I'm glad someone important in XS says what you're saying. Big :clap: to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by k|ngp|n
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I'm glad someone important in XS says what you're saying. Big :clap: to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by k|ngp|n
Indeed :up: Rather strange 180 degree turnaround isnt it....
Unfortunately the "driver and his skills" plays a big part in how high the frequency can be taken in the case of overclocking so the analogy, while convenient, doesnt fully apply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dualist
Spot on Loc.o :shakes:Quote:
Originally Posted by loc.o
ou la la ... Mister KP, please check by yourself before making funny statements ... I am getting a lot of emails of people successfully OCing the 975 at much higher frequency than what you personally archived at GOOC ... Thomas in Europe already got 5.6Ghz stable with ... a non hand picked part. (And NO, he did not get this one from me, I am re-enforcing a policy, that does include myself)Quote:
Originally Posted by k|ngp|n
Are you telling me that you did less with the supposely hand picked part of GOOC than Thomas with this regular Ci7 975 ? That would be a pretty sad statements on your own capability ...
May be this is what you are affraid ... losing your special samples and actually show that you are equal to others ...
Let's make the ground equal for everybody, even for you mister Kingpin.
By the way, I started overclocking probably close to the time you started walking ...
Thanks for elevating the debate on how to make this a serious and Fair contest, I understand that you have your own agenda, push it aside, and do the right thing.
It look like when you get into contest where the play ground is levelled, Charles wins ... is it your concern? hehehehehe ... just kidding!
Francois
Quote:
Originally Posted by k|ngp|n
Vince I think you are trying to refer to Francois and Charles were showing the 965 last December, but please remember for the getgo he has been saying that manufacturers demo are useless in his opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
I got the pleasure of talking a lot with Francois about this issue druing CES and GOOC LA and he has been very very clear to me about how he feels that things would quickly out of handQuote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
From what I understand the handpicked CPUs for GOOC were certainly supposed to be good CPUs - but his main concern was trying to get a evenly match set of CPUs to avoid mayor discrepancies between what the teams have to work with at GOOC.
Francois has privately demostrated how easily he could show insane CPU clocks with a few tricks - nothing that would ever be feasible for retail.
From what I heard from Fugger he is 100% serious about his stance - whether we want to fully believe this or not will quickly show in the future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by k|ngp|n
I was looking forward seeing you bench 3Dmark06 with EVGA board - wait - I don't think EVGA has a board that has onboard graphics - right ???? :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
I truly do like every over clocker on all teams and many are huge assets to this sport, including DrWho? from Intel, AMD and other manufactures.
It would be a true shame to start up something here that may divide teams and people who make this sport so great, between us and the manufactures. If we can just wait and see how this thing rolls out before making any decisions if its good or bad.
I do have a bad feeling that this might pull clockers and manufactures apart in one way or another and begin to limit access by benchers who already have sponsors and those of us who are trying really hard to be noticed by our skills.
I am just saying is all....
you can check with Thomas, I did not provide any CPU to anybody since GOOC, and the GOOC 2009 CPU were taken out of the sample queue of the Ci7 975.
He did not get this CPU from me.
I am going to bed, I hope I will wake up only with few knifes in my back! take it easy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckeye
well said
You are probably referrring to the post I had just deleted - I only heard some rumors that he gotten his CPU from youQuote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
+1 its a very good point :clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeguava
Entirely agreed. F1 is not something that we want to even begin to compare to regular overclockers. FFS an F1 racecar is more expensive than most supercars... and even those are 1 in a million.Quote:
Originally Posted by massman
Actually, they have a few ;) :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeguava
ouch :p: I was laughing too earlyQuote:
Originally Posted by Russian
This is getting totally out of hand ... It's just TOO confusing :(
There are even better samples out there than Thomas' chip ... retail, non-hand-picked. But that's really not the issue here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
If we're talking about evening up the playing field within the F1 overclocking league, so that it would be interesting not only for manufacturers and tech enthousiasts, but also for the overclockers in that competition. As far as I can see, there have been three suggestions on this topic:
1) Limit the frequency of the cpu's => manufacturers and tech enthousiasts will be less interested + the whole point of this competition is to go as fast as possible.
2) Only use retail samples => F1 competition will just be what Hwbot is now, only using different team names and with some backup by the manufacturer. However, if it's the same like hwbot, we don't need something new, hence competition is pointless.
3) Let processor manufacturers (Intel, AMD ... Via -lol-) provide each team a few cherry-picked samples => apparently against the will of Intel (new policy)
If I'm not mistaken, what you're trying to say here is that retail samples should be used because they represent what's available on the market. But, since 5.6G (yes, even 6G) is available on the market, why is it not possible for Intel to provide the teams competing in this competition with chips that can do this frequency for sure. Eliminate the factor luck and money by providing those chips, much like you did on GOOC (brilliant move).
No one is asking for hand-picked 7GHz 3D stable i7 samples, but since this is an F1 competition, or at least supposed to be, is it too much to ask for the top-shelf samples to be used? Or how does that violate your new policy?
Oh, and much like the postcount on forums, the number of years you've spent overclocking doesn't matter. The scene you see here on XS and on a bigger scale on Hwbot has evolved from the pure matter of overclocking to get more performance to a scene that cares about numbers, about benchmark scores. Please tell me, how much time of your life have you been benchmarking in competition with more than just your family, friends and neighbours?
And ... oh please, don't talk about agenda's.
If Francois thinks they're pointless, he shouldn't have been doing them in the first place. The fact that he did, shows he believed the demo has its purpose.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeguava
I agree not to mention the BS is getting thick.....I need to strap on my timberlands now.
What I get from a particular persons comments is........Intel is not seeding chips anymore ever......
Now I need my waders the timberlands aren't gonna cut it......
All OC should be on air or water......whats the matter with a little cold?
Last I checked this is XS not stock systems.org.....nor is this event called Smart car OC comp......
However I read into the little comments that have nothing to do with this thread.....you slander a company who "has time to bin through chips".
Like intel doesn't bin..............really now? So all those diff models you have are picked by sheer guesswork?
Sorry big guy I've been BS'd by experts....guess what your not one of them.....
Its no secret you guys know the electricals on the chips and bin models by this.
My opinion just let it rip, code the chips and call them F1's in the model name.....case closed......after all the point is to showcase not what your retails can do but how far your process can go and how well it's maturing......
You make NO sense at all... I dont understand your ramblings. I am not even benching nehalem 965 or 975, so I don't know what special samples your talking about :confused: Only chips I can bench atm are retail store bought xeons :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
What is my agenda here lol?
there were major discrepancies though :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeguava
He mistakingly assumed that you competed at GO OC, the rest I'm not touching.Quote:
Originally Posted by k|ngp|n
I'm more interested in the pit babes then the overclockers :p Having webcams would be a nice feature too, to see our idols at work. Maybe some sort of schedule too ?
I agree with Chew, CPU's have to be recognisable in some way via CPU-Z screens, the fear of some dudes getting special samples is really too big... But then again how many CPU's does one get ? As many as money can buy ? the whole concept is nice and is very appealing to me, though some things need to be straightened out right now. Before it all starts...
Some CPU's get afraid when the end user fries the motherboards :pQuote:
Originally Posted by dinos22
I said this before, there is only one possible reason for the manufacturers to be onboard in a big way, the bottom line. It would appear that they are ready to go after the enthusiast market much more aggressively than ever before. Quite a smart business move I think. Small market but generally frequent upgraders and more likely to purchase highend, especially if marketed correctly. This obviously means spotlighting and promoting cutting edge gear and what better way than by using top overclockers fed with nothing but the best and breaking records. The scores and the names and faces are no doubt going to be part of special ad campaigns. To not also include scores from this group and the awesome assembly of hardware is on the bot is unacceptable imo.
Hi guys,
A lots been said lately and much of it's very wrong.
There are way too many 'if's and 'if they cheat'. This is why I'm driving everything so fast... to avoid getting bogged down in all this hypothetical stuff.
We already have contests that pit overclockers with binned identical components against each other: the live events. Long may they continue.
We already have contests with rules that are open to everyone: see HWBot.
If you read the start of the thread F1 OC is ALL about driving technology forward AND exciting the general tech enthusiast... not just overclockers.
The idea of using store bought samples is ridiculous and totally unpolice-able. We could make a million legal rulings to stop 'cherry picking' and we'd never even start. The price will prohibit competition from the start and we'd be off sometime near Christmas if we're lucky.
I expect every team will use the best example of its hardware and will bin everything they use. That's the whole point. So long as it is a retail spec.
As I said right in the beginning, if season two needs rules to stop super-mega-cherry picking we will introduce them then. All this talk of lawyers can stop right now.
No rules. No Limits. Just retail-spec kit and lots of skill. That is all.
There are two safeguards to everything...
1) All published results will be provisional. Any anomalous results will result in a stewards enquiry. The stewards will have full power to impose penalties as they see fit.
2) And this should answer just about every concern mentioned above... I propose, if one team is using what looks to be super cherry picked motherboard or graphics card - then any other team has the right to buy it for the recommended retail price. That's used in Finnish banger racing and works a treat to stop people binning cars. This does not go for RAM (which is already built and sold based on super cherry picking), CPUs (which are going to be HEAVILY scrutinised in season one) or PSUs.
That's it.
For those who don't agree, please re-read the original proposal and see what this contest is really all about and has been agreed to already. Noones coming here and changing it so extensively.
It will be kept as simple as humanly possible. Rules will only be implemented if something happens to warrant them. Until that happens, stop suggesting them, please.
This is only the start. Everything will evolve naturally and be pretty polished by season 3 or 5 or whatever.
Why not follow the structure and player classes of another extreme sport like skateboarding. Have both Pro and Amateur contests just like in the X Games or NSA series.
There are only two types of competitions, Pro and Am. There are four different classes of competitor.
- Professional - Top pros are paid salary and some even design signature parts. They can have as many sponsors as one can gather even unrelated products like red bull.
- Amateur A (Sponsored) - Sponsored Ams get all the free product they need, travel pay, entry fees and if they win overall for the year they inevitably go Pro.
- Amateur B (Flow) - They only get some free parts and the rest is up to them
- Amateur C (Unsponsored)- It's all out of their own pocket and all they can win is a share of the contest purse
The Purses for the Pro contests are huge - $100,000 for first. The top amateurs might pull $10,000. This would mean that sponsors would have to dive in and cough up the dough, none of the free video card baloney. Amateurs who perform well will catch the interest of sponsors by performing well not by hammering sales reps with emails begging for samples.
There would also be room for a couple more magazines and web sites to promote the OCers, parts, competitions and the free spirit, non competitive types who still have amazing skills to showcase.
I think if a few legit magazines were on the shelves next to Computer Shopper and the events got a lot of coverage on the web at sponsor sites and maybe TV it could be a great PR and advertising model. The interest generated could trickle down to gamers and sell a lot of parts.
You could still have the lone wolves who hate corporate BS and don't compete.
Ooh, controversial, but I like it :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Overclocker
Great example too.
I'd say that's very close to where we're all going with this. Every overclocker will benefit with a strong 'commercial team' leading the way. And more people will get into overclocking. And HWBot will grow (no reason why that couldn't be sponsored and have a prize money one day).Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcape
how are you going to force a manufacturer to sell a supercherry at retail price
they could just tell you to get stuffed
i reckon if Intel does support this event with their super cherries it should be more even then us using retail cause it's all about how much money someone can throw at it in such instance and some ppl will be able to do a lot more spending then others cough Andre cough haha
but Francois is not interested in this idea so we will have to use retail or whatever parts we can get our hands on:shrug:
it would be nice if we could all get the same support from Intel and AMD, and i reckon that would make the comp pretty even provided that they dont show favouritism to certain teams or members but too bad you wont see Intel behind it with Francois going 180 degrees on this idea.
Please go back to the thread of this demo and read, I did this demo to show that it was pointless and to show that I could get one GHz over what you guys could get at this time with Few tricks. The demo by Itself was to demonstrate that Manufacturer demos are pointless. Don't forget the point of the demo. I WAS VERY CLEAR!, please stop ignoring the context.Quote:
Originally Posted by massman
YOu are right, we are not going to provide Super samples. If an overclocker is good, he will have to prove it on a equal play ground, I am not going to support a ground of priviledge people. I see how AMD would be interested to do this, This is their choice, but it is soooo misleading for the young kids who will not get what he is reading about.Quote:
Originally Posted by dinos22
In my case, I rather make sure that more people gets awesome performance on the normal channel and let the kids grow by themselve.
I don't see any reason why a little group of people should decide who will get the good parts, this is unfair. :shrug: :shakes:
Let's give a chance to everybody and use a levelled play ground.
Francois
i love you Fancious, will you give my wife some babys please? :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
jeez you get your knickers in a twist easy :D heheh
hohohoho .... i am scared now
Wow, i cant believe the amount of crap coming from the mouths of people that dont even have a chance in hell of ever competing in this.
So what if Intel gives out cherries? Since they dont have a team why would they favour any particular team? Same goes for AMD.
Its not like you are going to have a particular test that a super cherry picked AMD is going to even be in the same league as an Intel retail in terms of benchmark performance. Or dont i see it clearly?
That brings us down to the motherboards/vids (manufacturer teams) and supplying them with cherries that the other manufacturer teams wont have. Surely this could be limited to retails only?
If retail boards from competing manufacturer teams are not even in the same league, then its the manufacturer who looks like the tool for having :banana::banana::banana::banana: hardware design.
I would like to propose that manufacturer teams are limited to their products only! While freelance teams can use whatever they want/can get.
BTW Dino I opted out of GB, still too many distractions to even bench for HWBot let alone dedicating myself to this
Soundood, sorry to say but majority of your opinion in this is moot (my opinion only) given that you have no idea what goes on in extreme overclocking behind closed doors/circles
If Intel wants overclockers to rely solely on the retail channel for their chips, then would Intel be willing to provide info regarding what batches have the best electrical characteristics for sub-zero overclocking?Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
That way teams don't have to waste (as much) time & money buying and binning mediocre chips.
You can argue that all chips are different, luck of the draw, etc, but the fact remains that some batches are much better than others.
But everyone has equal access to them so no need. If you dont test many chips, who's fault is that?Quote:
Originally Posted by MACMAC
This would just be a small step towards making it easier for the teams to source their own good chips.Quote:
Originally Posted by T_M
As Dinos mentioned above, not everyone can buy a large number of chips to find a decent one.
The interwebs already documents the good batches
Fair enough, but more detailed info would still benefit everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by T_M
Do you see a downside to what I'm suggesting?
T_M, Did you say that even cherry picked AMD wont be able to compete with retail intel in benches>?
Or did is misunderstand you?
Because as far as I can tell, AMD arent doing too bad, and are keeping up fairly well....
Either way, I dont think cherrry picked cpus should be used, everyone uses retail, then there is no favouritism, and its lucky og gthe draw if you get a better one,
But alteast it will be trying to equal the playing ground, I mean, theres no point having a comp if some teams have cherry picked, and others dont.
I mean, this is less and less like F1, :P
A pitty you only respond to this remark; the remarks above the one you quoted were more interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
Okay, you're missing two vital points here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
1) This first season is only a testing season, which means that there are a lot of people left out now because of less contact with manufacturers or spotting this idea too late. This F1 league is supposed to become the top league for benchmarking, which means that if people want to compete, they'll have to convince the manufacturers that they deserve a spot on the team. To do so, we already have manufacturer sponsored events and hwbot. Integrate these three types of competition and you have a fair competing ~ one where everybody can compete in
2) Within the F1 competition, there maybe should be a certain level of fairness. Why? To exclude the fact that some people win because they have cherry-picked samples while others have to do with rotten retail samples. That's why so many people would like to see Intel involved in this: much like GOOC, they could provide each team with a set of chips (all with same batch) so that the skill of the overclocker is tested rather than the size of his wallet or the luck he has. No one asks for super samples, everyone asks for at least decent samples (again, like gooc). What purpose does an F1 event have if people are playing with average chips?
By the way, since when are we responsible for the deductions of uninformed people? If I see Ronaldo play with Nike, is he to be blamed if I buy Nike and think I'll be as good as him? Is Lewis Hamilton to blame when I buy a car and expect it to go as fast as F1 cars? No.
(PS: l'egalité, typical french, no? ;))
maybe crap in your opinion, but this is after all a forum, that includes free speech? when was it all of a sudden not?Quote:
Originally Posted by T_M
asumption is the mother of all **** ups, as they say, you assume i know nothing, but quite the contrary, i do know a lot of what goes on 'behind closed doors'Quote:
Soundood, sorry to say but majority of your opinion in this is moot (my opinion only) given that you have no idea what goes on in extreme overclocking behind closed doors/circles
and personaly been OC'ing with DICE and LN2 since i would say since the barton days, and also OC'ing since Pentium 1's not that i have to justify anything to you.
just because i dont appear to on this forum, doesnt mean i dont, sorry to break it to you but the world is bigger than just XS forums.
and also i dont feel the need to screenshot every bench i do, and post it here or any other place for that matter, but thats just me, its allways been a personal thing for me.
and anyway what has that got to do with anything? are you saying this is all cloak and dagger stuff we shouldnt comment on? hahahaha yeah right. :rofl:
my opinion stands the same as the first post i made, that i am also entitiled too, and i agree with francious, this should be a fair playing field...period.
if you want to have a competition then there must be rules, if on the other hand you want to have a get together, using cherry picked chips, then be my guest.
but it is not a competition in my eyes, more of a 'rigged' game.
i have made my stance clear on this, and after all i am one of the peeps that should be impressed by this, following some of the overclockers i hold in high regard, competing together in a fair tournament.
allowing us to see who really is number 1 :clap:
GOOC used cpu not cherry pick, even un pre-test in air cooling.Quote:
Originally Posted by k|ngp|n
Mr.Dr didn't bring his cherry picked sets to this event.
damn timbo
sucks to have you not benching like this
i thought you'd do F1 with hicookie for sure :(
If i wasnt working 50+ hours a week in a country where LN2 supply is basically a no go, high end hardware doesnt exist (and try buying online using an Indonesian credit card not to mention the tax ;)) and the nightlife is, hmmm, lets say, fun, then yes i would definately have volunteered to enter.
I agree with this 100% it will be based on luck rather than judgement if ALL competitors are to rely on getting a good retail chip from retail outlets.Quote:
Originally Posted by massman
Amd and Intel have the power to provide evenly matched cpus to provide to all entrants in this compo, its as simple as that in my view.
After all the overclocking community has supported AND promoted AMD and INTEL for years off their own backs.
That would go further to provide an even playing field than any other idea I have seen so far. This way no one can say for example 'my cpu is crap' or some other excuse. Also a very big factor the cost of finding a good cpu or two. poll through the entrants list to see how many can even do that?
lets not set this thing up for people to be pre-armed with excuses. we need an even playing field, lets get it on!:up:
Any of the prviate teams will have to put up a very hard fight in order to be competitive - purchasing multiple CPUs will become very costly. HWbot is a great place for an even playing ground. If the manufacturer teams have a big budget - they should have a nice advantage. For the private teams will there be any prizes? Or is this competition simply for the glory? I would like to assess how far the individual benchmarks are set in stone - to get a basic idea what kind of a bugdet it would require to be competitve in this.
Also I would really get a grasp on the rules. When I went to my first live competition at GOOC I was a bit shocked how loose the rules were - not that this is an issue, but it would help to know what to expect in advance. At the contest it turned out for example that things like "disable post processing" in 3Dmark06 were total fine to be done. No biggie - if we know - all tweaks are go - all tweaks will be go. Just takes time to prepare for that.
QFT!!! IMO this is the main issue of F1 OC.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeguava
Would AMD and Intel be willing to send boxed retail chips to teams to help them pick out a good chip? Without any company support in this area it comes back to- who has the most money to test the most chips and find the best ones. Even if the company gets in touch with the countrys distributer and asks a large shop to take 5-10 off the shelf and send them on, the support is still being given but the companies arent directly dictating batches or cherries.
If its left as it is, it comes back to who has the most money and time to blow on this, which makes it just like HWB but with more spotlights.
I am out of this thread, too many people interested into getting their own agenda established ... Too many free airplane tickets got distributed recently!
I am interested into the young kid who have fun with his hardware, not into the dude trying to make money out of it.
Francois
Mike, I don't see how this is an issue. Just becasue the teams are private, doesn't mean they won't have sponsors & backing :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeguava
For example, Gigabyte has their own team, but they could also sponsor Tom's team with mobos & graphics.
In many ways I would think it could be better...for instance, a private Team could be sponsored with eVGA mobos and Asus GPUs. But the Gigabyte Team would be stuck with only Gigabyte mobos and Gigabyte GPUs (not that there's anything wrong with them).
I think the private teams have the most flexability and the potential for more reasources. :cool:
Think of season 5 when newegg finally signs up to sponsor "Team Newegg"...;)
Is it in the companies best interests to do that? Funding a team that could beat their own with someone elses hardware involved?
I dont mean to be so negative, but I do see a lot of potential pitfalls. Im not sure pitting companies directly against each other will necessarily end well.
I don't think anyone here is looking to make money on this initial venture. In fact this event will likely cost each bencher several hundred to thousand dollars in LN2 and supporting gear that can't be acquired via sponsorship. So don't pull that cop-out, the young kid doesn't have the budget to buy your ridiculously overpriced chips.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
Remember guys, Francois is not Intel. Even if we all can't get pre-binned chips, Intel Marketing may still be interested in supplying chips to this event. A tray of 975 ES chips would go a long way toward making this event come true, even if you have to cut the number of initial teams in order to guarantee everyone gets a single chip.
That being said, let us worry less about the hardware and more about the actual rules governing this event. Questions still need to be answered like what happens if a bencher needs to quit the season prematurely. How are points allocated for winning a particular month? Who decides at the end of the season if a team needs to be cut or if another team needs to be added?
Don't worry about the chips, even if you are all benching Core i7 920s at 21x220, the fact that something organized like that will create a little buzz. Sure, it might take a few seasons, but like all ventures, if you keep plugging away at it eventually you'll get it right.
hiya :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
You know what, it's about time some said this. Those of us who have to pay out of our own pockets for every piece of hardware and try and compete in HWBOT and othor events are getting slammed big time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
It is next to impossible for us to even come close to many of these setups where people get chips/gpus/mbs from special sorces.
Good grief people many of you act like it's your right to get cherry hand picked umber super chips from Intel or AMD or what ever just becasue you "Think" you are good at OC, or you have a special friend some place.
Yet when we go out and purchase parts with out own cash its extremely hard to get even close to the scores many get that are on top. Compete with us on retail equiment and you will see just how good many are out there.
I think you might even drive people away that, after they build a system and go... what.. why can't I even get close to those high scores.
I spent a huge amount on cooling, like many of you have, to be able to over clock better. Purchased everything else, just like many of you, and do my best with what I have.
I am one of the "old" kids that are just trying to have fun, enjoy over clocking a great deal to my best ability. I also think I am one of many out here who feel the same.
Please for give me if I kind of went off there, but this thread thread is getting to be a bit much.
But you guys with a silver spoon for hardware get it now allready and are doing more harm then good for the rest of us in this thread.
Team Ferrari and Team Toro Rosso both use Ferarri Engines:Quote:
Originally Posted by K404
http://www.formula1.com/teams_and_drivers/teams/3/
http://www.formula1.com/teams_and_drivers/teams/184/
Team Toyota and Team Williams both use Toyota engines:
http://www.formula1.com/teams_and_drivers/teams/11/
http://www.formula1.com/teams_and_drivers/teams/4/
Well put Chris! :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by [XC] gomeler
I couldnt agree more, yet if you have a friend who wants to lend you hardware so you can prove how good of a clocker you are, they disqualify the score, saying you dont OWN the hardware... What about all the cherry ES chips taht some get given to them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckeye
none of us regular guys stand a chance. If it werent for alot of my friends i wouldnt have half the stuff I have now or even had the chance to go subzero, but singling out and having a select few that get the best, means the rest of us buy the product knowing all too well that our product will probably never net us the scores like we see here.
:up:Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckeye
Personally I would like to see some of these top overclockers use something other than a Extreme chip. Now there's a test of skill and luck of a draw. How many i7 920's have we seen running 5GHz+ 3DMark 06 or Vantage. That would take us back to the not so distant day of the celeron 300A's we all chased off the shelves to overclock. Things were somewhat level back in the non extreme days.
i still prefer a cherry-picked-manufacturer-supplied F1 competition, where the competition itself becomes the experimental field of the manufacturers. if it comes to manufacturers making special boards for this competition, let them have their way. if they see it works and it makes their products better they will hopefully apply what they learn from the competition to their other mainstream/retail products. i think they call that innovation. As i can see it the manufacturer that works best with their overclocker will have a better chance of winning in this format, and in the end everybody will end up with better products.
and leave the retail competition to the regular hwbot competition and let us keep our fun
That's funny because you work for the company that wants to make that young kid pay for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
Sorry, I completely lost track of what you stand for. I have absolutely no idea what side you're on and what you're fighting for ...
And ... really? I'm trying establish my own agenda? I don't think you have one clue what's in that agenda.
Well ... you're mentioning a few interesting topics here, butQuote:
Originally Posted by Buckeye
First of all: please check Andre's scores. Almost all are done with retail hardware and if not, he can beat them with retail hardware. I think he's the best example there is to prove a 'normal' user can hit the high ranks.
Secondly: i think many of you forget that in return for hardware, one has to provide more than just a few benchmark results. I, for one, have been benching these last two years with almost exclusively hardware sent to me for review. Is that wrong? I spend a great time of my life writing these reviews ... can't I be rewarded for it by having a few weekends of fun with it. Lol, I've heard that comment many times before, especially after the i7 stuff I recieved. I worked almost a month on a 30-page review (7 boards) and people started complaining when I used this one 965 (a crappy one!) to have some fun at hwbot.
Thirdly: when you start working more closely with manufacturers, it's normal you sometimes get gear that some people are not able to get ... is it wrong to use that in Hwbot? Some say it's not 'fair', hence why this F1 competition is being set up. Remove the really cherry-picked chips from the regular bot and throw them in the extreme-bot.
Fourthly: where to draw the line then? Should we be banning LN2 as well? It's fairly simple no: those who don't have acces to LN2, can't compete in the top rankinings.
Fifthly: To be honest, I'm not looking for cherry samples ... I couldn't care less if I get one or not. What I'm trying to defend here is the idea of a league in which the best compete against the best with the best hardware ... because that's the purpose of this F1 competition! Please, all those who think that this is an ordinary league should leave this thread, because it's not.
Yes, and there's a very good reason for that: team rankings. Let's say hardware sharing is allowed on the bot. I have this awesome Celeron 352 which can break the WR quite easily; let's say 8,4GHz. So, I invite all my teammates over (each brining their own hardware - except for cpu) and let them all use this golden chip on LN2. They all submit to hwbot and the cpu-z ranking is dominated by my team.Quote:
Originally Posted by punx223
Would you think that's fair? I guess not.
Review hardware has been allowed on the bot for obvious reasons. These cherry picked chips are too, because they're not disallowed. May sound stupid, but that's exactly what it is. For more information and discussion regarding this, please go here:
http://hwbot.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3074.
There's a reason why I started this thread.
Posted on PAGE 2, and still feel the same...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talonman
Good point massman.... i think thats might the purpose of this competition...Quote:
Originally Posted by Massman
Fourthly: where to draw the line then? Should we be banning LN2 as well? It's fairly simple no: those who don't have acces to LN2, can't compete in the top rankinings.
Fifthly: To be honest, I'm not looking for cherry samples ... I couldn't care less if I get one or not. What I'm trying to defend here is the idea of a league in which the best compete against the best with the best hardware ... because that's the purpose of this F1 competition! Please, all those who think that this is an ordinary league should leave this thread, because it's not.
i just wait n see final rules whats this competition looks like..
-------------------------------------------------
sory for my bad english
I think we can suggest all we want but The Overclocker, who is organizing this league, is only going by the few rules stated a few pages ago. Everyone has an opinion about this or that....super cherry picked or retail only. I have watched F1 racing since I was a child.....marvelling at what the best drivers (like Michael Shumacher) could do with the best car designs of a particular era.
That's what I want to see here....what the likes of Vince, Peter, Charles, George and the rest (SF3D, Andre, Sacha, Gorgioprimo, no_name, Kinc, Guatam, Gomeler, stummerwinter, deanzo et al) can do with the best rigs possible. The prospect of watching Vince, Charles or Hipro George overclock a rig that has very few limits gives me goosebumps. I hope the Overclocker can work it out to get the best gear that is possibly available to these guys. If the best possible gear involves cherry picked parts then as long as it's available to any of the Teams then why all the bally-hoo?
The rest of us want to watch this all happen......and dream of one day being able get into some kind of qualifying round to race with these guys. And even then....even among F1 Teams there are the fast guys and the slower guys. I am sure it'll be the same here....
So the point is ? Didn't most of them do that at eg the Gooc qualifiers ? The competition is called F1, F1 stands for maxium speed, bending rules yet not break them... why limit yaself to 920's and annoying Bclocks. I really don't see the point in all these comments about cherry picked, review samples or not. They want to use retail CPU's in the competition, users will still go out and look for special batches etc like we did in the old days and like we still do today.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nemesis
For the common users they might do a formula 3000 or such...(cheaper hardware and or cooling methods) no mods etc...
These guys will go hard and fast with anything you can throw at them... this competition has got nothing to do with Hwbot or how you scale compared to the big boys. I really don't get all this :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:ing
Only thing that bothers me is how to prove it was a retail CPU or a handed sample somewhere in time...
After checking with my hiearchy, i can confirm that we will not provide special samples, all divisions are in synch. That is better this way, the play ground is leveled on the Core i7 side.
Francois
I know I will draw a lot of flak about this, but I agree with the stance that Francois is taking on this issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
I do think tho that top quality equipment should be used in this F1 style competition for the manufacturing teams and would like to see the best possible competition in the spirit of a F1 style competition.
I also like a level playing field in all forms of competitions, its the only way it can be a fair contest.
Perhaps if binned chips could be ID'd in such a way that they cannot make it into regular HWBOT or other forms of scoring that thats up to AMD/Intel. I have no clue what they do with these chips anyway, I am sure they have there own in house testers to test these things.
But it's all pretty much a moot point anyway as in the first post by The_Overclocker states...
6) All kit used must be on sale by the beginning of the month of the task. If another team wants to buy it, it must be available. We do not want specially-manufactured components which have been built purely to win a race... unless it’s fully available to the public.
It's not an easy task that The_Overclocker is taken on and I am sure what ever they decided will be fine, tho some will disagree on this and that, can't please everyone I guess.
If I understood well, we will compete against each other AND against the Manufacturer's teams?....... :(
You guys write TOO much and I - personally - don't have that much time to read them all..... :(
Speedreading, its awesome. ;) :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by hipro5
Personally, i dont really know what way would be the best to build this sort of a competition... but from my experience in watching something like F1 almost all of the cars have to be the same, its the drivers who matter. We all know that hardware/cars can go bad... and thats just luck. But, i would really prefer to see that everyone basically get the same hardware and have an equal opportunity to compete with eachother based on OC skill and not who has the best hardware.
That would be a very boring contest then, I would mod a CPU to be able to run SuperPI at 6.5Ghz, and kill the contest ...Quote:
Originally Posted by hipro5
I don t think Manufacturer should have a team, that make all of the other team irrelevant.
Even in F1, they have rules for weight , tires, gas, and so on. :shrug:
In the case of CPUs, the possibilities to modify one of the 730millions set of transistor allow you an infinity combinaison of cheat that only the manufacturer can do, I did a demo to show this in the past.
Creating a contest with the 2 teams from Intel and AMD would give a chance to compete to 2 x 2 people. Nothing interesting... exactly when Renault was killing F1 in the 80s with Alain Prost ... or Ferrari in the 2000's ... make the race boring, you know who will win. Ross Braun team is demonstrating the perfect spirit right now in F1, new idea got him ahead, with smaller budget and no sponsor at the beginning. Because he is good, he got 1 sponsor, and kick the b.tt of Ferrari, Williams and all the big one ... F1 is interesting again because of this! they implemented rules recently to make sure that underdogs can have space to grow! you don t want an OC championchip that go the otherway around.
it is much more interesting and exciting when you see young kids coming and kicking the B.tt of the old timers Overclockers ... because they tried to understand the binning of the CPU, or they find out a little tricks! Who ever does its home work better should be able to win!
Francois
Yes, but that doesnt necessarily mean that just ANYONE can enter... you should have to enter through a series of circuits and eventually making your way up to F1. But i entirely agree with levelling the playing field. I would like to see the exact same hardware that is plucked from the exact same retail batch and just let them have a go at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
That would make this competition horrendously boring, and more than slightly redundant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian
This has to be a balls to the wall affair, and those involved need to be able to achieve new benchmarking highs and amazing overclocking feats.
We can have a Fair Game/Mr.Rogers/We Are the World competition another day.
how about a budget cap... for each specif benchmark u can have only a specific budget cap.. hardware is calculated by retail price on newegg at the time of score tabulation. you gotto be smart in picking hardware. best combination and efficiency with high clocks win.. this way everyone can choose their hardware .. just a suggestion..
Exactly. Retail is unpredictable, we could all be benching at 4.8GHz-5.0GHz if the chips aren't pre-screened.Quote:
Originally Posted by MACMAC
... have you read anything everyone else has written or do you have global ignore enabled? We aren't asking for stupid chips that clock to unimaginable frequencies. All the majority of us want are EQUAL CHIPS. You talk of regulation, THAT IS WHAT WE WANT! If we have everyone using retail chips I guarantee you there will be results all over the place, Core i7 is like a crapshoot. Even if you pre-bin a series of chips and CHARGE US it would be better than having everyone hunting through retail stores blowing money that could be spent on cooling. We already do this with HWBot, the point was to make this event different and over the top.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
Francois Cliff Notes:
We want regulation
We want chips that have been pre-screened/binned/regulated to perform close to each other.
We don't want to know who has the biggest wallet or best chip source, we want the event to be fun.
I might be an ass at times but I believe I understand the fun this could be, even as a spectator, and I'm going to be as loud as I can be to see that this happens.
and in closing..
EXACTLY! The fictitious kid you speak of shouldn't be trying to figure out why his Core i7 975 won't do 5.1GHz on LN2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
also, if someone thinks I should shut up for slamming on Francois, let me know and management will take it under consideration :up:
:up: Bravo, at last an intelligent comment. thank you.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by [XC] gomeler
However it is done we need a neutral person to pre bin the cpus, that will make the comp far more interesting, like Gomeler said if we wanted to know who had the biggest bank account or best contacts for cpus, there are other comps that possibly have proved these things already, that is exactly why this needs to be thought out properly.
This comp has the potential to be very good for the overclocking community.
Quote:
Originally Posted by [XC] gomeler
... but there's this kid on air cooling ... :( :shrug:
Cant continue with the idea of an OC F1 league AND talk about aircooling.
Can have one OR the other. If the majority want an aircooled section, we can drop the F1 parallel right away. F1 doesnt have a race where all the drivers are in Ford Fiestas...though that would be entertaining!
Calling it F1 brings up a train of thought. If we stop calling it F1 we'll be open to a wider range of ideas, in a whole range of ways. We're heading more towards a tri-athalon here- a range of disciplines.
LN2 is a leveller in some ways. Aircooled sections will more than likely go to the Siberian overclockers. Free cold with infinite capacity.
Or to guys like me with -40C forced air chambers :D But on topic, I think Massman was poking fun at Francois? I think we stopped caring about benching on air about 3 years ago with the rise of Core 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by K404
I already explained what I mean by cherry samples, but apparently the message is not coming across to some people. For the last time: Intel getting involved in all this has as sole purpose to:
1) Make sure the chips used in the competition are good chips, so that we're not benching at 5GHz.
2) Make sure the playing field is pretty much equal, so that we're not benching 5.3G against 5.8G.
3) To exclude having TOO much money involved going to hardware parts that are not made by the team's sponsor. If Asus sponsors a team, it's to show the quality of their products, not the quality/luck/wallet of the chip/bencher.
Maybe this first could be AMD-LN2 only? I'm sure manufacturers could use the feedback on those motherboards. Only Hipro5 would be mad then, though :D
-40 is wuss air :D:D:ROTF: Siberian winter hits -80 and not a compressor in sight :rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by [XC] gomeler
Okay guys, it looks like we have two schools of thought. We have the... lets be fair to everyone school of thought and the balls to the walls go as fast as we can school of thought. Personally, i prefer the balls to the walls school of thought, with possibly different leagues below for watercooling and aircooling as well as phase and ln2 that can potentially feed into the F1 league and bring in new guys into the mix...
I was part of the small team that created the Extreme Edition. Those kind of effort requires massive efforts, it is not as simple as you think. Speaking for myself, I have to choose between focusing on making an extreme edition that many thousands of people use or focusing on few sample for a set of priviledge people can use ... I focus on making the most number of people happy, with High end processors , high Intruction per clock, high Frequency .. awesome performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by [XC] gomeler
You guys can do your home work and find the best chips, this is part of being a good overclocker ...
Sorry Francois, I had to fix what you said. My implication isnt just for using Intel chips but ALL good components.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
Like always there is no place for Poland :(
Im not sure you took in what Gomeler was saying, its not just about having super chips. retail chips that are pretested to find SIMILAR ability, they could be retail no?Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
As Kenny said above, not everyone is in the financial position to 'find' a chip that is going to compete,
i.e mrx buys 10 cpus to find a good one, mr. b. can only buy one [at a push] so has to rely on luck rather than judgement.
some will some wont thats why your statement about chip selection being part of being a good overclocker fails, cant you see that?
It's begining to turn into a mantra, this comp is about finding the best overclockers not the best off financially or those with the best contacts.
cpus pre selected by a neutral person would be best imo. no one can then say well my cpu was not up to it or I was unlucky.:)
Seriously? I don't even think you read what I wrote. There really is no talking sense to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
1,2,3: agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by massman
I think this is a wise idea given the last page. Good bye 975, hello TWKR. It would be a lot of fun watching the top guys play with Phenom II, I know I've really enjoyed it.
yeah all AMD- LN2 Would be nice.. and it would be nice to watch as well live.. full ln2 pots and big GHZ numbers... thats what the NON- Ocing people would probably take in more in a cpuz screenie.. i remember showing a friend a 3.6ghz oc from 1.8 and he was like wOWOWOWOW...
As I said, and please ready it CAREFULLY, "sorting chips in a Fab that produce millions of Chips is not as easy as doing it in a fab producing thousands ... adding a stage in the fab to do so would be too costly".Quote:
Originally Posted by bustamove44
This is not something that is possible to do without having serious inpact on the latency of a Fab. I can't give you details, but this is not going to happen.
in the mean time, there is a step to make the Extreme Edition, this step is the best in the industry, I can't believe that you guys are always asking for more.
Levelling the play ground for a competition is fairly easy , that is what Gigabyte did with 975 production chip at GooC 2009. So, your point does not stand. You have exactly what you need in the store as Gigabyte did.
So, you have your way to make your play ground egal. Stop telling me I am not reading.
Francois
Just give us all them, high leakage, super hot chips you'd normally throw in the bin. Thanx. :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
If they are going to bin the chips so they all perform nearly the same and so no one gets one that is better than anyone elses, why bother overclocking? :shrug:
There is this notion of personal skill involved. Same chip to two guys(women) could yield diff results with teh skillz!Quote:
Originally Posted by thebluemeanie1
You might be slightly misunderstanding how we would like to see chips binned. It doesnt have to be Intel staff who bin them- as you say the time needed wouldnt be well-spent for the benefit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
Im sure there are some people in the enthusiast circle who (maybe for a price?) would be willing to roughly bin the chips if Intel supplied a few trays. They dont have to be special competition-marked chips, tweaked architecture, ES or anything like that- just trays of retail chips that are to be sorted as worthy of competition status or not.
It will for sure remove the chips with crap memory controllers or worthless BCLK ceilings.
Intel dont have to be so hands-on here. Supplying the chips at all would get mass gratitude and you're seen supporting the scene.
Things dont have to be so difficult- simple is good :D
________________________
On a completely different note.
IF the participants are expected to put their hands in their pockets to buy the right gear for this and are kicking out scores on a par or EVEN BETTER than whats being produced in the competiton then
A/ who is it for anyone to say they arent worthy of being in the competition. They've bought into it, that should make it a free for all
Which
B/ makes the competition pointless. Its HWB with more spotlights (as I said before) and an elitist air to it
Quote:
Originally Posted by massman
Okay!Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
With respect I think we may be reading off different pages:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
See, how simple was that Francois? You could have simply explained this to us and ended it there. The stuff about the kid and the homework? That was.. :doh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
I have a cascade, a Classified and cheap power and I know there have to be at least another dozen guys globally with cascades and access to a Classified or similar quality board. Send 20 CPUs to each and in a weeks time they could have them mapped out with the modest fee of keeping the best one for the tester. I'm sure you could find 1 person on each continent to handle this. I call dibs on NA :DQuote:
Originally Posted by K404
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by [XC] riptide
Gomeler I would be very happy to help out with that :)
I think there's a few manufacturers that don't. However, this test is very important... some people have been getting superb performance out of lowly onboard graphics. The potential to change the retail market with this competition and particular test, is what we're really striving for. It also will be a real challenge to the competitors.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeguava
Another potential test could be to bench a mobo that costs under US$100 retail. Just for the hell of it. All hypothetically of course.
More tests will appear in season two. Anything that doesn't work we can get rid of remember.
I know things are getting a bit heated, but there are some good ideas coming out of this so keep it coming please (but lose the personal attacks).
If people are starting to be put off - worry not - I am keeping this as simple as possible. At all costs. At least for season one. Some replies...
To be fair I mentioned very early indeed that Francois promised no cherries to anyone. It got forgotten along the way. Then came back. Then noone believed him. All the selected teams have access to good chips. We'll see if that's a problem after season one.Quote:
Originally Posted by dinos22
Yes and no. People will be binning chips. But of the 28 participants... they all will. Let's not say it's a problem until it is one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
I rather like the idea of a manufacturer using another manufacturer's board. Shamino said he'd use a Rampage when he was on for EVGA (for some tests). I pointed out that each competitor's kit will be listed for each round - that's the whole point - so the common and garden tech enthusiast can quickly scan the results to see who makes the best hardware. Imagine if the top four one month all used Gigabyte motherboards (Team Gigabyte and eg Team Australia). It would look good for Gigabyte over every other manufacturer.Quote:
Originally Posted by T_M
I hear ya!Quote:
Originally Posted by T_M
Every competitor picked gets free CPUs from somewhere. That's F1 for you. But all have got to that point by progressing on the HWBot ranks. Long may this contiune.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeguava
Rules for tweaks and mods will be formalised but we've had enough live comps to get a good idea of what's allowed... off the top of my head... all mods are OK... but manufacturing silicon especially for a test is not... unless it's available for retail before the month starts.
This shows how out of hand things got there. Chill people!Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
I imagine lots of teams will be using the same hardware.Quote:
Originally Posted by miahallen
You worry too much!Quote:
Originally Posted by K404
F1 will not have this rule.Quote:
Originally Posted by punx223
Certainly - from season two we'll see how far people can clock lesser chips.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nemesis
I thought this was agreed ages ago. I'm sure manufacturers will have access to more chips. We'll change things in a reactionary way though. Not until there's a definite problem. No saying I told you so, mind :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
You're all against each other mate. That's all. Simple :)Quote:
Originally Posted by hipro5
Rule 1 - no modding silicon unless it's available for sale to the public before the round starts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
As for where Formula 1 car racing has evolved... it took 30 years to become boring. Then they reacted and fixed it. I hope we can do the same.
Complaining about having the same winners all the time before we've even had one season sounds strange. If one team wins every round for season one... that would be interesting!
lol thats news to meQuote:
Originally Posted by The_Overclocker
goes to check my mailbox :rofl: j/k
OK - slight exageration. I hope Francois didn't mean Intel wouldn't send anyone anything? Just that it wasn't super cherry binned!Quote:
Originally Posted by dinos22
Hmmm.......Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Overclocker
Then WE team Hellas, will give HELL!....
You'll spit blood till BEGGING us to stop!......
You'll eat sand and you'll get our smoke.....!....
:lol: :horse: :frag: :shoot: :CTF: :bananal: :cheer2: :cord:
hahahahahahha..Quote:
Originally Posted by hipro5
a warning shot has been fired. even before the comp starts.. haha..
:DQuote:
Originally Posted by lolhalol
Opppssss........I've just remember some more..... :D
We'll put your head onto ground and crash it with our feet....
You'll eat our dust....
You'll need binoculars to see us ahead.... :ROTF:
You forgot one:Quote:
Originally Posted by hipro5
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2..._boy/whip1.gif