Selling ES processor is a risky business.

Both sides are right. There needs to be a way to address this problem however, so why not STOP SELLING/BUYING ES chips starting now, since either activity makes you nothing but guilty in the eyes of the law? There's nothing wrong with DrWho? posting here, because once people stop buying, there'll be no problem. It's like the cocaine problem in the US. Who to blame: the peddlers or the addicts? Addiction to hardware/benching and the fame that comes with it, with the encouragement of the manufacturers of course, is the problem and in that sense, both sides are guilty.

The bottom line, unfortunately, is this.

Quote:

---

Engineering sample processors (also known as ES processors) are not intended to be offered for sale or resale to the general public. ES processors are considered "Intel Confidential" processors and are only to be used within Intel or by AUTHORIZED personnel outside of Intel for purposes of testing, evaluating, and/or pre-configuring systems. Every ES processor that is "Loaned" outside of Intel is done so under strict contractual agreements or Non-Disclosure Agreements (NDA) to assure the protection of Intel's intellectual property and the unit during the time it is "Loaned" out.

Engineering sample processors from Intel are property of Intel Corporation.

---

http://www.intel.com/support/process.../CS-030121.htm

Person "A" loans their car to person "B". After person "B" no longer has a use for the car he sells it to person "C". Person "A" finds out that person "C" has his car and demands it back. There is only one possible outcome to this. The car goes back to its rightful owner, person "B" is in legal trouble and person "C" no longer has the car or his money.

Sorry guys, but i don't see how anyone can reach a conclusion that the ES situation is any different the the above car example.

Dr Who?,
If as you say Intel have now introduced "tracability" to future ES yet to be released the why not draw a line under this given that it should no longer be an issue for future chips?

Clearly Intel's system for distribution and tagging has been flawed up to this point and as such the company can now move on without further alienating consumers/benchers/reviewers and put this whole sorry episode to bed.

If the systems are now in place to control the issue as legally defined then why not simply have an amnesty for those caught for single/handful of infractions up to this point?

I'm not convinced that XS members are the place to start when looking for targets to make examples of, afterall they are not in this hobby for the money but are enthusiats promoting the upper limits of what is achievable with Intel's products.

I understand it is not legal to sell what does not belong to you and i am not defending the sale of intels property. But this could be managed better.

if they started in their own house, rather then then the enduser 4 steps from the person who gt the chips from INTEL then he would have a little more credibility. But no, they burn a few random souls a the stake and then do business as usual with their broken macine(intel)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Praz

The bottom line, unfortunately, is this.



http://www.intel.com/support/process.../CS-030121.htm

Person "A" loans their car to person "B". After person "B" no longer has a use for the car he sells it to person "C". Person "A" finds out that person "C" has his car and demands it back. There is only one possible outcome to this. The car goes back to its rightful owner, person "B" is in legal trouble and person "C" no longer has the car or his money.

Sorry guys, but i don't see how anyone can reach a conclusion that the ES situation is any different the the above car example.

---

During the CES , i have talk with francois , he said :

"Intel would sell the 975XE these partners because it couldn't be loans/given because the price of product is expensive" (its the truth ? I don't know, I listen to Mr Intel ...) If this is true is different compared to with the bottom line you have write. but I think we will never ....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by boblemagnifique

Personnaly , i have meet francois in CES , i speak a few time here or facebook , he know my nickname and he see then overclocking a CPU ES for broke many WR.

he waited until the end of my sales report me (I know very well that he had already seen my ad before), he contacted me a few hours after it ends for me he had denounced ...

Ok it's my fault , i accept but I don't like how he ... I am ashamed to be the same nationality as him, sincerely ...

Now If Intel contact me for the CPU, I want that is the same for ALL the sellers on eBay and especially Pro Sellers who sell 100's of cpus and who earn their living on the ES and especially those who sell directly from Intel or Partners. => This the REAL PROBLEM

---

We all understand your situation, I dare to say.
What it boils down in your case seems to be a combination of "wrong place", "wrong time" and especially "wrong action". As you already realized Intel can't say that they wouldn't accept any ES sales and then say "oh, wait, that's boblemagnifique, a well known overclocker. We can't punish him while doing so with any other person we catch selling an ES from now on."

Let's just hope that Intel won't be too harsh on you.
And just try to put yourself in Francois's shoes for a second: Maybe he was told to take care of the ES problem. And then one of the first people being found guilty selling one of the very ES CPUs is a famous OCer from his own home country. Although normally nobody would care this combination does make him look a bit bad, too. Not obviously, but rather subliminally. And the fact that he knows you might have made it even worse for him personally.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Movieman

'Your so busy bending over picking up pennies that you don't see the dollar bills falling out of your pocket."

---

hehehe good one dave

What I posted above does not necessarily mean that I completely agree with how this situation is being handled. If I was faced with something similar with one of my businesses I would most likely go after the end of the supply and demand chain also. But it would be a secondary action. My primary focus would be the suppliers of the chips.

As Movieman has stated I believe in the beginning this thread was a friendly heads up to people at XS as to what Intel's planned course of action was going to be. Look at what the common response was. People posting that they would continue to buy and sell the processors and if that wasn't acceptable don't release them.

The request to not use the processors in competition was met with the same response. HWBot went as far as to publicly state the following.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Massman

As long as no manufacturer is interested enough to actually sit down with Hwbot and work out a decent way to promote hardware on the one hand and provide a challenging benchmarking platform on the other hand, there's absolutely NO need for us to follow their wishes. So no, there's no need for Hwbot to prohibit ES hardware because Intel prefers not to see these in competition.

---

http://www.hwbot.org/forum/showpost....&postcount=126

None of us can expect there to be no consequences if someone is backed into a corner and continually slapped in the face. From the beginning it seems as this was handled improperly by all parties.

why are you dragging your dirty laundry across different forums :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ...
As long as no manufacturer is interested enough to actually sit down with Hwbot and work out a decent way to promote hardware on the one hand and provide a challenging benchmarking platform on the other hand, there's absolutely NO need for us to follow their wishes. So no, there's no need for Hwbot to prohibit ES hardware because Intel prefers not to see these in competition.

---

I love it..... Go [H] :yepp:

I think this is a relevent to the conversation and love itl....

But i agree that ES should not be used in the ranking, it makes the top spots out of the reach of regular guys, it should be retail only. but I still like what H said for the ES issue when Intel doesn't fix it from where it starts , in their house

boblemagnifique is being used as a patsy here... and its VERY bad taste to broadcast this guys name and try to make Him the whipping boy.
the original intention of this thread was not in my opinion as some have said a 'friendly warning' but I believe more likely a 'look at me' I can put the :banana::banana::banana::banana:s up you all.

Well im very happy to see that the guys here with some integrity have stood up to it.
This is intels problem [if it is a problem at all?] more like look at the size of my intel penis.

Dont blame the oc community, Intel have used the overclocking community for years and now you come up with this s***?

beyond belief really.:shakes:

Okay this won't win me any friends but I've bought a few ES chips over the years. Nothing cutting edge but still. And it's funny (peculiar) to read posts from guys I know have sold ES chips about how it's not that big a deal or how the real bad guys are Intel partners that sold them in the first place I get mixed feelings. I mean we might be a small percentage of illegal ES sales but we are highly visible and vocal. What we do can set the tone for others. And if you re-read the OP all Francios P said was PLEASE do not sell ES chips. I mean he's just stating the obvious...something anyone who has ever sold an ES already knows.


Bottom line is always about the money. I bought ES because they were a lot cheaper than retail. But that does not make it right. I break the law several times a day anyway so whatever...and I'll never be an Intel partner so another whatever...and finally I don't list ES chips I have bought for resale in public...so I think I am pretty much safe from the CPU police.

There are so many things happening that are "not right" everyday I have to put them through the sieve and grade them from inconsequential to life threatening ya know? ES CPUs being sold to overclockers from overclockers barely shows up on the radar for me...

How about the rest of you guys?

That said, hear what Dr Who is saying/asking and keep yourselves clear of the fall out mkay? He is restating the obvious. That means as a whole we must be getting sloppy (listing on eBay fer instance sheesh) for Intel to even notice our tiny part of the ES "scandals" occurring every day right? So TIGHTEN the :banana::banana::banana::banana: UP :D

As far as I am concerned, if Intel really wanted their ES chips back, they should have been more careful who they loaned them to.

The law be damned; it will matter when it's enforceable. As for morals and/or ethics...well, I'm not one to let legislature or legal precident dictate that. If I obtain something, it's mine until I voluntarily part with it, or someone pries it from my cold, dead, hands.

boblemagnifique , look at the date of creation of this thread and who created it ... I saw an explosion of 975 ES sells on OCbay and ebay. Nicely, I tried to warn everybody here, without finger pointing, and I explained that the ES are property of Intel, and you can not sell them.

I posted this thread the 06-27-2009, 03:28 PM , the sale of the ES was closed Jul-04-09 ... I gave everybody time to understand and cancel their "bad idea" ... I saw many cancelling it.

What else can I do? calling every body one per one ... I can 't do this, I would get into trouble too, I am not the Sheriff!!! I would like people to get their senses and try understanding, I don't want to punish, I want to educate.
I don't want to blame either, the only thing I can do is to make sure that those people don't get sponsored from my side, and can't participate to competitions ...
Aurelien is a nice guy, I hope he is trying to get the ES back and cancel the all sell.
There is always ways to fix and arrange problems.

come on guys, what I am asking is not that difficult, don t sell ES and everybody will be happy!



Francois
PS: You wanted Intel to be open, I am here for that, don't shoot at me when I tell you that something is off limit .. selling intel property is OFF limits.

One last word from me on this and I'm out. Francios is on our side guys. He's the enthusiast at Intel that brought us Skulltrail (still the love of my life and my daily driver) and there is no need to argue or throw barbs his way...he's one of US dammit!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Drwho?

boblemagnifique , look at the date of creation of this thread and who created it ... I saw an explosion of 975 ES sells on OCbay and ebay. Nicely, I tried to warn everybody here, without finger pointing, and I explained that the ES are property of Intel, and you can not sell them.

I posted this thread the 06-27-2009, 03:28 PM , the sale of the ES was closed Jul-04-09 ... I gave everybody time to understand and cancel their "bad idea" ... I saw many cancelling it.

What else can I do? calling every body one per one ... I can 't do this, I would get into trouble too, I am not the Sheriff!!! I would like people to get their senses and try understanding, I don't want to punish, I want to educate.
I don't want to blame either, the only thing I can do is to make sure that those people don't get sponsored from my side, and can't participate to competitions ...
Aurelien is a nice guy, I hope he is trying to get the ES back and cancel the all sell.
There is always ways to fix and arrange problems.

come on guys, what I am asking is not that difficult, don t sell ES and everybody will be happy!



Francois
PS: You wanted Intel to be open, I am here for that, don't shoot at me when I tell you that something is off limit .. selling intel property is OFF limits.

---

I generally try to be polite when I post here.
I generally try to "see the other side" when I post here.
Your orginal post I replied to politely.
Your post nameing Boble brought out in me an instant anger and an image of a multi billion dollar corporation bringing down the wrath of God on a guy that I've met and seemed to be a decent guy and that is why you got that reply from me.
I still stand by the statement that we are not your enemy and "we" in no way at all effect intels profit structure except in a positive way.
I want you to think on this for a moment.
I'm a relatively poor guy compared to most but there is in excess of $40,000.00 in computer hardware in my house.
Not a business mind you, but my home.
At rough estimate I have spent over $10,000.00 on Intel cpu's over the last 3 years.
Those are retail cpu's not ES's that I've purchased.
I don't hurt you. On the contrary I help with the bottom line at intel far above what the average PC enthusiast does.
Every guy on this forum is like me to one degreee or another.
We far outspend any average number per person you could mention.
Even George(Hipro5) with his yelling here I can speak for.
I have bought retail Intel cpu's for him as it was easier to get them from the USA and then send to Greece.
I'm going to say it again, We are not your enemy.

Another guy brought up a point that I would like an answer for even though I think I know the answer.
Why is a X5550 gainestown three times the price of a i7-920 when they are the same damned cpu?
It's one line with both cpu's having dual QPI and the ones sold as i7-920'ss having the second QPI electronically disabled. If the same, why three times the price?
This is another problem you folks at intel have created.
Your pricing yourselves out of the market for any one that wants a high end dual socket system.
You wonder why people purchase ES chips.
The answer is above.
What normal person can afford to drop $2000-$3000 every year to keep up with the system changes.
I for damned sure can't anymore.
All I ever wanted was to try and help the next generation to lead healthier lives and the pursuit of that using Intel parts has pretty much bankrupted me.

Oh boy.

This has all the ingredients of a locked thread...and then some...

But I'll leave it alone for a bit.

If you cant afford the build then why build it....dont build a rig which you know the cost b4 hand and then blame Intel then justify buying ES chips to help you sleep at night.

I really dont see why this thread has gone on as long as it has..its very simple BIG company gives away stuff asks in return DO NOT PROFIT from it...now ppl are putting up high end chips on ebay, the man ask'd very nicely please please do not continue this trend or actions will have to be taken...basically ppl spit in his face so whats is he supposed to do???
Personally I dont think he has been rude or crossed any line most replys including yours have been rude..if this was Charles asking ppl not to sell ES chips you would have banned most of the ppl for replying the way they did..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Movieman

All I ever wanted was to try and help the next generation to lead healthier lives and the pursuit of that using Intel parts has pretty much bankrupted me.

---

Dave Intel is a big corporation, they could care less about peoples lifes. They are there for one thing and one thing only Money... :down:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Drwho?

boblemagnifique , look at the date of creation of this thread and who created it ... I saw an explosion of 975 ES sells on OCbay and ebay. Nicely, I tried to warn everybody here, without finger pointing, and I explained that the ES are property of Intel, and you can not sell them.

I posted this thread the 06-27-2009, 03:28 PM , the sale of the ES was closed Jul-04-09 ... I gave everybody time to understand and cancel their "bad idea" ... I saw many cancelling it.

What else can I do? calling every body one per one ... I can 't do this, I would get into trouble too, I am not the Sheriff!!! I would like people to get their senses and try understanding, I don't want to punish, I want to educate.
I don't want to blame either, the only thing I can do is to make sure that those people don't get sponsored from my side, and can't participate to competitions ...
Aurelien is a nice guy, I hope he is trying to get the ES back and cancel the all sell.
There is always ways to fix and arrange problems.

come on guys, what I am asking is not that difficult, don t sell ES and everybody will be happy!



Francois
PS: You wanted Intel to be open, I am here for that, don't shoot at me when I tell you that something is off limit .. selling intel property is OFF limits.

---

Not sure how many times we have to tell you the same, the real issue is not the final overclocker that bought 1 ES and now trie to sell it for 0 profit.

For once do the rigth thing and ask all the big guy you give 100 of ES CPUs to top and punish them, they signed the contract with you. I guess you can't do that right? how could you punish Asus, Foxconn, Dell, HP, etc...

This is so lame, as many other have said if this continues i'll chango to AMD for ever and will not recommend one more Intel CPU (believe me i do you guys a great favor on recomending Intel CPUs, as i already told we have 3.000.000 unique visitors and 130.000 registered forum members).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Drwho?

PS: You wanted Intel to be open, I am here for that, don't shoot at me when I tell you that something is off limit .. selling intel property is OFF limits.

---

Why then not just buy all ES chips available on open market and trace them down to actual NDA signers. I seriously doubt anyone here has any NDA with Intel thus Intel has no legal authority to prosecute them. It's like Dave wrote before about collecting pennies off the street while dollar bills falling out your pockets.

I just fail to see what's your problem with folks selling one/two chips they originally bought from someone and so on up to the actual disti/ISP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Movieman

I generally try to be polite when I post here.
I generally try to "see the other side" when I post here.
Your orginal post I replied to politely.
Your post nameing Boble brought out in me an instant anger and an image of a multi billion dollar corporation bringing down the wrath of God on a guy that I've met and seemed to be a decent guy and that is why you got that reply from me.
I still stand by the statement that we are not your enemy and "we" in no way at all effect intels profit structure except in a positive way.
I want you to think on this for a moment.
I'm a relatively poor guy compared to most but there is in excess of $40,000.00 in computer hardware in my house.
Not a business mind you, but my home.
At rough estimate I have spent over $10,000.00 on Intel cpu's over the last 3 years.
Those are retail cpu's not ES's that I've purchased.
I don't hurt you. On the contrary I help with the bottom line at intel far above what the average PC enthusiast does.
Every guy on this forum is like me to one degreee or another.
We far outspend any average number per person you could mention.
Even George(Hipro5) with his yelling here I can speak for.
I have bought retail Intel cpu's for him as it was easier to get them from the USA and then send to Greece.
I'm going to say it again, We are not your enemy.

Another guy brought up a point that I would like an answer for even though I think I know the answer.
Why is a X5550 gainestown three times the price of a i7-920 when they are the same damned cpu?
It's one line with both cpu's having dual QPI and the ones sold as i7-920'ss having the second QPI electronically disabled. If the same, why three times the price?
This is another problem you folks at intel have created.
Your pricing yourselves out of the market for any one that wants a high end dual socket system.
You wonder why people purchase ES chips.
The answer is above.
What normal person can afford to drop $2000-$3000 every year to keep up with the system changes.
I for damned sure can't anymore.
All I ever wanted was to try and help the next generation to lead healthier lives and the pursuit of that using Intel parts has pretty much bankrupted me.

---

The problem is not Bob ... The problem is the guy who sold the sample to Bob to beging with ...
I understand the money problem, trust me on this! in the mean time, what else can I do?
1 ) Let people forwarding to others the samples and selling them to each other?
2) I can avoid the discussion and let the lawyers in the back ground doing their job (never end well)
3) Or I can come here and open a discussion, complain when something is too obviously wrong ... and take mild action to try to stop it.

I like 3 Better ...

overall, I try to be open ...don't take it as a stick ... very likely, Bob will be fine. we have full tracability, we can figure out who sold the ES at the beginning.

In the case of Bob, I appreciate the Dude, he is a nice Dude ...

I don t know how to formulate it ... just stay away from ES commerce, it is wrong!

ES commerce make some very unhonnest Dudes somewhere very rich, and you guys are the one paying for this ...

Without the fear of seeing the samples dissapear and being sold, I could probably sample more the OC community ...

Let's close the topic, I think all was said.

Francois

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Drwho?

boblemagnifique , look at the date of creation of this thread and who created it ... I saw an explosion of 975 ES sells on OCbay and ebay. Nicely, I tried to warn everybody here, without finger pointing, and I explained that the ES are property of Intel, and you can not sell them.

I posted this thread the 06-27-2009, 03:28 PM , the sale of the ES was closed Jul-04-09 ... I gave everybody time to understand and cancel their "bad idea" ... I saw many cancelling it.

What else can I do? calling every body one per one ... I can 't do this, I would get into trouble too, I am not the Sheriff!!! I would like people to get their senses and try understanding, I don't want to punish, I want to educate.
I don't want to blame either, the only thing I can do is to make sure that those people don't get sponsored from my side, and can't participate to competitions ...
Aurelien is a nice guy, I hope he is trying to get the ES back and cancel the all sell.
There is always ways to fix and arrange problems.

come on guys, what I am asking is not that difficult, don t sell ES and everybody will be happy!



Francois
PS: You wanted Intel to be open, I am here for that, don't shoot at me when I tell you that something is off limit .. selling intel property is OFF limits.

---

Since 3 years ago about when the release of C2D (E6600) the number of ES on EBAY had exploded. Intel has asked a lot of forums and ebay to ban the sale (this is true, no?)

These are what people have been arrested ? I don't think and today yet , it's exactly the same problem ....

I was aware for a long time, no need to have seen this topic here.

I agree and I am ok but what I don't like to receive an email from you after my sale and I say: "I have denounced, I warned", I think that your status: Intel Senior Performance Analyst (it's correct yet ?) doesn't required making a denunciation ??? ... but you find just what you do , ok for you

No problem but for me , i stop to overclocking with Intel plateform ,I will not continue to Broke WR with my money and your partners will do our image of overclocker for :

I will not pay my cpus and you make them after when you unable to keep track of your Products , it's a Great joke :clap:

I prefer to stop definitively , so goodbye INTEL.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cooper

Why then not just buy all ES chips available on open market and trace them down to actual NDA signers. I seriously doubt anyone here has any NDA with Intel thus Intel has no legal authority to prosecute them. It's like Dave wrote before about collecting pennies off the street while dollar bills falling out your pockets.

I just fail to see what's your problem with folks selling one/two chips they originally bought from someone and so on up to the actual disti/ISP.

---

we do find the NDA breakers, and original sample sellers ... and the end of the story is usually very sad ... never good, trust me, I saw some pretty stupid cases. I wish we can avoid this!

nothing more to add.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Drwho?

we do find the NDA breakers, and original sample sellers ... and the end of the story is usually very sad ... never good, trust me, I saw some pretty stupid cases. I wish we can avoid this!

nothing more to add.

---

then again end-users here seem offended to the point of totally ignoring Intel's products. Not sure what was the point of the thread in the first place. I'm very positive majority here knows what ES is and what are the risks involved in buying one (no warranty for end-user comes to mind first).
If you want to avoid this go complain to Asus, Gigabyte, HP, Dell etc.