Quote:
Originally Posted by saaya
I agree totaly. If he was smart he could have addressed the issue, educated us as to the hows and why's of ES chips and looked to us for understanding and support. Not give is a sugar coated warning.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saaya
I agree totaly. If he was smart he could have addressed the issue, educated us as to the hows and why's of ES chips and looked to us for understanding and support. Not give is a sugar coated warning.
:rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by proxis
He can start a thread on the forums that was selling ES chips.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avan
Or another senario (to fill sayaa's post) is that someone from China has sold over 100 ES pieces to a guy for 20$ EACH and the guy then sold them ~500$ EACH - which apparently this senario is legit....... ;)
Quiet frankly, the whole thing has been dramatised. ( I am sure that was the intension of this thread :p:)
If intel is soo concerned about their ES chips, this would have never happened in the first place.
Come to some east asian countries and benchers there have god knows how many ES to sale / trade and openly use them in competitions.
Exactly opposite is the case here where in a country of 1.2 billion, just 4-5 samples of i7 were distributed by Intel for entire press and reviewers on rotation basis before launch of it platform. And it was much easier to actually buy so called illegal ES chip off black market than to get a chip even for review from Intel. Go figure :rolleyes:.
Dirty work begins where Intel partners / employees are directly involved. All those who have reliable source of ES chips dont even need to put it on ebay. These chips gets sold over IM/MSN/Yahoo in matter of minutes.
Also lot of flames directed towards OP are because of the choice of his words than anything else.:shakes:
Intel cant crack down at the source, they need those people for publicity.
And frankly this thread is otherwise pointless. We all know its illegal to sale test sample / ES chips. But in current situation, I dont see Intel being able to crack down the same effectively.
Didn't I just say this in post #80?:DQuote:
Originally Posted by hipro5
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...5&postcount=80
Oopsss - Sorry - I haven't noticed that....... :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Movieman
Very interesting thread I might say. Really curious about the purpose though...
Education for those that didn't know and a polite warning for those that did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Monstru
Who does not know and still receive ES chips from Intel? What category of persons receive ES's without signing NDA papers? :)
Perhaps, its time for your people at Intel, to do a better screening process of those they are giving these ES to. Maybe it would even be best to be sure they were 21 yrs old or older.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
Why whine about the problem if Intel doesn't want to stop the way they give out samples? Seems the procedure needs to be revised. However, whining about it on one of the largest OCing forums in the world, isn't going to stop it, it will just give people a laugh.
Intel should recall all the ES chips they gave in the last year and see who doesn't return it because he probably sold it and now he can't get it back.
If some party/person can't bring the CPU back, 99% they sold it, and they should be treated accordingly.
The persons selling ES chips on other sites (ocbay for instance) are probably not signed on any NDA docs and bought this cpus from somebody who did signed on NDA docs and breached the rules.
I agree with Saaya and hipro, fix the root of the issue and not the symptom !
It will be interesting to find out!Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Fox
http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ260437993383
This was not smart, I warned ...
Now, it is not up to me anymore.
Francois
you might want to get comfy your going to busy for along time
http://shop.ebay.ca/?_from=R40&_trks...All-Categories
I got a retail i7 920 I am going to put on ebay as ES i7-975. I am trying to pay for a trip to Germany and this could be just the ticket. lol
Wow I didn't know there were that many for sale on ebay. Good Hunting Dr. Who.
That guy was pretty dumb using the same ebay name as his signon name here at XS where he posts his results...:hitself:Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
Why is that ? he sold it for 605 euro's... so no biggie as I suspect it turns out to be about a zero operation, so he doesn't loose any money, plus these guys will get their hands on ES samples anyway maybe not directly via Intel but via an intermediate level... and he probably benched the crap out of it and didn't like it :p
It all starts with......INTEL. Any policy revision, procedure, handouts, freebies, you name it...IT ALL STARTS WITH INTEL!!! This is where the changes have to be made. They don't walk out the door by themselves. No disrespect to the OP but clean up your own house before worrying about the neighbours. Sorry, just had to say this.
Drwho, why don't you guys slightly change the policy and have contracts saying these chips will be recalled in 2 years after handing them out, and if after that two years and the chips are not able to be returned, then the person borrowing these chips will be charged for however much the CPU costs.
I've purchased chips on ebay before with no mention that they were an ES chip and then been sent one before... kind of fun having an E4300 with an unlocked multi, but still, shady.
Looks like the seller of that eBay item is this guy: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/member.php?u=7914
I just love it when people state the obvious..Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Robinson
I've got mixed feelings here.
I've met this guy. Good people.
Hard working OC'er with great talents.
I would hate to see Intel come down on him.
In fact I would hate it to the point where I'd never spend another dime with Intel.
That isn't the PC thing to say in this thread but thats how I feel.
About time for someone to stand up and say the truth here instead of being polite as I and others have.
This will probably hurt me personally but i'm not going to stand by quietly and watch a major corporation go after a individual and say nothing.
Francois:
Here's the facts of the world we live in.
You folks send out hundreds or thousands of ES chips yearly to companies to use to validate their products plus some to individuals for reviews and ot testing.
Nothing the matter with that at all.
It's what you have to do to stay in business .
Then lets get to the real world where most of us aren't in the 6 figure income bracket such as yourself.
We have passions for a hobby or in my case that and the desire to try and rid the world of diseases so our kids live longer and happier lives.
Someone offers me a pair of cpu's at 1/2 what they would cost retail and you think I'm going to say no?
Do I care if they say ES on them or SE? no.
They do the work I need done and thats the bottom line.
If the seller made money on what he sold me thats up to him.
What I see is that I get machines built and doing the work that never would have been built and to me that is all that matters.
Now you and I get along and I respect you position but if Intel brings down the weight of the company on boble then I'm done with Intel and will do what I can to convince others to walk away from Intel also.
Sorry, but that is exactly how I feel.
These are my personal feelings and in no way am I representing Xtremesystems with my comments.
So you think Intel cares about you and your friends???
I'm sure they will miss your few $$$ a year, I definitely see them going chapter 11 once you cripple there retail sales
No, I doubt they'd notice it at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grnfinger
That wasn't the point.
If you don't want them abused - don't give them away. People will always try to make a buck - legal or not.
I wish Intel would stop giving them out, and then we wouldn't have to worry about people trying to sell them here. :up:
BTW - Dave please don't make Intel go bankrupt. :)
Here's a scenario. I buy a cpu through a private sale. I don't know it's a sample, perhaps the seller doesn't either (I can't speculate what others do or do not know). I get it and look it over, hmmmm... INTEL CONFIDENTIAL. Who's the owner, intel? Are they going to send me a retail if I mail it in? Are they going to reimburse me? I'm figuring a big NO on both. Am I going to put in on the shelf after I'm done with it? Am I going to throw it away? Hah.... another 2 negatives. I'm gonna turn it around. Is DrWho? going to knock on my door? Are the cpu police going to hunt me down? You guessed it, no and no. My scared face is already put away Francois so please quit flexing mmk?
I think OP needs to talk with their own folks at Intel. The million dollar question is: Why does Intel not ask for those chips back? Its ridiculous on Intel's part to give away something for free and then blame people for making money off of it. They just can't throw the damn thing in the sea! Its like burning money...:D
All you need is a credit card number to get it back eventually!
they should just make a failsafe in the ES sample cpu's
they blowup after 6 month's.end of story:D no one will
buy a cpu that will blow eventually
Yeah like the mission instructions tape on "Mission Impossible" :yepp:Quote:
Originally Posted by radaja
exactly;)Quote:
Yeah like the mission instructions tape on "Mission Impossible
Is this the real reason why he's in trouble (see highlighted below): :D :D :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
Wait what if AMD is also buying these?!?!? Will you start a bidding war?Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
Looks like it might be worth it to have the Reserve Price really high! :D
lol ... no, I did not even see this ... lol ...Quote:
Originally Posted by salad
More seriously, ES are the property of Intel, and this is not the 1st time I warn him :shakes:
Sad to have to come to this! :shrug:
Francois
can you send me one? a simple e8600 would do.. i will oc it as much as i can for the lan party at intel/folsom this month.. i will even turn it in as i leave..
People selling the samples are the reason why we can not support stuff like the F1 championship of OC, it is not about money, it is about trust and respect of the rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by Movieman
1) they are selling something they don't own.
2) The person buying it does not get a real CPU ... even if he think it is a better CPU, it is not!
3) They are making money on something they did not pay for.
4) They get their friends into trouble in the company that gave them the samples ...
They do the same commerce with AMD parts.
It is ok to sell processors as long as they are not ES, what is so difficult to understand that ... It is like Nissan or Honda let you try a car ... and while you try the car, you go and sell it on ebay.
The people selling the ES hurt the OC community, the day they understand that, we will be better OFF.
So, yes, we are changing the sampling ... we now have full tracability, and it is sad, but we are going to use it.
and of course, it has to be a french guy who does this! @!#$%@!@#$% :down:
dude this is ridiculous. you're using boblemagnifique as an example of how you will try to hunt down every person that tries to sell an ES? it's been mentioned a few times already but i'll just beat the dead horse: this would not be a problem if you guys (intel) have better regulations in the first place.
We have regulation in place, the sad part is that because of few people, we are going to have to apply them.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteFireDragon
the greed of few will create problem for the rest of the sample users.
Just take our place, what would you feel if somebody start selling your own stuff ... Nothing ridiculous.
to me the question, as asked before, is still:
why not ask back for the chip?
why not set a time frame for use in the first place.
if i receive something that i have not paid for, yes it does not necessarily make me the owner but if i already know that the original owner has no interest in getting it back doesn't that make it somewhat my property?
instead of hunting down chips on ebay, ocbay, etc; just ask back for the chips from the people you gave them to, then you know exactly who has honored your agreement and who did not.
that is, if you guys keep good record of what you lend out .. right?
i also, think that it would have impact on intel if some well known names here would decide to boycott intel because this why these chips appear here in the first place. so "this" community can spread the word. mouth to mouth advertisement .. best in the world. if this forum would rally for a boycott, most certainly intel would feel the pinch but i am not tryin to start something here, just saying .. a superstar is nothing without his fans, neither super, nor a star
The sampling program is larger than you think, we are sending samples to PC manufacturerssss and they want to keep the CPU for further validation usually.Quote:
Originally Posted by bot@xs
Most of the samples sold are not the one we distribute via press sampling, neither the rare sample given to overclockers for marketing activities. Those people respect the rules.
Calling back sample would be a very big scale operation, that would bother a lot of people. some time, randomely, we organize audit, and ask few back.
What I am trying to do here is some prevention and some information, instead of hunting directly for something I wish does not exist.
I hope that by repeating enough the fact that it is not OK to sell the samples, we will see this dissapearing.
For those that break the rules in the public place and leave enough evidence, there is nothing I can do, I warned many times, and their employers will get the nice email they deserve about the confidentiality and ownership of the product they sold.
They usually get 30 days to provide the part back to us ...
guys, i am trying to be open here, if you want a F1 ligue, you got to fix those obvious problems. I will not sponsor any even with one of the guys selling the parts online into the events, and I ll ask my buddies at AMD to follow this since it is reasonable. that sound like a good beginning :up:
Those that have sold their ES CPU will just say they tossed it after using it for the intended purpose and that was to find if there were any bugs in it. :yepp:Quote:
Originally Posted by bot@xs
The funny thing about this is there is too many people selling chips way too many how is it intels property if they never have to give it back?
What if they fried the said cpu and gave it to a friend as a cool keychain.
I have been offered ES cpus, my friend just bought a 965 ES cpu, I know of three other people that have bought ES I7's in the last 4 months.
We have know here at XtremeSystems that the es processors are the property of Intel. We (many of us) have tried to discourage sales of es chips on the forums. We even have rules in place to try and prevent this. We know Intel doesn't like people selling these chips. To me it is not honest to sell something that doesn't belong to you. People are going to do it anyway behind our backs. We do our best, but sometimes that's not good enough.
Let's keep this discussion calm and cool. No blame/name/flame throwing please. :D
To respond by the numbers;Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
1) The orginal seller sold something he didn't own.
He is the one who made money on the item and "he" is most likely an employee of one of the major motherboard companies or the like.
He is your problem not the people who see 1.2 or 6 Es chips per year.
Guys like Boblemagnifique aren't in this for money.
If I know him he probably bought that chip 3-4 weeks ago for more than he sold it for.
Tested it, had his fun and then passed it on hoping to break close to even.
Guys like that "live" for the testing part. That is their passion. It is definately not a money thing to them.
You know that when the price of cpu's has come up on this forum that I've always supported the fact that it's a free marketplace but there is the reality that to buy Intel products at retail prices is a rich mans hobby.
I recently priced out a pair of W5580's for my Gainestown system and do you know what they go for retail?
How about $3400.00 and up for a pair.
Look for yourself:
Shopping results for w5580 xeonIntel BX80602W5580:
Quad Core Xeon W5580 $1,707.49 new - ProVantage
Quad Core Xeon W5580 $1,935.50 new - nuLime
Intel Xeon W5580 3.2GHz LGA 1366 130W Quad-Core ... $1,699.99 new - Newegg.com
I don't expect you to give them away but get realistic and understand when the numbers are that high almost anyone will buy a pair of ES's when they are offerred.
To expect anything else is just not facing reality.
2) This is not always true and I expect you knew that before you typed it.
It depends on stepping .
There are ES's and then there are ES's.
Just like the retail Q6600 G0's were a major step up over the previous B3 chips the same is true with ES's.
A D0 step ES i7-975 is every bit as good as the retail and I can cite many other examples to prove my point.
3) Yes, the orginal seller did make money on something he didn't pay for but from that point on, the end users aren't making much money if any on the chips.
4) I don't know how to answer this except to say that the two chips I've received, one directly from AMD and one that I think but am not sure came to me with Intels blessing I wouldn't sell for my own reasons.
The bottom line here is that we aren't your enemy.
We are not the ones dealing in mass quantities of ES chips making hundreds of thousands in profit on them.
I'll guarantee you that I'm not.
I think there's $100.00 in my checking account right now and maybe 50% of what I've made in the last 6 months has gone to computer parts.
There's an old expression that fits well here:
'Your so busy bending over picking up pennies that you don't see the dollar bills falling out of your pocket."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Movieman
I have to agree with Dave on this. ES chips used to be far more attractive for their unlocked multipliers, but since the introduction of the Extreme Edition chips and the downward unlocking of all others, there remain, as I see it, 2 reasons why people continue to buy the ES processors.
1) They can't afford the retail version of the products. Since the processors are obtained for very little or nothing, those selling them can sell them for much less than a retail product and still make a great deal of money on them.
2) The ES chip being sold is a processor that isn't available at retail. People will buy them just because they're the only way to get the latest and greatest when there is no supply in the channel (ie the i7 975 is just recently available in retail...the ES chips have been around for most of the year).
Reason #1 isn't likely to be resolved anytime soon by any other manner except price reductions, but could partially be offset by asking OEMs for a deposit on ES chips that go out and sharply reducing access to them by those within Intel. I've seen some auctions on Ebay with trays of ES processors...how such a number of processors get out unnoticed is really very odd. I once saw in an auction, pictures of a CASE of trays loaded with ES chips. I have a hard time believing that a theft of this magnitude occured without someone at Intel being involved at some point. Also, asking an OEM for the qualification samples back from a previous generation before new ones are issued will ensure that they are better controlled at the OEM level.
Reason #2 is easier to solve. Some sort of early access program could be (and should be) instituted that enthusiasts (not just elite overclockers or those with internal connections to Intel) can apply to become a part of. This would grant them access to early ES chips and allow them to use and test them. Full documentation and investigation of the applicant and full strict NDAs would apply. Also, at any time, Intel can request a validation program be run to prove that the CPU is still in possession of the applicant. A deposit should also be charged. Upon retail release, the CPU can be exchanged for a proper retail version, with Intel keeping the deposit and the exchanged ES CPU, the ES can be kept by the tester (in exchange for Intel keeping the deposit) or the CPU can be returned to Intel with the deposit refunded. Any of above options could all be used depending on Intel's desires.
Such a program would be beneficial in allowing certain enthusiasts access to the latest and greatest and would expose the early silicon to a variety of systems, configurations and peripherals and be beneficial in the identifcation of errata. A testing regimen can even be specified by Intel for the CPU (running of certain specified test programs and benchmarks) to expose errata. The downside is that there would be a modest expenditure of resources to implement such a program, but considering there is a system in place already to issue ES chips to a variety of testers, it should be very modest. The benefits, however, would be numerous for both enthusiasts and Intel.
Like Dave said, we aren't your enemy. I think the vast majority of us enthusiasts would be honored and excited to be part of testing CPUs and hardware that will become a retail product one day. I know I would.;)
How does one go about testing an ES chip? Hell, I don't care if you installed a GPS on it to make sure it doesn't leave the house, I just wanna see how far it can go. Sounds fun!
There's an awesome thread on a dual hexcore Istanbul system being built at http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=226283 :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Movieman
good opinions in this thread - makes me think why the heck do I have to pay 500% markup to get an unlocked multiplier? hasn't intel ever considered that if they made the extreme edition even remotely affordable that more people would buy them and they might just might actually make more money.....
What I don't understand is why is it so important that people don't sell them? Like what is Intel worried is going to happen, say a competitor gets a hold of one, what is the worse that would happen? I can understand not wanting them sold on before they are released to the public, but after that what is the problem. I'm probably forgetting something, also I had a quick look through and didn't see an answer to this question.
True, very good point :up: AMD doesn't do that, as fas as I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by SNiiPE_DoGG
heres an option - just label all CPUs retail coming from intel, screw the ES thing, and just give them away. Like intel doesnt make enough money already to give away some chips that cost them <$200... :rofl:
HELOOOOO!!...... PLEASE WAKE UP!..... :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
1. I have PAID 1000 Euros for EACH ES......
They are MINE.......
I WORKED HARD to make money to PAY for them...
INTEL DIDN'T SEND THEM TO ME!........
I PAID them and they are MINE......I can do whatever I like with them....
I PAID THEM.......PERIOD...
WAKE UP once again...... :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
I have bought mine from your "trusty press sampling" channel who ACTUALY (by your words) RESPECT THE RULES....... :p:
1000 Euros EACH.......Come and get them.....!...
P.S. 1. a.IF Intel didn't wanted to happen things like that, they should take back the samples they have sent.....
b. When YOU INTEL guys had "WAR" with the AMD guys back in the age of Northwood, you provided ESs to EVERYONE out there, NO?.... ;)
P.S. 2. Sorry I didn't woke up good today and reading things like these are just breaking my tense nerves today...
This is wrong, contact Intel Fr and asked if they sent me a 975XE ES please . You will have the answer ... thank you to inform you before :down:Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
you tell me that Intel had sold the 975XE these partners ... He should have followed these ES so ... strange no ?
I pay as many cpus (ES/OEM/BOX) to find the Golden Chip but it's very hard , i don't have a contacts for the GREAT ES as some people here.
You want me to take as an example to scare others, I am ok (my First pc ES sell in ebay ) ah ah ah I have really bad luck then francois has seen my item and not a others sellers ES ...
It would be nice also to prohibit the Sellers Pro China that sell 100's of CPUS ES Mobile on EBAY, strangely they are not afraid of you and continue within the law (It's not hypocritical that ?) No ...
These people win enormous sums of money, I lose money in finding the best chips, we don't play in the same category :down:
Now I await the result, I am guilty, I accept it but I would not be condemned alone :up:
Ps : Please Francois stop now to speak of scores ES CPUs , same with my Ex WR 3dmark 2005 with a 940 B0 ES, you have to do enjoy your jokes and criticize AMD by the U.S.A press or by Facebook. And now it's the scandal for me for 1pc sell , let me laugh ...
@ boblemagnifique: I'm with you M8...... ;)
and IF Intel "throughs out" some clowns to pick up their unpickable shi(f)t, I PERSONALLY will LEAVE INTEL, join AMD with ALL my soul and give them HELL as for the benches.......AND THEN let Francois or every Francois out there telling fairy tales..... :mad:
THEY (Intel) OWE to me......I DON'T OWE to THEM........
I was the one (if not the only one) who was giving a REAL WAR back to the age of the AMD 64s to prove that Intel STILL exists....
....and NOW I read these shi(f)ts from them?..... :mad:
it's True Georges , most buying ES guys , Intel gives priority in the ES to the press and not to the Overclockers ...Quote:
Originally Posted by hipro5
We must pay our money we earned working. But NO We resells because donated by Intel CPUS just to make money like the big retailers on eBay or other sites ... The Overclocking isn't a passion but a Business for a living ... it's ridiculous :clap:
It's easy to attack the final users then the first to traffic at the exit of the production chain and partners ..
From the low-end bystander's perspective...
Intel: turn around now with these ridiculous doubling+ prices for 10% higher clock speeds. I am running an E2140 because your profit margin has to be through the roof. Right now, to quite a few builders, Intel is sucking big time. I was more impressed with building a Phenom II X4 940 BE system for my friend then I have ever been building an Intel system. He spent not $900 and got an unlocked chip, more RAM then he will need for years, and a box of other nice, high-end parts. Couldn't do that with Club Blue. I disagree with how Intel's splitting up their sockets (remember your competitor's mistake a few generations ago? Socket 754 versus 939?) and the general pricing on chips. Truth be told, I am absolutely appalled about the price for a pair of Xeon X5550s. $1000+ for a dual-socket Core i7 920? That chip is sold for $280 for single-socket, so what in the hell justifies a 3.64x increase in price? Same goes for i7 920 versus i7 940... that was the biggest rip-off I've seen in years, and I'm sure that your sales numbers say something similar. A 10% increase in clock speed for a 100% increase in price is hardly a reason to "step-up" to a faster chip. Not with the 940, not with a 15% increase for 100% more for the 950. It's simply not worthwhile. For the numbers these chips reach versus the actual manufacturing price, I am sorely disappointed that (from a business standpoint) Intel isn't milking 45nm for all it's worth. After hearing plenty here and seen plenty in the real world, I have to say that Intel's made me into an AMD man, just like nVidia's laughable practices have made me into an ATI (now AMD) man. It's been 8 months since Core i7 launched and tray prices haven't dropped all that much.
I bet a million bucks you have top paid employers at Intel who have built there friends/family PC's using ES chips........ Is this not stealing??????
If your not liking it then stop making ES's all together and watch your retail sales drop. simple...
Intel sees the OC community as an enemy because people are out buying and reselling these ES chips. I don't understand why they are coming down on the end user and not the retail channel person who leaked these to begin with. They are the ones making all the money off of something they don't own.
If the OC user paid for his ES, of course he is going to try and sell it to recoup some costs when he is done. Maybe there should be an intel grace period where intel would replace an ES with a retail. That would get the end user a retail chip and it would get intel the ES so they can determine where it was leaked from. The leaks need to be stopped at the source, not with the end users. Coming down on the end user is just bad press and will paint intel as evil, especially as seen by the comments already in this thread.
WOW francois WTF
:shakes:
wow - seems all this thread has done is to create anti-Intel sentiment among some of your top Intel benchers and crunchers , and why are you so vocal and up in arms about ESs when AMD is not making waves on this?
Well, as much as I would hate to see them punish boblemagnifique, you have to understand that there always have been rules. It was known for ages that selling ES is against the law. It is Intel's property and always will be.
They seem to have watched the ES situation for quite some time, but now must've decided that it would be time to act. To change things, you have to give all the people doing wrong and example what happens if they get caught. It honestly seems quite dumb by bob to sell the CPU on eBay NOW and especially this type of CPU (they normally are only interested in ES sales concerning current CPU models). It was practically like asking for punishment. You wouldn't go into a police station and sniff a line of cocaine off one of the desks there, would you (exaggeration of course; just for illustration; exceptions prove the rule :D)?
If what Francois said is true (the part about bob having been warned before), then I really can't understand why he still did it. I mean I understand that there are far more serious problems with ES CPUs out there, than him selling 2 or 3. As already mentioned, guys selling them in quantities of hundreds. But the the point is: Don't play with matches if you don't want to get burnt!
I just hope that bob's punishment will be relative to the deed and not solely to make an example out of his case to scare away others of doing the same.
And to hipro5 and all the others who, I think, misunderstood Francois's intention in one way or the other:
IMHO Intel has to adress the situation in some way, if they really want to start working on the problem. So Francois tried to tell the people here what the risks are and that Intel actually is looking into the problem. What they do besides this forum post is not upon us to judge. And as I understand, they are not really after the people who BUY the ES CPUs at high prices (hipro5 and all the others), BUT instead after the poeple who get the CPUs nearly for free and then SELL them with a hefty profit. Anyway, how should Intel know and care about what you paid for a CPU that is not meant to be sold at all. If they see you sell a CPU for 1000$, they know you sold something that does indeed belong to them for 1000$ and was never meant to be sold anyway. You can't really argue that you bought it for the same price.
The conclusion to Francois's posts could be something like that:
Don't ever SELL a current Intel Engineering Sample CPU! And if you really think that you absolutely have to BUY one, then keep in mind that it will never be your property and Intel can ask for its return any day.
I do agree with what was mentioned many times before, though: It is up to Intel to change the policy of handling ES CPUs, internally, if they are actually trying to adress the problem properly. Just getting one or two guys punished for selling a single CPU on eBay won't change a thing. Get the big guys and not the small fish, if you want to be taken seriously in the long run.
IMHO ES chips shouldn't be sold AT ALL in any case... But since people say that they are paying to get ES chips from Intel to test them, then I don't see issues reselling them. On the other hand, if you guys only paid for shipment and not CPUs themselves...
Very well thought out post :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by celemine1Gig
@ celemine1Gig: One question.
I paid 1000 Euros for an ES CPU....
Is it MINE or Intel's OR we are some kind of "partners" into this?
When Intel come one day and ASK this cpu from me, they HAVE to PAY me 1000 Euros to take it back... :mad:
There were days back in the past that I was collecting money to buy an ES Northwood and I REALLY didn't have money to buy food to eat or cigarettes to smoke only to buy this cpu......
.....and NOW they come and tell us this bulls?..... :mad:
As I said above, Intel send your representatives to get MY ES CPUs and I assure you that they will leave my place with an "AMD stump" on their head...
COME AND GET THEM... :mad:
I sold a lot of ESsssssssssss Intel cpussssssssss. Intel sued me, please.:ROTF:
Im sure that Intel have an idea where most of the distributed ES are coming from.
You could go after individuals with 1-2-5 CPUs and make no friends
OR
keep an eye on the people closest to Intel who you think are taking the mick.
One or two ES recalls from your immediate system builders/ whoever just to check quantity should put the frighteners on everyone else.
Make sure the fine is >> the benefit of selling the ES in the first place and the problem should dwindle fairly quickly.
You can make examples of people but do it at the top please, not the bottom.
When fighting a war- Monitor and contain the deployment whilst completely cutting off their supply.
:ROTF: :clap: :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreYang
Well, I totally understand your situation. I think Intel has absolutely no problem with you having the chips in your posession (not that I would be affiliated with Intel in any way; just a poor student trying not to learn for his exams ;)).Quote:
Originally Posted by hipro5
I even think that it's quite the contrary. They sure would love to see you have even more ES CPUs if only enough people at Intel knew about what you (already) achieve(d) with them. Sadly enough you might be a legend here and you'll have my respect until the day I die, but I highly doubt that any high ranked Intel employee knows what to make of the name "hipro5".
The real problem is in the middle men who sell you what they don't own! They ask big money from you, although they are not allowed to and even cause you the problems, described in this whole thread. You shouldn't even be mad at Intel, but rather at the one who sold you an ES for such a hefty price. The message that Francois wanted to give might have come out wrong in some way. I really don't think that he wanted to accuse the top overclockers for having ES chips or even for buying them.
Isn't what you have done the equivalent of paying for stolen goods and now thinking you don't have to return those goods to the rightful owner?Quote:
Originally Posted by hipro5
No....It's the equivalent for paying for "given" (or paid) goods and now thinking I don't have to return those goods to the rightful owner BECAUSE NOW I'm that OWNER...... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad Boga
I haven't been paying close attention to this thread as I am not passionately interested in the issues being discussed, but seeing how a number of people have reacted has piqued my curiosity a bit, so can you correct me if my assumptions below are wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by hipro5
1. Intel doesn't allow for ES chips to be sold by anyone.
2. People who may not have received the ES chip from Intel are now trying to sell them, thinking that because Intel didn't give them the chips directly(they acquired it from a third party), that they should be able to sell these chips without "interference" from Intel.
:hm:
Unforunately according to the law, you are only in posession of the CPUs, but you will never be able to actually own them, unless you buy Intel as a Company. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by hipro5
Your thinking is wrong here, although I can understand why you think the way you do. Intel shoud've intervened in this whole shady Engineering Sample business a long time ago, in order to not even let it come this far. They didn't do, so now they have to try correcting the previous error. The problem now is to handle the situation carefully enough, because as this thread has shown they might get very bad publicity if they punish the wrong guys for the right reasons. Good compromise would be the word of the hour, I think.
A good plan concerning this matter could save them a lot of trouble and still get the problem corrected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Movieman
:up::up::up:TRUE:up::up::up: :clap:
Quote:
Originally Posted by hipro5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Movieman
OMG, i just came back to this thread, what a change, now they are targting people we know. aGAIN intel created a monster and have to step on us to fizx it.... wtf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat GriZ
Quote:
Originally Posted by celemine1Gig
Personnaly , i have meet francois in CES , i speak a few time here or facebook , he know my nickname and he see then overclocking a CPU ES for broke many WR.
he waited until the end of my sales report me (I know very well that he had already seen my ad before), he contacted me a few hours after it ends for me he had denounced ...
Ok it's my fault , i accept but I don't like how he ... I am ashamed to be the same nationality as him, sincerely ...
Now If Intel contact me for the CPU, I want that is the same for ALL the sellers on eBay and especially Pro Sellers who sell 100's of cpus and who earn their living on the ES and especially those who sell directly from Intel or Partners. => This the REAL PROBLEM
Both sides are right. There needs to be a way to address this problem however, so why not STOP SELLING/BUYING ES chips starting now, since either activity makes you nothing but guilty in the eyes of the law? There's nothing wrong with DrWho? posting here, because once people stop buying, there'll be no problem. It's like the cocaine problem in the US. Who to blame: the peddlers or the addicts? Addiction to hardware/benching and the fame that comes with it, with the encouragement of the manufacturers of course, is the problem and in that sense, both sides are guilty.
The bottom line, unfortunately, is this.
http://www.intel.com/support/process.../CS-030121.htmQuote:
Engineering sample processors (also known as ES processors) are not intended to be offered for sale or resale to the general public. ES processors are considered "Intel Confidential" processors and are only to be used within Intel or by AUTHORIZED personnel outside of Intel for purposes of testing, evaluating, and/or pre-configuring systems. Every ES processor that is "Loaned" outside of Intel is done so under strict contractual agreements or Non-Disclosure Agreements (NDA) to assure the protection of Intel's intellectual property and the unit during the time it is "Loaned" out.
Engineering sample processors from Intel are property of Intel Corporation.
Person "A" loans their car to person "B". After person "B" no longer has a use for the car he sells it to person "C". Person "A" finds out that person "C" has his car and demands it back. There is only one possible outcome to this. The car goes back to its rightful owner, person "B" is in legal trouble and person "C" no longer has the car or his money.
Sorry guys, but i don't see how anyone can reach a conclusion that the ES situation is any different the the above car example.
Dr Who?,
If as you say Intel have now introduced "tracability" to future ES yet to be released the why not draw a line under this given that it should no longer be an issue for future chips?
Clearly Intel's system for distribution and tagging has been flawed up to this point and as such the company can now move on without further alienating consumers/benchers/reviewers and put this whole sorry episode to bed.
If the systems are now in place to control the issue as legally defined then why not simply have an amnesty for those caught for single/handful of infractions up to this point?
I'm not convinced that XS members are the place to start when looking for targets to make examples of, afterall they are not in this hobby for the money but are enthusiats promoting the upper limits of what is achievable with Intel's products.
I understand it is not legal to sell what does not belong to you and i am not defending the sale of intels property. But this could be managed better.
if they started in their own house, rather then then the enduser 4 steps from the person who gt the chips from INTEL then he would have a little more credibility. But no, they burn a few random souls a the stake and then do business as usual with their broken macine(intel)
During the CES , i have talk with francois , he said :Quote:
Originally Posted by Praz
"Intel would sell the 975XE these partners because it couldn't be loans/given because the price of product is expensive" (its the truth ? I don't know, I listen to Mr Intel ...) If this is true is different compared to with the bottom line you have write. but I think we will never ....
We all understand your situation, I dare to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by boblemagnifique
What it boils down in your case seems to be a combination of "wrong place", "wrong time" and especially "wrong action". As you already realized Intel can't say that they wouldn't accept any ES sales and then say "oh, wait, that's boblemagnifique, a well known overclocker. We can't punish him while doing so with any other person we catch selling an ES from now on."
Let's just hope that Intel won't be too harsh on you.
And just try to put yourself in Francois's shoes for a second: Maybe he was told to take care of the ES problem. And then one of the first people being found guilty selling one of the very ES CPUs is a famous OCer from his own home country. Although normally nobody would care this combination does make him look a bit bad, too. Not obviously, but rather subliminally. And the fact that he knows you might have made it even worse for him personally.
hehehe good one daveQuote:
Originally Posted by Movieman
What I posted above does not necessarily mean that I completely agree with how this situation is being handled. If I was faced with something similar with one of my businesses I would most likely go after the end of the supply and demand chain also. But it would be a secondary action. My primary focus would be the suppliers of the chips.
As Movieman has stated I believe in the beginning this thread was a friendly heads up to people at XS as to what Intel's planned course of action was going to be. Look at what the common response was. People posting that they would continue to buy and sell the processors and if that wasn't acceptable don't release them.
The request to not use the processors in competition was met with the same response. HWBot went as far as to publicly state the following.
http://www.hwbot.org/forum/showpost....&postcount=126Quote:
Originally Posted by Massman
None of us can expect there to be no consequences if someone is backed into a corner and continually slapped in the face. From the beginning it seems as this was handled improperly by all parties.
why are you dragging your dirty laundry across different forums :rolleyes:
I love it..... Go [H] :yepp:Quote:
Originally Posted by ...
As long as no manufacturer is interested enough to actually sit down with Hwbot and work out a decent way to promote hardware on the one hand and provide a challenging benchmarking platform on the other hand, there's absolutely NO need for us to follow their wishes. So no, there's no need for Hwbot to prohibit ES hardware because Intel prefers not to see these in competition.
I think this is a relevent to the conversation and love itl....
But i agree that ES should not be used in the ranking, it makes the top spots out of the reach of regular guys, it should be retail only. but I still like what H said for the ES issue when Intel doesn't fix it from where it starts , in their house
boblemagnifique is being used as a patsy here... and its VERY bad taste to broadcast this guys name and try to make Him the whipping boy.
the original intention of this thread was not in my opinion as some have said a 'friendly warning' but I believe more likely a 'look at me' I can put the :banana::banana::banana::banana:s up you all.
Well im very happy to see that the guys here with some integrity have stood up to it.
This is intels problem [if it is a problem at all?] more like look at the size of my intel penis.
Dont blame the oc community, Intel have used the overclocking community for years and now you come up with this s***?
beyond belief really.:shakes:
Okay this won't win me any friends but I've bought a few ES chips over the years. Nothing cutting edge but still. And it's funny (peculiar) to read posts from guys I know have sold ES chips about how it's not that big a deal or how the real bad guys are Intel partners that sold them in the first place I get mixed feelings. I mean we might be a small percentage of illegal ES sales but we are highly visible and vocal. What we do can set the tone for others. And if you re-read the OP all Francios P said was PLEASE do not sell ES chips. I mean he's just stating the obvious...something anyone who has ever sold an ES already knows.
Bottom line is always about the money. I bought ES because they were a lot cheaper than retail. But that does not make it right. I break the law several times a day anyway so whatever...and I'll never be an Intel partner so another whatever...and finally I don't list ES chips I have bought for resale in public...so I think I am pretty much safe from the CPU police.
There are so many things happening that are "not right" everyday I have to put them through the sieve and grade them from inconsequential to life threatening ya know? ES CPUs being sold to overclockers from overclockers barely shows up on the radar for me...
How about the rest of you guys?
That said, hear what Dr Who is saying/asking and keep yourselves clear of the fall out mkay? He is restating the obvious. That means as a whole we must be getting sloppy (listing on eBay fer instance sheesh) for Intel to even notice our tiny part of the ES "scandals" occurring every day right? So TIGHTEN the :banana::banana::banana::banana: UP :D
As far as I am concerned, if Intel really wanted their ES chips back, they should have been more careful who they loaned them to.
The law be damned; it will matter when it's enforceable. As for morals and/or ethics...well, I'm not one to let legislature or legal precident dictate that. If I obtain something, it's mine until I voluntarily part with it, or someone pries it from my cold, dead, hands.
boblemagnifique , look at the date of creation of this thread and who created it ... I saw an explosion of 975 ES sells on OCbay and ebay. Nicely, I tried to warn everybody here, without finger pointing, and I explained that the ES are property of Intel, and you can not sell them.
I posted this thread the 06-27-2009, 03:28 PM , the sale of the ES was closed Jul-04-09 ... I gave everybody time to understand and cancel their "bad idea" ... I saw many cancelling it.
What else can I do? calling every body one per one ... I can 't do this, I would get into trouble too, I am not the Sheriff!!! I would like people to get their senses and try understanding, I don't want to punish, I want to educate.
I don't want to blame either, the only thing I can do is to make sure that those people don't get sponsored from my side, and can't participate to competitions ...
Aurelien is a nice guy, I hope he is trying to get the ES back and cancel the all sell.
There is always ways to fix and arrange problems.
come on guys, what I am asking is not that difficult, don t sell ES and everybody will be happy!
Francois
PS: You wanted Intel to be open, I am here for that, don't shoot at me when I tell you that something is off limit .. selling intel property is OFF limits.
One last word from me on this and I'm out. Francios is on our side guys. He's the enthusiast at Intel that brought us Skulltrail (still the love of my life and my daily driver) and there is no need to argue or throw barbs his way...he's one of US dammit!
I generally try to be polite when I post here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
I generally try to "see the other side" when I post here.
Your orginal post I replied to politely.
Your post nameing Boble brought out in me an instant anger and an image of a multi billion dollar corporation bringing down the wrath of God on a guy that I've met and seemed to be a decent guy and that is why you got that reply from me.
I still stand by the statement that we are not your enemy and "we" in no way at all effect intels profit structure except in a positive way.
I want you to think on this for a moment.
I'm a relatively poor guy compared to most but there is in excess of $40,000.00 in computer hardware in my house.
Not a business mind you, but my home.
At rough estimate I have spent over $10,000.00 on Intel cpu's over the last 3 years.
Those are retail cpu's not ES's that I've purchased.
I don't hurt you. On the contrary I help with the bottom line at intel far above what the average PC enthusiast does.
Every guy on this forum is like me to one degreee or another.
We far outspend any average number per person you could mention.
Even George(Hipro5) with his yelling here I can speak for.
I have bought retail Intel cpu's for him as it was easier to get them from the USA and then send to Greece.
I'm going to say it again, We are not your enemy.
Another guy brought up a point that I would like an answer for even though I think I know the answer.
Why is a X5550 gainestown three times the price of a i7-920 when they are the same damned cpu?
It's one line with both cpu's having dual QPI and the ones sold as i7-920'ss having the second QPI electronically disabled. If the same, why three times the price?
This is another problem you folks at intel have created.
Your pricing yourselves out of the market for any one that wants a high end dual socket system.
You wonder why people purchase ES chips.
The answer is above.
What normal person can afford to drop $2000-$3000 every year to keep up with the system changes.
I for damned sure can't anymore.
All I ever wanted was to try and help the next generation to lead healthier lives and the pursuit of that using Intel parts has pretty much bankrupted me.
Oh boy.
This has all the ingredients of a locked thread...and then some...
But I'll leave it alone for a bit.
If you cant afford the build then why build it....dont build a rig which you know the cost b4 hand and then blame Intel then justify buying ES chips to help you sleep at night.
I really dont see why this thread has gone on as long as it has..its very simple BIG company gives away stuff asks in return DO NOT PROFIT from it...now ppl are putting up high end chips on ebay, the man ask'd very nicely please please do not continue this trend or actions will have to be taken...basically ppl spit in his face so whats is he supposed to do???
Personally I dont think he has been rude or crossed any line most replys including yours have been rude..if this was Charles asking ppl not to sell ES chips you would have banned most of the ppl for replying the way they did..
Dave Intel is a big corporation, they could care less about peoples lifes. They are there for one thing and one thing only Money... :down:Quote:
Originally Posted by Movieman
Not sure how many times we have to tell you the same, the real issue is not the final overclocker that bought 1 ES and now trie to sell it for 0 profit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
For once do the rigth thing and ask all the big guy you give 100 of ES CPUs to top and punish them, they signed the contract with you. I guess you can't do that right? how could you punish Asus, Foxconn, Dell, HP, etc...
This is so lame, as many other have said if this continues i'll chango to AMD for ever and will not recommend one more Intel CPU (believe me i do you guys a great favor on recomending Intel CPUs, as i already told we have 3.000.000 unique visitors and 130.000 registered forum members).
Why then not just buy all ES chips available on open market and trace them down to actual NDA signers. I seriously doubt anyone here has any NDA with Intel thus Intel has no legal authority to prosecute them. It's like Dave wrote before about collecting pennies off the street while dollar bills falling out your pockets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
I just fail to see what's your problem with folks selling one/two chips they originally bought from someone and so on up to the actual disti/ISP.
The problem is not Bob ... The problem is the guy who sold the sample to Bob to beging with ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Movieman
I understand the money problem, trust me on this! in the mean time, what else can I do?
1 ) Let people forwarding to others the samples and selling them to each other?
2) I can avoid the discussion and let the lawyers in the back ground doing their job (never end well)
3) Or I can come here and open a discussion, complain when something is too obviously wrong ... and take mild action to try to stop it.
I like 3 Better ...
overall, I try to be open ...don't take it as a stick ... very likely, Bob will be fine. we have full tracability, we can figure out who sold the ES at the beginning.
In the case of Bob, I appreciate the Dude, he is a nice Dude ...
I don t know how to formulate it ... just stay away from ES commerce, it is wrong!
ES commerce make some very unhonnest Dudes somewhere very rich, and you guys are the one paying for this ...
Without the fear of seeing the samples dissapear and being sold, I could probably sample more the OC community ...
Let's close the topic, I think all was said.
Francois
Since 3 years ago about when the release of C2D (E6600) the number of ES on EBAY had exploded. Intel has asked a lot of forums and ebay to ban the sale (this is true, no?)Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
These are what people have been arrested ? I don't think and today yet , it's exactly the same problem ....
I was aware for a long time, no need to have seen this topic here.
I agree and I am ok but what I don't like to receive an email from you after my sale and I say: "I have denounced, I warned", I think that your status: Intel Senior Performance Analyst (it's correct yet ?) doesn't required making a denunciation ??? ... but you find just what you do , ok for you
No problem but for me , i stop to overclocking with Intel plateform ,I will not continue to Broke WR with my money and your partners will do our image of overclocker for :
I will not pay my cpus and you make them after when you unable to keep track of your Products , it's a Great joke :clap:
I prefer to stop definitively , so goodbye INTEL.
we do find the NDA breakers, and original sample sellers ... and the end of the story is usually very sad ... never good, trust me, I saw some pretty stupid cases. I wish we can avoid this!Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooper
nothing more to add.
then again end-users here seem offended to the point of totally ignoring Intel's products. Not sure what was the point of the thread in the first place. I'm very positive majority here knows what ES is and what are the risks involved in buying one (no warranty for end-user comes to mind first).Quote:
Originally Posted by Drwho?
If you want to avoid this go complain to Asus, Gigabyte, HP, Dell etc.