AMD Cayman info (or rumor)

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Originally Posted by Sam_oslo

No need to get offensive. In that way the truth gets berried under childish fight. I take it as an offense to be compared to Charlie.

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Your post history here recently doesn't help your cause

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I don't know why they have delayed 6870 & 50, rumors says the shortage DrMOS is to blame. I don't know, but they have delayed 6990 to next year too.

These 2 delays may indicate trouble in AMD camp, but it may be just for fun too, who knows?

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Let's listen to logic

Hemlock and R700 were both released a little over 2 months after Cypress and RV770, respectively.

So if Cayman was due Q4 2010, and we have November and December left... then logically, Antilles is likely due some time in Q1 2011 - meaning anywhere from January 1st to March 31st.

If they had delayed it to Q2 2011, we'd be talking - but otherwise, a roadmap placing Antilles in Q4 2010 when Cayman wasn't due til the latter half was a pipe dream at best and is a very minor detail when you consider those leaked roadmaps were written possibly 2 months ago... well 'cept to those who have seen their beloved Nvidia punished last year I guess :rofl:

And since Cayman is due Q4 2010 still, and since no specific date was given initially (other than the assumed Nov 22), AMD is still in the right quarter for release - whether this was intentional or accidental or otherwise remains to be seen, but a "oh no, AMD is doomed" is the hugest joke I've read in recent memory.

After all, AMD is actually publicly promising a date - that means they are WAY confident to announce a date a month out that they're going to release a card, because the backlash if they don't deliver a good one on that day will be way worse than staying silent

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Originally Posted by Mechanical Man

Sam Oslo, you are like broken record. Repeating same over and over again.

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He just asked me "And what 2 delays?" I had to repeat myself to answer him.

This happens often actually, some people repeat the same question becouse they want to deny the reality, in this case, to deny the fact that AMD had 2 delays. Just watch, somebody else will ask the same question again. Rather in a more funny and offensive mode.

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Originally Posted by Sam_oslo

He just asked me "And what 2 delays?" I had to repeat myself to answer him.

This happens often actually, some people repeat the same question becouse they want to deny the reality, in this case, to deny the fact that AMD had 2 delays. Just watch, somebody else will ask the same question again. Rather in a more funny and offensive mode.

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You're always the victim aren't you? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Sam_oslo

He just asked me "And what 2 delays?" I had to repeat myself to answer him.

This happens often actually, some people repeat the same question becouse they want to deny the reality, in this case, to deny the fact that AMD had 2 delays. Just watch, somebody else will ask the same question again. Rather in a more funny and offensive mode.

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Again, I referred to what 2 delays with Cayman? Since Antilles is just 2x Cayman, one is going to be based on the first one anyways. Not to mention the fact that Antilles never had an actual date announced other than a period within 3 months. I'd lol if the card was released first week of January

But hey, keep playing the victim, and you'll understand why people see straight through your posts

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Originally Posted by Sly Fox

You're always the victim aren't you? :rolleyes:

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Some people comes with these kind of slogans, often in combination with funny comments. if I let it go, you may think you got a point with these kind of non-relevant discussion. If I answer, some may say I'm trolling the thread.

Why can't you keep the personal-stuff out of this, please attack the point, not the person. My point is, AMD had 2 delays, sorry if it sounds a repeat, but you can't deny that reality by talking about me, or attacking me.

Why does these 2 delays mean, you think? Can you please keep it to the point?

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Originally Posted by Sam_oslo

Some people comes with these kind of slogans, often in combination with funny comments. if I let it go, you may think you got a point with these kind of non-relevant discussion. If I answer, some may say I'm trolling the thread.

Why can't you keep the personal-stuff out of this, please attack the point, not the person. My point is, AMD had 2 delays, sorry if it sounds a repeat, but you can't deny that reality by talking about me, or attacking me.

Why does these 2 delays mean, you think? Can you please keep it to the point?

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I'm not trying to viciously attack you or anything. But I have noticed you tend to play the victim card a lot. I'd consider it a criticism more than attack.

If you feel that way though, I understand, no harm intended.

the worst part of the delay is that this thread will go on for another month with people arguing!


some food for thought:

if a 1120SP card can almost match a 1600SP card, than a 1920SP card can surely match a 3200SP card with some more optimizations (the so called 4D design) no?

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Originally Posted by ap4lifetn

the worst part of the delay is that this thread will go on for another month with people arguing!


some food for thought:

if a 1120SP card can almost match a 1600SP card, than a 1920SP card can surely match a 3200SP card with some more optimizations (the so called 4D design) no?

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Yeah, the fun will go on longer, LOL.
I'm not sure If I catch your point right, correct me if I'm wrong. Are implying that AMD is using these delays to go back to drowning board?

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Originally Posted by Sam_oslo

I'm not sure If I catch your point right, correct me if I'm wrong. Are implying that AMD is using these delays to go back to drowning board?

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hes saying that based on barts the advancement over cypress will be great, BEFORE they even factor in the improvements 4D shaders can bring

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Originally Posted by zerazax

After all, AMD is actually publicly promising a date - that means they are WAY confident to announce a date a month out that they're going to release a card, because the backlash if they don't deliver a good one on that day will be way worse than staying silent

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This time they indeed made it public (since it looks like these mails didn't cause NDA issues), which is the first time. Fermi was said to come in Q4 2009, likely before Cypress. It was actually out very late Q1 or early Q2 2010 o. and all we saw in Q4 2009 was some plastic cooler and a funky PCB that came from another card and was cut in 2. As long as it is done in Q4, I will be happy.

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Originally Posted by Vipeax

This time they indeed made it public (since it looks like these mails didn't cause NDA issues), which is the first time. Fermi was said to come in Q4 2009, likely before Cypress. It was actually out very late Q1 or early Q2 2010 o. and all we saw in Q4 2009 was some plastic cooler and a funky PCB that came from another card and was cut in 2. As long as it is done in Q4, I will be happy.

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Right, although in Fermi's case their November event was to unveil the white paper on Fermi's architecture, but no actual statement on launching anything was given. People just assumed that press event = imminent launch

Only Fudzilla was claiming launch dates, and they ended up being worse than Charlie

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Originally Posted by ap4lifetn

some food for thought:

if a 1120SP card can almost match a 1600SP card, than a 1920SP card can surely match a 3200SP card with some more optimizations (the so called 4D design) no?

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That plus the 2GB @6GHz memory, plus... umm, yeah i don't know much about GPU architectures :p:

You will only notice that 2GB at 2560x1200 with 8x AA or Eyefinity (sometimes 2560x1200 with 4x AA or 1920x1200 with 8x AA needs it), 1920x1200 with 4x AA or lower will likely not notice the 1GB bigger buffer.

Yeah i noticed that with the 5870 2GB, but surely the 6GHz clock speed will make a difference as well, no?

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Originally Posted by Oztopher

Yeah i noticed that with the 5870 2GB, but surely the 6GHz clock speed will make a difference as well, no?

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Yes, as in, not to bottleneck gpu itself.

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The figures we received which formed the basis of the earlier newspost were for another card in the upcoming AMD range and as such needed clarification. We cannot detail further information at this time as we are under NDA with AMD and will not break these terms. You can rest assured however that the upcoming cards from AMD are going to be absolutely stunning. Nuff’ said

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http://www.kitguru.net/components/gr...ce-indicators/

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Originally Posted by flippin_waffles

http://www.kitguru.net/components/gr...ce-indicators/

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The HD6970 is not aimed at the GTX580 price point and therefore will not perform to the same levels. We are fairly certain that it will be a stunning value for money solution however.

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Really ?

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Originally Posted by Mechanical Man

Yes, as in, not to bottleneck gpu itself.

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Ahh yes, that makes sense.

To the above, looks like cayman is going to live up to the hype :rolleyes:

edit: so does that mean it's going to more expensive than the GTX 580?

:confused::confused:

1 side (the price part) makes me think it is supposed to be between the GTX 480 & GTX 580, on the other hand the

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These performance figures were incredible

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part makes me think it's above it. If that's true and it is also aiming at an even higher price segment we would be talking about +500 euro/+600 USD and Antilles would then carry a 4-digit price?

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Originally Posted by Oztopher

Ahh yes, that makes sense.

To the above, looks like cayman is going to live up to the hype :rolleyes:

edit: so does that mean it's going to more expensive than the GTX 580?

:confused::confused:

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Nah, that is just to get hits. Kitguru is not really saying anything. You know the political speak.. Anyone reading will find their "news" to support their view. And when all is unfolded, Cayman performance being either more or less than GTX580 kitguru can say "what we said"...

Hah, well i'm just totally confused right now, contradicting info to say at least.

edit: i see what u mean now actually... i think the 2 posts from flippin_waffles and Olivion says it all.

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Originally Posted by Olivon

Really ?

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It's too early to say it for sure, but it seams to be the case.

If that news holds true, then AMD will probabley go for "stunning value for money" solution, which the resent Geforce GTX 570 comes soon seams to be comfirming the same point too. nVidia seams to be preparing to drop the GTX570 on it.

I've been speculating about these delays, as a possiable indication of performance-trouble in AMD-camp. It seams to be getting more clear now, but we have to wait and see he final reult to make sure.

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Originally Posted by Vipeax

1 side (the price part) makes me think it is supposed to be between the GTX 480 & GTX 580, on the other hand the part makes me think it's above it. If that's true and it is also aiming at an even higher price segment we would be talking about +500 euro/+600 USD and Antilles would then carry a 4-digit price?

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It's all political talk

If it ends up below, Kitguru said "see we told you"

of course, if it ends up above, Kitguru says "see we told you"

Politicians use it all the time. "I didnt mean half empty! I meant half full!"

Of course, that'd be a hell of a surprise if Cayman is actaully aimed at *above* the 580...

Speculating on what kitguru says (who's already inaccurate enough) and forming that as a basis for analysis has a latin word in logic for it somewhere

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Originally Posted by Manicdan

or both?

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Both.
They want a little more time to let AIBs get Cypress based parts out of their inventory and also to build more stock for Cayman.
They had enough for a solid hard launch but giving it a few more weeks will make sure there isn't any major gouging.

If the MSRP leaks I heard from about a month ago and still valid, we will see some price drops for certain "new" products.

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Originally Posted by Olivon

Really ?

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Seriously you believe Kitguru ?

Hmm delayed a month. We can be pretty sure its not yeild or anything major, if it were we would have heard of it before.

It is most likely delayed because of the 580...... amd didnt see that one coming. So my personal feeling is atm cayman and 580 are really close with possibly cayman being a tad slower, amd want fastest single gpu title back so maybe they will up the clocks a bit, go at the drivers hard and deliver the fastest single gpu card a month from now.

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Originally Posted by hurrdurr

I think this is the worst logic I have ever seen on this forum :D

So Nvidia PR is silent because: 6900 is going to own 580 and Nvidia doesn't want to sell more cards during the sole month in which they are in a good position? Cool

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I thought the point was Nvidia is being silent about the 69xx cards, at least that's what I got out of the discussion.

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Originally Posted by zalbard

That we have to wait for another month to pick up a decently priced card. :down:

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That's what it really means. :mad:

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Originally Posted by Sam_oslo

All these may be true, but nVidia has been confident enough to drop the GTX580 right on Cayman. This timing and confident indicates that they have planed to sabotage it, and may even had plan to beat it too.
On the other hand, these 2 delays are not indicating a confident AMD, but we have to wait and see how Cayman will stand against GTX580, if it comes out on time.

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I don't see how a delay has to mean AMD is not confident in their product. There are so many factors that can cause a delay. And think about it, what exactly can AMD do with another 2 weeks? The GPU is what it is, they can crank up the clocks somewhat, but that's about it. However Cayman turns out, it is what is is, two weeks is not going to change that. The only thing that could possibly give a large performance boost is currently drivers are broken or have some kind of show stopper problem that is hobbling performance.

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Originally Posted by Carbon_Unit

I don't see how a delay has to mean AMD is not confident in their product. There are so many factors that can cause a delay. And think about it, what exactly can AMD do with another 2 weeks? The GPU is what it is, they can crank up the clocks somewhat, but that's about it. However Cayman turns out, it is what is is, two weeks is not going to change that. The only thing that could possibly give a large performance boost is currently drivers are broken or have some kind of show stopper problem that is hobbling performance.

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Exactly right. A 2 or 3 week delay isn't going to do much in the grand scheme of things - the silicon is ready, and cards are supposed to be in production.

The most likely answers are drivers, finalizing clocks, or delayed components in the final product.

All this talk of redesigning etc. isn't just flawed logic... its serious-delusional-fanboy-level logic

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Originally Posted by Sam_oslo

It's too early to say it for sure, but it seams to be the case.

If that news holds true, then AMD will probabley go for "stunning value for money" solution, which the resent Geforce GTX 570 comes soon seams to be comfirming the same point too. nVidia seams to be preparing to drop the GTX570 on it.

I've been speculating about these delays, as a possiable indication of performance-trouble in AMD-camp. It seams to be getting more clear now, but we have to wait and see he final reult to make sure.

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This makes zero logical sense. First, you brought up the GTX 580 as a surprise in performance for AMD earlier in this thread and in other threads, and now you bring up the 570

So lets take a look at these facts:

1) Everyone knew the GTX 480 was supposed to have 512 SP's and higher clocks. These specs were leaked a year earlier, but Nvidia obviously had trouble and couldn't do it

2) AMD projects where their competitors are, so it should be no surprise that 5970 is close to the 580, as that's where they thought Nvidia's highest competitor's performance would be

3) Why would AMD release their flagship 2nd gen DX11 card (which they labeled it as such in the analyst day PR) with inferior performance to a card they thought was supposed to be released a year ago this month?

So please, keep talking about how AMD has performance troubles. They've already ruled out the issue that its yields, and from Dave Baumann's post over at Beyond3D it looks like changing clocks isn't the issue either.

And based on Occam's Razor, the most likely scenario is a simple one:

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However, the issue is not yields or such, but just too low availability of one specific driver-MOSFET from Texas Instruments, which is "so new there's no info about it available, not even from TI"
HD6800 uses the same, and apparently there just isn't enough of them at the moment

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VR-Zone

But please, go ahead and entertain us all with your grand conspiracy theories and "educated" guesses based on such credible sites like FudZilla and Kitguru, the shining examples of journalism :rofl::ROTF:

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Originally Posted by Zloyd

Hmm delayed a month. We can be pretty sure its not yeild or anything major, if it were we would have heard of it before.

It is most likely delayed because of the 580...... amd didnt see that one coming. So my personal feeling is atm cayman and 580 are really close with possibly cayman being a tad slower, amd want fastest single gpu title back so maybe they will up the clocks a bit, go at the drivers hard and deliver the fastest single gpu card a month from now.

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The flaw with that premise is... why would AMD not know where the 580's performance would be? Keep in mind that Nvidia was supposed to releasing a 512 SP higher clocked Fermi a year ago this month....

So tell me why AMD would release their 2nd-generation DX11 card with a performance target lower than where their competitor was supposed to be a year ago?

Neither company has ever shot their next generation's flagship at a target lower than where their competitor was supposed to be from the last generation. And if all the architectural changes are to be believed, Cayman isn't meant to be a simple refresh / stop-gap

I see you guys have another view, but tha's fine with me. Different views will help us all to undrestand this better. I have another view, and I hope you guys can respect it, as I respect yours.

nVidia's new move to prepare GTX570 seams to be a preperation against 6970 too. The timing suggest that strongly.

I've also been talking about these delays as a possiable indication of perforamnce-truble in AMD-camp.

I may be wrong, but I think a few facrors are indication that AMD is truble to deliver nessesory performance to beat/match GTX580. We will find out soon, no need to agree on evrything right now.

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Originally Posted by Sam_oslo

nVidia's new move to prepare GTX570 seams to be a preperation against 6970 too. The timing suggest that strongly.

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Or maybe because they have some scrap chips with little defects :shrug: I doubt ever GF110 is fully functional, even with a matured 40 nm process.

I wouldn't use the GTX570 as any indicator for HD 6970. Although I'm pretty sure NVIDIA has one of the best ideas of how HD 6970 will turn out.

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Originally Posted by FischOderAal

Or maybe because they have some scrap chips with little defects :shrug: I doubt ever GF110 is fully functional, even with a matured 40 nm process.

I wouldn't use the GTX570 as any indicator for HD 6970. Although I'm pretty sure NVIDIA has one of the best ideas of how HD 6970 will turn out.

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Scraps to fight it's own GTX580, GTX480 etc..? That wouldn't make any sense. Even for scarpe, as you put it kindly.

GTX570 is meant to fight AMD's next move, for sure. You may argue it's mean to fight 6950, but I personally think this timing is indicating that it's meant to drop on 6970. We have to wait and see.

The 570 could be intended to compete with the 6950. It largely depends on price, and of course performance of the various cards.

And when it comes to performance of the 69xx cards, there is so much conflicting info I don't know what to think.

zerazax

Its only a 2-3 week delay so I assume if they want they can increase base voltage a tad bit and increase clocks (simple bios change no?) final fine tuning to get the biggest lead possible. Considering their last chip was 5870 and now they are trying to make something thats 40% faster(to beat 580) thats a challenge(its on the same process they are trying to achieve this afterall)

So just the reasoning I can think of is amd had a lead in time over nvidia and they maybe assumed that it would be a little while yet before 580 showed up. So current cayman was aimed at 480. Perhaps they would be happy for it to play out that way for a bit, release cayman at 500$ steal 480 sales, few months later nvidia has a reply that beats it, no problem amd have sold enough cards by then milked the 500$ bracket drop price of card and beat that single chip with antilles ? Or drop pricing on antilles a bit and put preassure on fastest nvidia card(say they assumed they would have antilles out before 580 @ 650$) .

Another thing I would like to point out is knowing and having a idea about your competitors next card and being able to beat it are 2 different things. I mean amd can have all the idea about intels next gen enthusiast desktop stuff but even knowing so they wont be able to beat it in outright performance so they strategise to make the most of it in other price brackets.

My earlier post had one really big assumption, amd had no idea nvidia had 580 ready already.

Also in terms of just commonsense its like you say the delay is only 2 weeks the reason is probably really simple but we are human we like drama :P

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Originally Posted by Sam_oslo

Scraps to fight it's own GTX580, GTX480 etc..? That wouldn't make any sense. Even for scarpe, as you put it kindly.

GTX570 is meant to fight AMD's next move, for sure. You may argue it's mean to fight 6950, but I personallt think this timing is indicating that it's mean to drop on 6970. We have to waut and see.

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Sorry, but what you're writing doesn't make any sense to me. My bet is that GTX480 (GF100, that is) will be EOL soon. GF100 is too expensive and not that suitable for desktop graphics. Maybe they will still produce them in smaller quantities for Tesla, since GF110 lacks in HPC.

And what else should NVIDIA do with GF110 chips that have only 480 functionally shaders? Scrap 'em? No, like the other thread about the GTX570 suggests a card with 480 shaders and a little speedbump over GTX480 coupled with lower power consumption makes most sense to me. Maybe a full GF104 as a GTX560 and the GTX460 will be GT540 or something like that.

We have no news about any chip below GF104, do we? NVIDIA has to fill the Geforce 500 lineup with something ;)

A GTX570 makes sense even if HD 5970 fails to beat GTX580. Then the GTX570 might beat the HD 6950. So the situation would be like what we had with the RV770 and GF100 if I remember correctly (GTX480 > HD 5870 > GTX470 > HD 5850 ==> GTX580 > HD 6970 > GTX570 > HD 6950). I guess that would make NVIDIA quite happy.

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Originally Posted by Sam_oslo

I see you guys have another view, but tha's fine with me. Different views will help us all to undrestand this better. I have another view, and I hope you guys can respect it, as I respect yours.

nVidia's new move to prepare GTX570 seams to be a preperation against 6970 too. The timing suggest that strongly.

I've also been talking about these delays as a possiable indication of perforamnce-truble in AMD-camp.

I may be wrong, but I think a few facrors are indication that AMD is truble to deliver nessesory performance to beat/match GTX580. We will find out soon, no need to agree on evrything right now.

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The issue here with your premise is that there's no logical place to put Cayman.

Where would the 570 be? If rumors are correct, its a cut down 480 SP version of GF110, and is likely clocked lower than the 580, so it'll be placed ~ GTX480 performance. Makes sense, the 480 is supposed to be EOL, and you wouldn't want the 570 being too close to the 580, so it'll likely follow the 470 vs. 480.

Now, if you place the 570 there, you say its meant to counter the 6970...

But that would say the 6970 is ~ GTX 480 performance, which means its only ~16-20% faster than the 5870.

Then where does the 6950 go? The 6870 is already nipping on the tails of the 5870 (lets say 10%), so the 6950 certainly would have to be slotted higher, especially if AMD wants to make any sense of return on a cut down Cayman chip.

In that case, lets say 6950 is in a worst case scenario only 15-20% faster than the 6870 - reasonable given that Cayman is at least Cypress size.

However, that would mean the 6950 is only 5-10% faster than the 5870, and thus is only 10-15% slower than the 6970 which is at 480 performance.

Which again, is way way way too close for how AMD has ever slotted their cards - even the 5770 and 5850 had very sizeable performance differences.

A great chart for performance summary this is here from Xbitlabs

The ONLY way Cayman is going to have these numbers is if AMD decided to rest on their laurels and made Cayman only a minor refresh, which none of the evidence points - and in fact which contradicts your initial premise that AMD is having trouble with a high end performance GPU.

And even if its a minor refresh, all the worst case scenarios would have to occur ALL together to even be within the same ballpark as what you are suggesting.

Now if you had said the 6970 is somewhere between 480 and 580, and 6950 somewhere between 5870 and 6970, and that the 570 would be somewhere between the 6950 and 6970, I'd say that's a very conservative guess, but one that is reasonable and would mirror the GF100 vs. Cypress numbers.

Thus, this isn't a matter of "agreeing" or "disagreeing" - it's pointing out that your original argument's logic is completely incorrect and you're bringing arguments here that are incompatible with the reality of the situation

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Originally Posted by Zloyd

Its only a 2-3 week delay so I assume if they want they can increase base voltage a tad bit and increase clocks (simple bios change no?) final fine tuning to get the biggest lead possible. Considering their last chip was 5870 and now they are trying to make something thats 40% faster(to beat 580) thats a challenge(its on the same process they are trying to achieve this afterall)

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The issue with a "simple" BIOS change is that you have to take all the cards back through Quality Assurance/Control. And if they've already produced tens of thousands of cards, that can take a lot of time.

In fact, Dave Baumann of AMD posted about this over at Beyond3d

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Changing clock speeds is not something you do on a whim, nor can it be necessarily done quickly. Dependant on where you are in a qualification cycle changing clocks will have major ramifications that can result in potentially months of schedule alteration.

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Reading between the lines a bit, he's saying that changing clocks too late in the game can cause potentially months of schedule alteration.

Now if the 2-3 week delay is where it stands, it seems to rule out changing clocks and BIOS'es as well.

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So just the reasoning I can think of is amd had a lead in time over nvidia and they maybe assumed that it would be a little while yet before 580 showed up. So current cayman was aimed at 480. Perhaps they would be happy for it to play out that way for a bit, release cayman at 500$ steal 480 sales, few months later nvidia has a reply that beats it, no problem amd have sold enough cards by then milked the 500$ bracket drop price of card and beat that single chip with antilles ? Or drop pricing on antilles a bit and put preassure on fastest nvidia card(say they assumed they would have antilles out before 580 @ 650$) .

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The second issue, which you touched upon in your first paragraph, is that AMD would have a hard time on the same process.

Yes, the same process is tough... but AMD has done it before. Remember RV670->RV770? That was a tad bit more than 40% more performance on the same process, don'tcha say? :p:

And here's the kicker... if Cayman is really as new an architecture as the newest leaks/rumors are suggesting, then 40% isn't unheard of on the same process - RV770 had major changes but wasn't nearly as new an architecture.

The second thing to point out is... where is AMD's goal in reaching *just* 480 performance? Keep in mind Cypress came out last September. They've had over a year to come out with a replacement. They saw Fermi come out late, but they knew (Nvidia said it themselves) that GF100 is supposed to have 512 chips. They also knew that the Fermi series clocks really well.

Why would AMD expect that a year AFTER Fermi was supposed to be launched, that Fermi couldn't have a 512 SP card with more clocks? Of course they can expect it, they know Nvidia has enough resources that they can have extra teams devote to fixing whatever was broken for a refresh before a card is even released.

So that goes into the other point... what logical reasoning would AMD have to settle with getting a card out that only matches what their previous competitor was supposed to have a year ago? It makes no business sense, especially to release the 68xx's at a price point which forces your higher end cards to perform even better than the 480.

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Another thing I would like to point out is knowing and having a idea about your competitors next card and being able to beat it are 2 different things. I mean amd can have all the idea about intels next gen enthusiast desktop stuff but even knowing so they wont be able to beat it in outright performance so they strategise to make the most of it in other price brackets.

My earlier post had one really big assumption, amd had no idea nvidia had 580 ready already.

Also in terms of just commonsense its like you say the delay is only 2 weeks the reason is probably really simple but we are human we like drama :P

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Yes, executing != knowing. Both sides have seen this happen many times.

But AMD got Barts out on time, on the same 40nm process. Heck, AMD got the entire Evergreen family out on time, on the same 40nm process. Whether they reached their performance targets is another matter, but I don't think AMD is likely to suddenly stumble when they had no problem getting things out month after month after month :up:

As for drama... well I hope people like popcorn

You just laid it all down very well.

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Originally Posted by zerazax

The issue with a "simple" BIOS change is that you have to take all the cards back through Quality Assurance/Control. And if they've already produced tens of thousands of cards, that can take a lot of time.

In fact, Dave Baumann of AMD posted about this over at Beyond3d


Reading between the lines a bit, he's saying that changing clocks too late in the game can cause potentially months of schedule alteration.

Now if the 2-3 week delay is where it stands, it seems to rule out changing clocks and BIOS'es as well.




The second issue, which you touched upon in your first paragraph, is that AMD would have a hard time on the same process.

Yes, the same process is tough... but AMD has done it before. Remember RV670->RV770? That was a tad bit more than 40% more performance on the same process, don'tcha say? :p:

And here's the kicker... if Cayman is really as new an architecture as the newest leaks/rumors are suggesting, then 40% isn't unheard of on the same process - RV770 had major changes but wasn't nearly as new an architecture.

The second thing to point out is... where is AMD's goal in reaching *just* 480 performance? Keep in mind Cypress came out last September. They've had over a year to come out with a replacement. They saw Fermi come out late, but they knew (Nvidia said it themselves) that GF100 is supposed to have 512 chips. They also knew that the Fermi series clocks really well.

Why would AMD expect that a year AFTER Fermi was supposed to be launched, that Fermi couldn't have a 512 SP card with more clocks? Of course they can expect it, they know Nvidia has enough resources that they can have extra teams devote to fixing whatever was broken for a refresh before a card is even released.

So that goes into the other point... what logical reasoning would AMD have to settle with getting a card out that only matches what their previous competitor was supposed to have a year ago? It makes no business sense, especially to release the 68xx's at a price point which forces your higher end cards to perform even better than the 480.



Yes, executing != knowing. Both sides have seen this happen many times.

But AMD got Barts out on time, on the same 40nm process. Heck, AMD got the entire Evergreen family out on time, on the same 40nm process. Whether they reached their performance targets is another matter, but I don't think AMD is likely to suddenly stumble when they had no problem getting things out month after month after month :up:

As for drama... well I hope people like popcorn

---

Couple points Id like to add to this, yes what you say about the RV770 against the RV670 is quite true but by the standards of the day both were small chips. The last "real" big chips from ATi we have are the R520/R580 and the R600. Both had notorious leakage issues, both had mixed yields. When you compare to nVidia you have the G80, GT200 and now GF100/GF110. People like to make comparisons about how wasted and bloated nVidia's die space has been as it has been running about twice that of ATi's. But they have several years of eventually pulling off large monolithic chips at reasonable profit margins; ATi does not.

ATi made a tactical decision several years back that they would not continue large monolithic chips ever again; I applaud that effort however in order for that tact to work well they need to have functional drivers.While they as you put it have had a year to finalize Caymen they have had over 10 to have acceptable drivers that I can immediately think of starting with the 9700PRO. Promises have been made and broken and while I like what I hear about Caymen the talks of them having a superior product as a whole simply has not happened.

This has been their achilies heel in the mobile segment as well which is why they continue to not make inroads on switchable graphics as their implementation blows. So now they are faced with a non broken Fermi, and now the same people who laughed and said this was the worst chip of all time now all of a sudden people think its the best damn thing since sliced bread. Yet I and others reminded people that they (nvidia) have a tendency to do poorly on first gen parts and exceedingly well on revision parts were laughed at and were told nVidia is at their deathbed. NV30, NV40, GT200, and now GF100 are good examples of this. All were laughed at and were later vindicated as ATi continued to flounder at making an acceptable software package.

So again here we are with a similar situation; nVidia has a working chip, ATi has had an excellent chip but once again are the drivers going to pull through? My guess is no. Unless Caymen is significantly better GF110 it will fail; why? Because ATi has yet to address the fundamental problem with their products; their drivers. Until they address that in a serious way I will continue to *not* take them seriously.

In the end; powerhogging aside; which nvidia is certianly guilty of; what exactly does ATi do that is so much better than nVidia that would justify the littany of problems that purchasing said card brings? :shrug:

Heat can be controlled.
Power can be controlled.
In most games they are neck in neck, in others ATi gets thrashed, in no game does nVidia fall behind as ATi does.
I am not a programmer and therefor I cannot control driver bugs.

Therefor I take the lesser of two evils which has been for as long as I can remember; nVidia. Also while I am thinking about it;

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zerazax

Now, if you place the 570 there, you say its meant to counter the 6970...

But that would say the 6970 is ~ GTX 480 performance, which means its only ~16-20% faster than the 5870.

Then where does the 6950 go? The 6870 is already nipping on the tails of the 5870 (lets say 10%), so the 6950 certainly would have to be slotted higher, especially if AMD wants to make any sense of return on a cut down Cayman chip.

In that case, lets say 6950 is in a worst case scenario only 15-20% faster than the 6870 - reasonable given that Cayman is at least Cypress size.

However, that would mean the 6950 is only 5-10% faster than the 5870, and thus is only 10-15% slower than the 6970 which is at 480 performance.

Which again, is way way way too close for how AMD has ever slotted their cards - even the 5770 and 5850 had very sizeable performance differences.

A great chart for performance summary this is here from Xbitlabs

---

I heard this exact same argument back in the x800XT days about how DX9c didnt meant anything; turned out they were wrong, dead wrong; the bottom line is this: ATi as it stands now will continue to fall behind as time goes on like it has in the past because often they are not ahead of the technology curve. They are either behind or just at it and so anyone who reads this must understand the moment real DX11 games arrive that use tessalation; all the numbers you listed are going to get :banana::banana::banana::banana: on. ATi's use of tesselation with the current crop of 6800 series is at best half as good as nVidia and thats being generous. Also Id like to say that this isnt just an ATi issue; I remember a couple nvidiots claiming how :banana::banana::banana::banana:ty the 9700PRO was as it was beaten soundly by the FX5800 in DX8 games but got reemed when it was actually forced to use DX9; dont be fooled.

If Caymen gains significant grounds on tesselation then I take what I said back; but if its more of the same you'd be a fool to buy it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sam_oslo

Scraps to fight it's own GTX580, GTX480 etc..? That wouldn't make any sense. Even for scarpe, as you put it kindly.

GTX570 is meant to fight AMD's next move, for sure. You may argue it's mean to fight 6950, but I personally think this timing is indicating that it's meant to drop on 6970. We have to wait and see.

---

let say the GTX570 480SP is faster of the GTX480 ... how much faster ? we know the average performance gain over the GTX580 is 15%-20%...
If faster, the GTX570 will only be 5-10% faster of the GTX480 ( pure speculation ofc for the perf of the 570 )..

You really think AMD have AIM the 6970 for be only 10-15% faster of the GTX480?

Nvidia guys tell in each interview till the GTX480 release they are " confident" to be able to release the full 512SP.
Don't you think AMD had just imagine Nvidia will surely release the 512SP version next ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lanek

let say the GTX570 480SP is faster of the GTX480 ... how much faster ? we know the average performance gain over the GTX580 is 15%-20%...
If faster, the GTX570 will only 5-10% faster of the GTX480 ( pure speculation ofc for the perf of 570 )..

You really think AMD have AIM the 6970 for be only 10-15% faster of the GTX480?

Nvidia guys tell in each interview till the GTX480 release they are " confident" to be able to release the full 512SP.
Don't you think AMD had just imagine Nvidia will surely release the 512SP version next ?

---

5% is wayyyyy generous...

Let's just say Cayman will more than hold its own against these "surprises" as some like to call them, not directed at you Lanek.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LordEC911

5% is wayyyyy generous...

Let's just say Cayman will more than hold its own against these "surprises" as some like to call them, not directed at you Lanek.

---

Right with that, the surprise was just they can release it now, in November...

I don't wanna see any surprise which Phenom once did.

In general product release delays rarely mean, we've decided to delay our launch to make the product even better.

It's got to be a major decision for any company to delay a highly anticipated product release rather than launch with low quantities or even paper launch.

Thats not to say cayman won't rock when it gets here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by highoctane

In general product release delays rarely mean, we've decided to delay our launch to make the product even better.

It's got to be a major decision for any company to delay a highly anticipated product release rather than launch with low quantities or even paper launch.

Thats not to say cayman won't rock when it gets here.

---

Like the card they released a week shy of a year ago holds it's own against a newly released product?

22 nov was set.
Nvidia drop 580,
delay happens with sudden oh our 5000 line sells a lot...and the 6800 is in demand...
obviously the 580 might been 10% better than they expected so they adjusted and delayed for that.
(most likely at this point)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by flopper

adjusted and delayed for that.
(most likely at this point)

---

Not likely at all. They are way too far along at this point, see zerazax's posts with quotes from Dave.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LordEC911

Not likely at all. They are way too far along at this point, see zerazax's posts with quotes from Dave.

---

This can also happen on the software side.
Imagine this: AMD thinks the GTX580 will be just an announcement (or paper launch). AMD prepares HD6900 drivers (new architecture!) with a focus on compatibility and stability (not performance, as there is no competitor expected). They plan to deliver a performance enhanced driver later, when Nvidia does deliver - to counter their card.
But now the competitor is already here...

News:

http://www.techpowerup.com/134383/Ra...-December.html

Originally poised for a November 22 launch, and plagued by reported delays, the Radeon HD 6900 series from AMD is indeed staring down at a three-week delay. According to a new release by AMD circulated to press sites, AMD is pinning the new launch date to be "in the week of" December 13, 2010. AMD tried to explain that the Radeon HD 5800 series is still in strong demand, and the Radeon HD 5970 is still maintaining performance leadership, perhaps blaming congestion in inventories for the delay, and not anything to do with manufacturing.

The first part of the explanation is unconvincing. If AMD did not want to disturb Radeon HD 5800 series sales, there wouldn't be Radeon HD 6800 series, which was launched with the idea of giving HD 5800-like performance at more affordable prices. The second part, however, is hard to dispute. AMD signed off its release saying that enthusiasts will find the products worth the wait. December 13, however, could disturb some gifting (or self-gifting) plans for Xmas. Given the swamped courier and logistics services at that time, it will be tough to get a Radeon HD 6900 series product in time for the celebrations.


And:
http://translate.google.it/translate...n&hl=&ie=UTF-8

AMD has officially tell us that the launch of the Radeon HD 6900 was postponed from 22 November to mid-December, exact date not yet determined. An announcement is perplexing since just before the online test the GeForce GTX 580, AMD has assured us that the rumors were inaccurate and delayed the launch would proceed as planned, the manufacturer also giving us a date for the arrival of the test samples in order to support his statements.

To justify this change of plans, AMD highlights the fact that the Radeon HD 5800 is still selling well and the Radeon HD 5970 has not been beaten by the GeForce GTX 580, a second argument somewhat since boat arrival the latter was not foreseen when the original date was set.

If it is possible that sales of Radeon HD 5000 were worse than expected in recent months, resulting in formation of significant stocks to try to sell before the arrival of the next generation, we highly doubt that AMD will come from the realize that very day.


The launch of the Radeon HD 6900 as originally planned.

We are ultimately faced with several options. AMD either lied to us in one form or another to ensure that we recommend to buyers interested in a GeForce GTX 580 to wait, while the delay of the Radeon HD 6900 was already evident due to excessive inventories of Radeon HD 5800, manufacturing problem of the card or GPU or Cayman Focus drivers dedicated to it. AMD is realized afterwards that the Radeon HD 6970 would have difficulties with the GeForce GTX 580 and decided to review the specifications of it to ensure pass.

From our side, if the frequency and number of processing units were not disclosed accurate, based on some information we have, we believe that the Radeon HD 6970 should be 20 to 30% more efficient than Radeon HD 5870 ... is exactly what the GeForce GTX 580. It is indeed possible that AMD has had to play somewhat with frequency in the last minute ...

In all cases, we are moving probably to a very limited availability of the Radeon HD 6950 and 6970 for Christmas, which could leave the field open to the GeForce GTX 580 with the early arrival surprised many people.

We've updated the conclusion of our feature on the GeForce GTX 580 so as to take into account this new information.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LordEC911

Not likely at all. They are way too far along at this point, see zerazax's posts with quotes from Dave.

---

Dave speaks months, not 3 weeks after 580 launched.
if they did that it be missing the christmas sales.
unless they did this months back but that havent been the case to anyone sicne 22nov was set a long time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by flopper

they never been silent before.
every time they launch a great card (whoop ass can) they drum the drums.
every time they get ass kicked, they dont.

---

WHAT.

The whoopass situation was when they launched GTX 280. They employed TERROR FANFARE talking about the card and how much ass was about the kicked. The result? One of the biggest fiascos in their history with incredibly high priced cards getting their asses kicked by the competition's surprise offerings.

And how about the Fermi launch? "Are You Ready For The Announcement Time of The Day In Which We Will Tell You When The Product Is Going to Be Announced"? "CRANK THAT S#!7 UP" etc etc. Another underwhelming product.

So their PR is silent now and you have determined that it's because their product is going to suck compared to what AMD's offerings will be. And you say their PR is silent because they don't want to make people buy their cards in the sole month they are in a good position (before 6900's come out)

Really, cool story, bro. The lack of logic in some people is overwhelming sometimes. When there are some facts, and you try to interpret the facts as a proof of Nvidia's sucktitude whether or not they actually are, you sound funny.

PowerColor said to Donimhaber that 6900 is 30 to 50 % more powerfull than 6800 series.

Jeez, that is an impressive claim. Considering 6800 is roughly 10-15% slower than GTX580 in a best case scenario then looks like we are onto a winner here. Competition is good for sure, but I've always been an AMDTI fanboy :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by eXceededgoku

Jeez, that is an impressive claim. Considering 6800 is roughly 10-15% slower than GTX580 in a best case scenario then looks like we are onto a winner here. Competition is good for sure, but I've always been an AMDTI fanboy :)

---

That's more 40 % no ?

That would be kinda disappointing if that was the case :down: to be honest.

I guess i was was hyped too much by the R300 rumor.

Lets just see anyway... i hate all this speculation :rofl:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by flopper

they never been silent before.
every time they launch a great card (whoop ass can) they drum the drums.
every time they get ass kicked, they dont.
its consistent behaviour for Nvidia.
they also do a ton of dmg control if that happens, woodscrews anyone?

---

Actually quite the opposite. Nvidias PR is always strong, but whenever they are about to release a product that doesn't quite deliver they talk it up the most. GF5 series , GTX280 and GF100 were all hyped up as revolutionary before launch and are good examples of this behaviour

They were dead silent before G80. Nobody knew what was coming till it landed on their head. This isn't anywhere near the same thing of course but they have at times been very quiet in the past.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Olivon

PowerColor said to Donimhaber that 6900 is 30 to 50 % more powerfull than 6800 series.

---

Yeah ,that woman also said that new generation of 6000 cards (meaning 6900) will be released in 1-2 weeks. and Dual-core cards will be launched in December 2010 - FAKE!!!
:down:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpuTnicK

Yeah ,that woman also said that new generation of 6000 cards (meaning 6900) will be released in 1-2 weeks. and Dual-core cards will be launched in December 2010 - FAKE!!!
:down:

---

or just old

AMD's marketing (or lack of) is dropping the ball here. In light of the 3 week delay they need to throw a couple bones out there to potential buyers to wait for their Cayman release.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kadozer

AMD's marketing (or lack of) is dropping the ball here. In light of the 3 week delay they need to throw a couple bones out there to potential buyers to wait for their Cayman release.

---

No they don't need to, if they can't ship enough 6800's then I think the same will happen with the 6900's too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iconyu

No they don't need to, if they can't ship enough 6800's then I think the same will happen with the 6900's too.

---

I know bulk of sales this holiday season will be from Barts I should've added that in my previous statement. It wouldn't take much to whip up a couple slides and 1-2 benchmarks.
Reason why I think is because Dec 13 shipping will barely make it to the retail in time. Talking about last minute shopping here for consumers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bill_d

or just old

---

Tell it to Mr. VR-Zone :D

And here is another RUMOR!!!

if amd is able to sell all 6900s, expect a high price until early january, or expect to hear me say some dumb things about amd not taking advantage of the market.

......................

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by eXceededgoku

Jeez, that is an impressive claim. Considering 6800 is roughly 10-15% slower than GTX580 in a best case scenario then looks like we are onto a winner here. Competition is good for sure, but I've always been an AMDTI fanboy :)

---

10-15% maybe to a gtx 480 and even then it still probably in a best case scenario is 20%

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4008/n...rce-gtx-580/15

This is the very best the 6870 does against the gtx 480 and this situation is particularly CPU limited because it is an old game(e.g SLI 580 performs more or less the same as a gtx 580). Most of the time it is closer to 50%. In 3 out of the 10 games in anandtech's review, it was 70%(battleforge, hawx and dirt 2).

When the 6870 is losing to the gtx 580 in a game that loves AMD cards like battlefield bad company 2 by 48%, 30-50% doesn't look too good.

Its pointless to make compare 6800 and 6900 series in new games, using new tech. For all we know they dont share the same architecture...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tajoh111

10-15% maybe to a gtx 480 and even then it still probably in a best case scenario is 20%

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4008/n...rce-gtx-580/15

This is the very best the 6870 does against the gtx 480 and this situation is particularly CPU limited because it is an old game(e.g SLI 580 performs more or less the same as a gtx 580). Most of the time it is closer to 50%. In 3 out of the 10 games in anandtech's review, it was 70%(battleforge, hawx and dirt 2).

When the 6870 is losing to the gtx 580 in a game that loves AMD cards like battlefield bad company 2 by 48%, 30-50% doesn't look too good.

---

By quick calculations, GTX580 is 20-60% faster than HD6870 in those testes. So HD6970 at 50% more than HD6870 would most likely winning some and losing some. So basically it would about par in performance. Ofc it still has so much room to change depending on its architechtures improvement points. If they can improve lot in situations where GTX580 is strong, it could come at overall winner. But in other way also, it could come overall loser. Shame we need to wait so long..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mechanical Man

By quick calculations, GTX580 is 20-60% faster than HD6870 in those testes. So HD6970 at 50% more than HD6870 would most likely winning some and losing some. So basically it would about par in performance. Ofc it still has so much room to change depending on its architechtures improvement points. If they can improve lot in situations where GTX580 is strong, it could come at overall winner. But in other way also, it could come overall loser. Shame we need to wait so long..

---

it will be interesting, since the arch is changing, who knows which games it will be strong or weak on.

i honestly do not expect such an even difference like we saw with the 580 relative to 480.

hopefully they also give us 10.12 cats with their December release. otherwise a week later people will have to update them again for who knows what kind of perf boost. (im sure w1zzard wouldnt like having to do a review all over again the week of the holidays because amd couldnt get them out just a little sooner than normal)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mechanical Man

By quick calculations, GTX580 is 20-60% faster than HD6870 in those testes. So HD6970 at 50% more than HD6870 would most likely winning some and losing some. So basically it would about par in performance. Ofc it still has so much room to change depending on its architechtures improvement points. If they can improve lot in situations where GTX580 is strong, it could come at overall winner. But in other way also, it could come overall loser. Shame we need to wait so long..

---

Take out the CPU limited titles and you are looking at a 40-70% difference in performance.

Sorry don't read well what you was saying .... yes but well, in general reviews don't use a lot of cpu limited games ( as CV5 ) .... the GTX580 is 15-20% faster in average of the GTX480... it's not 1 cpu limited games who will change this average in a review... specially if you include games as LP2 or Hawx2 in it ( where Nvidia cards are 200% faster of AMD gpu's, )

Even if 6970 just matches 580, Antilles will simply run over it.AMD may match the single GPU perf. crown and sit comfortably at top spot when it comes to ultimate single card performance. And then after that comes NI+ on 28nm ,where we may see another doubling of now 4 way SIMDs...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by eXceededgoku

Jeez, that is an impressive claim. Considering 6800 is roughly 10-15% slower than GTX580 in a best case scenario then looks like we are onto a winner here. Competition is good for sure, but I've always been an AMDTI fanboy :)

---

6800 15% slower than... GTX 580? OH... so THAT's the world "AMDTI fanboy"s are in. I was kind of wondering.

Hum everyone seems to be ignoring one fact - AMD lowered the price and has to allow time to clear inventory of the very expensive to produce 5970. They now sell for the same as the 580 and will become completely obsolete once AMD releases a single chip with similar performance for 50-100$ cheaper.

I believe the delay is to allow for stock clearing - most importantly of 5970.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dimitriman

I believe the delay is to allow for stock clearing - most importantly of 5970.

---

I wouldn't want to buy a 5970 if I could get a 580.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrMojoZ

I wouldn't want to buy a 5970 if I could get a 580.

---

sure, but that doesnt mean they are not selling. 5970 is still marginally faster.
three weeks is nothing of a delay in terms of an entire production schedule, but it is a lot of time for sales and stock clearance for these kinds of products.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dimitriman

sure, but that doesnt mean they are not selling. 5970 is still marginally faster.
three weeks is nothing of a delay in terms of an entire production schedule, but it is a lot of time for sales and stock clearance for these kinds of products.

---

Your forgetting one thing, during the next three weeks black friday is happening and if they launch it Dec 9, more than half of the christmas buying season will be over. Its one of the best times to have a product for sale because people will be buying at the most frenetic pace and people are also willing to pay extra during christmas. If it launches on Dec 9, your going to miss alot of the christmas sales and even if you sell out of your first batch, your going to go through hell get the second shipment going because both sides(the distribution and sellers) are going to be bottlenecked because of the business of the christmas season.

In addition, if AMD is trying to clear out the 5970 at 499. It doing a lousy job at making that price official because only newegg.com has it at 499 for a single brand and pretty much everywhere else in canada and the usa is still 600 plus.

You know what? I think there's something about Cayman we haven't even guessed at. With the HD4k's it was the shader count, HD5k's it was Eyefinity, with Cayman it could be shader count again, but it would have to be above 1920 to be a real shock that number has been floating around for ages.

You guys think AMD added another feature they are trying to shock us with?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iconyu

You know what? I think there's something about Cayman we haven't even guessed at. With the HD4k's it was the shader count, HD5k's it was Eyefinity, with Cayman it could be shader count again, but it would have to be above 1920 to be a real shock that number has been floating around for ages.

You guys think AMD added another feature they are trying to shock us with?

---

no.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tajoh111

Your forgetting one thing, during the next three weeks black friday is happening and if they launch it Dec 9, more than half of the christmas buying season will be over. Its one of the best times to have a product for sale because people will be buying at the most frenetic pace and people are also willing to pay extra during christmas. If it launches on Dec 9, your going to miss alot of the christmas sales and even if you sell out of your first batch, your going to go through hell get the second shipment going because both sides(the distribution and sellers) are going to be bottlenecked because of the business of the christmas season.

In addition, if AMD is trying to clear out the 5970 at 499. It doing a lousy job at making that price official because only newegg.com has it at 499 for a single brand and pretty much everywhere else in canada and the usa is still 600 plus.

---

First of all, buyers of $400+ GPUs aren't the majority of Christmas shoppers... second, most of them buy regardless of the season (when people aren't buying anything in January for example, high end GPUs can still come out and be sold out) since they are enthusiasts, and third... why would AMD sell a high-end GPU on Black Friday? They're not going to sell it at a discount anyways, so why bother dealing with all the expectations of a discount?

Everyone knows high end GPUs are a niche in itself, and aren't going to be bought by your typical Christmas shopper - Barts on the other hand, will do so. I think you're reaching wayyyy too far with the Christmas analogy

And the 5970 is already out of stock for the $700 models (sans XFX) on Newegg, and will probably be pulled

More importantly though is that the 5870's can be bought in the mid $200's w/ rebate now...now that's clearing stock

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Motiv

no.

---

Most definitely yes. This was hinted at just over a week ago by someone at B3d.
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.p...postcount=4444

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iconyu

You guys think AMD added another feature they are trying to shock us with?

---

Yes. And I dont meant temperature :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zerazax

First of all, buyers of $400+ GPUs aren't the majority of Christmas shoppers... second, most of them buy regardless of the season (when people aren't buying anything in January for example, high end GPUs can still come out and be sold out) since they are enthusiasts, and third... why would AMD sell a high-end GPU on Black Friday? They're not going to sell it at a discount anyways, so why bother dealing with all the expectations of a discount?

Everyone knows high end GPUs are a niche in itself, and aren't going to be bought by your typical Christmas shopper - Barts on the other hand, will do so. I think you're reaching wayyyy too far with the Christmas analogy

And the 5970 is already out of stock for the $700 models (sans XFX) on Newegg, and will probably be pulled

More importantly though is that the 5870's can be bought in the mid $200's w/ rebate now...now that's clearing stock

---

I think your ignoring a lot of evidence. the 300-500 dollar price card range is larger than you think. The amount of 58xx series card out there, which have spent most of their life between 280 and 4xx price range, are pretty much the same amount according to steam hardware survey as the 57xx series. Both carry around a 33% market share of the direct x 11 market. The Antilles price range is definitely niche though and I think that word is overused.

Additionally black friday is not just about buying stuff on sale, its about people buying stuff for themselves and for Christmas, even when it is not necessarily on sale. People will pay stupid markup on christmas unlike any other season. Most companies gives those blockbuster deals just to get people in the store to shop as much of these discounted items are priced at or below cost. Also for november, look at pretty much every major videogame console hardware release, PS3, PS2, xbox, xbox 360, gamecube, wii, all mid to late november release. I would definitely say videocards relate to gaming.

You would be surprised at how many people will gift their special someone with hardware or with a computer, electronics etc. People will buy themselves more stuff during christmas because they feel more liberal to spending. Most things besides maybe houses, have epic sales during the november- december months.

There are still lots of 5970s out there and not at 500 dollars, go to pricegrabber. Companies like tigerdirect and mwave still have 5970s for 700 dollars.

any discrete graphics card price range is a niche of a niche, whether you're talking $100 or $500, because they're all uncommon compared to total computer sales

yeah Christmas analogy is going way to far its kinda ridiculous.

just got myself a HIS 6870 to hold me over until cayman is released,got tired of waiting

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tajoh111

I think your ignoring a lot of evidence. the 300-500 dollar price card range is larger than you think. The amount of 58xx series card out there, which have spent most of their life between 280 and 4xx price range, are pretty much the same amount according to steam hardware survey as the 57xx series. Both carry around a 33% market share of the direct x 11 market. The Antilles price range is definitely niche though and I think that word is overused.

Additionally black friday is not just about buying stuff on sale, its about people buying stuff for themselves and for Christmas, even when it is not necessarily on sale. People will pay stupid markup on christmas unlike any other season. Most companies gives those blockbuster deals just to get people in the store to shop as much of these discounted items are priced at or below cost. Also for november, look at pretty much every major videogame console hardware release, PS3, PS2, xbox, xbox 360, gamecube, wii, all mid to late november release. I would definitely say videocards relate to gaming.

You would be surprised at how many people will gift their special someone with hardware or with a computer, electronics etc. People will buy themselves more stuff during christmas because they feel more liberal to spending. Most things besides maybe houses, have epic sales during the november- december months.

There are still lots of 5970s out there and not at 500 dollars, go to pricegrabber. Companies like tigerdirect and mwave still have 5970s for 700 dollars.

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Again, you're overstating graphics cards and the holidays. People most often buy gifts that are common general electronics - TV's, gaming consoles, blu-ray players, etc. and they are reflected in Black Friday ads. In fact, the # of TV's, gaming consoles, and other general electronics pushed out there are in volumes many orders of magnitude greater than any GPU sales.

How many Black Friday ads discount enthusiast cards? For that matter, how many even discount performance class cards?

Most GPU ads on Black Friday are often cheap giveaways of low end cards, esp. since it's a quick way to get rid of bad cards to to unsuspecting buyers.

The vast majority of GPU buyers, especially when we start talking about the $300+ range, are people who know a thing or two about GPUs, and most often buy from etailers such as Newegg.

And again, that's why Black Friday and Christmas sales almost never discount recently released cards - for the same reason recently released cards often rise in price in the first few months - because they know the buyers of these cards tend to be a niche within a niche.

You're much more likely to see the 5800's get put on big discounts for Black Friday this year because they're EOL - my bet is you won't see any 6800's or 580's get put on big discounts of any kind, and for those same reasons, there's no reason AMD needs Cayman to be pushed out for Black Friday - because they know their buyers will buy a new high end card regardless of whether it falls on a holiday or not.

I hate car analogies but this is an apt one: it's the same reason you don't see Porsches or high end BMWs etc. get put on sales, until they're EOL. Because they know their higher end cards are a small market relative to the rest of the automotive industry, but their buyers will buy whenever new models that fit their criteria are out, and thus there is almost never a need to discount a car - and often, they get marked up because of demand.

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Originally Posted by tajoh111

10-15% maybe to a gtx 480 and even then it still probably in a best case scenario is 20%

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4008/n...rce-gtx-580/15

This is the very best the 6870 does against the gtx 480 and this situation is particularly CPU limited because it is an old game(e.g SLI 580 performs more or less the same as a gtx 580). Most of the time it is closer to 50%. In 3 out of the 10 games in anandtech's review, it was 70%(battleforge, hawx and dirt 2).

When the 6870 is losing to the gtx 580 in a game that loves AMD cards like battlefield bad company 2 by 48%, 30-50% doesn't look too good.

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580 is 40% faster in that game..

Anyway, so much mindless arguing.. it's been pretty clear Cayman XT is going to be around GTX580 performance for some time. be it + or - a few % come review time doesn't really matter.. AMDs own slides ahve positioned it Faster than a 480, Slower than a 5970.. do the maths !

To me, it's going to come down to power consumption, OCing, and price

I do think single card Eyefinity might sway people. The counter argument a single card isn't powerful enough for EF won't really hold for some time.. (till games pull it to its knees)

You can accomodate the slides to your own convenience.

-Ordered by price
-Ordered by level (Cayman is not an ultrahigh gpu, Hemlock was, Antilles will be)

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Originally Posted by Nintendork

You can accomodate the slides to your own convenience.

-Ordered by price
-Ordered by level (Cayman is not an ultrahigh gpu, Hemlock was, Antilles will be)

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Except when the slides are labeled Performance


http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/1893/34434633.png

you also got to remember the disclaimer, posted a couple of pages back as those slides only being a representation, it does not depict factual performance, and the Brissie weather is muggy as hell

those slides don't mean anything especially when you think that in real life barts xt is on par with gtx 470

I'm not naive enough to think the slides represent exact performance, but clearly Cayman is positioned above GTX480 , yet below HD5970.. that is all.

There's not a lot of room between those two cards.

The right hand slide is the most recent (November) So if we concentrate on that, It's a Given Cayman XT would ship faster than GTX480, but it also clearly positions it below HD5970, There's no getting away from that..

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and the Brissie weather is muggy as hell

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Tell me about it!, I like it like this though :)

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Originally Posted by mAJORD

Tell me about it!, I like it like this though :)

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ghey pseudo-summer weather :p

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Originally Posted by mAJORD

I do think single card Eyefinity might sway people. The counter argument a single card isn't powerful enough for EF won't really hold for some time.. (till games pull it to its knees)

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Buying 2 cards for Eyefinity will make a lot more sense than before as well. With 2 cards you would be necked by the 1GB limit faster than that you would be able to use the full power of 2.

With Cayman having 2GB you could just get 1 card and get a second one later when you need one, or just throw 1K on the table right now to get 2 GTX580s cause they still haven't added hardware support for surround.

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Originally Posted by Vipeax

Buying 2 cards for Eyefinity will make a lot more sense than before as well. With 2 cards you would be necked by the 1GB limit faster than that you would be able to use the full power of 2.

With Cayman having 2GB you could just get 1 card and get a second one later when you need one, or just throw 1K on the table right now to get 2 GTX580s cause they still haven't added hardware support for surround.

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It is rater disappointing that they did not manage to add any more features, although its the same mArch, hence why Cayman will be a good contender, plenty more features, eyefinity, stereo-tropic ;) sound, and many more

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Originally Posted by kuroikenshi

It is rater disappointing that they did not manage to add any more features, although its the same mArch, hence why Cayman will be a good contender, plenty more features, eyefinity, stereo-tropic ;) sound, and many more

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i don't know, but amd's implementation of stereoscopic 3d looks more like beta testing grounds... doesn't really work that well yet.

didn't test it myself, but the guy over at 3dvision-blog.com really had a hard time getting everything to work, and even if he got the drivers to work the results often weren't as intended/expected.

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Originally Posted by RaZz!

i don't know, but amd's implementation of stereoscopic 3d looks more like beta testing grounds... doesn't really work that well yet.

didn't test it myself, but the guy over at 3dvision-blog.com really had a hard time getting everything to work, and even if he got the drivers to work the results often weren't as intended/expected.

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Reminds me of OpenCL. Not enough support and too much relying on 3rd parties.

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Originally Posted by RaZz!

i don't know, but amd's implementation of stereoscopic 3d looks more like beta testing grounds... doesn't really work that well yet.

didn't test it myself, but the guy over at 3dvision-blog.com really had a hard time getting everything to work, and even if he got the drivers to work the results often weren't as intended/expected.

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Actually it's rather new, and for what i know they take a different approach ... ( need say, the monitor and TV used by 3Dvision was just show problem of compatibility, the experience is totally different when you have a "fully " hardware compatible )

As all the visual industry is moving to the 3D, they just ensure their drivers and UVD are compatible and work with any system from Samsung, Sony, Asus etc etc for the 3D BlueRay things ..
Now for the 3D in games, the problem come more it's really the start, D3D and IZD have annonce now only focus on drivers solutions and stop the production of hardware..... let them a little bit of time for this ...
I think AMD is on the right way with it... you can use any hardware, monitor, glasses, TV 3D compatible and use it with any gpu's...
Asus, Dell, HP, or any other Laptop, PC builder, don't want to get the need to use a "Nvidia GPU's brand only" if they want to bring 3D games on their systems, when specially they have their own systems for 3D....
3D is becoming a "standard" and industry want a large public to acquire it .... Time will tell how it will turn....

@Zallbard, OpenCL have nothing to do by an exclusivity of AMD, there's around 30 IT entreprise working on it, including AMD, Nvidia, Microsoft, Apple, IBM, Intel etc etc...
OpenCL is a standard, like HTML5, or anything like this, it take times to finalise it... It's not a "software " and API like CUDA...

3D is ridiculous and it's a surefire way to get crosseyed. It should've remained in the shadows like the stillborn it was supposed to be.

a) Looking at slightly offset images is bad for your eyes for prolonged periods of time

b) Glasses, active shutter or not, are usually uncomfortable

c) The depth is forward projected, and in the end seems very fake. Contrasts between different layers of focus are way too sharp. It's like looking at those magic pictures where you had to cross your eyes to see dolphins on a background of noise.

Someone posts a rumor that the 6970 will fall short of the GTX 580 and the thread falls to page 2? Wierd!

I see the GTX 580 is getting sold out more and more on Newegg. I'm pondering picking up the Asus once they get more in... but I'd hate to get one before I know what the 6970 can do... choices choices.

So whats the latest and greatest on our dear friend Cayman? i havnt been following the thread lately? thanks