Apogee GTX

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Originally Posted by IanY

Well, its a block that I will be using, come this Saturday.

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I haven't seen any pics of your setup's yet. I would be much interested in seeing some of your loops.

Let us know what you think of the GTX once you get it setup.

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Originally Posted by Nooc

you'd be hard-pressed to find on a person on this forum who recommended anything made of aluminum, blocks in particular, Ply. just accept the fact that you don't know enough about water cooling; it's pretty obvious from your comments on Koolance and aluminum ;)

I'm using an ancient Koolance NB block and it's absolute :banana::banana::banana::banana:, no question about it. It will be replaced by a zalman passive radiator in a few days. there's a piece of Koolance for you.

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Just answer this, why are there so many products out there that mix aluminum with copper and there are no problems.

Gigabyte 3d galaxy, copper block aluminum rad.
Alphacool
Aqua computer
Cooler Master aquagate series
Koolance

That's just off the top of my head. Now if there really is such a problem with corrosion there would be massive lawsuits against these companies. And by the way been water-cooling for some time, and have made many of my own blocks. Robotech even tested a early beta and found it to be quite good. And as I mentioned earlier, only had one problem with corrosion. And guess what, that one problem was totally my fault. I was short on coolant and too lazy to go to the store. Yup block corroded in just a few weeks. But that was MY mistake...


Ply

I like to post in these forums....I don not like to delete and modify posts.

Guys...please tone down your taunting and harsh words. My 14yo son trolls these forums...and I don't want to have to field questions on why this one is talking out of the side of his face. If this language continues I will close the thread...let's get back on topic...

Has anyone got a GTX yet? Tested? Mine is due any day...

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Originally Posted by Bun-Bun

Re-read Marci's post and reconsider your stand.

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This is a 'non' comment: total FUD. Instead of arguing a point you make a vague allusion to somebody else's post (without saying which one, one what subject) as if that somehow proves my entire 'stance' is wrong.

Perhaps you refer an ancient thread on Alu+Copper in loops that nobody has posted on in weeks? Perhaps you refer to the new one? Perhaps you refer to this thread? I have no way of knowing.

As for those self-destructing Swiftech blocks that were anodized Alu and a copper base that everyone complained had serious corrosion, they still lasted a year, and were still working when removed - and they were anodized not plated.

I'm talking about the general issue of Alu+Cu in loops, and you have to consider surface area and proximity: those blocks were probably approaching the absolute worst case possible. Unless you were going to (say) run a current through your coolant just to really try and get some ionization going?

Sure, non-ionic water becomes ionized with time. If you're going to run Alu+Cu it might be wise to replace that coolant often. Of course, if you also care about tube clouding or bacterial buildup, then you would be doing that anyway.

That said, I now have a 10% glycol mix in my pipes and they have gone the last three months without a hint of clouding or bacterial buildup. Guess I'm just lucky huh? Sure, I've lost some cooling efficiency, but as it happens I don't care because my machine was still stable in 40C ambient and has no overlock whatsoever. Maybe I'll worry about oclocks when I have my PAs.

However, I'm not running any mixed metals, unless you count the nickel plated barbs (lol) so I don't have a risk. Those people who installed the crazy anodized blocks should have known very well what risks they were taking, and when you go back and look at the outcome, they got a year of use of them before they became a genuine hazard (if you believe the posts), by which point they were approaching obsolete anyway - and still no catastrophic failure.

In the case of the GTX, as in the case of many other Alu+Cu combinations in a loop that could practically exist, and with appropriate coolant and maintenance, you should have no problem getting two or three years out of the setup. Do you expect this stuff to last forever? You don't expect your pump or your tubes to last like a cache of Pharoah's gold, why make unrealistic expectations of your cpu block? Chances are in two years Intel and Daamit will have moved the goalposts so far that your old block will be a poor performer anyway.

Let's see what happens a year from now when people have actually been running GTX blocks. We'll see how many had catastrophic plating failure. I anticipate that even when we do see examples of it, we can trace many of those failures back to mishandling of barbs, sloppy assembly, or dodgy coolant, and again I'll bet that's destroyed more kit than all the self-destructing anodized Alu+Cu blocks ever sold. I don't mean that there won't be any faulty manufacture, just that it will be such a minor contribution to the total failures as to be unworthy of consideration.

Sure, I'll bet the majority of posters on here haven't ever destroyed a block due to mis-assembly, but this forum isn't exactly representative of the people buying w/c kit. There are people out there who are actually surprised when their Tt gear wrecks their board. There are people out there getting dealers (who have never assembled a w/c loop in their lives) to fit their gear. There are people out there who try and wedge BSP fittings into NPSM threads, or use G type o-ring fittings where there is no o-ring lip, and so on...

I admit there's a good deal of 'speculation' in here, but it would appear that Swiftech have some numbers of their own for this stuff and they are prepared to speculate on the GTX Alu top not costing them a fortune in RMAs and lost customer confidence. Given their good record of customer service, it would seem fair to assume that they're not just expecting their customers to 'suck it up' when their (so called) military spec plating fails: they have budgeted for the failure rate, and with a block of this price and publicity profile that means they aren't expecting much in the way of failure.

Hey cool, I'm not the only crazy 14 year old eh? Well I'm not 13 yet, still got a few days to go ;) And Philly Boy, I think your son already learned his share of stuff at school ;) All kids do, sadly, and I am one of them...
Look, plating is very very durable. If I see one more BSish "the plating will come off!" I will show you my mouthpiece ;)
Plating should be better than anodized btw...

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Originally Posted by IanY

I'm glad my 11 year old sees this forum and thinks I'm nuts, and he rather study than post on a watercooling forum. So I guess I'm lucky.

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I'm just a crazy kid. I know someone who is like hella smart, and he is bored all the time. When I told him "go into computer crap" he said "no". lol. IanY, rejoice, your Pabst fans seem to be the best fans out there...

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Originally Posted by Fossil

This is a 'non' comment: total FUD. Instead of arguing a point you make a vague allusion to somebody else's post (without saying which one, one what subject) as if that somehow proves my entire 'stance' is wrong.

Perhaps you refer an ancient thread on Alu+Copper in loops that nobody has posted on in weeks? Perhaps you refer to the new one? Perhaps you refer to this thread? I have no way of knowing.

As for those self-destructing Swiftech blocks that were anodized Alu and a copper base that everyone complained had serious corrosion, they still lasted a year, and were still working when removed - and they were anodized not plated.

I'm talking about the general issue of Alu+Cu in loops, and you have to consider surface area and proximity: those blocks were probably approaching the absolute worst case possible. Unless you were going to (say) run a current through your coolant just to really try and get some ionization going?

Sure, non-ionic water becomes ionized with time. If you're going to run Alu+Cu it might be wise to replace that coolant often. Of course, if you also care about tube clouding or bacterial buildup, then you would be doing that anyway.

That said, I now have a 10% glycol mix in my pipes and they have gone the last three months without a hint of clouding or bacterial buildup. Guess I'm just lucky huh? Sure, I've lost some cooling efficiency, but as it happens I don't care because my machine was still stable in 40C ambient and has no overlock whatsoever. Maybe I'll worry about oclocks when I have my PAs.

However, I'm not running any mixed metals, unless you count the nickel plated barbs (lol) so I don't have a risk. Those people who installed the crazy anodized blocks should have known very well what risks they were taking, and when you go back and look at the outcome, they got a year of use of them before they became a genuine hazard (if you believe the posts), by which point they were approaching obsolete anyway - and still no catastrophic failure.

In the case of the GTX, as in the case of many other Alu+Cu combinations in a loop that could practically exist, and with appropriate coolant and maintenance, you should have no problem getting two or three years out of the setup. Do you expect this stuff to last forever? You don't expect your pump or your tubes to last like a cache of Pharoah's gold, why make unrealistic expectations of your cpu block? Chances are in two years Intel and Daamit will have moved the goalposts so far that your old block will be a poor performer anyway.

Let's see what happens a year from now when people have actually been running GTX blocks. We'll see how many had catastrophic plating failure. I anticipate that even when we do see examples of it, we can trace many of those failures back to mishandling of barbs, sloppy assembly, or dodgy coolant, and again I'll bet that's destroyed more kit than all the self-destructing anodized Alu+Cu blocks ever sold. I don't mean that there won't be any faulty manufacture, just that it will be such a minor contribution to the total failures as to be unworthy of consideration.

Sure, I'll bet the majority of posters on here haven't ever destroyed a block due to mis-assembly, but this forum isn't exactly representative of the people buying w/c kit. There are people out there who are actually surprised when their Tt gear wrecks their board. There are people out there getting dealers (who have never assembled a w/c loop in their lives) to fit their gear. There are people out there who try and wedge BSP fittings into NPSM threads, or use G type o-ring fittings where there is no o-ring lip, and so on...

I admit there's a good deal of 'speculation' in here, but it would appear that Swiftech have some numbers of their own for this stuff and they are prepared to speculate on the GTX Alu top not costing them a fortune in RMAs and lost customer confidence. Given their good record of customer service, it would seem fair to assume that they're not just expecting their customers to 'suck it up' when their (so called) military spec plating fails: they have budgeted for the failure rate, and with a block of this price and publicity profile that means they aren't expecting much in the way of failure.

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EDIT: Can not find the post atm... it was in this thread unless I just lost my mind... basically the jist is he has used a lot of different blocks that have had aluminum in them (anodized plated whatever) with proper additive and they all coroded within 18 months.

EDIT2: I apologize fossil. It was not in this thread I mixed them up. But here is the post (and thread) I was referring to.

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Originally Posted by Marci

Hard to tell what's solder and what isn't there...

My Swiftech blocks all ended up the same as yours despite running 10% Zerex / 90% distilled and flushing/refilling with fresh mixture every 6 months... MCW462, MCW5002, MCW20, MCW40... all the same... DD original Ali Top'd Maze4 likewise... Innovatek Rev3 CPU Block likewise...

All anodised... anti-corrosive additive used precisely to manufacturer's mix ratio for proper protection rather than clear-tubing... all still corroded within 18 months. The swiftech blocks ended up with corrosive pits around half a mm deep iirc... s'why back then I went with dangerden - no aluminium used at all...

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Originally Posted by serialk11r

Hey cool, I'm not the only crazy 14 year old eh? Well I'm not 13 yet, still got a few days to go ;) And Philly Boy, I think your son already learned his share of stuff at school ;) All kids do, sadly, and I am one of them...
Look, plating is very very durable. If I see one more BSish "the plating will come off!" I will show you my mouthpiece ;)
Plating should be better than anodized btw...

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Hey, serial, defects happen. Go grab a Quality Control and Statistics in manufacturing textbooks.

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Originally Posted by Bun-Bun

Hey, kid, defects happen. Go grab a Quality Control and Statistics in manufacturing textbooks.

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Lol, kinda lame argument don't you think? Of course defects happen, in any industry. So what is your point???


Ply

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Originally Posted by Plywood99

Lol, kinda lame argument don't you think? Of course defects happen, in any industry. So what is your point???


Ply

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Lame argument? I think not. I do not want to chance corrosion in my loop. The loop I am building I plan to run for 4 years with only the occasional coolant flush every couple months.

You know, what's really going to be cool, is a few months from now after the GTX has been out, and there will be no reports of corrosion from the plating "popping" off. And all the doom-sayers and naysayers will hop back on the ole soapbox and still proclaim it "could" happen.

Sheesh, I'm truly surprised you guys function in daily life...


Ply

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Originally Posted by Plywood99

You know, what's really going to be cool, is a few months from now after the GTX has been out, and there will be no reports of corrosion from the plating "popping" off. And all the doom-sayers and naysayers will hop back on the ole soapbox and still proclaim it "could" happen.

Sheesh, I'm truly surprised you guys function in daily life...


Ply

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Few months sure... what about two years? Lets see then.

I function greatly in daily life... and let me tell you I don't replace things as often as other people do due to things like "wear" and "corrosion".

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Originally Posted by IanY

Aww man, you guys just give it a rest. You aren't the ones buying the GTX, so stop complaining and bickering!

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Ok...

I thought you didn't post after work ;)

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Originally Posted by IanY

Aww man, you guys just give it a rest. You aren't the ones buying the GTX, so stop complaining and bickering!

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Actually, looking for a cpu block now. Been using my homemade ones for some time, but I need something small and compact like the 1u block from Swiftech. Too lazy to make my own again...:(


ply

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Originally Posted by IanY

Even if it starts rusting, it'll happen more than a year from now. By then, I would have had the block opened two to three times and would have changed water at least 10 times. Its a non-issue.

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Granted you change a lot more then Marci did, Marci still had problems with regular changes.

And I would rather not tear down the loop just to open the block because I'm worried about corrosion.

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Originally Posted by IanY

I'm used to it. I opened up my Storm blocks every three months without fail. I changed my tubing every six months. Part and parcel of the hobby.

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You gotta start getting some 1 inch barbs and 1 inch wire reinforced polyurethane tubes!

Will everyone please stop this about the plating? I was in the military. Mil spec plating can run in a loop for 10+ years with no issue as long as the plating process is consistant. Please folks...I will close this thread if this bickering continues.

When it comes down to it at the end of the day the GTX for most of us who own AMD or a "E" series C2D will see less than 1c difference in temps between the GT and the GTX. And that's with a perfectly mounted block on a lapped CPU. Some...prolly most...will not see any difference. Only when you take a Kentsfield (QX6700, Q6600 or the Xeon X3210, X3220 or X3230) and run the vcore up past 1.55-1.6 volts and clock it up to really heat things up will the differences widen a bit to be approx 1c-1.5c. I know this for fact....

To get a significantly higher CPU clock you'd need to lower your temps by 10-12c. I did this with my cold air induction box and saw significantly better temps from the colder air cooling the water to 5-6c below room ambient.

OK, let the mountain of disagreement commence......lol!

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Originally Posted by Philly_Boy

Will everyone please stop this about the plating? I was in the military. Mil spec plating can run in a loop for 10+ years with no issue as long as the plating process is consistant. Please folks...I will close this thread if this bickering continues.

When it comes down to it at the end of the day the GTX for most of us who own AMD or a "E" series C2D will see less than 1c difference in temps between the GT and the GTX. And that's with a perfectly mounted block on a lapped CPU. Some...prolly most...will not see any difference. Only when you take a Kentsfield (QX6700, Q6600 or the Xeon X3210, X3220 or X3230) and run the vcore up past 1.55-1.6 volts and clock it up to really heat things up will the differences widen a bit to be approx 1c-1.5c. I know this for fact....

To get a significantly higher CPU clock you'd need to lower your temps by 10-12c. I did this with my cold air induction box and saw significantly better temps from the colder air cooling the water to 5-6c below room ambient.

OK, let the mountain of disagreement commence......lol!

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:clap:
I still don't understand why the aluminum is there but oh well...
I don't see how the plating could ever encounter enough friction to get rubbed off anyways.

I went back and took another look at the specs for the housing of the GTX.

1) There's a 5 year limited warranty, the limitations are: mechanical damage(s), die discoloration.

2) The plating is two layer zinc-cobalt and nickel, presumably the zinc-cobalt is the layer closest to the Alu because they would want the shiny nickel on the outside.

There's a code number for the zinc-cobalt plating but I didn't have much success getting any info on it. Perhaps someone with more time might do better.

There are patents for highly sophisticated, galvanic corrosion platings of this dual layer type (strictly triple layer platings as I understand it as there is also a raw zinc layer) with these metals, so it's possible, even likely that Swiftech have gone that way. Under ideal conditions zinc plating would protect Alu even if scratched or damaged, I'm not entirely sure if the zinc-cobalt + nickel would perform as well, but zinc-plating of Alu is a very well established technique and has worked for the auto industry, construction, piping and electronic devices in the past.

It's not risk of corrosion that would put me off this product, but the fact it offers no obvious benefit over the FuZion I have on order :)

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Originally Posted by Fossil

It's not risk of corrosion that would put me off this product, but the fact it offers no obvious benefit over the FuZion I have on order :)

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here is the plating treatment sequence :

Wash/degrease
Caustic Etch
Acid Etch
De-oxydizer
Zincate primer
Electroless Nickel plating 12 micron
Zinc-cobalt plating 6 micron
Black die

Gabe may I ask what the aluminum is for? The "heatsink" obviously won't be doing much cooling. It seems as if you guys were trying to come up with a cheap way to make a metal top...which doesn't make any sense, given that the block is 75 dollars.

A five year warranty, heck I could not go that long without wanting to change something. When everything is running smooth for me it gets boring. The way that our industry is moving with new toys coming out almost daily it is an addict's dream. :)

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Originally Posted by SiGfever

A five year warranty, heck I could not go that long without wanting to change something. When everything is running smooth for me it gets boring. The way that our industry is moving with new toys coming out almost daily it is an addict's dream. :)

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Yea, I have a feeling that after I get all this junk I have finished, up and running, I'll get bored real fast.

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Originally Posted by serialk11r

Gabe may I ask what the aluminum is for? The "heatsink" obviously won't be doing much cooling. It seems as if you guys were trying to come up with a cheap way to make a metal top...which doesn't make any sense, given that the block is 75 dollars.

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Exactly, and its not even worth it to chance it because there is little to no performance gain. Why bother going through the trouble of military spec plating when you could just use a different material. Ooh we can use expensive manufacturing methods and raise the price for next to no performance gain yet ditch the Storm due to higher production costs... And I wasn't referring to plating rubbing off. I was referring to defects.

Gabe, as long as you keep an aluminum free block, I will still think highly of your company.