Xtreme Low Q6600 G0 Temp on Air !!! (Lots of Pics)

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Originally Posted by Spanki

But... here's the thing - if the new chips are actually 11C hotter than what's being shown currently - it doesn't matter - because they have 11C more headroom to work with (everything's relative).

- Since the G0 stepping 'generally' needs less voltage for a given overclock (YMMV), then they will 'generally' run cooler than B3 stepping. This means you can either run them cooler at the same overclock, or potentially higher overclock for the same temperature (by adding more voltage). Either way is a win (again, assuming you get a good chip).

- In addition to running cooler, they might (likely) also have that extra 11C of headroom to play with before overheating, along with a scaled fan setting (for anyone who uses PWM) to keep the system quieter at higher temps (the fans don't ramp up as early).

...having said that, if you already have a B3 that you're happy with, it might be difficult to justify swapping out for a G0 (I'd probably personally wait for 45nm quad-core parts). But if you just bought it after the price drop and can still return it... that's a different story :).

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Hey Spanki, I'm starting to like what you've just brought. Really bright interpretations I must say :)

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- (everything's relative).
- This means you can either run them cooler at the same overclock, or potentially higher overclock for the same temperature (by adding more voltage). Either way is a win (again, assuming you get a good chip).
- (for anyone who uses PWM) to keep the system quieter at higher temps
- if you already have a B3 that you're happy with, it might be difficult to justify swapping out for a G0 (I'd probably personally wait for 45nm quad-core parts). But if you just bought it after the price drop and can still return it... that's a different story :).

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Totally agree with all above statements from you.
I'd hope that the Tjunction is actually 100c so I'll be happier with a smile but if you're right about the +11c on max Tjunction, I gotta say you've proven some very useful and informative knowledge and I'm impressed :D

The only thing I'd add, which may or may not be obvious is...

- A G0 stepping Q6600 at xxxMHz @1.5v very likely runs the same temps as a B3 stepping Q6600 at the same xxxMHz @ the same 1.5v.

...it 'might' run a bit cooler due to some of the lower-voltage-optimizations part of this stepping, but maybe only a few C, if that. The primary factor is still how much voltage you're applying, so the benefit (if any) of the G0 would be:

a. because you don't have to apply so much voltage to get to the same overclock.

b. even if you end up having to apply the same voltage, you have more temperature headroom to work with, which might let you push it higher (or at least stablize an otherwise twitchy overclock).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spanki

The only thing I'd add, which may or may not be obvious is...

- A G0 stepping Q6600 at xxxMHz @1.5v very likely runs the same temps as a B3 stepping Q6600 at the same xxxMHz @ the same 1.5v.

...it 'might' run a bit cooler due to some of the lower-voltage-optimizations part of this stepping, but maybe only a few C, if that. The primary factor is still how much voltage you're applying, so the benefit (if any) of the G0 would be:

a. because you don't have to apply so much voltage to get to the same overclock.

b. even if you end up having to apply the same voltage, you have more temperature headroom to work with, which might let you push it higher (or at least stablize an otherwise twitchy overclock).

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Another great reply and you seriously don't look like someone who only has less than 100 post counts in total..lol:clap:

Do you post more on other forums I suppose?:D

i also just got an L723A930 same as ICER.

i easily expect 3.4 to be my 24/7 with this at great temps, on air.

time to go lap and take this e6400 out for good and sell it to a lucky fella in georgia who can take it to its limits.

excited to join all you other q6600 fellas in our quest to test these slacr's out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spanki

...also note that 'Tjunction' is also (and perhaps more properly) known as 'maximum Tcase value'.

snip

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I'd say that's close, but Tjunction and Tcasemax are not the same thing. Tcasemax is the maximum temperature for the IHS. Its on page 74, here, 62.2C for the B3 Q6600. The Tjunction is the on die temp, Tjmax is the maximum die temp. Tcontrol is the delta to the the thermal trip point TCC and has a negative direction -ve, as the the core heat increases the Tcontrol tends to zero. TCC is the throttling temperature. There is some debate, but Tjmax is not TCC. Tjunction is a generic value for a cpu type and the TCC value is the factory set value and can't be read externally, probably within a few degrees. So programmes like coretemp are accessing a register or assuming a value, if thats assigned correctly or reflects the actual Tjmax is a different matter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Intel

Tcase for the Intel® Core™2 Quad processor Q6600 and Intel® Xeon® processors X3220 and X3210 on G-0 stepping has been increased by 11oC. Tcontrol offset will remain the same relative to increase in Tcase which will help reduce acoustics

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That's saying the Tcasemax is now 73.2C (71C), the throttling point has the same offset as before so TCC has also increased by 11C. The short of it is that accurate absolute values are problematic, different programs use different values. Coretemp could well be reading the wrong register values for Tjmax and its not the 'actual' throttling point. Without an overheating throttling chip and a thermocouple attached, its still going to be guess at an absolute value.

Have a read on these links it might clarify a bit on the finer details. The first one is where I've tried to explain it as best I can; but you're right the deltaT via DTS is all that really matters. In techno speak its, "PROCHOT# is activated when DTS=0 for the maximum safe operating temperature."

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/sho...8&postcount=14
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=131008
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=136804

One point though, if you know the temperature of the air blowing over the HSF and you know the approximate thermal resistance of said HSF. Then for stock voltage and speeds then the chips wattage will be close to the curves specified by Intel specs. If you know that lot, then you "should" be able to calculate an approximate value for Tc. At least then you'll know how accurate the PECI bios temps are! There's a worked example in the link above if you can be bothered.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spanki

The only thing I'd add, which may or may not be obvious is...

- A G0 stepping Q6600 at xxxMHz @1.5v very likely runs the same temps as a B3 stepping Q6600 at the same xxxMHz @ the same 1.5v.

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If the G0 has a lower vcore at default that the B3 and ends at the same vcore at a higher clock it could end up using MORE power even with a lower TDP. The additional power used comes from change in voltage squared. Obviously its not very likely as a lower default vcore generally means a lower vcore for the same clock.

1. Q6600 B3 @ 3.6GHz 1.275v stock, 1.50V oced.

Pd = 105*(3600/2400)*(1.5/1.275)² = 217W

Suppose for a G0 a lower stock vcore and TDP, frequencies the same, so its the change in voltage that counts. Its using more!!

2. Q6600 G0 @ 3.6GHz 1.20v stock, 1.5V oced.

Pd = 95*(3600/2400)*(1.5/1.20)² = 222W

Now if it uses less voltage, but the same overvoltage delta. Which is fair if its the same process.

3. Q6600 G0 @ 3.6GHz 1.20v stock, 1.425V oced.

Pd = 95*(3600/2400)*(1.425/1.20)² = 200W

Been reading this forum for months now. I always do that before i join to get the jist of the atmosphere. These forums are awesome I must say. Great info from well rounded people. This thread had alot to do with registering lol

anyway, to the point.

Amazing OCs Tiramisu. looks like the G0 is actually all its cracked up to be. Being that ive been staring at close to the same rig you have for the past month now, it makes me excited. 10 days till order form and counting. I'm getting excited.

May I point out. I have been staring at the Antec 900 for quite some while now and reading up on it. That may have alot to do with your temps also. Since this case while not the greatest is amazing at air flow, being where the heatsink sits sorrounded by fans with amazing intake from the front.

Nice to join you guys. and GL on 3.8-3.9 Tiramisu. lol

Very nice clocks XtremeTiramisu. We have similar setups and like Decami stated the Antec 900 case may have a lot to do with the cooling. I am stuck with the B3 Quad :( but the temps seem to be close. I don't like to push mine over 60deg c but that's personal preference. B3 @ 3528 and @ 3654 My stability tests are Folding@Home SMP client which used to run 24/7 when these shots were taken.:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by idiotekniQues

i also just got an L723A930 same as ICER.

i easily expect 3.4 to be my 24/7 with this at great temps, on air.

time to go lap and take this e6400 out for good and sell it to a lucky fella in georgia who can take it to its limits.

excited to join all you other q6600 fellas in our quest to test these slacr's out.

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this stepping's VID is 1.300v as ICER's is, same stepping :(

my ambient temps are pretty high in here about 80F which is about 27C so at 3.3ghz my voltage is at 1.375 in bios, 1.33v in speedfan idle and 1.28v in speedfan under prime95 load all 4 cores.

temps are about 65-66 load under the above. all prime tests listed using small ffts.

i want watercooling :( or to get my new apartment soon. if i was at a ncie 21-22C in my ambient, whole nother story.

time to start researching a good affordable starter WC rig.

i ran this chip at 1.4+v in bios and ran close to 3.6ghz with prime going on all 4 cores and temps were hovering at 70c which i dont like. again ambient temps messin me up on air.

air is so dependent on ambient. i am measuring core temps in coretemp and voltage in the latest speedfan.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fornowagain

I'd say that's close, but Tjunction and Tcasemax are not the same thing. Tcasemax is the maximum temperature for the IHS...

---- lots-o-good-info-snipped ---

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Thanks for the comments and additional links - interesting stuff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fornowagain

I'd say that's close, but Tjunction and Tcasemax are not the same thing. Tcasemax is the maximum temperature for the IHS. Its on page 74, here, 62.2C for the B3 Q6600. The Tjunction is the on die temp, Tjmax is the maximum die temp. Tcontrol is the delta to the the thermal trip point TCC and has a negative direction -ve, as the the core heat increases the Tcontrol tends to zero. TCC is the throttling temperature. There is some debate, but Tjmax is not TCC. Tjunction is a generic value for a cpu type and the TCC value is the factory set value and can't be read externally, probably within a few degrees. So programmes like coretemp are accessing a register or assuming a value, if thats assigned correctly or reflects the actual Tjmax is a different matter.


That's saying the Tcasemax is now 73.2C (71C), the throttling point has the same offset as before so TCC has also increased by 11C. The short of it is that accurate absolute values are problematic, different programs use different values. Coretemp could well be reading the wrong register values for Tjmax and its not the 'actual' throttling point. Without an overheating throttling chip and a thermocouple attached, its still going to be guess at an absolute value.

Have a read on these links it might clarify a bit on the finer details. The first one is where I've tried to explain it as best I can; but you're right the deltaT via DTS is all that really matters. In techno speak its, "PROCHOT# is activated when DTS=0 for the maximum safe operating temperature."

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/sho...8&postcount=14
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=131008
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=136804

One point though, if you know the temperature of the air blowing over the HSF and you know the approximate thermal resistance of said HSF. Then for stock voltage and speeds then the chips wattage will be close to the curves specified by Intel specs. If you know that lot, then you "should" be able to calculate an approximate value for Tc. At least then you'll know how accurate the PECI bios temps are! There's a worked example in the link above if you can be bothered.


If the G0 has a lower vcore at default that the B3 and ends at the same vcore at a higher clock it could end up using MORE power even with a lower TDP. The additional power used comes from change in voltage squared. Obviously its not very likely as a lower default vcore generally means a lower vcore for the same clock.

1. Q6600 B3 @ 3.6GHz 1.275v stock, 1.50V oced.

Pd = 105*(3600/2400)*(1.5/1.275)² = 217W

Suppose for a G0 a lower stock vcore and TDP, frequencies the same, so its the change in voltage that counts. Its using more!!

2. Q6600 G0 @ 3.6GHz 1.20v stock, 1.5V oced.

Pd = 95*(3600/2400)*(1.5/1.20)² = 222W

Now if it uses less voltage, but the same overvoltage delta. Which is fair if its the same process.

3. Q6600 G0 @ 3.6GHz 1.20v stock, 1.425V oced.

Pd = 95*(3600/2400)*(1.425/1.20)² = 200W

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WOW!
Fornowagain, you really know your stuff!:clap:
Thanks so much for typing out all that useful knowledge you've.
I never know how to calculate the watt usage for my OC system but I think I got it now, much appreciated for sharing!:D :cool: :up:

Thermal management for the box intel Core 2 familiy:

http://www.intel.com/cd/channel/rese...eng/299986.htm

Basically look at the chart on the bottom of the page and it shows the Maximum Case Temperature in celcius for B3 is 62.2c (105w thermal design power) and 71.0c (95w TDP).


Now for the fun of it, here is my xtreme OC Q6600 G0 watt usage calculation (Thx again fornowagain ;) ):

* Q6600 G0 @ 3744MHz 1.224V (LOAD) stock, 1.456V (LOAD) OC'ed.

Pd = 95*(3744/2400)*(1.456v/1.224v)² = 209.70W

Performance gained: (3744 - 2400)/2400 = 56% OC'ed !

I think both results are fantastic for an xtreme OC'ed quad core on air :)

Nice chip indeed.:up:

Temps are ofcourse nothing to even consider accurate, idling with a 1.42-ish volts quad just a few degrees over ambient is not even worth arguing about.:ROTF:


I want one!:D

xtremetiramisu can you post some pics of your rig and some screenshots of how much wattage its drawing under load

Nice chip! I got my g0 from ncixus.com. It's a batch# L723A930. I'm currently running at 3.6(9x400) on the stock cooler sitting in the high 40's idle. I just wanted to see what she was capable of. If she hits 3.6 @1.40 bios 1.36(speedfan) on stock intel cooling, i've got high hopes what she'll do with the waterkeg III and d-tek fuzion I just ordered :)

Very nice info there "fornowagain". As for G0's I think I will wait till the rush is over :D

I hate you all :p:

Its making it very hard not to buy a G0 :mad:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spanki

1. Temperatures being reported for the new E6x50s are way off - obviously 85C is no longer the proper Tjunction value to be used for those.

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I compared the reported load temps of my B2 E6400 to a new G0 E6550 and at the same MHz, core voltage and room temperatures, our load temps were almost identical. For both processors, TjMax is assumed to be 85C.

The idle temperatures for his E6550 were being reported below ambient which is impossible but my B2 E6400 can also report idle temperatures below ambient. That doesn't prove that the maximum Tjunction isn't 85C. It might just be that the data coming from the on chip digital temperature sensors isn't accurate at low temperatures. These sensors are designed and calibrated for managing the thermal throttling and thermal shut down of the processor. No where does Intel document their use for measuring idle temperatures.

My opinion based on readings from an IR thermometer is that they are very accurate from 50C to 100C. Below 50C they lose accuracy and when used to report idle core temperatures, will usually report readings that are too low.

I believe the TjMax for the new Q6600 is likely 100C as CoreTemp 0.95 is assuming but without any documentation from Intel, I'm only guessing and so is anyone writing temperature software.

None of the above matters if you set CoreTemp 0.95 to "Show Delta to Tjunction temp." CoreTemp is accurately reading that Intel documented register and displays it in real time.

If you're doing some serious overclocking and you're running stable you really don't have to worry too much about temperatures. When fully overclocked, you'll lose stability before you reach the throttling point and you won't get anywhere near the THERMTRIP# shut down point.

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Originally Posted by unclewebb

I compared the reported load temps of my B2 E6400 to a new G0 E6550 and at the same MHz, core voltage and room temperatures, our load temps were almost identical. For both processors, TjMax is assumed to be 85C.

The idle temperatures for his E6550 were being reported below ambient which is impossible but my B2 E6400 can also report idle temperatures below ambient. That doesn't prove that the maximum Tjunction isn't 85C. It might just be that the data coming from the on chip digital temperature sensors isn't accurate at low temperatures. These sensors are designed and calibrated for managing the thermal throttling and thermal shut down of the processor. No where does Intel document their use for measuring idle temperatures.

My opinion based on readings from an IR thermometer is that they are very accurate from 50C to 100C. Below 50C they lose accuracy and when used to report idle core temperatures, will usually report readings that are too low.

I believe the TjMax for the new Q6600 is likely 100C as CoreTemp 0.95 is assuming but without any documentation from Intel, I'm only guessing and so is anyone writing temperature software.

None of the above matters if you set CoreTemp 0.95 to "Show Delta to Tjunction temp." CoreTemp is accurately reading that Intel documented register and displays it in real time.

If you're doing some serious overclocking and you're running stable you really don't have to worry too much about temperatures. When fully overclocked, you'll lose stability before you reach the throttling point and you won't get anywhere near the THERMTRIP# shut down point.

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Another thorough explaination unclewebb, thanks for posting it here. This is my first time I see you on XS and you rock over at the [H] forum :)

Ballistix Tracers 8500 FTW ! :D

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/4...24mhzocbp7.jpg

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3225/6241jy0.jpg

Just earlier today I started focusing on OC the rams and starting doing prime blend stress. It's a bit difficult to get stable than small fft but now it's priming away after I changed the NB reference to x0.67 from x0.61 (much more detail BIOS configuration for P5K-Dlx will be disclosed FYI ;) )

Ram isn't complete stable at this speed and given Vcore and timings but it's stable enough to do anything else besides prime blend as I'm typing you this msg :p


More good stuff to come, ;)

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8...ghz126vkf7.jpg

1st of all hello, I have not benn around for some time, currently struggling with the beta BIOS from Striker Extreme , which is a crap :(
All mem on auto , otherwise no boot up clearing CMOS etc
but for the start it s not bad :)

CHip is QX6700 :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by famich

1st of all hello, I have not benn around for some time, currently struggling with the beta BIOS from Striker Extreme , which is a crap :(
All mem on auto , otherwise no boot up clearing CMOS etc
but for the start it s not bad :)

CHip is QX6700 :)

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Very nice so far for an ES G0 QX6700 :)
but let's keep this thread strictly stay on topic: Q6600 G0 and air cooling.

Thanks for sharing though:cool:

XtremeTiramisu send me your CPU to test for a week! My Q6600 B3 is STRICTLY limited to 3.0GHz because load temps hit ~71 degrees celcius with only 1.35625vcore on fairly high end air cooling! Will flash the BIOS later this week to see if I can find any improvements and/or exploits.

Interestingly, look at this;
http://processorfinder.intel.com/det...px?sSpec=SLACR (G0 stepping)
http://processorfinder.intel.com/det...px?sSpec=SL9UM (B3 stepping)

95watts G0 71 degrees
105watts B3 62.2 degrees

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Originally Posted by peteypete271

XtremeTiramisu send me your CPU to test for a week! My Q6600 B3 is STRICTLY limited to 3.0GHz because load temps hit ~71 degrees celcius with only 1.35625vcore on fairly high end air cooling! Will flash the BIOS later this week to see if I can find any improvements and/or exploits.

Interestingly, look at this;
http://processorfinder.intel.com/det...px?sSpec=SLACR (G0 stepping)
http://processorfinder.intel.com/det...px?sSpec=SL9UM (B3 stepping)

95watts G0 71 degrees
105watts B3 62.2 degrees

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Yep this has being discussed earlier in this page ^
:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by idiotekniQues

this stepping's VID is 1.300v as ICER's is, same stepping :(

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Don't assume a 1.3VID is :(

I'm running 4 cores at 3.6 GHz 24/7 (with nice temps) and can boot into windows vista @ 4GHz. True, it's not Orthos stable at 4GHz but I can run some Pi....all on air.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XtremeTiramisu

Ballistix Tracers 8500 FTW ! :D

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...48624mhzOC.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ramisu/624.jpg

Just earlier today I started focusing on OC the rams and starting doing prime blend stress. It's a bit difficult to get stable than small fft but now it's priming away after I changed the NB reference to x0.67 from x0.61 (much more detail BIOS configuration for P5K-Dlx will be disclosed FYI ;) )

Ram isn't complete stable at this speed and given Vcore and timings but it's stable enough to do anything else besides prime blend as I'm typing you this msg :p


More good stuff to come, ;)

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really nice crucial.. :) really good cas 5.. what is your highest cas 4 on your kit??

Asus make agood p35 board.. :D mm.. waiting for x38 :D

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Originally Posted by erwinz

really nice crucial.. :) really good cas 5.. what is your highest cas 4 on your kit??

Asus make agood p35 board.. :D mm.. waiting for x38 :D

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I'm having tough luck getting good CAS4 clock, and it's not even worth mentioning...lol
Ballistix family is known to be the best CAS5 OC'er but mediocre in CAS4