The official GT300/Fermi Thread

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Originally Posted by Manicdan

they have a demo showing very nice water movements, just cause one game only uses a few things, does not mean you cant do something

not very uncommon. go play the last level of HL:2, ragdoll at its funnest.

that video used all 8 threads of the processor, expect the average person to be on duel cores or quads, and expect the game already takes up 50-80% (depends on cores and how cpu limited the game is and at what settings they play) and whats left is a cpu 2-4x weaker than an i7, using up 2/3 of its power before physics, and the result is a average person can do only about 1/10th of what was shown while playing a game.


so much miss information. not all of us have 8 threaded rigs, i7 was 1% of intels cpu sales last year. and how many of us have a 2P amd rig? like 3 or 4 of us? and where do you see a real comparison between cpu and gpu physics, where some unbiased party did the review? pls show us where this tri-sli statement comes from.

so far most of your posts are full of information with no sources and never backed up. go take a look at what real GPU demos can do.

for other points, they need to start making physics scale properly. at what point do i care about how cool a flag waves, vs having 60fps locked. a good physics engine should know how to load balance properly so we can decide its importance. weve been gpu limited, cpu limited, and now were gonna see physics limiting framerates and the only solution is to drop the quality and replay the map (unacceptable in my opinion)

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I think your missing the point mate. The thing with evolution of hardware and software is that you always try do the best. If developers did only things that can run perfectly on present hardware, we would have a stalemate, things would not evolve.

We, the users, want new cool things, things which push us to upgrade. Remember FEAR 1? Or oblivion? Or Doom3? Or Crysis. Those are aplication which barely run or have run on average joe hardware and they pushed hardware evolution.
I think it's safe to assume that doing really complex physics to really stress a CPU or GPU would only do good to this industry, but, doing it on a CPU guarantees that everyone can take advantage of those effects, while doing it in a closed API, like Physx, means only people with nvidia cards get to benefit.

I don't mind nvidia keeping it as a closed API, it's good for them to do that and kudos to them for that, but personally i like open standards, standards that do not force me to buy a specific hardware to enjoy them. That's the fun about PC's anyway, you have millions of configurations, but the software runs on all of them.

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Originally Posted by Florinmocanu

I think your missing the point mate. The thing with evolution of hardware and software is that you always try do the best. If developers did only things that can run perfectly on present hardware, we would have a stalemate, things would not evolve.

We, the users, want new cool things, things which push us to upgrade. Remember FEAR 1? Or oblivion? Or Doom3? Or Crysis. Those are aplication which barely run or have run on average joe hardware and they pushed hardware evolution.
I think it's safe to assume that doing really complex physics to really stress a CPU or GPU would only do good to this industry, but, doing it on a CPU guarantees that everyone can take advantage of those effects, while doing it in a closed API, like Physx, means only people with nvidia cards get to benefit.

I don't mind nvidia keeping it as a closed API, it's good for them to do that and kudos to them for that, but personally i like open standards, standards that do not force me to buy a specific hardware to enjoy them. That's the fun about PC's anyway, you have millions of configurations, but the software runs on all of them.

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Completely agree.

7 years ago NVIDIA tested packed GPUs from Fab like this:

http://www.io-media.fi/temp/fermi/anand_nv30_1.jpg

http://www.io-media.fi/temp/fermi/anand_nv30_3.jpg

We know Fermi is a working silicon:

http://plaza.fi/s/f/editor/images/20091001fermi6.jpg

So I wonder how does today's Fermi test board look like? Does it really have a lot of wires sticking out, as well as test modules, and looks like a character from Terminator like Fudo describes or is it something similar to year 2002's test board:)

sampsa you and me and almost everyone else knows what way the gpu looks like.... for sure there isnt any cable hanging around

I'm afraid that the board design is still not ready. So, signal strengths, impedances and capacitances have to be adjusted for stable operation and to allow maximum performance/frequencies. That you would do with some wires connecting extra capacitors etc.

I was speaking with Fudo about Fermi and the state of the industry over dinner the other night in San Jose. It is definitely confirmed for November.



A couple top NV execs did mention that the architecture would launch on a Tuesday. Now I'm not a conspiracy theorist or anything, but check this out:

three main possibilities for late November / Black Friday

Tuesday, November 17
Tuesday, November 24
Tuesday, December 1

If Fermi does in fact launch on the 17th, then.....

November 17, 2006 - launch of PlayStation 3
November 17, 2007 - launch of Crysis
November 17, 2008 - launch of Core i7
November 17, 2009 - ???

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Originally Posted by Florinmocanu

I think your missing the point mate. The thing with evolution of hardware and software is that you always try do the best. If developers did only things that can run perfectly on present hardware, we would have a stalemate, things would not evolve.

We, the users, want new cool things, things which push us to upgrade. Remember FEAR 1? Or oblivion? Or Doom3? Or Crysis. Those are aplication which barely run or have run on average joe hardware and they pushed hardware evolution.
I think it's safe to assume that doing really complex physics to really stress a CPU or GPU would only do good to this industry, but, doing it on a CPU guarantees that everyone can take advantage of those effects, while doing it in a closed API, like Physx, means only people with nvidia cards get to benefit.

I don't mind nvidia keeping it as a closed API, it's good for them to do that and kudos to them for that, but personally i like open standards, standards that do not force me to buy a specific hardware to enjoy them. That's the fun about PC's anyway, you have millions of configurations, but the software runs on all of them.

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i agree too, there are many points and i may not have touched on all of them in that one post. i was trying to prove that just cause you can do some cool things on an i7, does not mean GPU physics is crap.

when it comes to implementing new tech on hardware, i think the biggest set back is visual eye candy vs real gameplay necessities. in HL2 you cannot turn off physics and you need it to play. however what would happen if in HL3 you need to have materials that can bend or shatter and fluid dynamics. i dont think we could run that on the CPU, but if only ATI cards support it, we then have a serious issue where only have the PCs can even run that game, not just run a little extra eye candy. (this sounds like it should be in a different thread already going, how did this thread even turn into a physx battle?)

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Originally Posted by AuDioFreaK39

I was speaking with Fudo about Fermi and the state of the industry over dinner the other night in San Jose. It is definitely confirmed for November.



A couple top NV execs did mention that the architecture would launch on a Tuesday. Now I'm not a conspiracy theorist or anything, but check this out:

three main possibilities for late November / Black Friday

Tuesday, November 17
Tuesday, November 24
Tuesday, December 1

If Fermi does in fact launch on the 17th, then.....

November 17, 2006 - launch of PlayStation 3
November 17, 2007 - launch of Crysis
November 17, 2008 - launch of Core i7
November 17, 2009 - ???

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Ahh! Lets get out of here :sofa:

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Originally Posted by AuDioFreaK39

I was speaking with Fudo about Fermi and the state of the industry over dinner the other night in San Jose. It is definitely confirmed for November.

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Well going by Fuds own articles, we see such things as If all goes well and This date can easily slip so saying definitely conflicts with Fuad's articles. Actually his articles often conflict with his own articles.

I don't think a November launch is too far-fetched, however, a November hard launch sounds really far fetched :)

It isn't that hard for Nvidia to get 50 cards working by November, send them to various tech sites and send like 1 card to each dealer

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Originally Posted by annihilat0r

I don't think a November launch is too far-fetched, however, a November hard launch sounds really far fetched :)

It isn't that hard for Nvidia to get 50 cards working by November, send them to various tech sites and send like 1 card to each dealer

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Couldn't agree with you more sir. :up:

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Originally Posted by Xoulz

LOL... :rofl:


CPU physics are more powerful...! Where have you been? All that Nvidia's PhysX offers, is ancillary "fluff" (ie: glass breaking, tiles breaking, paper shuffling on the floor, etc), it's all superficial to actually whats going on in the game. Eye candy! :down:

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absolutely WRONG. a core i7 will get 140glops peak. a 5870 will get up to 2 teraflops. you really dont know what you are talking about you are just trolling on physx.

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That^^ puffery is not the type of physics we are asking for and demanding in games. Batman's/Mirror's Edge overdone, superficial physx, is not what we are discussing in this thread. Carmack, DICE, etc all have been using real physical environments using the CPU for YEARS...! UNO? actual physical objects. Like a piece of fuselage being turn off a fighter from AA, and having that land on the road in front of you, as you run it over in the jeep, only to have it kick up and kill the other in the jeep behind you....!

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again you are wrong. it is STILL PHYSICS regardless of what it used on. the reason why physics and other computation has moved from the cpu to gpu is becuase gpu's are more powerful, efficient, and they are becoming more and more programmable. i still dont see how the objects in batman or any other game are not

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We've had these real deformable objects in games for years. Developers just haven't been able to make heavy use of physics or the power to make full use of multi-threading yet. So that everything within a scene is basically it's own object.(bulldozer?). Just look at Battlefield 1943.. massive use of CPU physics! or (again) THIS video.


Nvidia can't touch that!


The reason nVidia is marketing flowing capes, ancillary paper, broken tiles and such, is because they know it would take quad-SLI to have real physics.

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cloth and fluid physics are much more computationaly intensive. showing a bunch of boxes colliding isnt exactly that hard. you realize a quad sli system could deliver amazing real time physics. like nothing we have ever seen.this is a gpu setup running an n body simulation. that will be done in real time within a few years. its about 400x faster on a gpu.

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The Intel Core i7 920 is only $240 folks... less than a GTX285. Think on it!

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no a cheap core i7 setup is $600 and you get much less flops per dollar.

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PhysX is no different than Havoc, except Nvidia bought and started to support it minimally in their own video cards, so you didn't need a separate physics card... back when dual-core CPU's were just rumors. Now almost all of us have 8 threaded rigs...

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physx is supported by consoles and 70 million gpu's. now you say physx is no different than havok? you contradict yourself.

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You would need tri-sli to equal what the i7 can do. (ie: Velocity physic engine video)

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Xoulz, you need to stop posting misinformation. thats just simply wrong. it seems like dr. who has trained you to hate nvidia. you have not even tried physx and you act like the cpu is something amazing. all that extra logic that makes a cpu "smart" is a waste of die space.

Chiphell forums is rumouring X10000 for a low-clocked early GF100. GTX295 is like X9k, 5870 is ~ X8.5k, 5870 CF is ~13-14k. So I expect ~11-12k Extreme from the card with final clocks, which puts it between a GTX295 & HD5870X2.

http://i34.tinypic.com/sce74l.jpg

http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/h...3dmark_vantage

http://bbs.chiphell.com/viewthread.php?tid=56185

Nvidia models their chips on supercomputers, while ATI doesn't. This information, however, is a couple of years old, so I'm not sure how the situation is now. Think from the 2900 era.

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Originally Posted by AuDioFreaK39

I was speaking with Fudo about Fermi and the state of the industry over dinner the other night in San Jose. It is definitely confirmed for November.



A couple top NV execs did mention that the architecture would launch on a Tuesday. Now I'm not a conspiracy theorist or anything, but check this out:

three main possibilities for late November / Black Friday

Tuesday, November 17
Tuesday, November 24
Tuesday, December 1

If Fermi does in fact launch on the 17th, then.....

November 17, 2006 - launch of PlayStation 3
November 17, 2007 - launch of Crysis
November 17, 2008 - launch of Core i7
November 17, 2009 - ???

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Sweet I can't wait!

might be a similar situation to 4850x2 edging out gtx280, 5850x2 might edge out gtx380. Talking solely Nvidia GTX295 < GTX380 < GTX285 sli

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Originally Posted by Chumbucket843

all that extra logic that makes a cpu "smart" is a waste of die space.

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I'm speechless.

Edit: Unless talking about CPU for PhysX processing.

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Originally Posted by 003

What?? I have Mirrors Edge and have seen demos of Batman: AA and the batman physX looks way cooler than mirrors edge. In ME, all you get are some hanging flaps and random tarps. Batman: AA actually adds to the environment.

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like what? give me an example of physix awesomeness in batman pls...
the 5 tiles that crack when jumping onto them that takes a gtx260 to single digit fps? the volumetric fog that reminds me of counter strikes implementation which obviously runs just fine on way way old hardware? the few pieces of newspapers that flow around when fighting, that look totally unrealistic in how they fly around?

mirrors edge had glass breaking into lots of pieces and scatter, waving flags and banners, that all looked better than batman imo, and it didnt castrate fps...

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Originally Posted by AuDioFreaK39

I was speaking with Fudo about Fermi and the state of the industry over dinner the other night in San Jose.

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wow! so you actually met THE famous fudo in person? :eek:

and wow, it will launch in november...
hey, im not a conspiracy theorist, but the geforce fx paper launch was in november as well ;)

If it really launches in November it will be the biggest and most obvious paper launch ever.

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Originally Posted by hurleybird

If it really launches in November it will be the biggest and most obvious paper launch ever.

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Yeah I agree. Unless they are hiding something I can imagine quantities that make it hard to get as an asus mars edition.

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Originally Posted by saaya

wow! so you actually met THE famous fudo in person? :eek:

and wow, it will launch in november...
hey, im not a conspiracy theorist, but the geforce fx paper launch was in november as well ;)

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DIDNT YOU HEAR SAAYA? The gt300 was launched in november, but the boat full of gt300's dissapeared after it was hijacked by the pirates of the carribean. Now theres pirates benching CRYSIS, and there isn't any gt300's to put in stockings for christmas. Even santa couldnt find a gt300 to play his new "reindeer hunter" game, but I was told by Fudo that there will be plenty of gt300 stickers to rename ATi 5870's with to fill stockings from jolly St. Nick. Also if you were a good little fanboy you also got a Physx demo of "A Can of Whoop A$$" that demonstrates how Physx can enhance the effects of how a aluminum soda can rolls on the floor, it will debut in the new DX11 game "Kick the Can". Unfortunately Ati users without Physx wont have rolling cans or AA.:rofl:

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Originally Posted by To(V)bo Co(V)bo

DIDNT YOU HEAR SAAYA? The gt300 was launched in november, but the boat full of gt300's dissapeared after it was hijacked by the pirates of the carribean. Now theres pirates playing CRYSIS, and there isn't any gt300's to put in stockings for christmas. Even santa couldnt find a gt300 to play his new "reindeer hunter" game, but I was told by Fudo that there will be plenty of gt300 stickers to rename ATi 5870's with to fill stockings from jolly St. Nick. Also if you were a good little fanboy you also got a Physx demo of "A Can of Whoop A$$" that demonstrates how Physx can enhance the effects of how a aluminum soda can rolls on the floor, it will debut in the new DX11 game "Kick the Can". Unfortunately Ati users without Physx wont have rolling cans or AA.:rofl:

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http://www.saynotocrack.com/wp-conte...8/12/troll.jpg

given the changes to it's march, the increase in shaders, and increase in bandwidth i don't see why a performance increase of 2.4x over the gtx280 is unreasonable. my guess:
gtx380 vs 5870x2
gtx360 vs 5870
gts350 vs 5850
gts340 vs 5770

:2cents:

Honestly I think
5870X2 will be better than gtx380
5850X2~gtx380
5870~gtx360

I not bashin nvidia, just hopeing there not feeding me some more kool-aid, cuz I really would buy one if its affordable.

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Originally Posted by Chumbucket843

absolutely WRONG. a core i7 will get 140glops peak. a 5870 will get up to 2 teraflops. you really dont know what you are talking about you are just trolling on physx.

again you are wrong. it is STILL PHYSICS regardless of what it used on. the reason why physics and other computation has moved from the cpu to gpu is becuase gpu's are more powerful, efficient, and they are becoming more and more programmable. i still dont see how the objects in batman or any other game are not

cloth and fluid physics are much more computationaly intensive. showing a bunch of boxes colliding isnt exactly that hard. you realize a quad sli system could deliver amazing real time physics. like nothing we have ever seen.this is a gpu setup running an n body simulation. that will be done in real time within a few years. its about 400x faster on a gpu.
no a cheap core i7 setup is $600 and you get much less flops per dollar.

physx is supported by consoles and 70 million gpu's. now you say physx is no different than havok? you contradict yourself.

Xoulz, you need to stop posting misinformation. thats just simply wrong. it seems like dr. who has trained you to hate nvidia. you have not even tried physx and you act like the cpu is something amazing. all that extra logic that makes a cpu "smart" is a waste of die space.

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Bro, you do understand that PhysX can and does run on the CPU...! It doesn't require a Nvidia GPU... until Nvidia bought Ageia and decided to code idle GPU resources to speed up PhysX. Then decided to market THAT ability as revolutionary. :rolleyes:

So, how often do you have idle GPU time when playing a modern game..? Show me a PhysX simulation that has 3500 objects swirling around a tornado on a single Nvidia card... :rofl:
It won't happen.. not even on 2 nVidia GPU's.. not even on THREE nVidia GPU's.. Go ahead, find a PhysX demo where they have any amount of real physical objects being moved around, specially that move as fluently as those in the Velocity engine demo.



Yes, the GPU is a powerful tool for physics, but it is not the end-all solution that every PhysX fanboi is making it out to be. More often than not, people who drool over PhysX are ignorant of what an API is and how/why PhysX is moot. Now, programmable anything isn't any sort of rebuttal, because we now have an open standard for all of that...


Lastly, I do not hate any company, I'm not one to take sides. I am simple discussing technologies and standards. Video cards first and for most have to handle the GAME, before any idle processing can work on physics, unless your gameplay experience will dwindle with reduced FPS. Thats how PhysX works.

UNLESS.... you buy another $300 video card to handle the burden using PhysX! :ROTF: (or, if you just want ancillary tile breakage, floating paper, glass shattering and "fluff", stick with a single card). <---fact!


What can a single Nvidia card do..? Scour the internet bro, show us!




btw, can someone kindly inform Manicdan, there is no need for him to reply to my posts, I have him on IGNORE.