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the problem is I would'nt want to spend much on shipment form Australia to here. Honeslty we have toyotas too...it is really my last resort. If I wanted to design my killer rad, what specifications would you suggest? I thought: 20/25 elements (tubing) encased in a frame of 70x40cm. I am unsure as to the number of fins though. Also I would have the builder streamline it so that there are only the ncessary plug holes for my tubing and nothing else (should look very neat too). what do you think?
I went the car radiator route let me say this.
Its going to be harder to do maintenance.
Harder to bleed when changing out the water.
I needed someone to hold the radiator while i was trying to bleed it.
The pump wont turn on unless you have a relay or a power strip with a switch.
It will make your computer bulker.
The pump is pretty loud (I have a Iwaki 30 RZ though.)
Going with a PA120.3 and a few fans actually made the system quieter as a whole.
I can actually sleep in the same room when its on, but before the pump kept me awake (I had Petra's gel Stuff to mute the vibration but it was still loud).
And I can have just one fan running when I am sleeping keeps the temps fine for BitTorrent.
Building a relay switch is not a problem. The fact that it is bulky neither since the radiator will be neatly postioned under the desk. Regarding bleeding I still have to try.
I am still looking into building a potentiometre. However it would seem that it is slightly more difficult than predicted.
Flow is more pump related. What will you be using for a pump?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexontherocks
If you do not leave enough space between the radiator and the wall you will not have enough airflow to achieve "convection". If you place the bottom of the radiator against the wall and the top 7-8 inches away you will probably have better efficiency for convection than if it were standing straight up.
I will be using a 1/4 hp pump with 10m head pressure and 140l/m of flow (that is 8400 litres per hour. This is enough I think. I believe your suggestion of tilting the radiator is sound. I will definetely look into that. I am still waiting for the pump to be here.
Anyway I am also waiting for a cost projection for building my custom radiator. it will be 70x40cm made of copper. 8mm barbs. Streamlined so there won't be any odd looking bits and pieces.
If the builder is too expensive then I will buy a koyo radiator and have it shipped.
d'tek fuzion is my chosen waterblock.
I have decided to buy the radiator from a radiator seller. No luck having it made. Well at least I tried.
I should have the radiator in a couple of weeks. I have received the pump and it is MASSIVE yet silent. Iwaki the pinnacle of performance? I disagree.....check it out:
http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/3166/img1832sp1.jpg
http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/3...f59471b177.jpg
that mouse is not small I must add..
I have tested it and it is around 40/45db. I can also use a potentiometre and still have performance to spare..
:up:
Moderate to heavily diluted antifreeze will work. Dilute with pure distilled water... I'm using 80 to 1 ratio distilled/water. Some people like 90 to 1 but for mixed metals I'd recommend a little lower. With the TEC I'm dissipating about ~415 watts of heat total. Raises my room temp from 25C to 30C in about 10 minutes... The more antifreeze the better corrosion protection but your temps will suffer a bit since water is able to transfer more heat than the glycol. This is why you need to find a nice rad/heatercore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexontherocks
PS hopefully that pump doesn't leak! Either way it needs a washing/buffing... eeek
the pump is perfectly watertight (tested). It does need a little cleaning but it is just dust, no rust anywhere important. 8400l/h, 10m head....can't wait to have it running
How much would you say an aluminium radiator looses against a copper one performance wise?
P.s. you are absolutely certain that you don't have any corrosio going on in your system?
How much would you say I would loose by using antifreeze in terms of performance?
/points finger at the "i dont believe i did that" thread...
ha ha ha...
massive pump... good luck!
hahah...thanks for the advice but I calculated around 15 PSi of pressure (I only have 10m of head) plus I will be using a car radiator which should be tougher than the average watercooling rad.
That looks to be a fine pump and relatively quite at 40 dba. Nice find.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexontherocks
That's hard to say when it comes down to the materials copper should be about twice as good than alu. I think it matters more on the design of the rad TBH. Check this out:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexontherocks
http://www.hardcoreware.net/reviews/.../img/Graph.gif
Yes, however my system is mostly copper and brass. I say mostly because I don't know if any alu is inside the heatercore. It's a 1980 Bonneville HC and looks very similar to the DD double 120. Corrosion my biggest concern in the CPU block and it's in perfect condition (have the acetal top EK which makes checking very easy).Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexontherocks
Not sure. I've read the posts here but nothing AFAIK is conclusive. For me, I started with 50/50 ratio and after adding more distilled for approx 80 to 1 ratio, my temps lowered about 3 degrees on average. At the same time I remounted my block so it could just be a better mount. Hard to say what your results will be but you could start at 50/50 and work/add more distilled until you get the results you're happy with. :up: Either way I believe it will not be a 10C difference, probably more like 1 to 5C.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexontherocks
great...that is some nice information. I was thinking of going big (the larger the surface area the more performance margin I have)
how would you judge using something like this:
http://cgi.ebay.it/Radiatore-motore-...QQcmdZViewItem
it should cool an audi tt.
:up:
It looks like a big project :p: and maybe worth it depending on your goals. BrokenWall on the 2nd post linked a similar project. I think it's really easy to get "too much" very quickly with projects like these. In the link that BrokenWall posted the OP there had 25 delta fans! Too much for my taste but seems like the OP is happy with that setup.
So it looks like you'll have an external mount maybe on the side of the case. There's a couple potential problems because A.) you won't be able to lay the case on it's side very easily, B.) moving the rig will be a little difficult, and C) similar performance could be had by using a different configuration of parts. You might do higher performance fans (I hear yate loon a lot) and a smaller rad. Perhaps a rad half the size of the one you listed here would be perfect. Personally I like the Scythe slipstream fans but I think Vapor disagrees about the performance.
Don't get me wrong I love DIY projects like this. I just imagine myself with this setup and I like to keep parts inside the case. If you NEED this much cooling then I say do it already!!! :up: It should work nicely and have huge capacity for some menacing equipment. :yepp: Think though if you might not need this much capacity then maybe a PA 120.3 or even a nice heatercore would provide excellent results. Fittings are easier on heatercores I think. :cool:
EDIT: the fittings on that rad look manageable but I can't tell what size they are. Maybe 1/2" if lucky?
I understand your considerations however I was planning on using TEC modules like this: http://cgi.ebay.it/CELLA-DI-PELTIER-...2em118Q2el1247
600w is a lot.....and apart from anything it is really just an experiment. Something I enjoy doing. Especially given the origin of my components. The total cost will be a fraction of what a good liquid cooling kit is worth and probably more performing. The pump alone was purchased for under 15 euros (thank god for ebay)
Regarding the radiator I have a very good idea. If you look at this picture of my pc you will see I have a large empty space under my desk. A large flat radiator will fit perfectly with tubes going to my pc on the right (and pump).
http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/325371_casa1.jpg
edit: They are probably bigger. Infact the pump fittings are almost 4cm (3.7) di diameter
yes they are your pump however isnt. Not too sure what that model is:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexontherocks
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...a/IMG_0658.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...a/IMG_0661.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...a/IMG_0663.jpg
:shrug:
You got the wrong iwaki pump if you wanted pinicle of h2o performance.
I disagree.. the iwaki is just an overpriced 24v pump
my pump: 10m head (same as the iwaki) but 8400 l/h flow!!! It is even
My pump is not an iwaki. It is a univerbar designed to be used in industrial applications multiple dishwashers for large professional kitchens. I have been told 1 pump of these can power up to 2 units. Designed to work at intermittent intervals.
http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/1917/pumptm0.jpg
http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/1...d6bc1cc92a.jpg
prove me wrong...these are my pump's specs
P.s. just in case you want to point out the wattage I will say that there is definetely a separation between the impeller housing and the main motor housing. Water is not used as a coolant thus the heat immision should be very mild.
From what I've read the Iwaki has relativily little heatdump. But then again heatdump may not be an issue if you have an overkill radiator.
After realizing you're using such a monster TEC with this I think the rad although big should work good. 600w plus whatever your system is adding will be quite a lot of heat! With any luck you'll achieve good flow and excellent cooling. I think in the winter the rad will keep your legs warm. :D
Have you posted in the TEC section yet to see what they think? I've never heard of using such a huge TEC with anything like this. That doesn't mean it wont work though. People have posted up that you ideally should use multiple lower wattage TECs across a large mount. Two 245w TECs like mine would give you 225w cooling @ 12vdc... Understand that the wattage numbers don't add up linearly. Think 2 or 3 TECs in a sandwich using some custom cold and hot plate. Hard work yes but anything that's worth doing always is. I'm sure you know that the TEC is going to draw a lot of power per month! I'm not one to discourage so I say onward with the build!
EDIT: Ok I see you already may be planning to use multiple ~240w TECs. Looking forward to this build.
True. And apart from the heatdupm itself I must question the design of those pumps which use water as coolant directly or indirectly for its operation. The iwaki RD30 was created not to be used in nighly stressful conditions. Iwaki has built many pumps which deal with toxic liquids, acids, coolants, viscous fluids etc. All of these pumps are mules when it comes to durability and power. Granted they will keep you awake at night, add a "0" to your electricity bill but they will outperform the smaller models. We want flow and moderate head pressure. more than 10m will most likely kill any radiator and burst the thinnest pipes (not sure about the latter but pretty sure about the former). Flow is always a good thing even though you need probably (I am not an expert) higher rpms to achieve it thus more noise. On the other hand if you add a potentiometre you will most likely have a larger margin to act upon the numer of rpms performance wise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zehnsucht
I would like to add just one small thing: this is an obvious consideration but I feel the need to post it. Xtremesystems as any other forum or community which deals with the limits of hardware and the means to push beyond those limits is a place where people gather and share common experiences and find solutions. I have received valuable advice from all of you. I feel however that often it is a question of money and not talent in pursuing those limits. I know I will not make myself clear thus stirring up some criticism. Leaving hardware aside (where luck and production weeks play a bigger role) cooling techniques is where people have come up with truly excellent ideas and by improving on those ideas have achieved exceptional results. Look at the guys from the phase change section: few units are prebuilt and most are the result of trial and error. Some of those guys have built triple cascade systems they can be proud of. In chilled liquid cooling may use old conditioners, in the TEC section people have used TECS in vary ingenious ways. I guess what I am trying to say is that we shouldn't (and please forgive me using the plural- but I feel like one of you now :) ) simply follow the latest trends. The iwaki is a good pump? Sure! but let us look for another solution, experiment with junk scraps, rethink waterblocks and coolants.
I hope I did not offend anyone....just my two cents. :)
ok next problem....
I have talked to the radiator seller and managed to get him to send the radiator right awy with an express courier so it should be here tomorrow.
it is the audi tt one.
the only problem is with fittings:
1) my pump has 2.58 ID inlet and outlet (roughly an inch)
2) the radiator probably has very similar inlets and outles.
3) my ek supreme does not and even using 1/2" barbs I still have a problem of adapting tubing to radiator and pump. My options are:
a) find adaptors for the pump and the radiator (1" to 1/2") and then use 1/2" tubing all the way
b) keep pump and radiator inlets and outlets as they are, find correct tubing and then, in proximity to the EK supreme, add adaptors along the line.
What do you guys think?
P.s. I will try to find some paste to keep all connections watertight. I have also changed the startup capacitor on the pump so not to risk malfunctions. I will also oil every moving part not in contact with water. This ought to prolongue the pump's life right?
I will share with you the sweetness of my latest purchase: it's massive! For now I have positioned it under the table to give an idea of size and final positioning. It will however be 20cm up from the pavement, and at least 6cm from the back woodedn panel.
I am sorry if the build is long but I have to study a lot for uni so my time is limited. have patience and bare with me.....the monster is about to awaken:D
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/9093/82853119pz7.jpg
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/9...e7a7c284d8.jpg
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/948/20833693sc3.jpg
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/9...78871b5080.jpg
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/8666/12114964sa1.jpg
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/8...b840f45386.jpg
everything looks very nice.....yet I still have a hard time finding reducers and I still don't know "where" to reduce the piping along the line...:confused:
:help:
edit: I will be using 6 of these fans: http://www.antec.com/ec/productDetails.php?ProdID=75200 There is enough space to fit them behind the radiator. I will also have to figure out out to mount them together. Anyway even at the lowest setting they should provide enough cooling.
That is a good looking radiator! Looks almost as if it's been made for PC, seeing the black and all.
That looks like a volkswagon radiator.
Audi is Volkswagen :up: The radiator is compatible with several models. golf, skoda octavia and audi TT!
Anyway as I have been saying it will look very good. Now my only and final dilemma is how to proceed with fittings. If I get that sorted there is no stopping me to complete the project.
Alex, it's pretty hard to break a radiator/waterblock with water pressure. I can safely run a 23m/90lpm 1/2hp pump into a car radiator and a Storm waterblock with no ill effects.
My concern is not with the pressure and the radiator. I simply cannot find the way to connect a 1" tube and a 1/2" tube if I choose to keep 1" tubing everywhere except for the very last cm leading into into the case and the waterblock. Not even sure if this is even the correct way to proceed.
GrimReaperGuy...with such a strong pump what temps do you get?
Don't worry about the tubing, really. I'd just have 1/2" going from your waterblock outlet to your reservoir (if you need/want one), and 1/2" from the radiator outlet to your waterblock inlet, it'll save you a lot of time and grief compared to fiddling around with series of adaptors.
The only thing you need to worry about in regards to the water pressure is make sure you use worm clamps. An un-clamped line will eventually worm its way free, and then you'll have a neat little water fountain at your pump outlet.
Regular Tygon will likely collapse on you at the pump inlet; you might need to find some reinforced tubing.
I see about ~5-10 degrees above ambient on my E6600, depending on conditions; idle to load is ~4-5 degrees. Those figures are with the pump at 1/4hp; temperatures are some ~5 degrees higher at 1/2hp.
the problem is that my audi tt radiator has inlets and outlets which are wider than 1" even though 1" will fit. I see no other way around it.
anyway...how do you vary pump power? I tried with a dimmer but it is useless that is why I am buildinf a soundproof container for the pump.
Well, if your pump and the radiator need pipes of different size, then yes, I suppose you'll have to break out the adapters.
I control pump power with a potentiometer in the form of an old household heater connected in parallel with the pump, through a re-wired power strip. It's all very cheap and extremely ghetto; with any luck I'll get to rebuild the damned thing in a couple of months.
http://www.smilieshq.com/smilies/sign0101.gif
Ok, I'm getting in on this deal:
I just bought this:
80-85 SKYLARK, CITATION w/ HDC NEW RADIATOR--3 rows, copper/brass--$88.50 shipped
Lots of Copper/Brass radiators at Great prices--some damaged, some not--check the description:
ltiparts
And 2 of these:
PROCOMP 14 INCH ELECTRIC COOLING FAN 14" CURVED BLADE
They have 10, 12, 14 and 16" fans--cheapest prices I could find shipped--$55.80 shipped for 2. 2150cfm @ 12v and 12 amps. I'll worry about the amps, draw, undervolting later.....:up:
I've been looking for a project. I was ready to do the copper pipe in the crawlspace and tossing around different things. I bought a mag drive 9.5 (950gph, 14' head, $60 shipped) and I have a 55gal. blue barrel. I started the plumbing yesterday. Just picked up another MB and so now I'll have 3 PCs to crunch and I'll continue my everyday stuff on one of those as I do now.
Plumbing is going to the outside. From the PCs to the blue barrel to the car rad and then back again to the manifold. The car rad is either going into 1 of 2 crawlspaces or an out-building that's shaded all day (probably the out-building.) I have a Swifty 120.2 and 2 '77 Bonneville heater cores to incorporate--if needed in any way. However, I will just do a manifold that feeds to and from each PC. Each PC will receive it own feed, so life should be good!
Yes, I'm excited.
Let's...http://www.smilieshq.com/smilies/sign0041.gif
http://www.smilieshq.com/smilies/fighting0001.gifhttp://www.smilieshq.com/smilies/fighting0002.gifhttp://www.smilieshq.com/smilies/fighting0001.gif
</Hijack>
Sweet setup, Alex. Looking forward to watching this thread......:yepp:
great find naja......I want to share with you my latest creation.
At night I can just hear someone asking: "What are you building stark?" :D
1" , metal spiral, high pressure, industrial tubing..
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/1130/img1840rd5.jpg
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/1...b04140d362.jpg
smaller tubing is 12mmx17mm...fittings are steel indstrial fittings made watertight by grease and teflon
whatdoyouthink? :D will it survive the pressure?
one last addition....just to give you an idea of how thick that tubing is (yet it bends allright)
http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/1...9876ay7.th.jpg
You might want to push that 1" further down on the adaptor. That tubing looks great though! :up:
Hi Alex,
The bulk of my setup will be 1" pvc pipe, but I plan on using this stuff--initially:
General Purpose Air and Water Hose
I already have 1/4", 1/2" and 1" collecting dust, so I am going to incorporate the 1" into the system. It can handle the pressure, its aquarium safe (so it shouldn't affect the PC components) and is great for low temps. My only question is: What about high temps!.....??? We'll see. I'll probably contact USPlastics and find out the specs on it.
Anyway, I may or may not be able to use that tubing to connect to the inlet (1-5/16") on the rad. If not, no big deal--I'll just find some 1-1/4" tubing and do the "heat treatment" if necessary. My bigger problem is the rad outlet (1-9/16"), but I'll find the tubing that I need--one way or the other. It'll happen! :up:
Nice adapter! Don't think I am going to need it, but what/where did you find it?
Anyway, the rad is shipping today. I'm trying to get a purchase list of plumbing parts together and intend to head to the store today or tomorrow. I'll let you know what I come up with.....:yepp:
Have you connected to your rad yet, or are you still working that out....? :shrug:
Naja002. Your project sounds very interesting. The only reason why I wouldn't have chosen the radiator you picked is connecting tubing. My radiator has slighty larger than 1" inlet and outlet. 1" tubing will fit if heat treated.
You are bound tu use a reducer somwhere along the line. How are you going to connect 1" tubing to your waterblocks?
I used a 3/4 male to femal connector screwed to a 3/4x1/2 nipple fitting. Teflon and grease and it will hold. Hope so really...
Hi Alex,
I'll start a thread after I get some pix of everything, etc. I hit Lowes yesterday and they had everything that I needed. Forgot to get some gate valves (2), but I'll pick them up this wkend. :up:
I picked up 1' of 1-1/2"ID Braided tubing. I'll cut the length to fit, but the heat treatment will get it over the 1-9/16" outlet. I also picked up 1' of 1-1/4"ID tubing that will fit the 1-5/16" inlet. Those tubes both connect to the appropiate barbed adapters (1-1/2", 1-1/4") which thread (both MPT) into 1" pvc pipe (both FPT). The pvc is reduced to 1" at the adapters. Amazingly, Lowes had everything that I needed. :woot:
My only real question at this point is my pump--Mag Drive 9.5. I'm not sure if its strong enough, but the calculator that I used says it will be--except I cannot factor in the rad itself. I bought that particular rad because its copper/brass, triple core (3 rows) and cheap. <---pretty much in that order. It should offer some decent flow for a radiator.
This is being setup to cool up to 6 PCs. The 1" pvc pipe will run from the rad, pump, 55gal reservoir in the out-building (only a few feet away) into this room (via the floor) to a pvc manifold that will distribute the water to and from each PC. Water takes the path of least resistance, so the gate valves are going to be incorporated in order to tweak (restrict) the flow from 1 PC or another so that all PCs get adequate flow. Make sense?
The manifold is 1" pvc pipe and the tubing to and from each PC will be 1/2"ID tubing.
The rad should be here Tues (5/27). Between now and then--I have some work to do and some pix to take.......:up:
I'll start a thread when I get some pix taken, etc. Kinda feel like I'm hijacking your thread here. Please let me know if you are feeling the same way at all.
I'm glad you got connected to the rad. That and the pump are probably the hardest part. That is one sexy rad you got there. Looks like it was made for the indoors......:yepp:
Now I just have to figure out how I'm going to buy ~60gal of distilled water without raising a bunch of eyebrows......:rofl:
Don't worry! I am actually very happy someone is gaining some benefit from my experience. I would be actually very pleased if we could keep a sort of "shared thread". Any relevant post from the guys here could help us all. :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by Naja002
I actually noticed that your pump is somewhat small considering amount of liquid and pressure loss due to several "characteristics" (length of tubing, ID of the tubing) of your system.
From what I noticed your radiator is pretty standard and should not be excessively restrictive. Also, if you consider that most pc radiators actually implement flat tubing as opposed to the car radiator type "round" tubing then leaving size aside, it should work well in terms of flow. I am sure your calculations are correct however I personally always try to err on the side of caution. It would be a pity if you got this amazing system working to find out, after some time, that you might want/need a bigger pump. Ebay might help you here... :)
keep us posted. As I said I am studying had thus have very limited time. My project will take time to set up and be properly tuned. You are welcome to "hijack" my thread.
Ok, taking a break, so here's an update on my end. Plumbing is completed in and out of the blue barrel. Its also completed through the floors of each building and connected. The pump arrived in the mail today (:woot:), so I'm going to get the plumbing done on that--today! :up: The only things I'm missing is the rad and the gate valves, so I should be able to complete +90% of the main plumbing. Before I am finished with the main plumbing, I need to figure out how I am going to test/flush/maintain this system. I'll get it sorted out though....no sweat. :up:
Cool. :up: I'll start my own thread and link from here to there and there to here. I think that the more threads available on this car rad subject--the easier it will be for other interested folks to find the info! :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexontherocks
Flow loss isn't as great as people generally think. Some of the "Reefers" (saltwater aquarium folks aka "reef" keepers) are just as hardcore about what they do as many of the folks here at XS. <--have no doubt about that! :yepp: I just used this Head Loss Calculator to get a rough idea. Minus the radiator, but with extra elbows, etc thrown into the equation. Here's an example:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexontherocks
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...nShot012-1.jpg
I am expecting to use ~35' of 1" pipe and about 5' of 1" tubing. So, the 40' is fair, except its not factoring in the 4x 1" barbs (1" barb x MPT)--they will definitely offer some restriction. I entered 25 90-elbows, but only expect to use 13. I entered 10' of vertical head, but it will not be over 6.5' max. And just as important--I entered it all on 3/4" pipe--I'm using 1". I still come up with 190gph flow and 1.21psi (rated is 6.5psi). I think it'll work, but there's only one way to find out! :yepp: I picked it up for $60 shipped, so I should be able to sell it for that, if need be.....:up:
I keep debating on whether to use 1/2" or 3/8" tubing from the manifold to the PCs. I still need to buy the tubing, so I can go either route. I'll definitely be going the 1/8" wall route (1/2"ID x 3/4" OD or 3/8"ID x 5/8"OD). I've already got the barbs for the 1/2" and wondering if the 3/8" would create too much restriction. Either way, I think the 1" manifold will feed things well enough.....:up: I have some tubing and barbs of both, so I guess I'll just have to check things out before I decide.
In reference to the head loss calculator: I doubt its 100% spot-on 100% of the time. If any of the fluid dynamics engineers would like to check out its accuracy--I've little doubt that the XS community would be appreciative! But from what I understand--its a very good tool for the planning stage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexontherocks
Again, I think the pump is going to work, but I was over-joyed to find a copper triple core raditor! :shocked: The 3 rows not only offer good cooling--but better flow also. I'll have to take a look when it gets here, but I think it'll work work whether the tubing is round or flat. We'll see....:up:
Thanx for Your Support. Wkends are my busy time, so things are working out pretty good actually. I have fairly convenient access to 3 walmarts and Lowes, so I guess I'll hit the WMs this wkend and start picking up 2-3 cases of gal. jugs of distilled water from each!Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexontherocks
:up:
super soaker?Quote:
Originally Posted by KaptCrunch
Or water fight. :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaptCrunch
Hi Kapt Crunch,
I understand what You are saying, but those examples usually assume a better water supply--meaning "household". Household (and industrial/commercial) water supplies normally have much higher pressure (normally ~40psi). The problem here is that my psi source is a small pump (rated 6.5psi). I'm not sure how well my little pump would hold up against the garden hose test....:shrug:
But I do understand Your point--and Thank You for tossing it in here! :up: I am no fluid dynamics engineer, so my skills/knowledge/understanding are limited. Just using the surface area of a circle--the 1" pipe should be able to pump more than either 3x the 1/2" or 3/8". But 4x the 1/2" works out just right......1" circle=0.785.....4x 1/2" circles=0.785
Reasonable entries into the head loss calculator offer a 2.44psi and flow of 464gph/60min=7.73gpm/3PCs= 2.57gpm per PC.
IF I could maintain that 2.44psi then I realize that the water would just travel faster through the 3/8" tubing. So, my real question would be--under these circumstances--should I expect a reduction in psi/gpm by going with the 3/8" tubing v the 1/2"? Honestly, I really don't know. I would appreciate feedback from anyone that understands this particular point....:up:
I did seal the 55gal. blue barrel, so in theory this is a closed loop. Also, the pump is drawing water--out--of the barrel....not pushing it into the barrel. So, pressure in the barrel should be negative, not positive. Further helping the seal. :up:
Any Thoughts.....?
unfortunately that sort of solution is necessary. I have adapted a 1" tubing to a 1/2" (12x17) in order to feed my waterblock. Am I in for a surprise as soon as I get my wb hooked up to the tubing?Quote:
Originally Posted by KaptCrunch
Unfortunately there is very little one can do if there is a car radiator envolved. I believe very few actually have 1/2" inlets and outlets. Most have 1" or larger OD so unless I can find a wb supporting 1" tubing then I see no other solution than to reduce tubing somewhere along the line. 3/4 x 3/8 is actually the type of reducer I built (the only feasible solution). However the tubing will be 1"x1/2". TEFLON tape and hoseclamps + silicon are necessary.
The bigger tubing is good, although the roughness added by the metal spring will add a little friction. I'd probably just run the larger tubing until you made it to the exterior of your computer case, then reduce it down to something that's convenient to run in your computer.
Friction losses are given probably more attention than they deserve in tubing and fitting (although some fittings are pretty bad), as long as you keep that stuff to a minimum it's usually insignificant.
As long as you have a strong enoug pump to overcome filling the system (for example you don't want to run a pond pump with 4 feet of head and expect to fill a system with 6' of height difference) you should be fine. Once the loop is full that static pressure that it has to overcome is removed by the water coming back down the other side.
Anyhow, my 2c.
my idea exactly. One small edit: the spring is embedded in the tubing. The plastic is smooth on the inside. Thanks for the input!Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
just one more problem....will the pump suffer from having such a variance in tubing diameter?
Houston--we have Flow!
Well, for right now we do! :ROTF:
Still waiting on the rad which will be here tomorrow. PCs are not hooked up. But the barrel, pump, and plumbing are pumping from one building to the other--all setup, filled and moving water.
I currently have the system filled with my tap water to flush it out. I put drains at the lowest point on each line (to and from) in order to be able to drain the system. The barrel is detachable. I'm still debating on whether I want to buy distilled water or a new membrane for my RODI system.
Right now, I am just going to let it run and flush itself. Debris should flush into the barrel. Tomorrow I will hook up the rad and run it. Then start putting a shroud around it. Not likely that I am going to use the car rad fans. I think 1 or 2 of the 9" floor fans will be enough to create the necessary air-flow. ~63w each on high, ~40w on low. 120v and can easily be connected to a timer.
Its probably going to be a week or 2 before I can get the PCs incorporated into the system. I ordered some stuff today, and I still need to order the tubing. I'm building an open bench-top multi-PC case. Hopefully that will be done by the time the other stuff gets here.
The hard part is pretty much done.
Thank You, Martin, for the input. :up: Pretty much clarifies what I was thinking. A closed loop is different then just trying to pump straight vertical head. I seem to have plenty of pressure at the moment without the rad. The gate valves to the PCs are closed and the manifold by-pass (1") is wide open. Yet I still have some tygon tubing doing a bit of bouncing (1/2" barb return to 1/2" barb inflow--closed gate valve).
I still need to run full-time power to the building for the pump and fan(s). I picked up some of the stuff the other day, but that is kinda/sorta turning into a project of it own......:( I'll git-r-done.......:up:
I'm not seeing any issues coming up. But we'll see.....
Great! Make sure you flush everything with pure water at the end. Milan (where I live) has such a mineral rich tap water that I have already seen some sign of crystal formation on the inside of the pump head.
Anyway I have built my relay switch. Not much of an update but it looks very good. Encased in a black plastic box it al so has two leds: blu for correct functioning and red if by any chance any of the connections (12v or pump feeding line) fail.
One question though: What if I hook up the relay to one of my fan conectors of my motherboard? The switch absorbs 80 milli amps and requires 12v to activate. This means that if I were to hook it up to the mobo I would be able to switch the pump off through speedfan by adjusting the speed of "fan 3" (were the realy will be hooked at) to "0" correct?
Sorry to double post but I have a small update on my setup and a question:
I have received my ek supreme plexy top. Looks sweet! I have not purchased the barbs and here is what I came up with:
http://img31.picoodle.com/img/img31/...sm_739349a.jpg
Industrial barbs with teflon and oring. You can see the teflon through the plexy.
I have a question though. I tried hooking everything up and there is flow but it is very modest! if I hold up (in the bathtub) the tube coming out from the ek supreme I get a steady flow of approximetaly 40cm before the water falls back in the tub. Is this normal? Is this block that restrictive? Without the block the water coming from the pump outlet would move (even if submerged) the whole volume of water in the tub. Something more like a jacuzzi rather than a normal pump. Ideas?
P.s. comments on barbs are welcome!
should have plenty of hose clamping area to work with :D
True! I was particularly concerned with pressure near motherboard and charged components so I chose barbs with ample possibility of Xtreme clamping.Quote:
Originally Posted by iboomalot
Not sure how to interpret the substancial flow loss. Is such a drastic reduction normal when using a ek supreme?
spunds about right if I use martin's spreadsheet and choose an iwaki as a refernce (strongest pump an still not as strong as mine)
awaiting your opinions...:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexontherocks
Hi Alex,Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexontherocks
1 Question that I have had is whether or not your pump is too powerful...!?!? As in: Waaaay too powerful. I'm wondering also if the acrylic top/o-ring is going to hold over the long haul.
10m (~33Ft) of Head and 8400LPH (~2220GPH) is more than overkill. Are you trying to send all of that through just the 1 block?
Kind of hard to explain, but your pump probably isn't able to function under those circumstances--its just too powerful. I'd say you are wasting a lot of electricity and going to burn out the pump. I can't seem to get the words together to try to explain what I know, but I've had this instinctive feeling for a while now. Maybe someone else will come along and offer an explanation, or maybe the words will come to me later.Quote:
if I hold up (in the bathtub) the tube coming out from the ek supreme I get a steady flow of approximetaly 40cm before the water falls back in the tub. Is this normal? Is this block that restrictive?
Just imagine hooking up that block directly to the pump: 4" of tubing then the adapter down to 1ft of 1/2ID, attached to the block......What would you expect? I would expect disaster in 1 form or another. :yepp: Tubing popping off, water squirting out from the acrylic top/o-ring......Something bad! 10m head and +2000gph is more than a lot! Much more...... :up: That takes quite a bit of psi for a pump. I don't think that these blocks are really made for that kind of pressure. Even if the setup held--initially--I would lay awake at night over the long term worrying about it. :yepp:
Again, hard to explain, but the 1/2"ID tubing and the block may be so restrictive--in comparison to the pumps ability--that the pump may not even really be able to get a decent start (so-to-speak) before its almost completely restricted. If the plumbing doesn't give....sooner or later: the pump will.... Hope that makes sense! :D
I have an update on my setup. I'll post it after while.....:up:
I would imagine there is truth in what you say but let me point out (I have very little expertise in pump and/or plumbing so everything will sound very empirical) that an iwaki rd30 can generate at 24v the same pressure (almost if not slightly more than 15 psi) I am quite certain my pump does not exceed this value.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naja002
When I tried everything in the tub I set the pump as it will function in real life: 1" suction tube (1 metre) from the tub - pump - 40cm of 1" tube - reducer and 1 metre of 1/2 tubing - ek supreme.
I also tried hooking the ek supreme right after the outlet using a single piece of 30 cm 1/2" tubing. The result is identical. What I can say is that I may have mixed up outlet and inlet on the ek supreme! :rofl:
Anyhow my pump is a simple centrifugal circulation pump and as far as idraulics are concerned it should perform more or less like a full powered iwaki.
Granted the power requirements are enormous and let me tell you that the efficieny of the pump, judging by the heat output, is quite low but nontheless I really can't understand why this kind of pump would cause havock in any well built system. Grimreaperguy stated he uses a 30m (height) 90lpm pump and has no problem what so ever. If anything he has a pressure load of just about 3 times what I would ever achieve....
I will use silicon for every barb/reducer/poin of contact and use insulating waterproof balck tape on top of that. Industrial (long) barbs will let me use multiple clamps on the ek supreme.
We will see anyway how thing turn out...
only problem I see is a point of diminshing returns
as flow increases so does pressure
main problem I can see is heat from a pump that size offsetting what little extra flow you will get.
once you hit 3gal/min your gain in heat transfer at 6gal/min will not be much better and the extra heat generated by the pump will be more than the gain in flow.
I know the RAD should be able to sluff off the heat but you are still adding alot of heat to the overall system with a pump that large.
if you own the pump then use it but Iam going to use a MD-20 rlt myself with my auto Rad setup
This is also very true but let me point out that my pump is divided into 2 pieces. The electric engine (coils) is separated from the circulation area (the head of the pump) as can be seen in this picture: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&postcount=117Quote:
Originally Posted by iboomalot
heatdump can still occur but it would have to occur across the limited diametre of the impeller shaft.
thats a tim taylor pump for sure
Hi Alex,
Honestly, I think we're both getting into a realm that we don't know enough about to discuss/debate/decide what's going on. All I really know is from my past experiences dealing with pumps. Hopefully, someone else will come along and help explain what's going on.....:up:
A quick update on my setup:
The car rad arrived yesterday and I have been working my butt off to get stuff done. Basically, everything is done (no PCs involved yet)--with 3 minor issues:
1) I need a frickin' radiator cap! :rofl: What pisses me off is that I went to walmart and the hardware store today--forgot all about stopping at the auto parts store....errrrrr :shakes:
:rofl:
(Autozone has one in stock--$4.99 :up:)
2) The caps for the blue barrel are leaking again where I drilled and siliconed. Not a big deal when the system is running, but during a long power outage--there will be some leakage (~3gals). I'll have to pick up some more caps at work and come up with a new plan for sealing them. :up:
3) Have to figure out a way to plug the radiator "overflow" vent. Not a big issue, but can't run the system until its done.
With 1 & 3 completed--I'll be able to run the system, until I can get #2 done. Either way, right now, I'm tired. :yepp: I've taken lot's of pix, so I'll see about putting a new thread together before long. :up:
Best I can tell ATM is that I will still have plenty of flow. Just can't run things long enough right now to really check it out.
I have a Q9450 coming tomorrow, the PC tubing and some other stuff. 2x UPS and 1X DHL. I may run out and get the rad cap
I am not sure what you mean with tim taylor...Quote:
Originally Posted by iboomalot
You are probably right....I hope someone will come by and shed some light on the subject. This may prove useful for anyone envolved in projects featuring a powerful pump.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naja002
forgot you aren't in the USA
Tim "the toolman" Taylor is a person played on a CitCom here in USA. He takes ordinary tools or products and makes them more manly by beefing them up
example would be fitting a Jet engine to a lawn mover to soup it up.
I was saying that you have a "manly" pump
might look these over
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV2MehkFcTw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY5WxDqggbs
Houston.....the rad is installed and we have flow! :yepp:
Went and got the Radiator cap. I've had an on-going problem getting the pump primed (may fix the situation later), so I added a PVC "access" Tee.
There's definitely flow. The 1/2" tubing (attached to the manifold)that's closed off on one end is still bouncing. Life is good. Waiting on UPS and DHL now.
Not sure how much more I'll get done today. Work week starting in the early AM. Expecting to be "distracted" after UPS and DHL get here. :yepp: Still need to get some other non-pc stuff done too. :yepp:
Also, not sure what I was thinking: I don't expect any "Over-heating" with this setup, so the rad cap blocks the over-flow port----DUH! :slap: ---Sometimes it takes me a minute to catch up! :ROTF:
:rofl: You just made my day! I just feel like the toolman and many of you here sound like "Al". I can just image the toolman working on my pump and mocking all conventional users.Quote:
Originally Posted by iboomalot
I can just hope to have better luck myself with my "beefing" up project. By it would seem that my pump has trouble performing to specs with an ek supreme... I'll figure it out sooner or later. :)
to naja002: happy to hear you have the rad hooked up. As for the cap don't worry: before you can even see any trace of vapor coming from your rad your hardware wil have already gone to the magical place where all hardware goes after their useful life. A place, I might add, where Ati leads and Nvidia can't get even a single card out on time... a place where phenoms can bully intel qx quads in dark alleys and can still manage to run superpi under 4 secs 1m. A paradise for sure... :D
just joking...
Here Ya Go:
Yes, Another Car Radiator Thread....Major 56K Warning!
:up:
Have you considered using the mag9 for general water circulation, and just plumbing in a D5 or DDC inline, say inside the pc pulling from the manifold. They would be dumping into the res after that so it shouldnt mess with overall system pressure in theory as well.
In essence, making your large loop into a sort of res all on its own thats your computers take from and dump to as needed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthBeavis
My watercooling is completely enclosed inside of my MM UFO, so my cats dont have access to it and the only time my cats are in my room is if Im in there with them. They have nasty habits of chewing cords...
Either way I still have no fear of a leak. Im using 7/16 over 1/2 barbs with hose clamps on every barb. Been doing it this way for a few years now and no problems.
So are you trying to say Im stupid for running the something in my system that can potentially be harmless to not only myself, but my pets? I guess I had better get rid of all my asprin, cleaning supplys that are kept under the kitchen sink in full access of my pets as well as get rid of my beer in the fridge. Im taking the necessary precautions with my system and am fully willing to accept any consequences if they happen. My animals have a better chance chewing thru a the bottle of pinesol under my sink while Im gone at work than they do drinking the prestone in my loop :rolleyes:
Any updates on this, Alex? Just wondering how you are coming along with it....?
Fortunately my exams finished today so I should be able to get the project going. I am a little afraid that my pump is not suited for prolongued use but I guess we will find out soon enough :)
Sounds good. Hoping you did well on your exams. I would tend to agree on the pump, but if you need to sell it: Keep in mind that the Reefers will snap something like that up! :up:
A bit late, I know, but.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmer411
That's basically how it works now, minus the added pump(s) (D5/DDC). The Mag 9 currently provides plenty of flow for the 2 PCs that are hooked up to the setup. Whether or not it will handle 3.....I won't know that until after I hook the 3rd one up. But I've been busy spending money on other stuff, so its going to be a couple...3 months until I'm ready to build another PC.
If the flow is not sufficient after I add a 3rd PC....then I will either add another Mag 9, or replace the one I have with a Mag 12 or 18, etc. I'll just have to look into it further at that time. I like the idea of 2 pumps inline, but I may just go with a bigger pump. Mag Drives are very reliable pumps....:up:
just wanted to say that I completed my project.....
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=202589
opinions are very welcome!