Have aesthetics overridden performance?

[phelan1777]

use the search function bud. It is all there. Look at discussions of the EK vs DD GPU blocks AFTER the 8800 GTX series. some comments related to bead blasted surface of DD block vs shiny surface of EK block. Some comments pertained to the shape of the copper. Look at the threads. the posts are there. I am not saying you were in the post but those who where pretty much stated what I have said. all the time I still paid due respect to the EK product as it is clearly a great product overall. All I have fought is smack talk unless there are tests to prove performance is sub-par or if there are reliability issues. DD now has back plates for the 1366 blocks and also for the 280 blocks. That at least in part came from feedback here.

So this post is in direct contradiction as you use some That is one specific case but again not everyone will agree with you and that is my point. You made a gross generalization and now are doing a 180 in your choice of words which negates your initial statement completely.

We know the guys @ DD and EK read here, I have met the guys @ DD :P even had dinner with them.

Wow I feel weird saying that lol.

I own a few EK blocks personally and they work well for my purpose.

If a DD block has better performance that is significantly better then an EK block I will go with that, but if the EK block is ugly as sin but has better performance (more then 10-15c) then I will go with that and I am sure there are others that would agree.

When I did my first WC setup I read thru this forum, added all I read and followed the logic:good pump,good rad, good tubing, good waterblock.. no bling..
System has been up and running since August 2007 untouched..
Yes, untouched..

Only took nearly three years and having the parts forced in your front door to convince you to move to water.

[DarthBeavis]

I disagree with the statement above. I had both the 8800 DD block and the EK block to test myself. There was no difference at all from my own testing in between the two blocks. This is one of the areas where choosing based upon aesthetics is acceptable. (On a side note, a small run of DD's blocks during the 8800 era had microfractures resulting in leaks, which started the EK craze).

You missed one thing bud :

If you think DD = bling then have clearly not been at XS in the past year or so

The 8800 series predates the time period I am referring to. I did not like the 8800 series block personally and begged them to go back to the older design.

You're trying to straw man me again. I have no issues with people doing wire management, sleeving, etc. Heck I do that myself. I'm all for wire management, sleeving, nice tube routing, etc. These are all things that can be done to make a build really look nice and stand out without sacrificing performance. I'm not against aesthetics at all. I myself have purchased Bitspower SB/NB/Mosfet blocks along with Bitspower compression fittings because they look great. More importantly, they don't come at a cost of performance.

No, not trying to strawman you. That is my argument and point of view. The new shiny BP fittings are just ways to help do tubing neatly as far as I am concerned. I would not use a block based on looks (I have seen blocks other than what I use that are way 'blingier" but I want something that has decent performance if test results are available or if I have used it in another build so I know it works).

Koolance's products may be on par these days, but not a year ago when I was last active. If things have changed, then they're for the better due to the XS performance crowd blasting them for their misrepresentations and alu use.

yes I totally agree. and again, I was one of the people harping on them via their proxy about aluminum. Koolance Dean, you can talk to Travis Jank about our hours of conversation over the last two years about this subject. Travis is one of the people Koolance listens to among others.

You would have a point about price, if all the sub par blocks did not cost the same if not grossly more than the top blocks (like the Fuzion). I think a 2C difference is substantial, especially when you see D-Tek and Swiftech battling it out for the crown just to top each other by .5C. That's what I want to see, the push for performance. It'd be a damn shame if WC companies start putting our more sub par products and neglecting R&D simply because they see the paris hilton mentality start going out of control with people only wanting "pretty" blocks.

Yes, one of my big blind spots is paying attention to price. I need people to keep me aware of that weakness.

I think you and I probably agree or more than not. I just am not good at communicating via forum posts. For that I apologize.

Another strawman argument. You forget the ridiculous costs associated with running Vapo's and/or TEC's. I have both and will not wish to go back to the days where my energy bill's shot up 50%, especially when living in Southern California where Edison Electric legally rapes us.

no, you are right about costs, but then I am not concerned with that aspect for me personally. So Cal electric prices are legalized rape (lived there a while and heard it got bad after I left). My point is you are talking small deltas. If it is that important to get you peeved off then taking a 50% hit on your electrical bill might be cheaper than having to get blood pressure medication so you can read these forums

Come back and post on a more regular basis. Things are not as bad as it seems

[ranker]

You missed one thing bud :

The 8800 series predates the time period I am referring to. I did not like the 8800 series block personally and begged them to go back to the older design.


No, not trying to strawman you. That is my argument and point of view. The new shiny BP fittings are just ways to help do tubing neatly as far as I am concerned. I would not use a block based on looks (I have seen blocks other than what I use that are way 'blingier" but I want something that has decent performance if test results are available or if I have used it in another build so I know it works).


yes I totally agree. and again, I was one of the people harping on them via their proxy about aluminum. Koolance Dean, you can talk to Travis Jank about our hours of conversation over the last two years about this subject. Travis is one of the people Koolance listens to among others.


Yes, one of my big blind spots is paying attention to price. I need people to keep me aware of that weakness.

I think you and I probably agree or more than not. I just am not good at communicating via forum posts. For that I apologize.



no, you are right about costs, but then I am not concerned with that aspect for me personally. So Cal electric prices are legalized rape (lived there a while and heard it got bad after I left). My point is you are talking small deltas. If it is that important to get you peeved off then taking a 50% hit on your electrical bill might be cheaper than having to get blood pressure medication so you can read these forums

Come back and post on a more regular basis. Things are not as bad as it seems

Reading your older posts, I understand we agree on more than we disagree.

I really hope they're not as bad as they seem. When I joined XS, it was one of the few bastions still standing for those who sought "xtreme" performance. Every other site like [H], Anandtech ended up being over run with people easily fooled by marketing and pretty pictures. Forgive me for being a bit touchy when it comes to a place and community I hold dearly.

[DarthBeavis]

So this post is in direct contradiction as you use some That is one specific case but again not everyone will agree with you and that is my point. You made a gross generalization and now are doing a 180 in your choice of words which negates your initial statement completely.

Is your issue my use of the word all vs some? if so, then I used the wrong word. SOME people here said this and that, not ALL sorry, I get a little emotional at times. Steele Magnolias is on TV and I am trying not to cry. I better not post while Fried Green Tomatoes is on . . .sheesh.

If a DD block has better performance that is significantly better then an EK block I will go with that, but if the EK block is ugly as sin but has better performance (more then 10-15c) then I will go with that and I am sure there are others that would agree.

Dude if a block out performs a DD block by 10-15 c I will switch although it will not be a month before that have a block that performs as well once they hear about the other product.

Since you have met the DD guys you know they are down to Earth guys (as I am sure Eddy and Gabe are) who just want to make a good product and keep their customers happy. You also know the environment here has not always been accepting of anyone but vendor X or Y at a given time even with no solid basis for that. It has not been for reasons like price either. There were rabid attitudes from people who probably did not even have the product in hand (hope you guys do not make me search out posts from over a year ago and start up a long-buried crap storm over this).

[DarthBeavis]

Reading your older posts, I understand we agree on more than we disagree.

I really hope they're not as bad as they seem. When I joined XS, it was one of the few bastions still standing for those who sought "xtreme" performance. Every other site like [H], Anandtech ended up being over run with people easily fooled by marketing and pretty pictures. Forgive me for being a bit touchy when it comes to a place and community I hold dearly.

If anything, this thread show we need some TESTS. Something we can all agree on so at least we are informed H2Oers. I would do it but I have two days to finish getting ready for CES 2009. You will have great sorrow when you hear my build for it is blingy, but I tried as hard as I could do at least have some performance even though it is a show piece (two 360 rads with Yate Loons in push/pull, just Bei Fei/Naekuh NB/SB, DD 1366 block (chose the new block not tdx to try out) with Asus PT6 Deluxe, i7 940, and quad SLI, two Corsair SSD drives and two WD Velociraptors, air-brushed Silverstone Zeus PSU.

If you are at CES you can see it on display in the Lexar/Crucial booth. I have to assemble it on site. . .arg. I picked up the shell from Smooth Creations today, the rest Crucial is trucking up for me.

[Serpentarius]

Bling bling, aesthetic is extra for me ... but after looking at those wonderful worklogs ... i cant help it but to have aesthetics over performance
Aesthetic PCs is very addictive, just like sexy girls .. you know what am I talking about, you just cant help but to look

[fart_plume]

Let's see my opinion, you can have performance or you can have bling, sometimes the better performing parts are blingy(which most parts are becoming anyway), but to combine both parts and make the m perform like they should and look good in a new way takes an exceptionally creative mind.

Some of don't care about bling one way or the other, some care more about looks than performance, while still yet some like to blend the best of both worlds.

[Movieman]

Bling bling, aesthetic is extra for me ... but after looking at those wonderful worklogs ... i cant help it but to have aesthetics over performance
Aesthetic PCs is very addictive, just like sexy girls .. you know what am I talking about, you just cant help but to look

I agree totally. While I might not have the drive and patience to put the time into builds such as DB,CD and others do I always take the time to look at their work in admiration.

[Vapor]

When I did my first WC setup I read thru this forum, added all I read and followed the logic:good pump,good rad, good tubing, good waterblock.. no bling..
System has been up and running since August 2007 untouched..
Yes, untouched..

The way it should be

Now as options have expanded though....eh, there's some leeway here and there for discretion.

WC here is really starting to seem more and more optimized here....XS is still the place where you can come to get the best performance possible, even if you have design constraints (noise, budget, routing, even aesthetics). There's no longer a cut and dry answer for what's best--there are four big players in the radiator market right now with somewhat comparable performance (TFC, PA series, GTX series, MCR series), a handful of CPU blocks, a few pumps and top combos, etc.

Someone who comes in wanting the best performance, with that being their only objective....there is a pretty straightforward answer (EK Supreme, GTX480 or 560 + insane-o fans, Iwaki or dual MCP355 + tops....IMO at least), but that situation is pretty rare these days These days it's really more along the lines of "what can I do with a single 120x3 radiator--that's all my case will fit" or "aiming for silence here" or "I have a limited budget" or whatever...

Then from there, there's everyone's individual twist on how to implement said loop....that's probably where a lot of the Bitspower stuff comes in, when people simply don't want to deal with complex tube routing based on their own choices along the way

Heck, if we're talking about all-out performance, who even says watercooling can beat aircooling in a noise-be-damned scenario (CPU only )

[DarthBeavis]

The way it should be

Now as options have expanded though....eh, there's some leeway here and there for discretion.

WC here is really starting to seem more and more optimized here....XS is still the place where you can come to get the best performance possible, even if you have design constraints (noise, budget, routing, even aesthetics). There's no longer a cut and dry answer for what's best--there are four big players in the radiator market right now with somewhat comparable performance (TFC, PA series, GTX series, MCR series), a handful of CPU blocks, a few pumps and top combos, etc.

Someone who comes in wanting the best performance, with that being their only objective....there is a pretty straightforward answer (EK Supreme, GTX480 or 560 + insane-o fans, Iwaki or dual MCP355 + tops....IMO at least), but that situation is pretty rare these days These days it's really more along the lines of "what can I do with a single 120x3 radiator--that's all my case will fit" or "aiming for silence here" or "I have a limited budget" or whatever...

Then from there, there's everyone's individual twist on how to implement said loop....that's probably where a lot of the Bitspower stuff comes in, when people simply don't want to deal with complex tube routing based on their own choices along the way

Heck, if we're talking about all-out performance, who even says watercooling can beat aircooling in a noise-be-damned scenario (CPU only )

I HATE to admit this but my highest 3dmark06 score was on a test rig ALL one air . . . (embarrassed). QX9650 with two 3870 X2s with CPU on a Zahlman air-cooler and GPUs on stock cooling with 120 fan on top. . .Granted my current high-end setups are geared at current testing software. I am one of the people who has Skulltrail hardware and also has TR-SLI 280s so I am not just a bling builder . . .and I also have a highly modded phase unit with R507 and evap head from one of XS's legends.

Could be my over-clocking leaves something to be desired

[phelan1777]

Is your issue my use of the word all vs some? if so, then I used the wrong word. SOME people here said this and that, not ALL sorry, I get a little emotional at times. Steele Magnolias is on TV and I am trying not to cry. I better not post while Fried Green Tomatoes is on . . .sheesh.

Dude if a block out performs a DD block by 10-15 c I will switch although it will not be a month before that have a block that performs as well once they hear about the other product.

I think that benefits as the customer though us as we want to pay less for more.

Since you have met the DD guys you know they are down to Earth guys (as I am sure Eddy and Gabe are) who just want to make a good product and keep their customers happy. You also know the environment here has not always been accepting of anyone but vendor X or Y at a given time even with no solid basis for that. It has not been for reasons like price either. There were rabid attitudes from people who probably did not even have the product in hand (hope you guys do not make me search out posts from over a year ago and start up a long-buried crap storm over this).

Ah damn..........I was hoping you would have to go digging.

Have fun @ CES and help Keep Dave in line?

[DarthBeavis]

I think that benefits as the customer though us as we want to pay less for more.
Ah damn..........I was hoping you would have to go digging.

Have fun @ CES and help Keep Dave in line?

Keep me entertained with ur avatars You are one lucky man if what I think is true.

[voigts]

Darthbeavis, you have got to have the best job on the world. How did you get so lucky as to have a job building show rigs all of the time? That would sure beat my job hands down.

One thing to consider for instance among waterblocks is that any performance gains at this point are nickles and dimes at best. When you can get a Fuzion v2 or a Swiftech GTZ that perform neck and neck for about the same price, then aesthetics and build come more into play.

Up until 2 weeks ago I was using a Fuzion v1. I just upgraded my system, and decided to change over to a GTZ for one reason. I got tired of fighting with barbs and tubing since they are so close together on the Fuzion. The spacing of the barbs on the GTZ makes things so much easier. I think the GTZ is a better looking block, but are my temps going to be any different than if I stuck with the Fuzion v1? If any at all, not enough in my mind to justify the $40 or so out of pocket to change blocks. With performance being so close, manufacturers have to focus more on bling and looks to give their products the edge in sales.

[migueld]

With performance being so close, manufacturers have to focus more on bling and looks to give their products the edge in sales.

And I would also say that it's not just aesthetics but things like ease of use, compression-fittings friendliness, price, how universal it is, pressure drops... So I think we've reached a point, at least in CPU waterblocks, where those factors are becoming more relevant than before.

[MrBean]

I think I wanna waterrcool my underwear!

I do that every time my wife catches me spending another few hundreds on computer gear

[andersson.j]

I enjoy looking at todays pretty rigs with more $$ invested in fittings and sleeving than I've spent on my whole rig. (Well not really, but close!)

But I also miss the old XS. Back then many of us were doing some small scale testing. Every other thread was about testing methodology and you always learned something new each visit. I miss the ProCooling days...

[Jochenp]

3/8" instead of 1/2" tubing = about 0.5-1°C diff
3-4 45/90° fittings = about 0.5°C diff
a cheaper cpublock = about 1-2°C diff
a cheaper radiator = about 2-3°C diff
lower speed fans = about 2-3°C diff
coloured dye or some of that "non-conductive"-liquid = about 0.5°C diff
silent, weaker pump = about 0.5-1°C diff
TOTAL = 7-11°C difference
All the small things add up, fast.
If you are the guy to use 90° fittings, you also are the guy to prefer silent fans, and the guy who adds dye to his water. These three things alone add up to a 3-4°C diff. With an idle temperature of 30°C, that's 10%.

[MrBean]

If you are the guy to use 90° fittings, you also are the guy to prefer silent fans, and the guy who adds dye to his water. These three things alone add up to a 3-4°C diff. With an idle temperature of 30°C, that's 10%

You're generalizing. I prefer silent fans. I have a feser 480. No dye. No 90-deg fittings.

But, the point is, that 10% will not even yield 1% extra overclocking capacity. Something like the point of diminishing return.

You can get an average watercooling setup, say, hypothetically speaking, at $200. You can spend another $200 ontop of that to have 5 deg C better temps. Rather use a chiller then for that money to realize much better potential.

[Jochenp]

1% extra overclocking is 2-3 mhz. I think you could gain 2-3mhz with 3°C lower temps
By the way, of everything I listed there, silent fans makes the most difference (depending on what kind of rad). I was OVERgeneralizing, but my point is that the small things add up and make the difference between a good and a great watercooling rig. I think the majority of our LC-crowd isn't too obsessed with how much they'll gain in overclocking when switching between watercooling components. LC is a hobby, you want to improve your loop just for the fun of it. Gaining 5°C can be a lot of fun.

[MrBean]

Point taken

Problem is, in Melbourne Australia, we can have 4 seasons in one day So, ambient plays a huge role, nullifying our efforts. It can be 12 deg C one day, and a hot 43 deg C the next. Ask the guys that live here.....it's a huge challenge.

[DarthBeavis]

Darthbeavis, you have got to have the best job on the world. How did you get so lucky as to have a job building show rigs all of the time? That would sure beat my job hands down.

Still trying to figure that out myself.

I want to echo the sentiment about the compression fittings. Sure, I like the way they look, but more than that I love their utility. I was using 1/2 Fat boys with 3/8 tubing so I did not have to use ugly worm drives. The only problem was getting the tubing off the barbs. Compression fittings have made life so much easier in this regard. They are the most reliable barb on the market that I have used.

[shazza]

Got to agree about compression fittings. I like them because I've found it much easier to get tubing on and off, yet still secure it. Makes it very easy to redo loops.

(pssst ... DarthBeavis - aren't you supposed to be finishing up a build for an upcoming deadline?)

[DarthBeavis]

Got to agree about compression fittings. I like them because I've found it much easier to get tubing on and off, yet still secure it. Makes it very easy to redo loops.

(pssst ... DarthBeavis - aren't you supposed to be finishing up a build for an upcoming deadline?)

Just got back from UPS store. They are custom building a box for it. Off to get the dremel now I love the smell of burning acrylic in the morning.

[Eternalightwith]

damned Jager is right. It'll get you everytime.

you think that is bad? you should see my trying to get my jeans on everyday

[JOCKTHEGLIDE]

The only POS rig out there is the one that doesn't meet the requirements of the one who built it.

QUOTE OF THE YEAR RIGHT THERE........