Ah, okay. I see. The 6.4GT setting.
Printable View
Ah, okay. I see. The 6.4GT setting.
been trying for 4k uncore on 2k c8 mhz dom GTs @ i7 920 on this board. Been pulling my hair for a week now and it won't stay stable on prime blend custom 5400 gb in diagnostics mode. Any guidelines on how to do this?
Put everything to full auto (load bios defaults and reboot).
Then manually set the CPU multi to 13x, and in ram setup pick the XMP profile.
Pick a multi that gives you 2000 or close to that (1:14 is closest i think) but dont go over it.
Reboot, go in BIOS, see the values it has picked for you. You'll certainly have to correct VTT (which XMP seems to overshoot). Vdimm should be 1.65V for this kit.
Boot in OS and Memtest, run stress tests, lower VTT, repeat until crash.
Now you have your minimum memory setting but remember if you want to OC your 920 you'll have to lower the RAM multi since you'll be raising the BCLK, or you'll get over 2000MHz which results in a whole new world of problems.
Is your 920 able to run 4GHz Uncore without RAM being at 2000?
Maybe you could do yourself the favour to fill out (copy it here and fill out) the BIOS template for the classified:
http://www.evga.com/forums/tm.asp?m=...&key=%EF%BF%BD
:D
It's not easy to find the right balance between vtt and vdimm and the fitting RTL configuration. Subtimings matter as well. So please be detailed and it would definitely help to get you a signature with your system specs so that we can see what you got at first glance. ;)
Seems to be dead link now, maybe you mean this one ?
Here are the screenshots. I'll edit this post with Bios template in a bit. Edit: Checked the bios, for 4 ghz screenie and everything was on Auto on Voltage menu except Vcore at 1.6250 and Vdimm at 1.550v. Cpu features all off except all cores. I'm setting minimal voltages and rerunning linx 25 runs. my bios settings and e-leet read seems to have a very huge difference. =.="
Signature updated too ^^ Thanks a lot for helping me. I didn't expect to get so many responses so quickly.
Yep, link was from OP. I dd not check whether it works or not. :D
No problem, mate. Here for help <- me.
BTW, I cannot see anything on those tiny screens. :p:
/edit. Better now^^ :up:
//edit.
k. I would say your settings are fine from what i could see in the screens so far (ain't much ;) ). I'd recommend to let realtemp run while stresstesting. I'd further recommend to open up an eleet window showing set voltages for such screens. It's much easier for us to see if something's wrong.
@4.5GHz you cannot use the 10x ram multiplier without ocing your DomGT far away from specs. I guess it can be done with the right sticks and settings, but it depends on temps and the willingness to drive voltages to their limits. :D
///edit. :D
The signature is visible in your profile, but not below your posts. Pls check if you enabled displaying the signature in user control panel.
I'm actually aiming for 4 ghz (20x201)CPU/4k uncore/Ram at 2k mhz 8-8-8-24 1T then only go for 4.2 ghz (21x201)/4k uncore Ram at 2k mhz 7-8-7-24 1T... 4.5 ghz HT on was already on 85C max temp on linx so i'm just gonna leave it as it is. Screenies were just to show it runs fine at 4 ghz 3200 uncore without touching ram multi as per your question earlier. I'm rerunning linx with voltages set instead of Auto and will edit screenshot and signature as per your advice too. Sorry i'm new here and wasn't sure how to add it to the signature.
Hmm, I think you misunderstood my request. You should try to run 21x200 8x Ram and 20x Uncore first to make sure your uncore can take it. Next step would be to up the ram multi to 10x if stable.
omg i got it all wrong. so I can use the settings I posted but raise uncore to 20x and raise VTT notch by notch only until its stable? Also which stability test is better for uncore? Prime95 blend custom 5400 or linx all ram?
For Uncore/RAM testing prime x64 w/5.5GB mem usage is best IMO. Be careful with Vtt and don't go over +300mV. Under water those IMCs get damn hot, especially if you increase vtt + vdimm, that you could burn it priming for too long. The highest I used was +275mV resulting in 1.459V loaded Vtt under watercooling.
can anyone confirm/deny that westmere works on 759/760/762 without hardware mod?
i want to run my x5677 in a 762 if possible.
I can only tell what I read... for Rev.1.0 boards there have to be soldered two smds - you can find a descriptionon kingpin cooling forums.
Rev.1.1 is said to work with Westmere without these mods. Ask shamino (Lardarse) for confirmation.
thanks for the warnin SAE
how long should I run prime for with the above settings? I ran linx and it passed 25 runs @ CPU VTT Voltage 1.2v at 1.37500v in e-leet voltages tab before u replied now I'm running prime and so far its stable. What do I do next once it passes prime?
So you made sure 4GHz Uncore are stable, you can now tell what vtt is needed the least.
I would say you set the memory to xmp in bios and watch the timings being set in memory menu. DO NOT let it use xmp though as it sets Vtt way too high. You may be able to just change voltages using xmp, but i am not sure. Use xmp timings, +175 Vtt, 1.63-1.64V Vdimm - depends on what you get from overvolting vdimm circuits (eleet is a good indicator for vdimm and relativley spot-on). You should not go over 1.65V real vdimm first, as specs and binning from corsair are being "conservative" imho. There's often much more in those GT sticks. Don't forget to set the ram multiplier to 10x manually. xmp may set it to 14x.
BTW, you may need one or two notches more vcore with this kind of imc stress.
Yup earlier prime95 crashed BSOD 0x0000003B. I had to increase vcore 1 notch. Running in for 2 hours now. I'm just gonna let it run for another 15 mins before running xmp with edited voltages and ram multi as how u advised. Will edit this post with results.. if it crashes, does it mean I can rule out lack of vtt as the reason?
edit: xmp sets trfc to 110. shouldn't it be 88 for c8?
edit: yeah I'm testing with xmp first. looks good so far. I set vdimm to 1.63. e-leet reading is 1.69. Is there anyway to open 2x e-leet windows?
Probably the reason I'm pulling my hair for a week is because if trfc settings being set to 88 and the rig refuses to stay stable for 2 hour prime 5.4gb runs.
edit: Prime95 froze @ 7th test. increasing vcore 1 notch and rerunning it. increasing vcore 1 notch caused it to crash at 2nd test. backed down vcore 1 notch now and increased vdimm to 1.64v.. prime95 restarted.. its looking like its the same as when I'm running trfc 88..sigh. Now trying vcore up 2 notchs and vdimm at 1.64v. prime froze again after 3 tests.
110 is more on the safe side, but a lil slower. Pls test with xmp timings first to make sure, everything is working as intended. You can tweak based on these settings later.
Vtt errors have often been failing cores in prime x64 for me. Sometimes you get bsods with that ...0x00000124 line.
so each time 1 worker stopped means increase vtt?
May help. If not, I would try vdimm or vcore.
But there are various settings going hand-in-hand. Important for me were:
- IOH / QPI PLL 1.15V both
- CPU and IOH PLL 1.5 or even 1.35V were most stable
- ICH 1.075V was best
- keeping vdimm 0.235 - 0.275V higher than vtt has worked best for me
- Vcore had to be increased by 3 notches for tight timings at 2000 and needed high uncore vs. 8x ram and 16x uncore at same clocks
thanks a lot SAE. I've never seen my rig this stable with that cpu clock together with that uncore and ram freq. played with these voltages the whole night and was still unstable. Got pissed and turned on turbo. turned up some vcore and tweaked DIMM DQ vRef to -50 and used 1.61 vdimm which was the one that gave me the most runs b4 it crashes. I was just trying my luck and don't even really know when to adjust DIMM DQ vRef lol ...and got this.. this is just wierd =.=". Gonna let it run for one whole night and see what happens. if this is stable overnight gonna try for 7-8-7-24. Is that possible with this sticks with just air cooling on the ram?
7-8-7-xx should be possible, of course. Depends on your sticks though. Aircooling is enough, my 1057 7-8-7-21 1N were on air as well (stock Corsair dual fan). You might have to up vdimm a bit to run 7-8-7-21. Try it out if stable. Big thumbs up for ya. :up:
Are the voltage monitor readings on ELEET overstated? Like the VTT? I'm on Bios 59.
It seems that when I use +100mV it says CPU VTT is 1.4v but in the voltage section it says 1.3v? I think the latter is correct. Just wanted to check
Eleet overshoots some readings such as VTT and Vdimm yes. BIOS readings are more accurate.
SAE, we can definitely set voltages manually with XMP profile. That's what i am using (with great results on benches so far) so XMP actually sets the timings, and i set the voltages myself.
So far my memory benches are more than excellent so i will keep these seettings.
Thanks. Is it just the vDIMM and VTT volts? I'm too lazy to buy a multimeter atm...
Vdimm is just being rounded up to the next 100th. 1.667V via DMM is 1.67V on Eleet.
Vtt is showing about 0.1V too much for many people. Measured via DMM there's even less voltage than what was set. 1.35V BIOS (+150) equals 1.324V loaded for me, while Eleet is reading 1.44V!
Hehe looks like i'll need to buy a DMM to check my specific system. I am 99% sure though that the VTT is overstating volts
Hmm. You set it up using XMP with custom voltages and then you just modified the main timings?
Do you still use VREF = -50? Maybe change that, cause i never used vref successfully (should try it later though). I also could not find anything positive from using diffent skew values.
CL7 definitely stresses the IMC more. So Vtt, Vdimm, Vcore may need some lil extra voltage.
One app I found quite useful for memory testing was HCI Memtest for Windows. I was using older versions... with 8 thread you should open 8 instances of it and divide the free memory (to be tested) into 8 equal parts. So every thread (4 virtual, 4 cores) is being stressed and results are more reliable than memtest for dos as that's only using one core.
http://www.hcidesign.com/memtest/
I was still at c8 with xmp with modified timings. Wasn't pleased with 2 hours prime with 2 workers stopped. Frustrated as hell. Thought I was closer to getting it stable but rerunning prime got me restarts within 10 mins...i'm back to square 1...
ok I'll try HCIDesign memtest. HT off = 4 instances with 5400/4?
sae bro
i found the solution for 210mhz 7-8-7-20 1n 2100mhz with maintaining that two setting at 4 instead of 6
now the hard part is getting to 2150
Nicey. What was the problem?
DO you guys have the VDropp enabled or disabled? I OCed my setup and Vdroop is enabled with a few sttings on auto etc.
It depends on the board's auto detection routine, that sets the RTL timings according to clocks, timings and some imc feedback iirc. Funny thing is, RTL can get determined differently every boot. So there's no fixed values. For me RTL was working fine at 53-55-57 or 53-56-58 at 2000 7-7-7-20 and the higer i got, the slower i had to set them up. 1057 7-8-7-21 was like 56-58-60 then. But you may have to set them to 55-57-59 first to try if stable. Later you can tweak them more.
Hey buddy,
thanks. Looking forward to it. I did not check out the newer bioses as they're optimized for GT/WM, yet.
I cannot do any testing atm, as there's problems with my cpu cooling. But I hope I can commence with serious clocking by the end of may.
7-7-7-21 false lol.. can pass linx 100 runs but will fail prime 95 5.4gb
shows how bad linx is on detecting dram main timings.
linx is however pretty good for the uncore/ioh subtimings
7-8-7-20 it is
I just upgraded my CPU from a 920 to a 980X. To be sure to have full CPU microcode support, I updated to the latest BIOS (59 IIRC). Now that I am starting to overclock the CPU, I found a minor issue upon rebooting the computer. The system reboots, then the system powers off momentarily, the powers back on. Watching the debug LED, it scrolls through several numbers, displays "68" for a half second, then it powers off as it changes to "69."
I found this thread here:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=218840
...which shows this:
Do any of you feel that this is an instability, or is this a function that's necessary upon overclocking?Quote:
68 PM Init
69 Init Cache Controller
So which BIOS has been the best for Bloomfield subzero?
Board?
SAE bro. First time pass 2 hour prime blend 5.4gb. TRFC at 110 though will try with 88 before I sleep...RTLS are 60,61,62. I hope it doesn't go to hell after a reboot like last time.
Also if 1.66 vdimm is needed for C8 that as per CSTKL's post it probably means around 1.76 vdimm would be needed for C7. Is it safe to run it with so high vdimm with only Corsair Ram Air cooler?
Hmm, weird it needs this much vtt... I guess that's why the vdimm has to be 1.66V (quite high). But you don't have to worry about aircooling the ram, many guys don't cool their ram at all. The Corsair RAM fan is intended to be used with overclocking. And those hyper can stand 1.7V easily, as long as it's not from the faulty batch.
hmm try this bliz
only do the timings 8-8-8-24 1n tfaw 30
set both pwm frequency to the lowest
cpu and ioh pll 1.8 set to 1.5v
ich 1.05 to 1.1v
if u have to use vtt pwm at 3xx and cpu at 9xx use cpu ske 100
try this.
also want to question u..
ure cpu 8 pin eps power are u using two or one on ure board
and if one which one??
Maybe the ram is the problem and not the imc... if the corsair won't run its specs, it may be time for rma. maybe you should contact the corsair reps here to ask for assistance, first. you already tested uncore capabilies independantly. They will probably ask you to test with near stock clocks and 14x ram multiplier (143mhz bclk) to be sure.
/edit. cstkl1, mate. I think it should run at xmp settings at least. those are quite conservative. he adjusted voltages and found stable ones... I think corsair's binning is superior, but maybe those rams are degrading (old hypers?).
Maybe he should try your suggestet settings and then - if no success - he should test at 21x143 14x ram xmp with reduced vtt. if it does not work out, i will need to contact the corsair reps.
yeah I've done 201x12 before and had no luck at all. XMP only runs it at 1866 not sure why as its a 2000 mhz ram. Also heard new CMT's are not as impressive but i'm not sure if its true thats y i'm holding me back about RMAing these TRXxxXXXXGTF sticks. I'll try cstkl1's advice and see how it goes. I'm addicted to this :banana::banana::banana::banana: so I'm fine doing it over and over again.
Btw I am really grateful that 2 of you guys are helping me out so much.. :clap:
ram and uncore can be biatchy. :D
well try using one.. only for the cpu.. wont make a difference
i noticed with one of my friends rig that was using a cm power supply that his vtt issue aka pwm frequency
hard to get into detail. but he was getting a lot of inconsistent results when using two
and correct if i am wrong.. the cpu pin use the bottom and leave the top one empty
yeah sae bro something weird about his ram and proc
blizz here is another hint
whatever voltage u get to be stable for 1866 CL7-8-7-20 is the same for 2000 8-8-8-24 and 1600 6-6-6-18 for elpida hypers
quite predictable .. on 5 kits i had
Woke up to a restarted comp T_T. But i think it went through at least 8 hours. It was at 5 hours before I went to bed last night. Need to check events to get the exact time when I get home. Any idea which item to enable in diagnostic mode to enable event viewing?
I've tried your suggestion cstkl, the voltages and ram settings and the cpu power. I dun think cpu power did any difference but I'm just gonna leave it with the bottom socket connected since its a pain in the arse to put it back. Tried to lower voltages with those settings and it just won't prime for more than 10 mins closest I have was 1.425 vtt and 1.64vdimm, 1 worker stopped after just 4 tests. others just restart/hang within 9 tests. I'm now trying it on the same voltages which I had on last night running quite stable which is 1.66vdimm and 1.45vtt with your ram settings instead of xmp ones. It passed 10 minutes but I really have to get to work. Hopefully it will still be alive when I get back from work. Now I really think its the ram since i'm able to run 4000 uncore with only 1.4 vtt with 2:8 multi. hmmm. is it safe to assume so? any idea who are the corsair reps that I should talk to for RMA? I hope it can be done fast as they are my only sticks.
if all fails, I'll try for 1866 7-8-7-20 tonight. thanks a lot for the hints ^^
1.4v for vtt sounds right
but 1.66v for 8-8-8-24.. thats a no no
think each mobo is normally different and their voltages needed are different
so the binning for 2k c8.. for a evga classy and dfi should be way less than 1.65v since boards like asus etc needs more vdimm than dfi/evga
so this ram of ures on a asus would need more than 1.66v
rma with corsair.. u have to use that online thingy on their website
they will give u the rma number
then u ship it.
always help if u give them a screenshot of memtest failing at 1.65v
yeah. Agree with that, the guy who sold me DFI DK and i7 920 did 1.64vdimm 1.37vtt @ 2000 mhz 8-9-8-24 with Corsair dominators(not GT) 1600 mhz C7.
I was so stubborn not to set the ram my sticks above 1.65vdimm but in the end I did and it was running fine.. Should I just RMA the sticks? or are these RMa-able?
i bought used bro. Since the receipt states its from Cycom I can confirm its Cudo's sticks. How long did it take to get yours replaced? Just afraid RMA process too long.
they might have a stick
Call cycom.. ask for bill. Bong doesnt work there anymore and has gone to viewnet. no need to tell him second hand etc.
U have the warranty. Ask him whether Cudo has stock. then tell him Ure ram has degraded and u want to rma.
if ure lucky u can do 1:1. if not u have to do direct.
well direct to US +shipping etc around 2-3 weeks turn around
CUDO depends.. normally longer
fastest always been team and ocz lol.. one week from Taiwan/US
ohhh nice. I'll do that. hope they have stock which they normally don't. Thanks again bro.
the E759 is more hot ?
Hotter because of the Nf200, if that's what you meant...
/edit. lool... I should refresh b4 posting.
bliz been sometime i ran a c8
but i went back to look at last time my kingston on dfi
can u test with this subtimings on this page
there 2k c8 rtl 58,60,62
lol used to run tFAW 24 lol.. i noticed. wondering now y i kept saying tfaw 30..hmmm
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=224040
i am redoing my 2100 for 8-8-8-24 at 1.58v
i noticed that evga default tRRD is 6 which is not as stable as DFI 5
so set 8-8-8-24 1n tRRD 5 , rtl 58,60/61,62/63
so i hard set 4 items in memory settings in bios?
1) 8-8-8-24-1n
2) TRRD 5
3) RTLS 58, 60/61, 62/63
4) TFAW 24
great lemme try and see. Wonder if it would help reduce vtt and vdimm T_T
wow those hyper x you had were dam good sticks =.=" I guess you sold it to upgrade to c7
btw cstkl bro. I spoke to bill. He said both places no stock sometimes need to wait up to 2 months for RMA.. shoot me.Anywyas he will double check on monday and let me know.
no i bought it when i was rmaing my gt 2k c7
ure damn lucky u werent the early adopters
look at the gt thread
i bought it and :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:ed that the r2e which was certified can run .. couldnt.. so much bull:banana::banana::banana::banana: by other ppl
then change to dfi.. presto it works..
then dfi release a new bios which eva and i tested on a few new settings which we recommended the rtl for it.. vtt all dropped
then measured by vdimm it ran 7-8-7-20 only at 1.656v... which is not acceptable as the reasons i gave to u above.
same proc which all this ppl last time said was my imc issue now running at 2.1k C7.
i had tested a lot of procs.. all could run 2k C7 , C0,D0. except for one that couldnt do bclk 200..
so bliz.. remember with high dram u need to have a good setup overall. mobo also is another thing.
i am running up to 2130 C7/C8 atm on ioh/ich etc all stock 1.1v
it was more apparent last time with RE and other x48 mobo's that sometime mobo batches also count for high dram overclocking.
Anyone using a ST1200W with an E760? Any thoughts, problems, etc?
I have problems with clocking with Evga Classified E760. Mobo starts failing 3DMark06 after 4,4Ghz. I have run 4,58Ghz even with my old Rampage II GENE. I have tried many voltages, two different BIOSes. My temps are fine (Under 60 @ Prime @ 4,2Ghz). I have connected 8 + 4 pin power connectors, had tried with only 8 pin too. No effect. I have asked for help in many different forums, and wondering if you could help me.
Setup:
i7 920 (3951 batch, old was 3851 D0) +Apogee GTX
Evga Classified E760 (S61H BIOS atm)
Corsair Dominator 1866Mhz 7-8-7-20
GTX 295 + EK Block
HAF932
Windows XP
Watercooling:
MCP655
2 x 360 rads with 6 x Noctua NF-P12 1300rpm
18/13mm hoses
Hehe so many bananas..yeah i'm pretty new to this still. This is actually my first time overclocking =P
Basically if I didn't wrongly read. it means almost every D0 can clock that frequency and timings. The rest just depends on mobo batch quality and ram batch quality? I doubt graphic cards and hard drives has anything to do with this. ^^
damn I really pray its not the board. pain in the arse to if there's anything wrong with this board in our country. Bro I've read in your kingston thread that you're gonna try corsair 6gb+kingston 6gb= 12gb. How did it go? Mine won't post when I combine them.
anyone have an issue where the board wont shut itself off, i mean the OS shuts down properly, but the board and system wont power down, i have to manually power it down, doesnt happen all the time, sometimes, running latest bios? anyone? thanks.
I had that several months ago with older BIOS revisions. I was able to fix it changing the S1/S3 settings in advanced power management menu.
I must admit, I don't remember exactly. I think the default setting (S1?) did not work and I changed it either to S3 or S1/S3 combined.
wow r3es are getting lots of rave. anyone who has a classified tested r3e vs classy yet?
btw i noticed if u pass first 10 mins of prime for ram stability test, it usually goes up to 2 hours. Is there anyway to skip the first 2 hours and get right on to the part where it usually crashes? =P
also how long is classified's warranty duration?
hmm if i was u wont make a lot of assumptions on dram testing on short period with prime
use everest and check ure mem speed
notice every time it changes
so think of ure mem is running a cycle etc
sometimes starting at certain cycle can mislead stability
always do long test
no shortcuts
only shorcuts u can do on i7 would be on starting at certain fft etc for dram
but overall for x58 smaller dram fft is more strenuous than 4096
for 775 was the opposite
the r3e can even put a atombomb as a feature
but with useless bios.. all i can do is LOL all day long
bro bro..reading back the posts, i'm trying to run 6-6-6-18 1600 instead of busting my skull on 2000 c8. Its seems that it needs much lower voltages and its much stable in the early stages of prime95 blend custom 5.4gb as opposed to 2000c8. Your kingston post got me tweaking again after seeing the low voltages needed. Currently I'm at 1.275vtt/1.57vdimm running for an hour already with auto on subtimings alli did was set 6-6-6-18/1n. On the quote u mentioned that whatever voltage stable for 2000mhz c8 = 1600c6.. do you mean vtt/vdimm ratio instead? because voltages were really different on your kingston post with 6-7-6-18 1600.
interesting safe bet thats ure 2k c8 voltage and sounds about right
cant do 1.56?? if can ure ram should be able to do 2133 8-9-8-24 at 1.66v
btw eleet reading is wrong. ure set voltage is more accurate to the voltage u need
vtt. hmm if 1.275v (75mv) for 1600 then 1.325(125mv) for 1866 and 1.45 (250mv)for 2kc8, (300mv)1.5 for 2050 ,350mv for 2100 and 375 for 2133
1.5v
Hey all, I'm running an E760 with BIOS 59. Last night I went to do a Windows install using the IDE controller, had both my HDD and optical drive on the same IDE channel. Jumpers were set correctly. I went in the BIOS, and set the SATA/PATA controller to IDE mode, as well as switching the SATA mode to IDE and Legacy for kicks and giggles. I left ACPI enabled. When I booted off my XP disk, it would load all the preliminary files and right as it started detecting the hard drive, it would BSOD with an ACPI error. So I went in the BIOS, disabled APCI, rebooted, and now it just BSOD where it did before, but without the APCI error. That was on a stripped XP install. So I try installing a regular bloated XP disk, and it gets just as far, but then it hangs at the exact same place. Anyone have any ideas? According to nLite, I didn't remove any of the ACPI drivers. Any ideas? Is it because I'm using a IDE drive and not SATA?
But you DID install the JMicron drivers?! :D
Installing on IDE mode later switching over to acpi in bios requires you to change a registry switch before changing the setting in your bios. I think installing on ACPI and later doing ide mode works without that reg hack (iirc).
Oh. Were you able to fix it now?
BTW, new BIOS for those gulftown users out there:
http://kingpincooling.com/forum/showthread.php?t=736
PM = Power Management? S1, S3 enabled and used?
Does it power up again after shutting off? Or do you have to switch it on manually then? Did you get that with the older GT bioses too? 4x, 5x versions.
http://www.evga.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=364058
Bios 64 released
BIOS 64 Updates:
* Adds 1.5x uncore support for B1 CPU
* Adds number of GPUs detected at bootup
* Adds RC/AC setting in memory timings
On the latest BIOS 64;
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...fiedStable.png
can anyone tell me what means error 89 @ Debug LED???
Can't see the Classified boot screen since I updated the BIOS.
Any idea?
lol... you should read evga's discussion threads... those bootscreen images took too much space from bios rom, so they had to go to make that space usable for fixes.