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http://www.semiaccurate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=762
damn! :mad:
texture filtering is supposed to be 100% angle independant now, but the biggest problem... textures still flicker... :stick: god! cut the damn optimizations already! nobody wants hundreds of fps with flickering textures! :mad:
8aa perf has been imrpoved notably as well in 5xxx, i really hope it didnt happen at the cost of image quality! :/
http://www.semiaccurate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=750
None spoke of that after the demo day when games run in 3 screens, etc..
if it was present people would have noticed.
its not an issue.
not good enough...Quote:
Originally Posted by flopper
almost nobody talks about texture filtering on current cards either and its there and really annoying...
and its not exactly what you do on a launch event... point out problems and be a party pooper... :D
Yeah. I hate this so much, especially in crysis and mirror's edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by saaya
Everybody either doesn't notice or ignores it. It drives me nuts in large open spaces and you see some little flickering things in the background.
:down::down::down:
never ever ever noticed anything like this lol
Only really noticed this is older games with my card but it didn't bother me... In newer games such as Crysis, HawX Fallout 3 etc. nothing
@saaya were you lurking around in semiaccurate forums the whole day :P
Hope that's not really true.
in this period a lot of money run in more (web-people) pockets :DQuote:
Originally Posted by zalbard
Not even close.Quote:
Originally Posted by zalbard
The source from that news clip came from Konkort over at B3d who, to put it nicely, doesn't completely understand the discussion.
The actual source is people who have the card and asked a software maker, he created a filter test, on how to use his program. After explaining how to use it he conversed a little more with them and supposedly confirmed that textures still flicker due to under-sampling...
This guy came out of nowhere and no-one can verify his claims, so this is still unconfirmed.
Don't know why this is news and why it isn't posted in the 5xxx thread...
Well we shall find out soon enough right?
all day lol, no, only 30mins or so :PQuote:
Originally Posted by ajaidev
semiaccurate = FUDzilla = the_INQ = BS;
I think u mean BSN :ROTF:Quote:
Originally Posted by gOJDO
i more and more get the impression saaya has become some sort of desperate sensationalist :D;)Quote:
Originally Posted by LordEC911
saaya, wait just a few more hours and you can finally see what the 5800 series is about :up:
(no offence intended, just messin around ;))
+1 :yepp:Quote:
Originally Posted by RaZz!
I usually skip over Saaya posts now, but had to see where he was coming from with this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradan
Fallout 3 does the same thing. It is annoying as heck.
In all seriousness, flickering isn't a problem I've noticed. When I'm playing games, I think I'm pretty insensitive to most visual things we've had past and present such as:
- Ghosting on LCDs back when I used an 8/16ms panel
- This "flickering" thing
- "Microstutter" in crossfire
About the only things that I notice are:
- Frame tears [very occasionally] when vsync is off
- Too low of frame rate
- Texture detail [in context of developer decision, not card processing]
- [Many] years ago when for a while edges of triangles weren't done properly and there would be thin white gaps between polys at the edges. It was a driver thing that has seemingly since been solved.
if somebody who knows enough about texture filtering to write an app that tests it says it flickers, i tend to believe him... he might exaggerate and its not that visible... but if that guy says its there, im pretty sure its there...Quote:
Originally Posted by LordEC911
and yeah, i wanted to post this in the 5xxx thread but... where is it? :D
i didnt make this up, i just read it on sa and posted a link here :PQuote:
Originally Posted by RaZz!
oh yeah the launch is soon, right? the paper launch at least...Quote:
Originally Posted by RaZz!
particle, you never noticed micro stuttering when 2 cards get out of sync? at some points its far from MICRO stuttering, in far cry2 its close to unplayable at times, it feels like the main character is having a seizure or something and is shaking like crazy :D
Here it is -----> http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...wpost&t=233621Quote:
Originally Posted by saaya
Same thing? :ROTF:Quote:
Originally Posted by ajaidev
Saaya the new fudzilla in xtreme forum?
Its like stating, Nvidia cards broke down due to bad cheap parts, and Apple now dont want any nvidia parts due to Apple use quality.
Cant buy Nvidia then.
its a none issue.
If it is, you be hearing from people all around.
Internet is kinda small place.
I still think it is a valid argument no matter what the source is. With the power of today's GPUs versus the requirements for currently and even upcoming games, downsampling should have been put to bed. People can go on and on about a card's AA capabilities and anisotropic filtering, but (IMO) all that is for nothing if there are issues with the textures themselves.
I've noticed the issue in nearly every game I've played over the past year.
Fallout 3: Rocks in the Capital Wasteland and the Washington monument are the worst
HawX: Buildings in some levels
Company of Heroes: Rubble and some infantry weapons on the night levels
I could go on and on. However, there are some games that I haven't noticed it in. Batman, Dawn of War II and Call of Duty: WaW don't seem to have any problems that I have seen.
^^ThisQuote:
Originally Posted by LordEC911
When asked to show proof of his statement he couldn't provide it and said that he was told that was the problem by someone else. All this after he chimed in. So I would wait and see 1st instead of fueling what looks like fud so far.
yes, whats the point in being able to run 8aa 16af with max details at huge resolutions if the textures flicker and are blurry...Quote:
Originally Posted by SKYMTL
batman is based on UT3, and yes, its hard to see it in there, and actually its even dificult to see aliasing in ut3 based games, cause they used polygones in a very smart way... the geometry they avoid using sharp edges and certain angles... pretty smart :)
hmmm so its a case of he said she said then...Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastcoasthandle
well thx for the headsup... nobody would be more happy to hear its not true than me, trust me :D
the day a new card comes out that has no texture flickering at all and notably improved texture sampling, possibly even UPsampling like in video and texture apps, id upgrade immediatly...
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure other people have experienced it. I just personally haven't yet had that kind of thing happen, even on Far Cry 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by saaya
if i play fc2 at 1920x1080 4xx 16af in sli and quickload to load another savepoint every 1/10 there is some notable flickering that slowly dissapears within a few seconds as soon as i move and look around .Quote:
Originally Posted by Particle
every 1/50 times it flickers really bad and the whole game stutters really bad and it doesnt go away for a minute or so...
I get the same on a GTX 295 at 1920 x 1200.Quote:
Originally Posted by saaya
^^ Well, SLI isn't exactly Crossfire, is it?
Surely unreleased hardware with beta drivers won't have any bugs. Also when people talk about rendering issues in Fallout 3 you should probably take into account that the game engine is a buggy trainwreck that shouldn't be blamed on hardware vendors. Lets stick to blaming AMD for real issues like world hunger and swine flu!
actually, it pretty much is :PQuote:
Originally Posted by blindbox
and winkle, fa3 is just one example...
This is about as valid as "microstutter"
id think with all these power in a single card, they can sacrifice a little framerate to give unbelievable eye candy. or add a new option on CCC to let you decide which you prefer, i dont see it being too hard.
Then we're doomed.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaredpace
We need an "Xtreme Speculation" forum.
Also, Saaya is better than FUd by a factor of 5, whoever suggested that.
Maybe I'm blind, but I've never seen any flickering in any game with my HD4870 :shrug:
They don't because they know reviewers will turn off the optimizations when reviewing...Quote:
Originally Posted by Manicdan
I've seen it playing crysis on my 4850... It was one of the first things I noticed as crysis was the first game I played once I got the card.Quote:
Originally Posted by FischOderAal
flickering i see only in GRID and microstuttering i have only ever seen in Flatout: ultimate carnage
what does me linking to and talking about news articles have to do with fudo writing news articles?Quote:
Originally Posted by MirageSys
It took me quite a bit of time to detect the proverbial texture flickering in Crysis (SP demo) using my 4890. Can't see how that's a huge issue. The flickering happens only within a couple dozen pixel narrow band quite far away in the FOV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flopper
Quote:
Originally Posted by saaya
That's about it really. I was just saying your great compared to fud (because your not the source)
you're <> your ;)
and I don't even speak English :p
Seconded.Quote:
Originally Posted by largon
O'well, I guess it ruins the experience. Like if there was flickering walls in a movie, "Omg not real!". The same people who whine about small things like this, probably whine about the small inlogical issues in movies. "Omg flew 2 meters when shot with shotgun, not realistic, complete garbage!".
it's the same with their <> there. it's misspelled very often as well, especially by people whose mother tongue actually is english :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by jmke
touché. Poor grammar on my part.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmke
I think you're missing the point...Quote:
Originally Posted by Calmatory
Don't get me wrong, I love my 4890 and believe that the flickering is tolerable. However, that's no excuse if it can be removed altogether.Quote:
Originally Posted by SKYMTL
I've been playing RE5 at my friend house and I haven't seen the flickering or z-fighting yet on that game and he has a similar system to my own. We both have the same video card xfx gts250 and his system so far hasn't shown any flickering so now I am more interested in getting RE5 lol.
How could capcom get it right and others can't? or is it a driver issue? Strange to me and before this I was thinking that maybe it's just nvidia sucks now but no even ati users get flickering.
no biggie, I make plenty of horrible mistakes everywhere :DQuote:
Originally Posted by MirageSys
I agree i mean my mum teaches english to degree levels and she constantly goes on at me for it I ALWAYS get it wrong without fail :ROTF:Quote:
Originally Posted by RaZz!
You do not "see" microstuttering. There's a reason it's called "micro" stuttering and not regular stuttering.Quote:
Originally Posted by oohms
Microstuttering makes the game appear that its running at about half the FPS. I've experienced it in my 8800 GT SLI setup, and it really sucked. FRAPS numbers showed crazy FPS but the game wasn't really smooth.
It was only when I timedemoed and saw exactly which frame was rendered at which microsecond; that I was able to understand why my gaming experience wasn't what I was seeing at FRAPS.
Basically, if you render 5 frames at the same exact time but fail to render another frame in the next 20 milliseconds, you'll appear to have 250 FPS but will feel 50 FPS.
annihilator - it is plainly visible in flatout ultimate carnage
Same for Crysis.Quote:
Originally Posted by STEvil
8800 GTS = Low FPS but it feels fairly smooth
3870X2 = Higher FPS but it feels like a nightmare
Although I'm sure newer cards are better about it.
I had 3870CF and 4870CF. There is BIG difference between the two in Crysis regarding micro sutter! Really HD4870CF was smooth while 3870CF was showing 25FPS+ and still game could be choppy ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sly Fox
http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,6...eviews/?page=5
there we are, its improved in 5xxx but its still there...
and its still worse than in gt200! :mad:
so they did not only NOT fix it, they didnt even get it done better than nvidia... sigh...
so nvidia doesnt have a reason to improve it and they wont... great...
Can be hopefully resolved via driver updates... :(Quote:
Originally Posted by saaya
The Hard|OCP
In the second screenshot we have enabled 16X AF. Once again we find the Radeon HD 5870 produces the best 16X AF out of the bunch. It is a perfect circle, with no dependencies on angles like the Radeon HD 4890. I would say ATI has succeeded in providing the absolute best filtering
quality in a gaming graphics card.
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/108...pekvjfn62l.png
mh, am i the only one who notices the pretty sharp-edged gradient in the grey area (respectively: there's no gradient at all)?
i don't know, but the gradient of the gtx285 in the grey area looks more appealing to me.
what's the way it's meant to be? i have no idea.
check the attachment for a quick comparison i did to illustrate what i mean:
i think ingame screenshots will be needed to determine whats really going on.
it could be ATI decided that those areas do not ever blend anyway, and designed it to ignore them completely.
I thought this was about the "flickering"
it seems the quality, flickering and performance all go together. to fix or perfect one, the other two may be sacrificed.
If you look at the 4980 shot there is even more detail in the grey area than the gtx285.Quote:
Originally Posted by RaZz!
im not sure what the picture should look like, it could be that solid gray is perfect, and the details show where blending isnt exact. i think seeing a screenshot of a tile floor or brick walls, or something with a pattern that we can recognize would help understand what is happening. or i just need to know more about the test and find where it says what should and shouldnt be seen
Quote:
Originally Posted by saaya
LOL, I hardly call that conclusive be it they think it's real or otherwise. I find it odd there is a lack of video showing what they are trying to claim. Coming from the same website that wanted to show video of what "they thought" was microstutter (I believe they've removed those videos). As the saying goes, the proof is in the pudding and I don't see any pudding.Quote:
...
What looks sharp on the pictures, flickers in motion...
Yeah IIRC that whole "microstuttering" thing was started by pcgh website. Although some games can't scale well from one to multi GPUs,I haven't seen this thing manifest in reality with neither 4870X2 nor GTX 260 SLI...
wowa..... good eye, I'm wondering what that is all about too....Quote:
Originally Posted by RaZz!
Sigh, it's not some mysterious urban legend made up by people just for kicks. All you need to do is bring up Fraps and record frame times to see it for yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by informal
With respect to AF quality, you cannot tell anything from static screenshots. The underfiltering can only be detected in motion. Those static shots show the level of angle dependence, not the level of filtering.
You want the gray area like that. That is why everyone is calling ATi's new angle independant AF algorithm near perfect, it doesn't get much better.Quote:
Originally Posted by kuhla
You can see why in that test, look on the top half, GTX285, between the "gray" area and the white/gray, you can see where it should be completely grey, there are small spots of white/gray. On the 5870 side that isn't present.
yes, is should all be an even grey, the more spots or lines or uneven scaling towards the center you can see, the worse the filtering...
and yes i wish pcgh would make some videos, they tried it some time ago, but not very high res and it was too short and blurry to see much...
someone should make a flash animation to describe the problem
Ask and you shall receive :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Manicdan
http://ht4u.net/reviews/2009/amd_ati...istory_state0=
There are three videos in the middle of the page 60MB each.
HD4890, HD5870 and GTX 275.
In each video they did a comparison between the AF hardware and the reference image. The reference image was generated using a shader so it's how things should look if the TMUs were not doing any optimizations.
You can clearly see under-filtering/shimmering on the ATI cards. Now let the conspiracy theories begin!
that's quite a let-down tbh. even though i recognize the texture shimmering only in older games where the surfaces are mostly flat etc (with a 4850 that is), i still hoped they'd finally abandon these issues. nothing can beat texture shimmering on the g70 though :p:
according to pcgh using supersampling aa solves the problem, mostly at least!
so we need to use ssaa, which doesnt work in newer games, and a third party tool to adjust lod to get rid of the texture flickering... not perfect, but if it works... hooray! :DQuote:
SSAA in games
In comparison to the internal Oversampling, which can be forced on Geforce graphics cards with the tool Nhancer, the texture LoD is not adjusted with Ati's SSAA. To put it bluntly this means that the amount of AF is not increased. With a third party application like the Ati Tray Tools you can adjust the LoD by hand in order to receive the best texture sharpness. For 2x SSAA we don't recommend any changes yet, but for 4x SSAA you should set the LoD to -1 and for 8x SSAA -2 or -3 are flicker free - depending on the texture content.