Andre Yang - Lifetime Ban

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ExodusC

I have to back Fugger entirely on the bans. There should be a zero tolerance cheating policy. If Fugger did not ban everyone involved, XtremeSystems would lose any and all legitimacy as an overclocking website.

I'm a bit sad to hear some of the cheaters (regardless of that fact that they may be contributing members of the community) won't be getting longer bans. Permanent may be excessive, but if it's just a couple months, that's not enough time, in my opinion.

Unrelated: Charlie, is that a hidden Apple of Eden in your avatar? :)

---

I disagree.

Give them a week to explain themselves, and if they are not up to doing that, then ban them or remove all of their rights.

This is just sad.

But things like this we could see them coming miles away.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BeepBeep2

I disagree.

Give them a week to explain themselves, and if they are not up to doing that, then ban them or remove all of their rights.

---

Well, I agree they should be given a chance to explain their actions and apologize, but the fact seems to be that they were cheating. Anyone deserved that.

I'm not saying lifetime ban, that does seem unjust as they still contribute to the community and seem to be well respected in many circles.

Still, the fact of the matter is, they cheated and they should be punished for it.

Whether people choose to trust their scores (and words) in the future, and how scrutinized they will be is entirely up to the community.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BeepBeep2

Overclocking DOES take talent, however overclocking also means you have lots of $$$$. Without the $$$$ you are nothing.

I'm stuck with a bum CPU and it does not go further. I can't even keep up with similar CPU's.

---

not true.

if you don't have much $$ then change the class in which you compete :D

You can be an A++ Sempron overclocker... or celeron clocker.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by charlie

not true.

if you don't have much $$ then change the class in which you compete :D

You can be an A++ Sempron overclocker... or celeron clocker.

---

But those do not get talked about like hiwa's and Andre's and K|NGP|N's...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BeepBeep2

But those do not get talked about like hiwa's and Andre's and K|NGP|N's...

---

Your exactly right too. It is the same in almost anything as well. In bodybuilding nobody cared about the lightweights. They wanted to see the super heavy freaks of nature. In boxing they want to see the big guys kill each other etc etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BeepBeep2

But those do not get talked about like hiwa's and Andre's and K|NGP|N's...

---

BUT where did they start?
I guarantee you that there was a day when all of these people were unknown and just experimenting in their homes on modest hardware..
No one was born with these skills,all learned and by the vast majority self taught thru trial and error.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Movieman

BUT where did they start?
I guarantee you that there was a day when all of these people were unknown and just experimenting in their homes on modest hardware..
No one was born with these skills,all learned and by the vast majority self taught thru trial and error.

---

Point taken.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BeepBeep2

Point taken.

---

A little follow up..
There's this guy I know( and you all know him too) that 3-4 years ago I remember talking with him and he was constantly testing.
I mean like constantly testing and learning.
I used to think Dear Lord that would bore me to death but that was him.
Today he is a VERY well known OC'er and one of the sharpest people I know in this hobby..

IF you guys think there is no skill involved try competing in the super pi low clock challenge, fastest super pi 32 at 4ghz, lets see how you shape up then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ExodusC

I have to back Fugger entirely on the bans. There should be a zero tolerance cheating policy. If Fugger did not ban everyone involved, XtremeSystems would lose any and all legitimacy as an overclocking website.

I'm a bit sad to hear some of the cheaters (regardless of that fact that they may be contributing members of the community) won't be getting longer bans. Permanent may be excessive, but if it's just a couple months, that's not enough time, in my opinion.

Unrelated: Charlie, is that a hidden Apple of Eden in your avatar? :)

---

How so? XS is a hub for some of the elite overclockers on the planet; unfortunately banning such legends also denies members some of the invaluable insights they bring into the sub-forums. Andre Yang (AY) benches for Team Pure, not XS. What rule on XS did AY break by "sharing" scores with other XS members? Was the competition organized by XS? Were they representing XS? What if member of this cherished community breaks the law, do they get an automatic ban?

I am by no means questioning the course of action taken by Charles, but this seems to be a grey area that needs to be ironed out quickly to prevent confusion. I certainly am not envious of Charles for this course of action, it must have been one tough decision to make.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Movieman

BUT where did they start?
I guarantee you that there was a day when all of these people were unknown and just experimenting in their homes on modest hardware..
No one was born with these skills,all learned and by the vast majority self taught thru trial and error.

---

:up:

I see people looking for people to defend themselves, i feel that XS wouldn't have banned them if they had not done there homework first. Common i am sure this was taken very serious, and hte people saying OMG lifetime ban, bla bla bla is bad, we are a very forgiving people so no matter what the ban was, with the right actions everything could change in a heartbeat.

So i found this because i haden't seen any post yet of any admissions of guilt till this one,..

Here us skinnee's side of the story as he posted itl...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by skinnee

I want to get my side of this whole situation out in the open…

Vapor was in town for some lab projects we have going on and I talked him into benching with me to qualify for MOA. We had a 160L tank of LN2, XPower boards and Ryan’s (GoatEater) untested chip. I setup the OS, drivers and applications and used the 197.75 drivers… I knew FM always lagged behind approving drivers and figured they hadn’t approved the 257.xx drivers yet.

Wednesday and most of Thursday we spent testing a few kits of RAM, how to clock the uncore on the XPower, and so on… Thursday night we went cold. We benched 480’s in SLI with the 197.75 drivers. And as you can see from the ORB links and screenshots (run 1 ORB / run 1 HWbot, run 2 ORB / run 2 HWbot) we did well with the 480’s and Ryan’s chip was pretty good, but the 197.75 drivers were not FM approved and we later validated that FM QA did not even test those drivers.

So, I have the score to be in second, but my driver choice means the entry cannot be used in the contest and the 480’s are pretty much tapped out score wise. I called in a favor to a buddy here in the Twin Cities to borrow his 5970 and 5870 to go higher in score.

Friday night we tossed the ATI cards on and benched for 7+ hours on Ryan’s chip. During the long session we achieved four scores above 43k and ended up having condensation issues and killing Ryan’s chip early Saturday morning as we were pushing for over 44k.

Saturday afternoon I finally uploaded the scores to ORB and did not even try to make them public at first as I wanted to hold out as long as possible to see what other scores were posted on the leaderboard, but I finally caved and tried to make the lowest score public and it would not go. Here are the screen shots and 3dr files from the Friday night session…

43023 SS / 43023 3DR

43474 SS / 43474 3DR

43553 3DR

43912 3DR

I emailed Pasi at FM and posted in the thread on the FM forums regarding the problem of the scores just not wanting to go Public. During the bench session we renamed 3DMark06.exe to 3DMark05.exe. In pretesting, we observed the score was not very consistent and renaming seemed to improve the consistency and therefore improved the average score slightly, by 50-100 points. Peak scores were unchanged, but low scores weren’t cropping up.

Since we were having problems with the results and had not received any word from FM, we switched over to another 980X and started benching again on Sunday night. However, we were still waiting on FM’s reply to see if they could resolve the ‘Make Public’ issue with the four 43+k ATI results I had uploaded. We ran out of LN2 around 2:00AM Central Time and did not beat our previous high score of 43912 from Friday night/Saturday morning.

We decided to wait up for FM’s reply to see if they could resolve the problem with the results. A few hours before the deadline, an offer came in from Andre for a valid score to secure the 2nd place spot… and out of desperation I took it. In the meantime, Pasi emailed back saying he looked at the results I uploaded previously and saw the the .exe was renamed, which made the checksum invalid and according to FM policy you cannot rename files (modifying the .dlls and .exes at all is forbidden). I uploaded the score from Andre, made it public and notified Pasi of the new project ID to be included in the contest.

The score I uploaded from Andre was pulled as you already know. Taking the 3dr file and uploading it as my own was a complete dumbass move. I exchanged several emails with FM this morning regarding the matter, to which I openly admitted to using Andre’s score as my own.

Regardless of my own stupidity, I want to congratulate the winners and wish them the best of luck in Taipei for the finals.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BenchZowner

Actually it's a happy day, we now have less idi0ts in the community.

---

wait, you're still here? :lol2:

Too bad it have to end this way, but everyone that involved will move on eventually.....new cpu, new gpu will be released no matter what happens to oc community:D

Edit...as I saw this : [Qoute] "an offer came in from Andre for a valid score to secure the 2nd place spot… and out of desperation I took it"........That is stupid "win with all cost" attitude and it deserved the ban:(

im sorry but I believe this applies

http://verydemotivational.files.word...1329426568.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SamHughe

I still think these guys should be given a chance address this criticism personally (if they choose to do so). Maybe some hacker stole the results and emailed to the others, maybe a band of pink fairies forced Andre's hands to share results, maybe they are victims of international Overclock Mafia (suspected leader: Movieman) :)
Kidding aside, I really don't feel comfortable to see this pages of bashing without them being able to respond. Don't take me wrong, I would be the first person to call them AS*HOLES! but I'd like to say this to their faces rather than , you know, from behind.

---

+1, totally agree

here is the post from hiwa....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hiwa

Hi eveyone
Well, i wanted to wait andre post here for first or answer my pm on msn
but couldn't keep it,during the computex this year i heard ppl have some discusion about me, anything started in there with UNFAIR group results, bench with friends hardware, i lost myself in there, i was in top10 and i touched top5 in aprile with my hardware and cpus.
i checked XS last week and i see futuremark make this contest, bought the board and killed it, it was all to kill first place score witch i couldn't see and let it stay in top. i really couldn't go for MOA it was just to kill that score, then andre shared it with me on my request, but why you shared it with other 4 or 5 ?


I am going to delete all my GROUP scores and ES(the first must be delete) , UNFAIR results from hwbot
i'll go to top20 maybe but who care, i'll back a day and start again bench like a real overclocker.

that's all guys

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hiwa

no he isn't i never said he is bad GHZ, he make score for me, but he shared with other 3 persons with no reason. it's very strange to me :( sorry for my english i didn't want say that.


i am not angry with andre, it was my fault not andre he gave me result on my request.


i edited my old post it wasn't what i wanted to say

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hiwa

we had enough hardware to bench sometimes we use his chip sometimes mine
a lot of boards there, but we should never post the results caz ppl weren't happy on that.

andre didn't get one CENT on LOC, he never sold the scores to me or other ppl
as i told before he gave me score on MY REQUEST.

Andre tried to help us

---

Kudos to hiwa and skinnee for having the nuts to confess and learn from mistakes.

U beat me too it, He was man enough to own up and admit what has happened and came clean, alot of people would of made up a excuse and denied it, a real man comes forward.. always a good thing in my book..

now one from Afrokalle

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Afrokalle

Hey guys,

as i heared from this competiton my friend (and team mate) sent me his XPower and i bought a retail chip (3005F) to compete...

...but before i had a result this chip died.

So i benched with my Q3QP (a good chip but not as good as the retail) and got some good score's - i did not know the first time that ES Chip not allowed cause in hwbot it is no problem. After i realized it i asked my friend to send me a new retail but there was no time to do it...

I spent a lot of time in benching but all my scores seems useless for this competition and i tought i will upload scores with Q3QP but then i talked with Andre and he said he can help me...

I know it is not ok and it is only my fault!

It is not ok that all people here more against Andre than against us. He benched his own hardware and he also did not compete in this event. So i think the main fault is 100% on our side. What he did is not fair but as i said the main fault is on our side...

I did not upload this score to hwbot - also i did not upload any score from Computex to hwbot - all my/our scores in hwbot done with my hardware...

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Afrokalle

We wanted to use this as a team account but did not...

Also my team mates have nothing to do with this and cause of this fact (and that it is not my score) this score (and the one's from Computex) are not @hwbot.

My bad feelings was not that big cause i kicked with this score somebody out who also is not a fair player...

...i will not say with this that it is ok (it is 100% not ok) - i will only say why my bad feelings not that big as they could be...

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Afrokalle

In my case (and i can only speak for me) it is my fault!

He helped me cause he knowed that i worked hard for this competition and cause he knowed that i want come back Taipei to see someone...

So what do you think is his profite???

Again, it is not ok but i can not see that Andre could gain anything from doing this..

And i think i said why my bad feelings not that big.

---

Rules in overclocking (competitively with prize or just to show off your new hardware):

1. Post your own result
2. Show your own work

Once you crossed the line...your credibility and respect will vanished:(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dumo

Rules in overclocking (competitively with prize or just to show off your new hardware):
1. Post your own result
2. Show your own work

---

Sounds like math class :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BenchZowner

Time to get rid of all the "great" people.
Cheaters and abusers should be kicked out of the forums and the ranking sites.

p.s. Despite the fact that in their ToU HWbot states "Sharing/selling results = lifetime ban" we see a 1 year ban for mr "I think my money and connections beat everyone and is the honored way to go".

Goodbye, we will NOT miss you at all.

---

Could not agree more! :up:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by systemviper

now one from Afrokalle

---

Thank you SO MUCH for sharing these. :up:

Oh wow. I haven't seen something this bad in quite awhile. All of those guys were huge in this community, and to find this out... well, it's quite sad. As others have said, Andre has been the subject of scrutiny before so I cannot say it comes as a complete surprise, but the others?

:shakes:


Even so, I am personally not of lifetime bans - though I do fully respect and understand the decision. So take my statement as more of a discussion on the general topic rather than this incident. It is an unpopular thing to say, but I am for reform instead of execution. It might be the Canadian in me talking in a room largely full of Americans, but that's just how I was raised. Canada has a much, much, much higher reform rate than the US, and I tend to think it's because reform is the goal of our penal programs rather than just punishment.

Similarly, I think that in incidents like this there should definitely be some punishment... but with a chance at reform. Go ahead and ban cheaters, strip off their champion status, and do not let them compete for a period of time. By all means cut off the freebies from any companies that are willing to comply. That is all necessary, without question. But rather than having a fully binary system (access or no access), maybe there is a third option.

After a period of time allow them back, but with restrictions. Maybe any contest they enter in the next year must be accompanied with a set of photographs of the accomplishment, or even video (which is much harder to fake). [To be honest I feel that should be a requirement for any high-level competition anyway, but that's another story]. Do not allow them to compete with hardware they received from a manufacturer (verified through the manufacturer, to the extent possible). Etc. What I'm getting at here is that I think people should be given a chance to earn their way back to our good graces.



Again, with that said, I do fully understand and respect the decision in this case. These are the rules we have in place and they should be respected and must be enforced. I speak of future rule changes and my position on the direction I would like to see them moved towards.

Hardcore news for ending this day.

but this is like athletes. if any of them consume drugs, energy drinks or something that is involved with antipoding stuff will be "banned" from their career and sport, same thing over here with Andre and other members involved.

Regards from Chile and sorry my band english :P.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dumo

Rules in overclocking (competitively with prize or just to show off your new hardware):

1. Post your own result
2. Show your own work

Once you crossed the line...your credibility and respect will vanished:(

---

If this was in the university then all of them would be banned and lose all the credibility gained up to that day. What they did is called plagiarism. There is no forgiving for this at uni.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TOOL_CHILE

Hardcore news for ending this day.

but this is like athletes. if any of them consume drugs, energy drinks or something that is involved with antipoding stuff will be "banned" from their career and sport, same thing over here with Andre and other members involved.

Regards from Chile and sorry my band english :P.

---

i agree on benching but they are still a valuable part of the community to help other people. in sports even people who roid up are allowed to come back as coaches or trainers, they just have to not use or encourage others.

i think that for XS it should be the same were affter a while cheaters should be able to come back to help others in legitimate pursuits. but for HWbot a life time ban seams appropriate

I don't want to go too far OT... but lower level OC is often times more entertaining than the higher stuff.

Go grab an i3 and a 5830 and make it bark, wag it's tail and cry for supper :D

Sucks to see the specific individuals banned, considering their status in community, but ultimately cheating is cheating and as such needs to be dealt with harshly for the sake of all legit contenders. The only thing wrong about this is that they weren't awarded double-lifetime bans like XFX dishes out double-lifetime warranties. :p:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zanzabar

i agree on benching but they are still a valuable part of the community to help other people. in sports even people who roid up are allowed to come back as coaches or trainers, they just have to not use or encourage others.

i think that for XS it should be the same were affter a while cheaters should be able to come back to help others in legitimate pursuits. but for HWbot a life time ban seams appropriate

---

:yepp:

But they know the rules so is not a valid excuse to forgive this errors.

skinnee show us their experience benching for MOA, is more undestable now WHY took Andre's results but doesn't change the cheating.

Regards from Chile.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BeepBeep2

Kudos to hiwa and skinnee for having the nuts to confess and learn from mistakes.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Johnny87au

U beat me too it, He was man enough to own up and admit what has happened and came clean, alot of people would of made up a excuse and denied it, a real man comes forward.. always a good thing in my book..

---

Excuse me for my misunderstanding of the situation, but didn't they get caught cheating and then own up to it? I mean it wasn't until an official inquiry by HWBOT before anything was discovered. It's great that they came on here and tried to explain what happened and what they were thinking, but that doesn't change the fact that they decided to cheat. And let's not forget what was at stake here, not just a score, but a paid trip and who knows what else, something that should have rightfully been someone else's. I have no ill will for any of them, especially Skinnee, but that doesn't mean I have any sympathy for what happens to you when you get caught cheating. I am going to say it again, they all got caught, who knows if this is the first time or just the first time they got caught, does anyone know? Of course not, and I want to believe that it was just this once, but the problem is that they have thrown doubt into every score out there now with their selfish action. Every time someone gets the top spot, the question will be there "Is it legit?".

I am also unclear on the punishment. I thought it was a 1 year ban from XS and HWBOT for everyone but Andre who got a permaban. I am now hearing it is something like 30 days on XS, can anyone clear that up for the record?

One more question, when I read Skinnee's explanation earlier it said Vapor changed the extension on one of the files that Skinnee tried to upload and this is what started the whole thing, so did Vapor know what was going on?

Its a shame people cheat, but at least when they get found out they get banned :up:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by charlie

I don't want to go too far OT... but lower level OC is often times more entertaining than the higher stuff.

Go grab an i3 and a 5830 and make it bark, wag it's tail and cry for supper :D

---

I have to agree, last few days i'v been benching some old Celeron's and P4. Great fun even though it hasn't provided many points.

sad times...its like a knife to the heart of the OC community...dont usually post at XS :welcome: but this is shattering

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TOOL_CHILE

:yepp:

But they know the rules so is not a valid excuse to forgive this errors.

skinnee show us their experience benching for MOA, is more undestable now WHY took Andre's results but doesn't change the cheating.

Regards from Chile.

---

im not saying that they should not get banned just that lifetime from a forum sounds a bit much when its not were they cheated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zanzabar

im not saying that they should not get banned just that lifetime from a forum sounds a bit much when its not were they cheated.

---

XS is the meca for ocers worldwide .... fuggers only did what a forum representing this kind of image had to do

Andre Yang is the man in the middle:

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/2097/3xxx.png

does anyone know what they were ranked worldwide, respectively , at the time of the ban? what were each of their positions on the chart?

Well done Fugger. :up:

rofl.. he used the same FM key for all the results even

/me faints

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UrbanSmooth

Andre Yang is the man in the middle:

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/2097/3xxx.png

---

There are six guys. What do you mean "in the middle"?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Utnorris

....so did Vapor know what was going on?

---

I gave my opinion on the "what ifs" with doing this then went to sleep in another room some 45 minutes before skinnee uploaded the score and made it public.

Woke up the next morning and found out multiple scores were under investigation :eh:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dinos22

Did you tell him NOT to do it

---

I told him my thoughts on the matter and left the decision to him and went to bed. He was the one whose name was on it and he was the one who was trying to qualify for MOA.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vapor

I told him my thoughts on the matter and left the decision to him and went to bed. He was the one whose name was on it and he was the one who was trying to qualify for MOA.

---

That's good enough for me.
We are not "our brothers keeper" and don't control another adults actions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vapor

I told him my thoughts on the matter and left the decision to him and went to bed. He was the one whose name was on it and he was the one who was trying to qualify for MOA.

---

so the bench rig was there and everything was done with a team (made of the people who have now been banned) and he made a run with it and had it saved or was he just watching and a run was saved or was it his hardware/partly his.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UrbanSmooth

Andre Yang is the man in the middle:

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/2097/3xxx.png

---

Dinos looks like johnny knoxville lol, bad!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zanzabar

so the bench rig was there and everything was done with a team (made of the people who have now been banned) and he made a run with it and had it saved or was he just watching and a run was saved or was it his hardware/partly his.

---

Andre did the run most probably at his place, and distributed the .3dr files electronically to whomsoever who asked from him(or maybe as afro said the other way around).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by El Maño

There are six guys. What do you mean "in the middle"?

---

The fat dude.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zanzabar

so the bench rig was there and everything was done with a team (made of the people who have now been banned) and he made a run with it and had it saved or was he just watching and a run was saved or was it his hardware/partly his.

---

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...15#post4479815

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kal-EL

If the dudes are capable of lying and cheating for obserdly stupid reasons, whats to stop them from scewing a review in the direction of the most generous company?

I'm sorry but, detailed, decorated and well spoken are also the qualities of a damned good liar. With all the toolerant minds I've seen so far, its no wonder the wool gets pulled over the eyes so much these days.

---

This.

wow, this is Why I stopped entering overclocking contests....

The reputation of a thousand years may be determined by the conduct of one hour. ~Japanese Proverb

This is all a moot point. Over-clocking voids your warranty and is not recommended.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by darthbeavis

this is all a moot point. Over-clocking voids your warranty and is not recommended.

---

qft!!!

Yeah, I think I'll spend an extra $200-$300 for a chip's higher clocks rather than overclock one that's $200-$300 cheaper. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vapor

I gave my opinion on the "what ifs" with doing this then went to sleep in another room some 45 minutes before skinnee uploaded the score and made it public.

Woke up the next morning and found out multiple scores were under investigation :eh:

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vapor

I told him my thoughts on the matter and left the decision to him and went to bed. He was the one whose name was on it and he was the one who was trying to qualify for MOA.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Movieman

That's good enough for me.
We are not "our brothers keeper" and don't control another adults actions.

---

C'mon guys. We just crucified Sidewinders and Jab-tech for the same thing. We have to be better than this. If you knew something was going on you should have reported it, simple as that. Overclocking contests are based on the honor system for the most part and unfortunately we have to police our selves, not just when it is convenient, but when it's the hardest. Because of this whole debacle, the system will be questioned even more so than before. To turn a blind eye to something like this is wrong, especially when you are a mod, I am sorry, but you are held to a higher standard than other people. You guys are seen as leaders and essentially you were condoning this. If it hadn't came out are you saying you wouldn't have said anything Vapor? Seriously? We can be better than this, we have to be.

Come on, guys. Let this be just a scare for them and give them another chance...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UrbanSmooth

Yeah, I think I'll spend an extra $200-$300 for a chip's higher clocks rather than overclock one that's $200-$300 cheaper. :D

---

that 200$ could be spend on a better cooling system ... but hey its your money right

whats happening with them?

Has the question been asked as to how they know to go to Andre to get a score? I mean it seems unlikely you'll just ask another 'top' ocer for a score because you were unhappy with your own, and when 3 maybe more people all request a score from Andre, then there is something seriously dirty happening around here. Is this a case Andre letting people know you can get a score from this? It seems a great number of people know this is going on and nothing is being done about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cold fussion

has the question been asked as to how they know to go to andre to get a score? I mean it seems unlikely you'll just ask another 'top' ocer for a score because you were unhappy with your own, and when 3 maybe more people all request a score from andre, then there is something seriously dirty happening around here. Is this a case andre letting people know you can get a score from this? It seems a great number of people know this is going on and nothing is being done about it.

---

qft.......

Hell, I don't even understand how you guys know this even happened. Identical scores? Or slightly different scores but same hardware?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dctokyo

The reputation of a thousand years may be determined by the conduct of one hour. ~Japanese Proverb

---

Ain't that the truth... it could even be the alleged conduct of one hour.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deluded

Hell, I don't even understand how you guys know this even happened. Identical scores? Or slightly different scores but same hardware?

---

I think the program records individual device ID's for recording and verification purposes. If they were just using say, the same mobo, then it wouldn't be that big of a deal... but when each and every device on the system comes up with identical ID's, it has to be the same system. If they were at the same session and took turns overclocking on the same rig, it wouldn't be an issue either.

It has to do with the people who submitted the scores not being in the presence of the hardware as the benches were done.

iandh already explained....

How were they alerted to this fact to begin with? From the sounds of this, looks like they've been doing this for a while.

Guys, does anyone here have a cherry 980x? if so just run me off a few scores I will pay you 20 dollars or so per score. I submit the scores to get me a high ranking in the overclocking databases, manufacturers send me loads of free stuff because now I'm 'known' your happy im happy:up:

and forget the mugs that bench their own stuff bought with their own money who struggle to find a competitive chip. :shakes:

I assume it goes something like that?

if thats the case then no mercy in my book, get caught doing crap like that then pay the consequences! bout time imo.:clap:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tdream

wait, you're still here? :lol2:

---

:clap: :up:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oj101

Yes, he broke the rules, now every one of you please report yourselves everytime you have broken the speedlimit.

---

:brick:
How can you compare that to breaking rules in a competition where a lot is based on trust? Depending on where I'm driving I sometimes don't care about the speed limit but I'll never cheat in competitions. There really is a big difference.

@Vapor :
What exactly were your thoughts? :D
Basically means that he did the right thing eventually without anyone else pushing him? Hmm....

@iandh :
Yeah, that's what I read too and it's not actually that hard, just requires the program to send the whole hardware ID and not just the part that has info about the model. If it was just the motherboard and they managed to get the same high scores it would just be proof of them all being skilled, now it's just... :shakes:

Besides all that, my view on it is simple :
If you betray the trust of so many people, including a lot of people that look(ed) up to you then you deserve a life time ban if you do it more than once (which was stated in opening post) but from what I read I would say that at least skinnee deserves a second chance, he did confess, right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vapor

I gave my opinion on the "what ifs" with doing this then went to sleep in another room some 45 minutes before skinnee uploaded the score and made it public.

Woke up the next morning and found out multiple scores were under investigation :eh:

---

This will probably bring me in a world of trouble but I just have to comment on this..

You're saying you knew about Andre handing out scores to Skinnee... or at least that Skinnee had an illegitimate score he wanted to use..
I've been reading 5 pages of people saying cheaters should be punished, banned or crucified.. OC'ing should be pure and based on trust..
If that's all true then why the hell didn't you stop it before it went down..?
That's the same as if you know someone is going to rob the local grocery store and say.. "I wouldn't do it personally but it's up to you.." I know it's not the same as an OC competition but it clarifies my point..

Andre screwed up by providing those scores.. the rest are just as bad or even worse for using these scores to cheat a competition..
It's like buying a gun to shoot someone.. who's to blame more.. the one who provided the gun or the guy that killed someone..
In this case those who did the actual cheating almost get away with it yet the guy who provided the instrument gets sacked for life..

This whole thing smells beyond belief and just proves that honesty and values don't mean Jack :censored: unless one is caught red handed in the cookie jar..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cold Fussion

Has the question been asked as to how they know to go to Andre to get a score? I mean it seems unlikely you'll just ask another 'top' ocer for a score because you were unhappy with your own, and when 3 maybe more people all request a score from Andre, then there is something seriously dirty happening around here. Is this a case Andre letting people know you can get a score from this? It seems a great number of people know this is going on and nothing is being done about it.

---

THIS +1

The 1st thing I thought. How do 3 guys competing all decide to contact Andre "Phone a Friend" Yang for a competition?

This leads me to conclude one thing only... that Andre Yang was the 'go-to' man if you needed a dig out and a result. Does anyone know what price or benefit in kind is transferred?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NightCrawler™

This will probably bring me in a world of trouble but I just have to comment on this..

You're saying you knew about Andre handing out scores to Skinnee... or at least that Skinnee had an illegitimate score he wanted to use..
I've been reading 5 pages of people saying cheaters should be punished, banned or crucified.. OC'ing should be pure and based on trust..
If that's all true then why the hell didn't you stop it before it went down..?
That's the same as if you know someone is going to rob the local grocery store and say.. "I wouldn't do it personally but it's up to you.." I know it's not the same as an OC competition but it clarifies my point..

---

I'm guessing Vapor knows Skinnee really well and knew he would fess up?

What's the point in that...?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NightCrawler™

What's the point in that...?

---

Lets say you've got a good friend and you're playing some game. He starts to cheat and you don't like it one bit.

You got two choices :
1) you talk some sense into him
2) you report him without him knowing about it

Result of choice 1 will get him banned and he'll probably learn his lesson and wont do it again.
Result of choice 2 will get him banned, you'll lose a good friend and pissed off people like that usually dont learn their lesson.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by G.Foyle

Wasnt that the case for OPB too? Still we're better off without him.

---

OPB pulled some good runs back in the day in front of an audience, he had the skill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dahmer

Lets say you've got a good friend and you're playing some game. He starts to cheat and you don't like it one bit.

You got two choices :
1) you talk some sense into him
2) you report him without him knowing about it

Result of choice 1 will get him banned and he'll probably learn his lesson and wont do it again.
Result of choice 2 will get him banned, you'll lose a good friend and pissed off people like that usually dont learn their lesson.

---

I'd rather prevent my good friend from making the mistake in the first place..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vapor

I gave my opinion on the "what ifs" with doing this then went to sleep in another room some 45 minutes before skinnee uploaded the score and made it public.

Woke up the next morning and found out multiple scores were under investigation :eh:

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vapor

I told him my thoughts on the matter and left the decision to him and went to bed. He was the one whose name was on it and he was the one who was trying to qualify for MOA.

---

This is really shameful. Not only have the two of you squandered a great deal of trust given you by enthusiasts around the world, but you've also shown yourself to be a lousy friend. A friend would 1) have tried to stop another friend from doing something like this 2) not thrown his friend under the bus as soon as things turned ugly.

At the very least the both of you should take the heat together, and maybe showing an inkling of remorse might help. Your cavalier attitude about the whole thing really doesn't make it look like it's your first time.

I realize that I'm pretty new around here and might be accused of having an agenda, but I am not at all pleased about this. I have bought quite a bit of stuff based on the reviews posted by you and skinnee on his site. Most of it turned out being decent stuff, but to find out that I'm spending money based on recommendations coming from two cheaters doesn't make me very happy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NightCrawler™

I'd rather prevent my good friend from making the mistake in the first place..

---

True and apparently I misread/misunderstood what Vapor said.. :shakes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Serra

Oh wow. I haven't seen something this bad in quite awhile. All of those guys were huge in this community, and to find this out... well, it's quite sad. As others have said, Andre has been the subject of scrutiny before so I cannot say it comes as a complete surprise, but the others?

:shakes:


Even so, I am personally not of lifetime bans - though I do fully respect and understand the decision. So take my statement as more of a discussion on the general topic rather than this incident. It is an unpopular thing to say, but I am for reform instead of execution. It might be the Canadian in me talking in a room largely full of Americans, but that's just how I was raised. Canada has a much, much, much higher reform rate than the US, and I tend to think it's because reform is the goal of our penal programs rather than just punishment.

Similarly, I think that in incidents like this there should definitely be some punishment... but with a chance at reform. Go ahead and ban cheaters, strip off their champion status, and do not let them compete for a period of time. By all means cut off the freebies from any companies that are willing to comply. That is all necessary, without question. But rather than having a fully binary system (access or no access), maybe there is a third option.

After a period of time allow them back, but with restrictions. Maybe any contest they enter in the next year must be accompanied with a set of photographs of the accomplishment, or even video (which is much harder to fake). [To be honest I feel that should be a requirement for any high-level competition anyway, but that's another story]. Do not allow them to compete with hardware they received from a manufacturer (verified through the manufacturer, to the extent possible). Etc. What I'm getting at here is that I think people should be given a chance to earn their way back to our good graces.



Again, with that said, I do fully understand and respect the decision in this case. These are the rules we have in place and they should be respected and must be enforced. I speak of future rule changes and my position on the direction I would like to see them moved towards.

---

:up:

It is like life imprisonment, there is no chance for rehabilitation. Nobody can learn by getting a life-long ban.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by El Maño

There are six guys. What do you mean "in the middle"?

---

Jeez hicookie looks gangster :D

From left to right, hicookie, pro, andre, nickshih, dinos22, don't know

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oj101

OPB pulled some good runs back in the day in front of an audience, he had the skill.

---

So??? He also fell for temptation...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zsamz_

+1
the game been gettin real dirty for the past 2 years
people bendin over for a few $ free hw or a job:down:

---

yeah... :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by massman

THIS.

IS.

WHAT.

PEOPLE.

NEED.

TO.

UN-DER-STAND.

:up:

---

i think people understand it... its companies that dont WANT to understand this... its companies that create demand for cheating cause they want some guys they can send hardware and get a wr in return... they dont want to play the lottery when sending out samples, they want to BUY a wr pretty much... its only a matter of time until somebody fulfills their demands... if you create a certain environment its all about evolution, only takes some time until somebody adapts to it...
thats not meant as an excuse in any way, dont get me wrong!
im just saying, the problem isnt that much with the community and not entirely with the top enthusiasts, but a big part of it is manufacturers as well, which many people dont seem to realize...

im gonna shut up about this though as i have no idea how to improve this situation, so whats the point rambling about it huh? :/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BeepBeep2

Overclocking DOES take talent, however overclocking also means you have lots of $$$$. Without the $$$$ you are nothing.

I'm stuck with a bum CPU and it does not go further. I can't even keep up with similar CPU's.

---

wow... this is... so... soooo sad to read...
this is what overclocking has become, hasnt it?
and no, overclocking has NOTHING to do with money, nothing at all...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by antiacid

Because I don't care about what Joe Schmoe did in his basement with some LN2 and a couple of hours of free time?
I appreciate the effort put into this by enthusiasts around the globe. I appreciate the input I get when I need information regarding "xtreme systems". I don't appreciate it that my hobby is turning into yet another corporate pissing contest, with all associated problems.

Whatever, in the end, I still believe nobody will give a flying poop about this situation for more than a week.

---

thats how it should be imo... the weird part is how much attention those handpicked, corporate ln2 sessions get... its almost like with tv... people know its just tv, but they still somehow think its real and applies to them, same as all this corporate overclocking stuff...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tajoh111

Out of everyone, I think he's the most hardcore in regards to overclocking.

---

what? sorry, i like andre, but no, hes definitely not...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sadasius

Your exactly right too. It is the same in almost anything as well. In bodybuilding nobody cared about the lightweights. They wanted to see the super heavy freaks of nature. In boxing they want to see the big guys kill each other etc etc.

---

yeah but thats the audience... you have your REAL athletes that compete for the sake of competing and pushing themselves and enjoying it, and you have attention wh0res that are only in it cause their mom or dad ignored them as a kid...
you dont have to be no1 to be good, and you dont have to be no1 to be an athlete... thats not what its about... not at all...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Movieman

BUT where did they start?
I guarantee you that there was a day when all of these people were unknown and just experimenting in their homes on modest hardware..
No one was born with these skills,all learned and by the vast majority self taught thru trial and error.

---

sure, i still remember stumbling upon some small blog of a guy nicknamed "the chosen one" playing around with his rig and wondering how people got so high clocks out of their cpus until somebody told him they used subzero cooling :D

thx systemviper for posting the comments from skinee afro and hiwa here :toast:
is it just me or is anybody else confused how several people happened to ask andre for a score at about the same time? at least one of them said that he was OFFERED the score, which makes the whole thing sound really weird...
1. im shocked theyd ask or accept a score from somebody else
2. why did andre do this? nobody seems to ask why...
for the guys, sure, its obvious... but andre? whats his motivation in all this?
he wanted to help them? and by coincidence several people asking him for help at the same time? and this was the first time this ever happened?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by charlie

I don't want to go too far OT... but lower level OC is often times more entertaining than the higher stuff.

Go grab an i3 and a 5830 and make it bark, wag it's tail and cry for supper :D

---

THAT is REAL overclocking imo... :toast:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vapor

I gave my opinion on the "what ifs" with doing this then went to sleep in another room some 45 minutes before skinnee uploaded the score and made it public.

Woke up the next morning and found out multiple scores were under investigation :eh:

---

friends dont let friends cheat :(

hiwa... if you read this... im really dissapointed in you man :(
and no, deleting the scores and going back to bench does NOT fix this...
i had a really great impression of you... HAD... :/ :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dahmer

Lets say you've got a good friend and you're playing some game. He starts to cheat and you don't like it one bit.

You got two choices :
1) you talk some sense into him
2) you report him without him knowing about it

Result of choice 1 will get him banned and he'll probably learn his lesson and wont do it again.
Result of choice 2 will get him banned, you'll lose a good friend and pissed off people like that usually dont learn their lesson.

---

no, no1 should result in him not cheating and there wont be any consequences except for him later realizing what a good friend you are...

andre: ... what the hell dude? :stick:
seriously... i thought youd be smarter than this... what could you possibly get out of this? :confused:
some dirt on several top ocers so you could ask them for favors?

Read through the thread, people talk of him as if he had zero skill and everything was smoke and mirrors behind the scenes ;)

We'll never know what really went down, perhaps he got pissed off with the way overclocking was going and did something ridiculous to get himself banned and make a statement? He had plenty of skill and it seems unlikely that he didn't know the way that the AM3 scoring worked. I'd like to believe that that was purposefully editted incorrectly (if not some completely random bug caused by the system being unstable or something along those lines).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oj101

Read through the thread, people talk of him as if he had zero skill and everything was smoke and mirrors behind the scenes ;)

We'll never know what really went down, perhaps he got pissed off with the way overclocking was going and did something ridiculous to get himself banned and make a statement? He had plenty of skill and it seems unlikely that he didn't know the way that the AM3 scoring worked. I'd like to believe that that was purposefully editted incorrectly (if not some completely random bug caused by the system being unstable or something along those lines).

---

I have no doubt that all of them have skill, but greed has taken over, greed and ego are a very dangerous/ damaging combination we see it in all walks of life.

What I don't understand is how all of them knew to contact Andre for a score?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vapor

I gave my opinion on the "what ifs" with doing this then went to sleep in another room some 45 minutes before skinnee uploaded the score and made it public.

Woke up the next morning and found out multiple scores were under investigation :eh:

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vapor

I told him my thoughts on the matter and left the decision to him and went to bed. He was the one whose name was on it and he was the one who was trying to qualify for MOA.

---

So you were there and had knowledge of what was going on and chose to remain silent. Then when the shat hit the fan you do damage control?

One guy who did the least amount of damage gets toss'd under a bus, but the rest are treated very differently, this is not right. The punishment should be equal to all parties involved INCLUDING YOU.
You are a admin on one of the biggest overclocking sites on the planet, you of all people should have known better. Your only decision was to report the scores if he used them not go to bed and hide your head in the sand. You are just as guilty as the rest. In court you'd be treated just as harsh. But I see kangaroo court is in your favor today.

Just cause you pour syrup over crap dont make it pancakes

I've been reading this hole thread from its begining and somehow i never felt surpised to hear about Andre doing something like that.
Many times in the past he slightly bent the rules in order to be ahead of the competition.He like some people before him he got consumed by his desire to always be No1.
Did we forget about last years "cheat" in the F1OC with the 762? NO
Did we forget about the Gigabyte Contest in which he used ES hardware when it was foriden? NO

Andre you are full of :banana::banana::banana::banana: and many times you called good overclockers cheaters. Gues what,now they all laught at you........

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oj101

:up:

It is like life imprisonment, there is no chance for rehabilitation. Nobody can learn by getting a life-long ban.

---

stop it with your rehab plan ....

I dont think the most important point behind a life-long ban is learning!
Even though there is a feeling that this was just used as an opportunity to ban AY forever (maybe he deserves it - i wouldnt know), i dont think the punishments are too harsh at all. There should always be a strong stance against cheating.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by saaya

i think people understand it... its companies that dont WANT to understand this... its companies that create demand for cheating cause they want some guys they can send hardware and get a wr in return... they dont want to play the lottery when sending out samples, they want to BUY a wr pretty much... its only a matter of time until somebody fulfills their demands... if you create a certain environment its all about evolution, only takes some time until somebody adapts to it...
thats not meant as an excuse in any way, dont get me wrong!
im just saying, the problem isnt that much with the community and not entirely with the top enthusiasts, but a big part of it is manufacturers as well, which many people dont seem to realize...

---

Over the last couple of months I've began to understand exactly what you mean. Now, no one at HWBOT is a miracle worker, so I hope the community understands that whoever screwed up in the past (before hwbot), making manufacturers believe this is the legit way of dealing with the overclocking community, has made these mfcs convinced it can be all for them and nothing for us.

I'm pleased to see that many overclockers and enthusiasts in this thread are sharing your opinion on this topic and are more than willing to call faul play where needed. If it was up to me, things would've been fixed completely by now, but sadly enough I'm just a pion. A few more shocks and we'll get there, I'm sure.

On a sidenote: we also have to realize that some MFCs are turning their way in the right direction. Just think about it ... if someone told you 5 years ago that a major manufacturer would invest a :banana::banana::banana::banana:load of money in live overclocking events all around the world, you would have offered him a taxi drive home because he was too drunk to walk home :D

Knowing that someone cheated and not saying something is very surprising behavior from you Vapor.:down:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleatus

Your only decision was to report the scores if he used them not go to bed and hide your head in the sand. You are just as guilty as the rest. In court you'd be treated just as harsh.

---

The legal term you allude to is "accessory before the fact."



How accessory before the fact is defined:

An accessory must generally have knowledge that a crime is being, or will be committed. A person with such knowledge may become an accessory by helping or encouraging the criminal in some way, or simply by failing to report the crime to proper authority. The assistance to the criminal may be of any type, including emotional or financial assistance as well as physical assistance or concealment.



To be convicted of an accessory charge, the accused must generally be proved to have had actual knowledge that a crime was going to be, or had been, committed. Furthermore, there must be proof that the accessory knew that his or her action, or inaction, was helping the criminals commit the crime, or evade detection, or escape.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oj101

Jeez hicookie looks gangster :D

From left to right, hicookie, pro, andre, nickshih, dinos22, don't know

---

Last one is "Elmor"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Humminn55

The legal term you allude to is "accessory before the fact."



How accessory before the fact is defined:

An accessory must generally have knowledge that a crime is being, or will be committed. A person with such knowledge may become an accessory by helping or encouraging the criminal in some way, or simply by failing to report the crime to proper authority. The assistance to the criminal may be of any type, including emotional or financial assistance as well as physical assistance or concealment.



To be convicted of an accessory charge, the accused must generally be proved to have had actual knowledge that a crime was going to be, or had been, committed. Furthermore, there must be proof that the accessory knew that his or her action, or inaction, was helping the criminals commit the crime, or evade detection, or escape.

---

Assumptions. Dont make them. How can you know what Vapor said at the time to discourage the use of this score?

However I'm curious to what he meant by "we discussed the what if's", like they were measuring the risk of being caught. But that's also an assumption.

Bottom line is that I think FUGGER is all over this matter and will take appropriate action. He did the right thing with AY and the others, and he did it very factual and without unnecessarily smearing dirt over the names of the people involved (which deserves applause).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oj101

Read through the thread, people talk of him as if he had zero skill and everything was smoke and mirrors behind the scenes ;)

---

I never said that Andre or OPB have no skills. I just said that the situation is amazingly similar, as a lot of people including for example George, trusted both Andre and OPB.

Andre had some special mods for the 480's ..unsure if this was partially the cause, but I have yet to see any others with "special" mod ..

+1 :up: for massman and bot crew.. hero's.. for catching this before things got even uglier.

After reading and following this on several fronts, this question is the one that bothers me the most, we know that some stuff happened here, we know who is involved to a point.
But just the idea that several people knew to go to Andre beggs the bigger question which is asked several times.

Quote:

---

The 1st thing I thought. How do 3 guys competing all decide to contact Andre "Phone a Friend" Yang for a competition?

---

this question really scares me, because the implications are much bigger and would involve more people and more events. For there to be a group that knows where to get the "good stuff" implies a underground that passes info and results for the gain of the people "in the know" which would make this much more then this one incident... :shakes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by [XC] riptide

THIS +1

The 1st thing I thought. How do 3 guys competing all decide to contact Andre "Phone a Friend" Yang for a competition?

This leads me to conclude one thing only... that Andre Yang was the 'go-to' man if you needed a dig out and a result. Does anyone know what price or benefit in kind is transferred?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by INJViper

What I don't understand is how all of them knew to contact Andre for a score?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cold Fussion

Has the question been asked as to how they know to go to Andre to get a score? I mean it seems unlikely you'll just ask another 'top' ocer for a score because you were unhappy with your own, and when 3 maybe more people all request a score from Andre, then there is something seriously dirty happening around here. Is this a case Andre letting people know you can get a score from this? It seems a great number of people know this is going on and nothing is being done about it.

---

Wouldn't surprise me if Andre Yang has been playing the local dealer for a while now.

That's true. May be this is going for years?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by systemviper

But just the idea that several people knew to go to Andre beggs the bigger question which is asked several times.


this question really scares me, because the implications are much bigger and would involve more people and more events. For there to be a group that knows where to get the "good stuff" implies a underground that passes info and results for the gain of the people "in the know" which would make this much more then this one incident... :shakes:

---

kinda how its been seen by many..I think. :shrug: was having Andre run benchies a way around NDA for disclosing mods..? :shrug: