http://www.swiftnets.com/
interesting :D
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http://www.swiftnets.com/
interesting :D
If I interpreted correctly, the only thing we get is that housing - like them guys of Swiftech think that anyone
sane uses MCP's with their stock top. On the other hand, the comparison with some state of the art tops
available is the thing I'd love to see.
Plus, with this improvements, it's head pressure is still inferior to that of DDC 3.25 at least according to the test WL did.
So more or less the improvements are of the cosmetic nature rather than performance oriented?
There were some posts related to it in this thread. But yes, interesting and promising pump.
Erklat: this swiftech top still is better then one for original Laing DDC 3.1/3.2 (for MCP350/355 pumps). And this pump is SILENT/you can feed it from motherboard (due to PWM). :) At 50% power it performs almost as good as D5@speed5.
What would happen to pump if I'd combine the wires via molex to feed it with 7v for example?
You don't need to do the 7V trick because you can connect it to your MoBo and control it via the CPU PWM fan header.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erklat
...and sorry, but I don't think I'm paying $110 for a pump.
Waterlogged: For apples to apples comparison imho one has to add up to price of MCP355 some third party top, and only then price difference for this PWM variety should be judged as worth to pay or not.
Don't MCP350/355 also have PWM header allowing them to be controlled? I asked theoretically about 7v trick. But in practice wires aren't so full of
crap where bioses are :D
Yeah, it's expensive as hell. So in the end we will all be waiting to see how this top compares to the others :p:
True but, if the new PCB models can be converted to be PWM, I can get a 350 from Newegg for $60, do the mod and toss any of the 6-8 tops I have laying around or leave it stock (I've been know to do it ;)).Quote:
Originally Posted by churchy
No, they only have the 2 power wires and a RPM sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erklat
Standart DDC pumps have normal analogue power from 2 wires from 4pin molex + 3pin molex with one wire for rpm / tach monitoring. In one variety (koolance PMP-400) those two for power and rpms are united in single 3pin molex. There is one place to solder wire at rumoured to be for pwm, but noone has proved possibility of such mod yet and i'm guessing it's not in business interest of swiftech for Gabe to confirm that possibility as true or not.
It costs more than what I paid for a MCP355 + XSPC res top. I think I can get more out of that combo than 35x
And what if you add to price of 355+top price of some rheostat/controller aswell? :)
Veterans of LC like Waterlogged aside, for LC first timers without big set of LC parts in stash from old builds arround, pricing for these pumps imho is reasonable. Of course, i hope for someone to prove possibility of PWM mod soon :)
i wonder if this thing grinds less...
if you guys liked the gt fans.....you'll certainly want to quiet down your pumps ...:D
gabe where and when can we order this?
If you are buying a rheobus, you are not using it just for the pump, so it's not really fair to factor it's cost into the total cost of the pumpQuote:
Originally Posted by churchy
How would the DD DDC 3.25 pump compare to the new one? Is there a review out there comparing a 3.25 to a 3.2?
I'm looking to snag 2 pumps NOW for a EK dual pump top.
Is a 3.25 much louder then a 3.2? Could one lower the voltage to a 3.25 if need be?
Or should i just snag 2 3.2 pumps?
Hanging pumps with elastic shoelaces work wonders for quieting them down :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondacity
This is this is the only direct comparison I'm aware of. The data does leave a little to be desired but, I did the best I could with the resources I had at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by eclypse
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=245795
skinnee is working on a more thorough test ATM.
Since WL stated that old types have only rpm sense, you're left only with wire tricks. ;)
I'd get 3.25. I doubt they are noisy. It boils down to whether you are sensitive to the high frequency pitch they produce which
might get emphasized with the dual top. Each pump with dedicated top provided like quieter solution. There was this bloke from
Luxembourg who stated he ain't going to dual tops anymore back in December.
So as I see it:
pros: PWM controllable thus potentially quieter, custom top is no longer a 'must'
cons: no real performance improvements, absolutely ridiculous price, there is a chance custom tops will still be better.
Many people have noted that most of pump noise can be quietened down by doing two things - dumpening vibrations with something like shoggy sandwitch or petras gel stuff (not too aplicable for pumptops integrated into bay res) and to prevent extra noise from air bubbles hitting impeller by completely bleeding from air loop (sometimes it's not done completely and sometimes big flow might reintroduce bubbles via whirl in reservoir, so some extra steps/countermeasures might be needed, eg. turning rad upside down to get air bubble out, or putting some antiwhirl inserts in reservoir, and/or topping water level in reservoir). Some noise might stay anyway, and of course 3.25 is noisiest one DDC as it's most powerful (maybe apart from DDC2).
Thanks for the read! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterlogged
Now to figure out if i wana grab me 2 3.25 pumps or wait a week+ for the new 35X model. Was told by a reseller that they hope to get there order in a week.
Unless you are trying to spit $220 + top price, 3.25's for sure.
Thanks for the info.. Yeah i always make sure to bleed out the air. Its always comical to tip a huge MM case on end to end to get all the air bubbles out! hehe. Its gona be even funnier with my new MM Extension Ascension case. :D Damn forgot my old former case mod made out of lubic that was about 4 feet tall. That was a real chuckle tipping all over the place to get the air bubles all out. hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by churchy
Nice, did you post some picture on how to do this earlier? I'd like to try that..:clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterlogged
I'm curious to see what the vendors price these at...MSRP vs vendor prices vary quite a bit sometimes.
u will fry your psu, seeing how the psu has no real 7v rail, and needs to mickey mouse the ground with voltage for 7v.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erklat
:rolleyes:
Ok..I think I get what needs to be done to mod one...pictures skinnee posted explain it:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...2&postcount=46
i didnt think that there would be a problem with that as the higher voltage flows to the lower one, and it will always flow like that unless there is a diode or something else to restrict the current to flowing from 5v to any other lower voltage, it doesn't matter whether the lower voltage is 0v or any other number below 12v, the current will still flow from +ve to -ve.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
Anybody want a couple of D5 plus Koolance top and res's ............. wife's gonna kill me i mean really ..... i just bought em they haven't even arrived yet well at least the tops. But the m35x was made for exactly what I want. Save me the trouble of but fan/pump auto controller i can live with manual fc-2 for the fans and MB pwm for the pumps .
Soon as these are available I want. My MM sitting here waiting for parts.
Now to Do 2 triple quad loops , a dual top 6 quad rad loop or Double in series 6x quad rad loop ...
Seriously though , Gabe ? any ETA to retailers on these I'm willing to eat the return fee on my koolance gear .
I tell you what: call Michelle, and she'll get you one today!Quote:
Originally Posted by MagisD
Im in the same boat as i want to do 2 loops, one for the CPU,MB and 3 480GTX blocks using 2x DDC pumps and another loop going through 2x ThermolChill PA 120.3 and a HLabs 480GTX rad using a dual pump as well. Just put together my HUGE black Extension Ascension with Horizon MB tray today and just wanting to order pumps/tops and some fitting and its rock and roll time! Black and red theme all around.. cant wait to show it off heh.
multi loops thread FYIQuote:
Originally Posted by eclypse
I've seen the graphs on flow rate / pressure... my question is:
In terms of real-world performance, how does this all translate?
For a single loop (320 rad, CPU block, GPU block), how would measurable performance (idle/load temperatures) differ between this new pump and a D5 vario at 5 setting? If I had a D5 and could sell it for a reasonable price, would it be worth the switch?
You just wana Show em off .. hehe i'm cool with that calling now.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
I like Michelle she sounds nice ... can i Order 2 ;-) ?
The impact will vary depending on the water-block that you use (You didn't specify).Quote:
Originally Posted by sn0man
please also read this, it will give you a good idea of the actual impact of flow rates on system performance.
she is the best :D told her to give you a little token of appreciation too, but you called before I could tell her that, so she didn't mention anything when you called.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagisD
She got me to e-mail her so ya can still throw it in LOL . :woot:
But I like the breakdown you did on single vs dual loops and except for pump redundancy , I think Over killed the Rad vs head load in my machine hehehehe.
But thanks a Lot .. i'll end up putting em on the card the wife Doesn't know about and tell her I'm reviewing them ;:rofl:
MCR320 rad, EK Supreme HF, and DD GTX 480. The blocks themselves are pretty non-restrictive as far as other competing products go.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
From the review you wrote/posted, it seems as though increased flow in non-restrictive blocks won't account for much of a change. How much benefit (if any) might someone be likely to see from the increased pressure moving from a D5 to the MCP35X then?
Indeed, she is :yepp:Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
I recall having sent a thank you card to her a few years ago when she came back from one of her vacations... thanking her for coming back. :p:
For me Its the Insane amount of tubing i have to run ;-) approximately 18 feet .Quote:
From the review you wrote/posted, it seems as though increased flow in non-restrictive blocks won't account for much of a change. How much benefit (if any) might someone be likely to see from the increased pressure moving from a D5 to the MCP35X then?
I originally bought 25 feet and used most of it but after buying the new case a month later i bought another 20 feet. Doubt ill need that much. hehe.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagisD
You could use Vapor's testing here to give you a rough idea. A single D5 was medium pumping power and two DDCs in series was high. Since you're going from D5 to DDC, you actually have less heat dump, so you can pretty much ignore the heat dump effects (which this chart does). You won't quite be going D5 to 2XDDC flow gains, but somewhere in between since the MCP35X is stronger than the DDC3.2.Quote:
Originally Posted by sn0man
http://skinneelabs.com/assets/images...sults25WEP.png
I plan on doing a dual pump loop going threw all the blocks and a seperate loop going threw all the rads.. both loops share the same huge res so what i have is good flow threw the blocks and awesome flow through the rads since rads perform better with high flow. The water is shared through the same res. So its like a single loop but better flow through out.
:Whoot: :eleph: :whoot:
Order placed 2x pumps and res's
Guess i'll be ordering those 2 Danger Den DDC 3.25 pumps since i cant wait another week or 2 before they get into the retail chain.
Alright so help the newb.. what is the advantage of this over a mcp355 with a top?
I've been waiting on these... Hmmmm, $110...
@gabe
What happened to swiftech pricing. Rad prices have been creeping upwards also I think. The primary reason why I personally regard you guys the best. It's the amazing value or price/perf.
Also, for the res top, is it one size only?
Don't pout, you can call Michelle too you know ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by eclypse
Nothing really. Pump prices went up late last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by meanmoe
Rad prices have not gone up since early 2009.
The MCP35X price is inline with other custom top solutions out there. It's a CNC machined top instead of a high volume injection molded part. Cost is ten fold higher.
Maybe I don't keep up with time well. I just remember buying a mcr220 for $35 and then bought another 2 for $45 not long after. I have more of your radiators, but don't remember price shifts.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
Quality is of course always appreciated. What about different sizes for the tube?Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
oh, and I'm certainly I'm not complaining - I was also leaning towards a Koolance solution for a build I have planned for early O.ctober, but now I'm debating on calling Michelle myself ;)
I really need a larger tube though for the way it's currently planned. plans can always be changed though - the pwm control is hard to pass up.
MCP35X eh. Maybe I'll get one when my Swify MCP355 v3.2 dies. -25C for 3 hours and she is still pumping. One strong little pump ain't she, top quality... :yepp:
http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/r...r/DSC02899.jpg
http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/r...r/DSC02886.jpg
OCM :up:
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the mod actually works, I couldn't really say. I don't know of anybody that's actually done it yet. skinnee has said he'll do it when he's done testing but I'm getting the itch bad enough to try it myself. If it doesn't work and damages the pump though, it'd be a noticable financial hit to me, and I'm not sure I want to burn $55 for the name of science, that's the only thing really stopping me or I would have done it when I did my testing. I also don't like that sickly feeling when hardware gets torched and I'm to blame, it's a very unpleasant feeling. :sick:Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
oc maximus i hope you did some conformal coating on that pump pcb....
;).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondacity
Ill try it for science:) If I fry it, that my fault...anyone with a soldering iron in hand better darn well accept the risks involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterlogged
I'm just not sure which pumps are ddc 3.15s for cheap, I only have 3.2s sitting here...actually one is a modded apogee drive 3.1 to a 3.2 with top..:D
I am not sure why this pump is considered expensive.
Newegg sells the MCP355 for $65 in other word they sell the swiftech pump for about $20 less than MSRP. Then you compare this 65 bucks to the MCP3X MSRP, it doesn't make sense. I am sure that once Newegg starts selling the MCP35X it won't be at $110, anyone wanna bet? =D
if you look at the pumps MSRP which you should (since right now the actual price for the MCP35X is unknown yet) you see that:
- MCP355 MSRP: $84 (swiftech) - DDC 3.2 $82 (dangerden)
- DDC 3.25 $90 (dangerden)
- MCP35X MSRP: $110 (swiftech)
Tops: (actual price from sidewinder)
- XSPC: $26 no fittings
- EK: $25 no fittings
bottom line,
MCP355 + top: $109 or $110 and that's without fittings, think the MCP35x includes fittings
DDC3.2 + top: $107 or $108 no fittings
DDC3.25 + top: $115 or $116 no fittings
MCP35X: $110, includes a pair of fittings, ddc 3.25 and PWM adjustment.
it seems like a pretty good deal to me as is: cheaper than combining a 3.25 from dangerden and a top from EK or XSPC, plus you get the PWM adjustment. Check back in a week or 2 what newegg sells it for (likely $90 or less) and you got a winner imo. and it kinda looks nice too.
hehe ya but I got overexcited and hopefully there shipping out today ( thanks Gabe and Michelle ) ...... Now i have to Rma my koolance tops and find somebody to buy some d5's bought swiftech 655's from Ncix .. there non-returnable there LOL , Or go completely insane and add them to my case.
My wife calls me a horrible impulse shopper .. and I am... and with a water cooling addiction I think I need to get a second job, I've dropped 4-5k in the last week since I confirmed my case passed customs.
But its a fitting i have no desire to use, same with the top, looking at it now the price just isn't justified.Quote:
Originally Posted by zytrahus
the price is ok imo. 55$pump + 15$pwm upgrade + 30$ top + 10$swiftechlogo .....
I'd have to agree with some of you. It's a great quality pump, the top is basically included, fittings included and it has PWM.. You get all that in one order and only pay shipping once..
Heck of a good deal. I'll be putting one in my next build for sure!
gabe
is the impeller from the 3.2 or 3.25?
I'd prefer it cheaper with stock laing top aswell, simply because i intend to use with double pump top that swiftech doesn't make. BTW, which smart pump/fan controllers can control pump via PWM?
3.25 - Everything on the 35X is 3.25. The only differences are the PWM wire is actually there and the Swiftech top.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondacity
ah nice..thanks
82$pump(ddc3.25) + $pwm upgrade + 30$ top
i think the price is justified....
Actually, I broke down last night and did the mod. . .and just my luck, I grabbed my Zotac 9300-ITX and wouldn't you know it, it has crap all for PWN control. :shakes: I need to grab one of the other boards I have and try again. Anybody know how the PWM is on the DFI P45JR? I one still in the box for another build but I'd like to leave it factory packed until I'm actually ready to use it but, if it has good PWM, I don't mind cracking it open.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
well i heard it can introduce noise to the 5V rail.Quote:
Originally Posted by TRICHEESE
Since the 5V and 12V are independant off each other, when you mix to the 2 to get 7V, i heard thats not great on a psu under load conditions.
some psus are actually ok with cross loads...so its fineQuote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
Only Alphacool heatmaster can provide high frequency PWM control over pumps or highamp fans.Quote:
Originally Posted by churchy
Can anyone validate this?Quote:
Originally Posted by SpuTnicK
Gabe is running them off of Mobo headers right?
This doesn't make sense to me. I have two DDC+ with petra's top and my 1450 rpm GT's are louder then the pump...Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondacity
That said I can not hear the pumps at all once the loop is bled. I have to touch them to make sure they are even running!
Depends on the system and the loading and the PSU design.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
Rails may be independent but they feed off the same mains supply. What actually happens is the current flows from 12v through the devices down 5v through some 5v device and then to 0v (ground). If you do not have enough 5v power draw in the system then you can run into problems. I did with some panaflo's that I was trying to do a 7v/12v mod with. When I would switch to 7v (or 7v o 12v) sometimes the PSU would shut off and other times the system would hang or go black. After adding some more 5v draw elsewhere the issue went away. It was only the act of switching. Now with lower power fans (gentle typhoons) I have no issues with this.
That where there suppose to be hooked up but there split , powers a 4 pin large molex , with what looks like in the pics of the rpm and control wires head to board on a 4pin fan header. I was following this today so, I'm either gonna have to buy a pwn splitter or Just Splice one control wire to run both off 1 header. Since there not drawing power through MB should be fine.
I think that's just if you wanted a PWM controller. The pumps are setup with a PWM plug with the blue/green wires AND a standard 12V Molex plug. You should be able to control this fine with a MB header from what I've gathered. The molex feeds the power and the 4pin fan header plug does the speed control work. No yellow/black on the fan header, those are left empty.Quote:
Originally Posted by meanmoe
Here is a picture skinnee posted earlier on the rad/res/pump kit which shows the wires/plugs:
http://skinneelabs.com/assets/images...rodshot-02.jpg
:yepp:Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
Validation:)Quote:
Originally Posted by meanmoe
I had though alphacool went under or so i read , but just checked and there pages are up . so cool are they still supporting the software on the heat master ?
Heatmaster is no-no for me because it's discontinued product. I don't want to have controller without software updates for eg. next windows version. Same reasoning why i don't consider BigNG purchase. So it boils down to TMS-200 & Aquaero. IIRC both of them are controlling pumps via analog only though.
I've got 2 DD DDC 3.25 pumps headed to me.. So these can be modded so i can adjust the voltage if needed like the 35X pumps? I doubt i'd want to but just encase i cant stand the noise.
Next windows version, you got to be kidding, right? :rofl: No offence, reallyQuote:
Originally Posted by churchy
Win7 will last as far as XP does, imho. And by that time everything will change. No offense, really.
Heatmaster software is almost "BUGless. bugs found are fixed by enthusiasts. more on that here
Google translation of that forum .. is lets say a little off..........:rofl:
Ok, so I found another board I had laying around that has better PWM control than the Zotac and I've got what I think may be bad news. The mod doesn't work. It's entirely possible I may be screwing something up but, I'm pretty certain I did it right. The MoBo I used was a Foxconn 661GX7MJ-H which I downloaded the manual for, just to be on the safe side, so I could check it's CPU fan connector pinout. I "borrowed" a 4 pin PWM harness from a stock Intel cooler (who says they're useless? :p:) and soldered it on to the pump PCB making sure blue was on blue and green to the empty slot. I also switched the green and blue in the connector so that the blue was sense and green was control according to the MoBo manual. To make sure the PWM was actually working on the board, I used another stock Intel heat sink and artificially raised the temps (unplugged pump) and watched as both the CPU temp and fan RPM's go up to 50°C before plugging it back in. I tested this with both a 3.1 and a 3.25 and got the same results for both.:(
I really hope I did something wrong because it'd be a shame to have yet another version of the DDC running around to keep track of. :rolleyes:
Someone please double check this.
Bummer, I figured it would be easy like the 3.15 to 3.25 or 3.1 to 3.2 mods, but it doesn't sound like it. Sounding more like the D5 basic to D5 vario mod which I don't think anyone figured out yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterlogged
Cudos for trying it out..:clap:
Martin: well, at least it's known that Vario can be moded for rpm tach monitoring D5 basic alike (i never could understand why Laing decided to skimp that feature in higher priced pump)
Also .. maybe it's worth to contact laing? I'm guessing that it was laing that decided to add pwmness to DDC lineup, so maybe there will be DDC 3.2X pumps by other vendors in future with stock top?
Good idea, let me know what you find out..:)Quote:
Originally Posted by churchy
I don't get it :shakes: Ppl all over the place tell us that using the stock top is anathema. So we give you a custom top that has all the desired features , and you're now asking for a stock top :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by churchy
lol gabe... aint it the truth.
Just can't please everyone!
Buyers, me included, like the ability to purchase products to their own preference.
I need only the pump and pwm (eg. I don't need it either). I don't want the top and the fittings
since I prefer EK's or petras or XSPCs or duals, triples, whatever, and this way I(we) pay for the top and fittings
many of those who buy it are going to scramble anyways.
Lets wait 'till we see retail pricing. So, basically this is 3.25 and not MCP355?
Yeah options are always good. A cheaper stripped down option with PWM would entice quite a few.
Im good still with my DDC2.0 and petra's though. Going 3 years strong!
In other words, you INSIST on loosing your warranty, am I correct?Quote:
Originally Posted by Erklat
Hmm... interesting.
Parts number: this is an MCP35X.
Warranties, the unspoken truths......
MCP35X seems like it should meet and exceed most of our needs. We just can't help tinkering with stuff though :)
OCM :up:
Wait, you mean to tell me all these parts come with a warranty?. . .:shocked::rofl:
Heheheeheheheheheeheheheeheheeheheehe..... I'm all ready looking for a bit to drill into the res's hes sending me, Why it doesn't have a top mounted Fill/bleeding g1/4 is beyond me. I know the whole top is the cap .. but what about case mounted fill/bleed lines ?
So depending on what the cap is made of I'll tap a G1/4 in there
Do the retail bought pumps have seal?
Because if they don't, it seems like Laing is okay with us putting custom tops, they know it is happening all the time, and
yet they are issuing a warranty with every pump sold.
There's no way that this should come as any sort of surprise... this is XS after all. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
What's a warranty? :shrug:
You might want to double-check your vendor policy in this respect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erklat
Gabe: I never claimed 35X with your custom top is bad. Just that i'm among those rare that wish to use dual top, so of course option to save on both pump price is nice for cheap bastards like me :). Simply ignore that, people will always whine :D
Dual top & PWM's will require to have two PWM connectors on MOBO, so understanding this caveat, use of dual top & pwm swould be fine. We are considering making a dual pump.Quote:
Originally Posted by churchy
gabe: don't know if it makes much business sense in making dual pumps of your own .. afterall, they are bougth way less often then single pump, and there are already many alternatives by competitors out there, eg. by EK/XSPC/BP and new ones by DD. +you can add mirriads of bayreservoirs with 1-2 pumps (often seen in many LC builds, mostly by XSPC), also candidates for throwing out perfectly good top of yours, and whine about price :)
Be it performancy or redundancy or more compact mount of dual tops or user wants compact bayreservoirs with pumptops, or some aesthetic reasoning on particular vendor for extra bling pumptop choice .. there are still many out there that wish something different then just good standalone pump, so imho it would make more sense to release for a cheap pump without any top at all and with greatily lessened (or without any warranty at all), if you don't want to see RMAs caused by 3rd party tops, then trying to release your own products in each and every area / variety.
PWM is good feature, really. Your top performs also very well. But for those not caring for warranty and set on using some other top .. while they might like to buy new PWM pump, most probably they'll get older/cheaper analogue pumps of yours. Top aside in current product packaging pwm feature alone happens to be a bit on the expensive side, possibly taking these pumps out of consideration in some builds.
As far I know as long as its just the control wire your fine spliceing it in. Need seperate power and can only read one rpm but works with pwm fans.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
Sent from my X10a using Tapatalk
How about using the second inlet???Quote:
Originally Posted by MagisD
No easy fill/bleeding the second inlet is too low. Afterward I'd have to go into the case and remove the cap of the res to bleed the air, I'm pretty sure if I had extra fluid in the fill line and took off the cap the pressure would make it pour out the top if there was enough fluid. Defeating the whole purpose of a case mounted fill line for easy top ups.
And I want a pressure value on my res's I know its not proven but I still believe expansion pressure is the cause of most acrylic cracks.
Besides if I put a line to the second inlet where am I gonna put my Super bright white led for lighting up my res ?
I see.. ok, we'll look into that for further revisions then.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagisD