many have this with 9500/9600 though. :(
When I see ES/PR junk like this it really ticks me off because they're try to get the feeling across that one one random sample they received reached 2.8GHz stable easy and yet that's totally untrue for retail so far. I'm sorry but not talking to any AMD reps for which step/week to buy and just going out and picking any one sample of the shelf is what we do and what applies as user centric results. I mean even Fudzilla reported on 18th November something far more accurate than most I've seen around: No plus 2.3GHz parts until B3. The >2.4GHz B3 Q1 part is where what I've heard doesn't agree but the rest has been true for a while.
Also, I'm not sure if I've mentioned it but you'll need to know K10 (AM2+, and AM3 actually) are limited to providing a maximum 110A to the cores and 20A to the northbridge. Not very healthy for oc if you start at 2.2GHz at 1.232V 95W TDP.
Generally 9500/9600 are clocking far better than 9600BE so far. My 9500 did 265HT ref but this 9600BE struggles over 210. Though I haven't yet underclocked the NB/HT to test max (BIOS problem), I have enough to show me the basics when 1.504V 1.48VID 220x11 fails bootup and destroys the Windows registry.Quote:
But the "MPMW" seems to be weak for OC'ing. I've been reading these threads for a few weeks now and was really confused by some of the numbers you guys were getting, when I couldn't even get close regardless of how many V's I gave the chip... (I have a 9600, 0745MPMW)
I kept thinking I was losing my touch, or missing something....
At least I don't feel quite so bad now. ;)
If you folks should find a magic bullet for MPWM, I'd sure like to know! :D
If not, this may at least give some of you a rough point for a stable OC...
EDIT: Oh BTW, this is with 9x NB (1962Mhz) and 8x HTT (1744Mhz)... HTT may run at 9x but I haven't tried upping it yet, I was just looking for something solid...
:(
KeZzZu: Its better to either post thumbs when its not something everyone passing-by will need if they miss it, or just to crop only the info you need to show in the pics (the tools/values). :)
9500s are going very good so far... in comparison to the rest.
KTE : fixed now. gonna rerun today with pencil mods. 15k barrier should be easy. also 3dmark06 wasn't up to date. patching it right now.
Thanks. :D
What volts did you need to bench 2.7G 3D on air?
And what was the water and ambient temp?
that run was with watercooling here specs:Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
500l/h pump
black ice stealth 240 with only one fan.
thermalright xwb-01 cpu block
ambient air temp +20 c'
water temp unknown :(
Cpu vid 1.25v
vcore 1.4x (just to be sure it can handle heavy loads.)
cpu idles +24 - +28 c' load with superpi +32 c' and all cores load unknown
havent checked it yet, run was made at 6 am and after that i went to bed... so that's why im gonna take some more ss and info about systems ^^ thats's all info what i remember about from run :)
So you couldn't bench 2.7G 2k6 on air but could do it on water?
yup, because boxed cooler couldn't handle heat at 2.7ghz also i have ace in my hands... using normal thermal paste between cpu and block... i have some liquid metal pads here should be few degrees lower temps then :PQuote:
Originally Posted by KTE
That means there's a bad current leakage problem at ~1.4V.
For a 2.2GHz 1.23V 95W TDP chip, the power needed to be dissipated at 2.7GHz 1.44V is 160W providing core current supply is kept constant. So no wonder you need liquid. ;)
K10 MCT seems quite limited which outlines another problem with having an IMC that's 1066 constrained. If you didn't already know, my RAM does 675 5-5-5-15 PL5 with 2.3V (benched) and 600 4-4-4-4 PL5 at 2.2V (32M) on P35 easy, but on Phenom/790FX, they fail and reboot at 562 5-5-5-15 all timings high and relaxed at 2.2V or 2.3V. Heck even my bad ProMOS IC's (Corsair PC6400) did 645 5-5-5-18 at 2.35V! So this is quite damn low for oc'ing. And nevermind "extreme", 2.2/2.3V is more like stock.
I'm linking two very good files for Phenom overclocking to the first post in this thread here
/One is the new improved Prime95 25.6 for torture testing, power measurements and for testing which core is stronger (it is still beta, but so are most good things :D)
/The other is K10Calc by lukija (A64Info developer). It is very simple yet allows you to input simple BIOS OC values to show you the CPU/HT/NB speed in different combinations.
Prime95 25.6 looks like this (my recent 2.3GHz CPU, 2GHz NB, 2GHz HT, 1066 RAM 35 minute stress test) ->
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7...loadth9.th.png
And K10Calc looks like this (values placed in there correspond to Phenom 9500 stock settings) ->
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/5042/k10cjv6.png
The first (worst case) value is calculated. But after Dram training it get's optimized by a training method similar to memtest.Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
The value diminishes as long as the patterns are read correct.
This training leads to different results (+-1ns) after each boot. The value also is smaller if i apply more volts to the ram.
That's why i mentioned it in the first place. ;)
I wonder what other (L3 related) latencies are configured in a similar way.
Well choosen labels.Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
How do you calculate this?Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
Another question: What is the max ref HT you can boot with with an 9xnb multi?
KTE - thanks for the K10Calc link. Looks like a nifty
little utility :)
EBL
Test with DQS Drive Strength enabled settings, it helps in the same way here. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by justapost
By using the common formula which cooling product makers use to calculate chip power dissipation and cooling ratings. Same with whats used to build phase change units and so on although most common people don't know of it. Take my example.Quote:
How do you calculate this?
Phenom 9500 95W TDP chip has 18.9A per core @ 1.232V = 93W
Using 95W as reference stock chip power, say I oc'd to 2.5GHz at 1.4V:
95 x (2500/2200) x (1.4²/1.232²)
139.4W power
Code:Pn = Pt x (vn/vt) x (Un²/Ut²)
TDP - thermal design point (Pt = Power [W])
Default Voltage (Ut = Voltage [V])
Default Frequency (νt = Frequency [MHz])
Overclocked Voltage (Un = [V])
Overclocked Frequency (vn = [V])
212MHz :(Quote:
Another question: What is the max ref HT you can boot with with an 9xnb multi?
I'll test more later with a better BIOS (flashing back to older ones without errata patch).
No such bios option here :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
Thx.Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
Is that the maximum with the Be9600 or also with an 9500?Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
CAAWB AA 0748dpgw
thats what week chip I got all my parts are here waiting on a smp unit to finish so I can switch my mobo and stuff out of my main into my secondary.
edit do you care if I post my results KTE?
Check in AOD. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by justapost
9500 was 268 HT ref. max bootup, 270 HT ref. max with AOD and 265 HT ref maximum at 10x multi stable.Quote:
Is that the maximum with the Be9600 or also with an 9500?
The BIOS I'm testing is "not so good" so things are a little iffy. For instance I cannot know if its my RAM making it reboot, my NB or just the CPU (RAM/NB cannot go lower than stock 1066 and 9x with this BIOS)
9600BE;
Max so far booted at low HT/CPU multi is 220HT ref. (9x NB multi though)
Max so far booted at stock CPU/NB/HT multi is 206HT ref. (more does not boot fully) :(
Any more than 220 HT ref. through AOD will freeze/reboot the system (regardless of volts/vid/multi). There definitely seems a limit, I'm not kidding when I say these look like the reject 9900. This one does not go above 2530MHz, from fully stable at >1.25VID 1.32V to instantly totally unstable at <1.5VID 1.48V. This one also hates above 12.5x multi, no boot and instant reboot with AOD.
Max fully stable so far is this: http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc.php?id=296574
CPU: 2530MHz
NB: 2200MHz
HT: 2200MHz
RAM: 587MHz 5-5-5-15 2T
HT ref: 220MHz
I'm going to run the stability test of that for longer overnight before screening. 1hr passed quite easily at CPU 1.25VID 1.34V.
This is the second one I had fully stable: CPU 2415MHz, NB/HT 2100MHz, RAM 560MHz 5-5-5-15:
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/753...r30mqe1.th.png
Do I care? Yes, I do. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by jonspd
Now... quickly post them. :D
(although try keeping them small in size)
You have the same step BE as mine.
Found it. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
Running a stability test with 220MHz * 10,5 over night, so i'll try tomorrow.
Puh, now 212MHz with the 9500 whould have shocked me.Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
BE9600 is at least good for NB tweaking, will be interesting to see how far you can push it.Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
I'm still undecided which board i should choose.
Id prefere the DFI as it is finaly available here and i'd like to have a board with
thousands of bios settings. :D
Had ordered it already but cancled it due to the problems with phenoms atm.
Now i wonder if the boot limit at ~205MHz was caused by the cpu and not the mobo.
Well get CB 8500 Tracers in a few days however. ;)
:ROTF:Quote:
Do I care? Yes, I do. ;)
Now... quickly post them. :D
KTE : you're right ^^ remember first opteron 144 s939 models? and especially CABGE patch cpu's... had one... needed freaking 1.9vcore to hit 3ghz with icy water... phenom just need's time to get fixes ... btw only cold can help with ocing current phenoms.. but we dont have unlocked multis.. and BE models sucks at ocing & high ht ref...
in my opinion all models should have unlocked multis and be's should have something else like tighter latencys on l2 and l3 :P but impossible thought.
So far, at any mutli, at any voltage, at any VID, at any NB/HT/RAM/HT ref. frequency, there has always been one peak stable: 2530MHz.Quote:
Originally Posted by justapost
That is fully stable at any config (even tried 2.58GHz NB/HT) but 2MHz above it is not stable with anything!
Plus, the voltage needed for high NB is not much and the voltage needed for 2530MHz on all cores is 1.32V idle/1.3V load (fully stable). But my core 4 and core 1 are weak, much weaker than the rest and core 2 is very strong. It may even do 2.7GHz, I'll test it. I've had a 2.63GHz run on it quickly without any freeze/reboot but I'd like 2cores to work in unison at set speed. Dual-core >2.6GHz and quad-core 2.5GHz won't be too bad because I'll adjust it at my need.
Some quick valids with higher than stock NB/HT (stable):
http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc.php?id=296693
http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc.php?id=296694
http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc.php?id=296695
http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc.php?id=296696
Also, I've only yet tested at high ambient temps and pretty high core temps (plus 47C load). Will try colder soon, its 2C out here as well.
Here's 2.438GHz CPU and 2.542GHz NB/HT:
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/9...5442xn8.th.jpg
Here was a quick plus 2.65GHz on NB (never restarted CPUZ, which you have to do for it to pick up correct values at times):
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/9...2544nj1.th.jpg
This is what I'm stress testing now (dropped NB/HT/RAM because it was pointless running those speeds with the errata patch):
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/574...1818wf4.th.jpg
It's past an hour stable so far. BTW, AMD Power Monitor only picks up dynamic CPU FID change and everything else remains from the bootup values. ;)
Yeah I wanted the DFI originally but their BIOS is no good for Phenom although excellent for X2. Probably the worst out of all offerings I've seen for Phenom and missing way too many options available on other boards. ASUS 790FX has one good option all other boards are missing so far but otherwise, this board has all options I'd want and better than most I'm seeing, better than the ASUS/Sapphire in BIOS OC options. I've heard they're taking heed to add more of what we requested, in which case it'd be a top notch board for users. Myself, I won't be keeping it, so not really bothered. :DQuote:
I'm still undecided which board i should choose.
Id prefere the DFI as it is finaly available here and i'd like to have a board with
thousands of bios settings. :D
Had ordered it already but cancled it due to the problems with phenoms atm.
Your board or mine? Mine doesn't have a low HT bootup. Plus 350HT ref. boots easy on X2 and plus 260 has booted easy on Phenoms.Quote:
Now i wonder if the boot limit at ~205MHz was caused by the cpu and not the mobo.
Cold would definitely help since current leakage starts to increase very quickly with the chip. You'll see it as soon as you move voltage/vid up from stock. Without even maxing out volts/vids/frequency, I've topped 450W (VAC) power draw (CPU load) while the same scenario at stock produced 162W (VAC) power draw. This happens with many chips above stock though, but it is very high current leakage.Quote:
Originally Posted by KeZzZu
I think you have stumbled upon AMD's primary problem with getting clock speeds up.Quote:
Plus, the voltage needed for high NB is not much and the voltage needed for 2530MHz on all cores is 1.32V idle/1.3V load (fully stable). But my core 4 and core 1 are weak, much weaker than the rest and core 2 is very strong. It may even do 2.7GHz, I'll test it. I've had a 2.63GHz run on it quickly without any freeze/reboot but I'd like 2cores to work in unison at set speed. Dual-core >2.6GHz and quad-core 2.5GHz won't be too bad because I'll adjust it at my need.
Yep, looking at all this one can very easily see that there will be far too many chips which don't make the 2.5/2.6GHz bins and 2.4GHz bin for quad/tri core on two->one core so would be selling as disabled. That looks to become pretty common, especially considering that most Phenom chips out there today are only getting ~2.45-2.55GHz stable on 4-cores and usually have two cores which can do 100MHz more stable.
Anyway, a quick update:
The same setup as before but this time I threw the ambient lower (19C) and HSF speed is max. Just an average cooler, nothing extreme, rare or expensive. Still going but +2hr P95 stable by now.
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1...92hrqg5.th.png
http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc.php?id=296735
Next shot will be at the 8 hour mark with high ambient and lowest fan speed to replicate a high case temp typical setup or a low noise setup (as I usually prefer).
Also a thing to note to you guys:
Windows XP/Vista schedules CPU time priority to the application in the foreground, i.e. in focus. Hence whatever is at the front is what will be running to the most potential and this applies to any stress test too. Leave the window maximised and it'll run quicker, more power draw and stress harder. ;)
Well, I will probably start working with the Phenom tomorrow. Right now messing around on the 5000+ BE....
Is that more or less than the 9500 required for 2530MHz? I browsed over the first pages of the thread and found only 2,4 or 2,6GHz results.Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
Must say i did not expect 3GHz with the BE. If that would be possible in numbers there would be no delay for 9700 and 9900. But i expected an better result that with an 9500.
Same here booted with 235Mhz and tried to lower multis till it was prime stable. Core 2 is my best one, unfortunately i can not define which cores to disable. I can only define the number of cores i want. Does the MSI board allow this?Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
I'm involved in an project using medical image processing alot. CPU and memory heavy stuff, so I aim for an good oc profile i can use just in case i need it. But most of the time 2x1,8GHz or so are sufficient here.
Had an 9750 here for a day. Did a few benchmarks at 2GHz to comapre it clock for clock with a 2xk10 and 2xk8. As expcted the 9750 won most of em. But the phenom system seems to respond faster, but that's an completely subjective impression i can not proove with numbers.
I get these core temps on 220x10,5 with the reserator 1p. Guess it's time for an 9700 HSF.Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
In terms of stability or speed?Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
AMD NB Power Monitor u mean. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
Latest success report on bro's DFI review doesn't look so bad. But I already got the confirmation that they canceled the board on my order.Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
The Asus board? What i don't like about Asus is their technical support, I never got any respond from em and they do not even appear in their own web forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
Lol, the DFI board. M3A seems to do ~360 ref HT with the 406 bios.Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
235MHz was the max i could boot with the 9500 in the M2A-VM and the M3A so it might be the cpu's limit.
have you done any Super PI 1M testing? and have you been able to achieve stable 1200mhz on the memory?
I don't know which batch you have and the stock voltage, but IIRC 3.2/3GHz was my first boot at stock volts and mine was limited around 3.55GHz on air. It needed higher volts and was running very hot stock so I backed out, reminds you of the P4 days. HT limit was 396MHz and 370MHz was fully stable. Have you tested your boards HT ref. limit?Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpingJack
2.55GHz was stock volts/vid stable with 9500. This BE requires more and it also has a higher power consumption/temps because of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by justapost
I did based on my earlier testing, had they given higher binned cores to us like with the previous FX/BE's instead of reject cores unlocked. These cores are worse than the 9500/9600 on retail around which is not the usual way to sell an enthusiast product.Quote:
Must say i did not expect 3GHz with the BE.
Do you mean through the BIOS?Quote:
Same here booted with 235Mhz and tried to lower multis till it was prime stable. Core 2 is my best one, unfortunately i can not define which cores to disable. I can only define the number of cores i want. Does the MSI board allow this?
No board I've seen yet allows selective core disabling through a released BIOS, have you?
It's one of the options I asked for actually, to allow changing multi of each core within the BIOS.
Yeah for desktop/office functioning, I don't know why this is but because of the memory perf/latency. I've not touched AMD CPU's after K8 since 2006 and switching from a 2 year Intel run on the same day, cloned OS, same GPU/RAM, you can definitely tell the general responsiveness speed difference. Launch some work and you can also tell the performance difference in the same way too though. :DQuote:
Had an 9750 here for a day. Did a few benchmarks at 2GHz to comapre it clock for clock with a 2xk10 and 2xk8. As expcted the 9750 won most of em. But the phenom system seems to respond faster, but that's an completely subjective impression i can not proove with numbers.
What volts/vids are you using?Quote:
I get these core temps on 220x10,5 with the reserator 1p. Guess it's time for an 9700 HSF.
Your chip runs hotter than my 9500 but roughly similar to this BE. You're better off getting a Tunic Tower 120 or Thermalright Ultra-120 if you're paying, the price is v.similar and they cool better especially with +1 fan configurations.
Performance is real junk with the patch. :(Quote:
In terms of stability or speed?
It's called AMD Power Monitor officially :p:Quote:
AMD NB Power Monitor u mean. :)
Although the best thing about it and the only thing I use it for is to see NB VID.
Same here. Way too much experience in that to bother again even though they have decent products but their prices are also ridiculous for not much or any gain. They also play too many caught-red-handed games with consumers for money. Moto: Release 20 products in each chipset, only actively support the ones that make the news with overclockers first, and enthusiasts second. Everything else is really messed about with. If they had some commanding position of quality which was unmatched, we may have been forced to buy their MBs but not when you have better MBs for cheaper with far better BIOS/support around. That said, some of their P35 boards are excellent value for money.Quote:
The Asus board? What i don't like about Asus is their technical support, I never got any respond from em and they do not even appear in their own web forum.
I actually really wanted to try their 790FX board but there is no point with this chip.
With BE, no I haven't. Mainly because I'm testing many BIOSes and they all have the errata patch so any performance benchmark result would be bleak at best.Quote:
Originally Posted by =[PULSAR]=
With the Phenoms before, yes I did.
Well, I can't boot/AOD above 220HT without a lockup/reboot, and that's around 586MHz on the RAM, so I don't know if 1200 would be stable or not. I'd give it a shot with the better older BIOSes but they don't run 1066 on RAM, so max I'd get with 220HT is 440MHz using them.Quote:
and have you been able to achieve stable 1200mhz on the memory?
If the NB multi lowering from 9x worked I could've tested 1200 RAM pretty easily. I'll see what I can do, right now it's running a stress test for another 4 hours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
Well this is G2 silicon and from my experience so far (just a few hours of playing) it is much improved over G1.
I wonder if it's due to the board or the the cpu. Is it the same for other users with the 9500?Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
2,35GHz is max. stable jpierce55 and I can get at stock.
It's a nice playground in terms of settings and it does not cost more than the 9500.Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
Yes through the bios i meant. I have not seen a board allowing this also, but it whould be a nice feature. Asus boards allows downcoring thru the bios at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
That whould be nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
Not sure about performance in medical image manipulations as those are very memory and floating point heavy. Do you know how the platforms do in ct/mrt segmentation?Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
I plan to write a benchmark for those special tasks. I'll build another intel rig for an employee soon, hope I can keep it for a week or so this time.
At stock (1,25V), max possible on the M3A atm.Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
I'm concerned about the board cooling with those horizontal mounted fan's. CNP9700 seems to do a better job here.Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
Do you think the extra cooling power provided by those 120's is needed for AMD cpu's.
The Thermaltake Big Typhoon VX funkflix used does not look so bad eighter.
Ahh okQuote:
Originally Posted by KTE
I choose a Gigabyte P35-DS3 board for my first intel rig, did not look bad but i missed basic memory timing settings. After I had it benched it suddenly did no longer boot with 1066 settings. Time was to short to make myself a good picture of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
what's the difference between core voltage and core VID?
We're past the 12hr mark in stability perfectly now and I don't see a reason to continue at this setting. Here's some good knowledge for you though:
higher CPU temps>higher current leakage>higher CPU power draw. ;)
You saw 217W AC max draw before at the same MHz but low ambient/CPU temps. Now I've left everything running and as soon as I increased the ambient temperature and dropped the HSF speed to lowest, the same load is now pulling 13W AC higher at the same PFC consistent. Move the temps down and you get 215-7W AC back again, even though it should increase since the fan pulls 3W AC going from lowest to highest speed.
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/5...12hryq8.th.png
2525MHz / 4cores 1.320V idle/1.30V load
1818MHz IMC/HT
539MHz 5-5-5-15-29-2T RAM
12hr stable, 50C max CPU temp reached.
Idle 110W AC
Full load:
230W AC high ambient-bad cooling.
217W AC low ambient-good cooling.
NB VID can go lower to 1.2VID stable at those NB MHz (2.2GHz/2.5GHz will need the above VID though) and thus total power consumption will also decrease a little.
I've found what causes my system lockups! The cores jump in MHz wildly at some second now and then. I had a lockup just now and I managed to catch it while it happened at 2.3GHz. Core 2 and the NB jumped to 2.68GHz randomly and that caused the system to lockup. Don't really know how to work around this or where the source of the problem is here. :(
For reference to MSI K9A2 Platinum users, CPU and NB VID 25=1.237V, 24=1.250V .... 15=1.337V and so on. Just FYI. ;)
Can't really comment based on memory since my own experience with G1 was long ago. Through observations, I would say something similar.Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpingJack
Quite frankly, it looks like the CPU to me. The only thing it can still be is the RD790 clock generator which is what causes most of the oc errors around with people. It is hard to debug though, I'm trying to find out it's MSR to read the registers but haven't got anywhere since there is minimal official documentation on the RD790.Quote:
Originally Posted by justapost
Well the firm I picked up the 9600 BE from purchased both this and the 9500 at the same price but that's not true for retail buyers who feel it in their pocket first and foremost. US has it far cheaper compared to Phenom 9500/9600 and Intel C2Q than UK and much of EU does. Many [r]etailers are price gouging.Quote:
It's a nice playground in terms of settings and it does not cost more than the 9500.
I haven't, sorry. A benchmark for that field would be pretty good to use, I hope it's Windows based though and not Unix. :DQuote:
Not sure about performance in medical image manipulations as those are very memory and floating point heavy. Do you know how the platforms do in ct/mrt segmentation?
I plan to write a benchmark for those special tasks.
Some of the AM2+ boards, in fact many of them, require a lot of MOSFET/inductor cooling and for those the 9700 works pretty good (since it can cool the RAM and CPU supply circuitry at the same time). The only reason for wanting better cooling would be a) try low temp oc b) lower noise c) better cooling price/performance really. K10 oc doesn't seem temperature limited at all, so whether you try the stock fan or a 250W TDP CoolIT freezone Elite, it doesn't seem to enhance the oc in any way from my experience and observations.Quote:
I'm concerned about the board cooling with those horizontal mounted fan's. CNP9700 seems to do a better job here.
Do you think the extra cooling power provided by those 120's is needed for AMD cpu's.
I actually like the Gigabyte P35 series a lot. Had a lot of good experience with them. :yepp:Quote:
I choose a Gigabyte P35-DS3 board for my first intel rig, did not look bad but i missed basic memory timing settings. After I had it benched it suddenly did no longer boot with 1066 settings. Time was to short to make myself a good picture of it.
First is VCore and the latter is Voltage ID needed for the processor to set Performance profile states. It's a little too lengthy to explain accurately but in short, you have higher amps fed to the core with higher VID and higher VCore options available as you increase the VID (I've tried up to 1.74V).Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcmtl
For reference, if you use the TLB patched BIOS there is no real way to disable it and gain the previous performance you have without it. AOD "boost" button will make things considerably better depending on the application (helps where memory performance is paramount) but still not anywhere near without the patch in the first place.
For instance,
a) Super Pi 1M without the patch at 2300MHz 420MHz 5-5-5-15-24 2T is 33.1xx seconds.
b) With the patch at 2300MHz 533MHz 5-5-5-15-24 2T it's at 37.1xx seconds.
c) With the magic *TLB cache button enabled+patch it'll perform the calculation in 35.1xx seconds.
SuperPi uses a set of recursive functions but it is a CPU clock-speed dependent benchmark first and foremost.
So the loss is approximately (CPU MHz x Benchmark Time [s]);
a) From a "PP" of 76,130
b) To 85,330
c) Remedied a little to 80,730
The formula is actually scientifically used in computer engineering and typically show a CPUs "clock cycles taken per benchmark". At XS they use the same formula with a twist to get a smaller value representing "efficiency" which is still denoting the same thing, although not in 10E-9 as it should be. Time cancels out in the real equation since CPU speed is in itself is consisting of time. :)
*The button color which disables the patch through AOD to some extent is this: http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9...odbttonmm3.png
You can close AOD after you've hit that button to that color and the chosen setting will still remain until a restart.
KTE i have been following your test of the 9500 from the start and now also the BE , it seems the BE is not what we hoped for. My question though, would you advice getting a BE ( i have a 9500) or not. Currently my CPU don't wanna run stable past 2500 which it did before and i see you running more than that. Also is there a degration in performance like the other Phenoms on the BE?
Yeah I remember you Swanie, don't worry. :D
No degradation on the BE so far as seen on the 9500. My 9500 was much better than this one though.
Maybe BE is worth it for you then considering what you're stuck with at present but keep in mind nothing of oc is guaranteed. You may get more and you may even get less than what I'm getting at present. The good thing of BE is, you can run NB/HT at plus ~2.5GHz very stable at near 2.4GHz on CPU. I personally would not advise buying the BE yet if you have a Phenom already.
Ah haah ....so the Phenom 9600 Black Edition is a bust then....I knew it was going to be pure marketing hype!
For the past hour I had a scare. No bootup.
I attached an extra SATA HD (stock settings) and straight after that it failed bootup no matter what I did. Cut down all peripherals to just CPU and yep, it was constantly stuck in a reboot cycle. This is with a clear CMOS and battery out for a damn 30 minutes. I thought it was dead for sure because although RAM was working, there was no picture or POST.
Just managed a quick bootup randomly. I reckon it's the BIOS... but it's weird how I can't get into Windows either, it gives a very funny chinese message and then restarts. :confused:
And the system is anti-virus/firewall protected too, no spyware detected too. Not sure I want to debug this. :(
BTW, I did 2.7GHz on core 1 and 2 whilst keeping the rest stock. 2.8GHz reboots but 2.65GHz seemed about fine for benching. However you cannot validate only one/two/three core results.
Bummer. Thats not good KTE. The Chinese are attacking ya again.
So I'm still having no luck with these ram at any timings. With any bios. I got the new official ones... Beta ones...Nothing
I have the nice Corsair TWIN2x2048-8500CD G. They wont post with more then 1 stick. I'm gonna put those ramies in another system. What ram would you guuys recommend?
Low timings with the option SOMEDAY to get to 1066mhz.
Also nice fins/heatsink I would like a very cool system temp.
Nah, there is more fun in unlocked multipliers than just get the max overclock, though that is the supreme quest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Esau
Haha I have a unlocked cpu which I leave at X10:D its absolutely pointless unless you have phase Change or uber cooling!
I got a stupid question, i know that the 9700 and 9900 have been put on hold/ delayed but i am seeing more and more sites having the 9700 up for sale .My question are if it is available is this a better prospect than the 9600BE?
Well, a full 8 hours of troubleshooting and 15 hours of no system bootup, even with the best BIOS flashed and no peripherals! It's very difficult to troubleshoot when you have no bootup. :mad:
It turns out Phenom 9600 BE I received cannot boot at stock volts anymore. So every CMOS clear/reset/BIOS flash, it just fails to boot.
I mentioned at the beginning that the system sets 1.192V 1.20VID at bootup at times (which is just about stable) and at other times it sets stock bootups volts at 1.2VID and 1.184V -> this does not bootup for hours repeatedly. Leave it to get cold and it'll bootup for you to change it. Bump it up one notch to 1.2V (next option after auto) and the system is fine.
But I can't keep a core which is problematic like this. It obviously has problems at stock. Going to run a stress test at 1.192V 1.2VID now and then 1.184V 1.2VID as it chooses randomly and see which core/s are failing. If so, back it goes.
Chinese characters were corrupt ATi drivers and the reboots causing a corrupted disk sector. No oc anymore until I get another core.
Swanie: no way. ;)
around 2.6 max not good...
Thanks KTE - now it is settled. Will get the BE but will keep my 9500 as backup. At least i can play around again and see what it delivers and post my findings that hopefully can assist you . Are you going to get another BE?
Whats the max HT ref., max single core, max 2 core, max 3 core, max 4 core, max 4 core short bench, max 4 core long bench (3D) and max 100% stable? (full details) :DQuote:
Originally Posted by jonspd
What about the NB/HT/RAM, what's the max stable you've managed (unganged - ganged is easy to hit high speeds even with non-BE, like single channel vs dual channel)?
Yep.... hopefully but that depends on my stock stability test findings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swanie
BTW, Super Pi 1M is like this at stock with 9600 BE (CAS4 because I don't want to reboot to change it to 3 and be stuck with no boot again).
2300MHz all cores, 1800MHz NB/HT, 400 4-3-3-3-11 1T RAM: 32.843s
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/6...001mua0.th.png
PP: 75,539
No CDT/CW/Maxmem/theme/windows tweaks there, common windows run.
I honestly feel tempted to throw max volts/vids at -20C and try the 47x multiplier with 200 HT ref..... 9400MHz LOL :D
Do you like the wallpaper? I think it suits AOD quite nicely. :p:
OK I installed 4 sticks of crucial tracer 8000 in mine Stock 1000 5-5-5-15 2.2v. With the 9500 I could not run at 1000Mhz with 3-3-3-10 2.3 volts like I did with my 580x board. I could not use the 1066 divider(I have had this ram at 1200Mhz before). Also with a bad system OC the bios didn't reset auto like it did with DDR 800 installed.
Then I installed a X2 6400+ I could run at 1000Mhz 3-3-3-10, but at 2.4v not 2.3v(2.3 is what I used on my 580x board) to make it stable. The system did reset the bios auto if you had a bad OC with the DDR2 8000 installed.
I might be a Quad Black 9600 soon to test this on as well.
1.1 Bios
How could you run tRC10 when 11 is the lowest option on these BIOSes? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by DaMulta
It's not in mine. I'll take a pic before I go to work.
Even with Phenom installed? Do you get lower options for tRC?
Which RAM stick do you have BTW and can you post a CPUZ SPD ss?
Thanks. :)
http://img.techpowerup.org/080114/4x4.jpg
These are tracer 8000 512meg chips.
I'm not oced at all right now.....
Yes even with the 9500 installed. I don't have a ss as I sold the chip for the 6400 to play with(in which I liked the quad better), which in all has been fun. It's a tos between this chip and the FX-62 for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
I can take a ss of tRC for you tonight.
the spd of these chips
http://img.techpowerup.org/080114/spd.jpg
http://img.techpowerup.org/080113/4x4%20010526.jpg
My reply from yesterday got lost somehow. :eek:
So clocks can be modified via MSR registers too. Great, I though it must be done with i2c/smbus.Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
Will use the ITK/VTK toolkits together with CT's from the visible human project. So it will be platform indepenent and open source. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
Ordered the Big Typhoon, seems to have the best cooling results with ot so high temps.Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
Wallpaper and AOD -perfect fit :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
Fellas, download EVEREST Ultimate latest beta (AFAIK) since from what I've heard, it supports Phenom fully and it does read much information more accurately than older versions.
If you have the Fintek F71882/F71883 hardware monitoring Super I/O chip on-board then this supports reading it's sensors better (many boards, including MSI 790FX/650i/P965 etc).
The latest beta I know of is v4.20 build 1227 as of 20th December: http://www.lavalys.com/beta/everestu...lnzh2xsqaf.zip
You can see the difference of beta build 1227 in my stock 9600 BE stress testing compared to 1183 beta:
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/8...loadye0.th.png - http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6...ldevhj1.th.png
Those are ~4 hr full load temps at stock settings with the lowest fan speed. As you can see, it is stable at 1.192V/1.184V real and 1.2VID. Software picks up those voltages correctly so when it was previously failing bootup the problem was 1.184V BIOS was 1.17xV real.
Temperatures reported in AOD are IHS case temps whilst the highest one there is the internal core temp (off the Tjunction diode). K10 has 8 new thermal diodes inside the cores and 6 separate ones in the northbridge alone. EVEREST now reports both, the highest value reported is the one that decides CPU throttling and shut down (75C).
EVEREST now also picks up Phenom values, RAM timings and DCT modes correctly:
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/3...rectnb8.th.png
Since documentation was short for the exact Super I/O IC on this MB, I measured the various voltages and currents. The Fintek chip takes 10mA at 3.24V and pin ~97 is VCore, pins ~96-92 read different values usually picked up as VIN1/2/3/4.. and one of them is also the DRAM voltage (which HWM picks up). On my board, measuring just after the MOSFETs and the inductors compared to what the Super I/O chip reports is dead on, including measuring VDIMM at the DRAM MOSFETs being in sync. HWMonitor and EVEREST read exactly those values real-time, whereas AOD reads the BIOS/AOD set voltage values instead of real-time. Thus in reality I'm at 1.18V and 2.18V in the above stability testing. ;)
I have the 8500 with the same SPD. I don't get those low options that I wanted though and I've flashed different BIOSes over 14 times. :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by DaMulta
Hehe :DQuote:
Originally Posted by justapost
Not too sure yet.Quote:
So clocks can be modified via MSR registers too. Great, I though it must be done with i2c/smbus.
Should work out very fine this way. Let me know when you have an alpha to test. :DQuote:
Will use the ITK/VTK toolkits together with CT's from the visible human project. So it will be platform indepenent and open source. :cool:
You have too much money. :p:Quote:
Ordered the Big Typhoon, seems to have the best cooling results with ot so high temps.
I thought so too. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Swanie
i noticed yesterday that sometimes when CPUz read the cpu volts it reports the VID or the Voltage, and is never wrong as long as you read what it labels the value at. so why does cpuz sometimes read one or the other, and not the voltage every time?
I'm not sure TBH. It will read the values you set rather than the idle/load real values though. Check them against EVEREST/HWM.
Dual channel on GBHZ pc6400 2x1gb max benchable about 237x11 , ht 5x, NB around 1800, ram at around 800 using a divider 1.41 vcore, supier pi 1mb slower then a opty 170 at 30 sec, 16080 in 3dmark 05 200 points less then opty 170 again, havnt been able to figure if this ram is not work it or what it seemed to have done better with 5 5 5 18 ram instead of 4 4 4 12, ocz vs g-skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
You said the IMC on this thing sucks and that I can agree. Has you tried running really loose ram timings and see if it helps FSB and cpu clocks?
do you normaly used the cpu muilt at x2 in pstates? instead of divided by one?
what about the NB muilt? same thing divided by 1 or 2 or 4 or 8.
I'm wondering if the higher dividers might help out?
CPU Temp is TMPIN0 it seems. Same speedfan reports as Temp1 and the same Asus PcProbe report as CPU Temp.Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
I did some research for the clockchip of the tyan board i had for a while. Found docs for the clockchips with smbus registers.Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
Can't be MSR registers, as those are locatet on the cpu, but there might be a pci interface for the chipset which can be used to modify the ref HT speed.
Just guessin here.
For sure i will but it might take some time.Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
Cheaper than the CNPS9700 and ~3Euro more than the Thermalright Ultra-120 here.Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
Which BIOS did you use?Quote:
Originally Posted by jonspd
I can't drop NB multi on mine below 9x, I get a no boot situation. Thus I can't test HT ref. max or single core or multi-core max because NB rises along with it. At 10x CPU multi and 9x NB/HT multi (1.34V), 230HT was easy: http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc.php?id=297594
But it crashed on 236 HT (NB stock volts/VID was over 2.1GHz by then).
Yep. But no real point since I booted/ran 560 4-4-4-4 with ease at the same RAM volts (2.2V) before, hence I can't see how 400 4-4-4-12 on RAM at 2.2V will hold it back. The Phenoms before this I've benched 530 4-4-4-4 2T at these volts (3D). I mean, we're talking about this RAM at 2.35V here. :)Quote:
You said the IMC on this thing sucks and that I can agree. Has you tried running really loose ram timings and see if it helps FSB and cpu clocks?
If I set a high FID/DID, I get a no boot situation. Can you set a high FID/DID and bootup?Quote:
do you normaly used the cpu muilt at x2 in pstates? instead of divided by one?
I use 1 for both because of the above reason.Quote:
what about the NB muilt? same thing divided by 1 or 2 or 4 or 8.
Load your CPU and see if it goes up in sync then. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by justapost
TMPIN0 is HWM/AOD reported temp, right?
On the M3A it does and looking on your screeny it seems to be the same on the K9A2 P. I'm sure about AOD dont have HWM installed but I remember it was the same. I wonder why AOD shows the diode temp four times as there is only one diode for the cores. :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
Bios
113 that you sugested gonna try 1.3 as soon as they come out for stability reasons....
I have not tried high fid/did either thus the reason why I asked...
Right know I'm figuring out what I can fold it at. After that I want to test all probably combinations. As you said yourself you can only use did 1 I'm gonna try all others....
Achim, there are many diodes there but the temp readings are all in sync, as if they were only reading two diodes. TMPIN0 is the hottest part of the core but it was different with my 9500, that reported it as chipset temperature. :shrug:
1.3 will probably have the errata patch too jonspd. :(
Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
correct but I would rather gain stability then performance at this time also I can't hardly even touch the fsb on most muilts above 12.
Yeah guys, I think I experienced the TLB bug and if its true, its different to a normal instability freeze/reboot. :(
Stock everything (passes P95 fully for hours on end), can do everything usually but whilst gaming (Urban Terror), Firefox running, Thunderbird running and VMWare workstation running, no BIOS patch, it suddenly topped out at 175W load locking at that, the screen went black (no picture) and it kept 175W (AC) constant until I reset. No reboot, a clear lockup.
I didn't get this with the patched BIOS I was running before a few hours back and I've been doing this same scenario since I got the BE every day. Hmmm.
well even with or with out the patch I would guess for it to be stable around 2.4 and almost the same as having a 4 core opteron at 2.85ghz (939 like scores IMO)
Any word on it the patch via bios or via software is better?
is there a software patch?
That's about what I figured because running 2 cores on both a 2.4 Phenom and a 2.8 5600 the Phenom was a tad faster. It also looks like we have a ceiling at around 2.4 - 2.5 from what I gather. I've seen other numbers floating around but from what I gather those 2.5-2.7G ocs are not completely stable.Quote:
Originally Posted by jonspd
Jonspd, IIRC your stepping was close to mine (although mine is not a BE)....
These settings folded so long I started worrying about my electric bill and turned it off (the Carbon Footprint thing, ya know..:) )
It ran for 4+ days and it never stuttered, it's still my everyday setting...
I didn't pay close attention, but the WU's were clicking off in well under a 24 hours....
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...Stable0108.jpg
I really wish someone with an "074# MPMW" that was just looking for stability would try these settings... At least for me, these seem to be pretty well tweaked... I call it 2.5.. hehe... ;)
KTE... Just know that I would never doubt you Bro!!! :D
But I thought a TBL Error generated a "Machine Check Code"... :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
Wouldn't be anything new if I was misinformed... :rolleyes:
It does ... but not all machine checks get reported to the OS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daveburt714
OK so this is just very brief. Built the system today, using the Asus board (M3A32-MVP Deluxe), 2 sticks of DDR2-800 CL5, and a 3870 card. Booted to 2.6 Ghz, stock voltage, no problems was able to run several benchmarks (Cinbench R9.5 and R10, no lockups), ran Everest stability (CPU+FPU+Cache) for about 15 mintutes. Could boot to 2.7 GHz but could not run some benches completely, R9.5 completed but R10 did not.Quote:
Originally Posted by KTE
I have not attempted to stress test for stability at this clock yet, so don't get too excited at 2.6 :) ... it is late, I will be posting CPUID shots, and validations in the next few days.
EDIT: Oh, yeah... using cruddy cooler, the AMD stock cooler that came with CPU and the pre-applied TIM. So 2.7 is almost certain, 2.8 likely (I hope). Oh yeah, BIOS is 503 -- dated 11/12/07. Asus did not implement TLB patch until 701 from what I understand.
Jack
You can check the MSR register C0010015h with CrystalCPU's MSR Editor. If the last hex is 8h the patch is applied if it's 0h it's patch free.Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpingJack
Thanks.... will do. I had noticed your hack/info but did not read too much up on it. I need to go back and re-read what you have uncovered.Quote:
Originally Posted by justapost
Jack
Patch free. M3A32-MVP Deluxe Bios 503 does not have the patch.Quote:
Originally Posted by justapost
Thanks again.
not the best pic but here you go testing higher then this now. http://www.jonspd.com/jonspd_uploads...10k%20.JPG
http://www.jonspd.com/jonspd_uploads...s/untitled.JPG
btw I cant change NB vid according to HWmonitor...
No AOD here guys just bios
249x10.5 1.44 vcore, 5x ht
1:2 ram all timing ram settings auto at 2.20
pstates
5
008
1
4
18
1
Power consumption for this system at stock
At 28°C ambient.Code:CPU 2.3GHz @ 1.192V, 1.2VID
NB 1.8GHz @ 1.25VID
HT 1.8GHz @ 1.1V
2x 1GB RAM 800 @ 2.2V
HSF 1289RPM @ 5V - 400mA
Sapphire HD 2600 XT 800/700 @ 1.26V/DK
2x SATA II WD Caviar SE 80GB
Antec Earthwatts 430W
Hibernate = 9W AC (probably at like 50% efficiency :p:)
Standby = 65W AC
Idle (no CnQ) = 100W AC
Load (P95 large-FFT) = 175W AC
Load GPU (ATi Tool) = 150W AC
Max. software load = 172W AC w/ Everest FPU Julia
Ever wondered what loads the processor the most with stability software? Look at the above software I included, there's a very good hint. The stability testers with high power draw/heat creation are typically computations taking place inside the FPU units of the processor. ;)
100% load in them is extremely rarely achieved in real-life work and 75% of that load is usually achieved by intensive gaming loads.
Temperatures
A few things I'd like to mention quickly with the new Penryn/Phenom strange temperatures around.
Typical case/heatsink ambient is not sub 30°C, it is 30°C-45°C and don't forget about the far East, South East Asia, Africa, Australia, Middle East, South Americas, many parts of EU/US, with 30-50°C summers. This isn't Canada or America, it's the World Wide Web (lol). I travel frequently to many destinations, so I'm aware what is realistic and what isn't for case temps. SoCal would boil for over 5 months plus 30°C inside temps, let alone what your ICs inside a case will give off and make the case ambient. ;)
For instance. When Core 2 was released, I don't know how many of you remember and know the fact that while it needed a lower power consumption than P4 it also had a ~10°C (60-61.4°C) lower max CPU temperature limit (Tc), which meant you still needed the equivalent class cooling to keep it within Intel specs. For X6800/75W TDP it was 60.4°C max and the E6000/65W TDP 4MB lineup it was 60.1°C max (IIRC). For Phenom 9500/9600 95W TDP this limit is 70°C.
Hence, this is the thermal resistance your cooler needs to keep that TDP within AMDs operating specs assuming ambient heatsink is 28°C:
(70-28)/95 = 0.442°C/W
Let me translate that for you: it means the heatsink/CPU needs to be a maximum of 0.442°C hotter than the surrounding air for every 1Watt of heat being dissipated to stay within the thermal specifications of the processor. ;)
We can check processor temperature accuracy to a certain degree this way you know. I need a minimum of that to stay below the CPU max safety limit. Well, let's throw in what my system/monitoring devices were telling me the CNPS9700 at lowest fanspeed was getting at 28°C ambient.
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/8...loadye0.th.pngCode:(Bja = (Tj — Ta)/Ph)
(41-28)/95 = 0.158°C/W
Seems about right that, since Zalman 9500 AT at low-full speed has a specified thermal resistance of 0.16-0.12°C/W. :)
With a BE? That would be easy to replicate with mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daveburt714
One very good thing to know is, stability is not a factor of "consistent high static load", just like with PSUs it isn't, although that is also tested, but it's mainly a factor of "consistent fluctuating dynamic loads". This is more stressful on any individual circuitry (hence why power cycling degrades over time).
I'm not sure myself, but a hard-lock doesn't have to give any error in actual fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daveburt714
Firstly, I've been doing these same tasks every day with the BE with the patched BIOS and nothing happened.
Secondly, like I said, P95 etc could not generate this at all and I stressed for around 28 hours at 2.3GHz/2.5GHz/2.4GHz.
Thirdly, what is it if not a CPU error, and if that, which other error do users around have at stock settings when they can run every bench/pass every stability test?
I'll refresh my memory up on TLB errata again though.
The processor switched off sending information and locked up, hence why the screen blacked out. I've never seen it happen before and I do know quite a bit about Windows workings. I honestly see this as the bug manifested.
Happened twice now in the same situation. Can't reproduce it when I'm looking for it but when I don't want it to occur. From my observations, after loading the same applications, it occurs after 35 or so minutes under dynamic/high loads when a very high load spike occurs, i.e., P95 in-place large FFT max value reached is 175W AC but during these workloads loads, the max it spiked at momentarily was 183W AC after which it fell to 175W AC constant lockup). My power lines are perfect, don't worry, +5V and +3.3V doesn't even fluctuate idle>load>idle and +12V fluctuates -0.03/0.04V from +12.01V to +11.97/11.98V to +12.01V idle>load>idle (on the 4-pin CPU +12V rail) and PSU exhaust grill temperature is 37°C.
Not that I know of.Quote:
Originally Posted by jonspd
Super Pi isn't anything to go by fully being only a memory intensive mathematical algorithm based on approximating the AGM, but can be used to show if there is any difference in the underlying core at equal speeds, since it is single threaded. For instance, Penryn (non-QX) finishes Spi1M @ 3601MHz in 12.797s and C2Q at the same settings does it in 14s. An efficiency value of 46,082 for Yorkfield verses 50,414 for Kentsfield.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaCajun
X2 and Phenom @ 2640MHz, same multi/HT ref., RAM as far as possible;
X2 finishes in 33.125s and Phenom finishes in 28.671s. An efficiency value of 75,691 for K10 verses 87,450 for rev.G2 K8. In 8M the difference is 25seconds. So, there are improvements, just not enough to win an industry lead or level up with a very good core fore-running architecture (C2) from a very inefficient one (Netburst).
My 9600 BE is 2530MHz as stable as you can have (nothing more though - I need the errata patch though and that makes it like a 9000, so it's best to run stock :( ).Quote:
It also looks like we have a ceiling at around 2.4 - 2.5 from what I gather. I've seen other numbers floating around but from what I gather those 2.5-2.7G ocs are not completely stable.
My 9500 was 2750-2700MHz stable, this setting was the best and I ran/benched/tested it many many times at least for 4 weeks, and 2640MHz or better, 265x10 (2650MHz) (can't find ss) was every day at stock volts bootup and running fine. The problem with 2.7GHz was, I didn't like using 1.392V which is what I need for perfect stability and preferred 1.240V speeds.
My other two 9600 were not even 2500MHz stable. 1st is around 2400MHz and 2nd would be a little more, possibly around 2440MHz.
Let me explain why this is horror oc'ing> the thing with Phenom to note is this procedure which will be common for many:
*Get your high MHz, get your valids, get your benches, be happy you didn't get a dud, expect more because that was rushed. Then, stress test it until it passes your highest stable. I expect many to get 2.7GHz stable with a lucky shot (non BE).
*Then, restart after many hours whilst you think it's perfect and change the settings, to a lower V/MHz value. Run that for a day or two.
*Next go back in to oc'ing it at bootup with the same settings you had before or through trying AOD.
*Now, most of the time, you won't be able to replicate it, you might even not get a bootup at those settings anymore. Hence what we all have been saying since 2 months.
*Then, on a passing day while you've given up, you try a quick oc.... and you get 2.8GHz 3D benchable stock volts. :D
*You back down to 2750MHz and stress it to hell. It passes perfectly. You run it for a day until you reboot. You try those settings at bootup, no POST. You try higher volts at those settings, no POST. You try max everything incl. cooling but a 100MHz lower than those settings, no POST. You try 300MHz lower, no POST. You try 100MHz higher than stock, no POST. :(
Other times, pay attention here, it isn't the clock speed which messes everything up, it's high VID/high voltage (above 1.265VID and 1.35V ish). You can at many times get far higher stable at stock volts than higher than stock volts, I've seen it and so has Dave. At other times it's the clock generator which messes everything up by randomly throwing a core or the IMC at 100Mhz higher than current speed. And yet even more, at other times you get a perfect boot but ATi drivers screw everything up at the time they're supposed to be loading. :down:
Hence why it is very difficult to say anything when someone says "whats max stable?" I've done 2772MHz on the 9500 2hr stability pass at 1.4V 1.2VID, but that wasn't possible after that one time.
Nice. Hope it passes benchmarking and stability OK, I'd like you to pick a MHz and stress test it first, then boot with it for a few days, then game and do some intensive real work. Just to eliminate and distinguish if your CPU behaves the same as what we're seeing -- or if what we're seeing maybe a MB thing (doubt it).Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpingJack
A few details we'd want from you though: stock CPU VID, stock NB VID, stock CPU VCore (idle/load), stock temps, power if you can, ambient temps, voltage/settings needed for booting,
TBVH with you all, I've backed out trying to oc 9600 BE since the stock volts 2530MHz, when I saw that it had 2.6GHz running but required volts/vid which made it pull 225W AC more than stock idling, and 347W AC more when in full load. My PSU would trip at that point so I didn't continue until I can change the PSU once again to something even more beefier. 430W is not enough for the amps available on the +12V with a low end card. :(
Look at it this way, the comparison;
Q6600 G0 95W TDP having 582m transistors in 286mm² at 65nm and Tc at 71°C -> x power consumption, x core voltage, x core current, x thermal resistance needed and x core temperatures with a Zalman 9700.
Phenom 9500/9600 95W TDP having 450m transistors in 285mm² at 65nm and Tc at 70°C -> tad higher power consumption, lower core voltage, similar current, same thermal resistance needed but lower core temperatures.
K8 rev.G2 5000+ 65W TDP having 154m transistors in 126mm² at 65nm and Tc 55-68°C.
So going from 65nm native dual to native quad, voltage has remained similar, transistor count is tripling, Tc has increased rather than decreased and TDP is 30W higher (with a 300MHz deficit).
Phenom 96500/9600 core requires 19A -> for 2.3GHz at 1.192/1.232V/1.240V.
X2 5000+ core requires 24A -> for 2.6GHz at 1.350V.
*Dual MCM would theoretically be 130W TDP for 2.6GHz.
Phenom 9900 is 140W TDP for 2.6GHz.
X2 5000+ BE, most cores can do 3300MHz 1.35V stable.
Speed:
3300/2600 = 27%
x by 2300 = 2967MHz
TDP:
65 x 3300/2600 = 82.5W TDP
95 x 2967/2300 = 122.55W TDP
If it could scale at stock amps/volts.
But it can't. So let's feed it the voltages and amps that X2 65nm needed for 3.3GHz.
*Amps:
24 x 4 = 96A
96 x 1.35V = 130W TDP
But at 130W with Phenom, you still only get ~2.4GHz whereas you'd have 3.3GHz with 2x rev.G2 X2 MCM.
Using figures of what 130W TDP K10 and 82W TDP X2 rev.G2 gives us respectively for clock speeds; MHz/Watt oc'd ->
82.5W x 2 = 165W TDP
Rev.G2: 40 MHz/W (2600) - 40 MHz/W (3300)
↑ MCM: 20 MHz/W (2600) - 20 MHz/W (3300)
K10: 24.2 MHz/W (2300) - 18.46 MHz/W (2400)
So to put it clearer for you all, K10 core 65nm compared to K8 core 65nm is worse in overclock/frequency at the same TDP. :(
I'm going to make a short list of the problems/bugs I'm experiencing which could possibly cause the odd processor behavior I'm seeing with this setup, and really messes the oc'ing:
-Cannot change NB FID lower than 9x/CPU FID above 12x through the BIOS: lockup.
-Cannot put high VID on NB/high VID on CPU through BIOS.
-Cannot have high VID/volt bootup.
-Cannot have low NB/CPU VID.
-Cannot have a plus 12.5x CPU FID even in Windows at low HT.
-Cannot boot plus 220HT reference at any volts.
-Cannot boot using NB/CPU DID.
-Cannot have 1066 RAM without errata patch.
-Random lockups.
-Random RD790 clock generator lockups.
-ATi display driver causing problems loading Windows (any of the last 4)
-ATi drivers make GPU load 50% at stock idle at desktop (thus fan is always running high and temps high - doesn't happen with X2/C2D/C2Q).
jonspd: Yep that's definitely possible. My chip should get to that with 12x NB multiplier (has done) .. but just take a look at the power consumption/load temps with those VIDs/Volts. It's scary. :eek:
Check AMD Power Monitor for your NB VID, it will be around 1.3 I think.
Well at the end I found that all the stuff I found was in the Revision Guide since 09/07.Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpingJack
http://www.abload.de/thumb/bdkgis5.jpg
Only two bit's in two MSR registers apply the tlb-patch. :rolleyes:
KTE I'm at the same as in pic but 250 instead of 248 around 2 hours priming now and ran a 3dmark 05 after 30mins into prime.
Do you think I should try 10x instead of 10.5?
don't really want to touch anything right now.
Also what about HT link and nb freq do you think I should rasie them?
I have 1.325 and 1.375 the 1 after it turns red, can I go up on the NB and HT vids? my ambient case temp is about 28C and loaded cpu is at 50.
Sorry for all the questions I'm just not sure what to do ATM.
Why not try 11x?Quote:
Originally Posted by jonspd
Keeping the HT low and multi higher will be easier on your CPU/IMC/RAM.
Keep them low for now but if you can get a max stable, then restart with a higher or normal multis and see if you can still get those CPU MHz/HT ref.Quote:
Also what about HT link and nb freq do you think I should rasie them?
You're at 1.325V on the NB? :confused:Quote:
I have 1.325 and 1.375 the 1 after it turns red, can I go up on the NB and HT vids? my ambient case temp is about 28C and loaded cpu is at 50.
Yea is that to high?
according to power monitor.
11x didn't work near as well as then 10.5 has thus far. I see close to 2000mhz ht-link and 2400 nb freq a few people are runing.
to be honest I was thinking on 10x so I can try for 260 and around 1040 on the ram/
Of course, try it by all means. ;)
1.325V NB isn't too high but you might as well run N/HTB to high MHz (2.4GHz-2.6GHz) if you're at those VID settings. Otherwise 1.25VID would be enough for around 2-2.2GHz NB and the rest is just wasted heat/power.
This is with 1.35V NB VID;
http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/218...2544cw5.th.jpg
NM I guess pow monitor does work :D
what is your HT on that ?
I think you gentleman in this thread should be commended for doing such a fine job with all of this! Although I will stick with my original assumption from what I see and read and say the the current Phenom is good for stock or perhaps tops 200mhz over rated speed that you can safely get away with.
But with saying that you guys should be proud of you're selves as it is the 1% such as you're selves that help debug problems and get resolves made and whether you realize it or not all of this helps AMD and plays a very viable role in what Phenom should be and will be. So props to all of you for diligently working on this issue:toast: