ATI Radeon HD 4000 Series discussion

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Originally Posted by AliG

Come to think about it, the r600 could be looked at like the r520. It lost to nvidia's high end, but isn't wasn't made to win, it was made more so as a test to pave the way for the next big bomb they drop on the market.

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I'm not entirely sure where you came up with that theory but it's not completely right. Both the R600 and R520 were made to win, the R600 just got blown out of the water though. The R520 was a different story, there ATI had massive delays because of some mistake in their design (which seemed rather easy to fix after they found it though, a major blunder in other words). R520 was supposed to launch alongside NVIDIA's 7800 GTX, it just missed that date by a huge margin. R520 would have been competitive with NVIDIA if it would have been launched around that time, it just didn't happen. R580 was launched just the way they planned it, which seemed early for us as R520 was just entering the market, but there were no delays for R580 and there was enough reason to launch it even though it would give R520 a short lifespan.
R600 was just failure compared to NVIDIA, R600 did as ATI expected it to but NVIDIA just did way better than ATI expected.
But all this is of coarse a bit off-topic.

"We have received some preliminary performance numbers from CJ for Radeon HD 4870 and 4850 vs the current GeForce 9800 series lineup. Apparently, RV770XT with GDDR5 (160W) will run 1.3X faster than RV770PRO with GDDR3 (110W). Two key factors that contribute to the 30% difference in performance between the 2 cards: a 100MHz core clock difference and a faster GDDR5 at 1.96GHz vs GDDR3 at 1GHz. Interesting, RV770PRO will run 1.25X faster than GeForce 8800 GT/9800 GT while RV770XT will run 1.25X faster than GeForce 9800 GTX."-vr-zone

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Originally Posted by Eastcoasthandle

By that definition posts like this would also apply. As stated in that post all is taken with a grain of salt. I believe you have forgotten that most information in this thread has been speculation.

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Yes, but there is no need to weight speculation according to who's important...

It's a little hard to swallow that the 8800GT vs the 9800GTX is really ~30%, I thought it was about 20% max.

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Originally Posted by Macadamia

Yes, but there is no need to weight speculation according to who's important...

It's a little hard to swallow that the 8800GT vs the 9800GTX is really ~30%, I thought it was about 20% max.

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This is were comprehension is needed. It's not about the person. This is where your post is incoherent. It's about what's being speculated. Places like VR-Zone are also pointing in that direction. In the future it's better to look at the overall picture and not view speculation based on someone's importance. Had you done so, your would have heeded to my warning in the very post your quoted.

very nice, and just in time for Tax Rebate / Refund spending :)
I can't wait to see how well the 4850 and 4870 OC when given some extra volts. With all that extra texturing power, it may be worth it to pick up the DDR5 variant if this new chip is bandwidth starved

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/719...x2specscf2.jpg

I hope 4870 will beat 9800GTX :clap:

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Originally Posted by Eastcoasthandle

This is were comprehension is needed. It's not about the person. This is where your post is incoherent. It's about what's being speculated. Places like VR-Zone are also pointing in that direction. In the future it's better to look at the overall picture and not view speculation based on someone's importance. Had you done so, your would have heeded to my warning in the very post your quoted.

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But-but-SNAP
That's a far gap. Esp. considering the GT200 is estimated to more than double 2 G92/G80s, 55nm or not.


I wouldn't say speculating is wrong, even though I do frown on one-line throwaways about such things to drive the masses up and/or, unless it comes from people like CJ :)

VR-Zone? A mix of good, bad and ugly. Flooded with the pile of sensationalism that I so despise.

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Originally Posted by nemsis

I hope 4870 will beat 9800GTX :clap:

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How old is that graph? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Macadamia

But-but-SNAP
That's a far gap. Esp. considering the GT200 is estimated to more than double 2 G92/G80s, 55nm or not.


I wouldn't say speculating is wrong, even though I do frown on one-line throwaways about such things to drive the masses up and/or, unless it comes from people like CJ :)

VR-Zone? A mix of good, bad and ugly. Flooded with the pile of sensationalism that I so despise.

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But CJ is saying that the RV770 will be faster then 9800GTX by 25%. See, more and more sources are pointing in that direction. Are the sources correct? We will soon see once it's released. Is is still sensationalism or is it a problem with just you? It's never wise to only rely on one source to formulate an opinion be it true or otherwise.

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Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR

How old is that graph? :rolleyes:

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:rolleyes:it is not old

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Originally Posted by nemsis

:rolleyes:it is not old

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Look at the first post of this thread please... :rolleyes:

Original source: http://forums.vr-zone.com/showthread.php?t=255294

Date: March 28th, 2008

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Originally Posted by nemsis

:rolleyes:it is not old

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dude where the hell have you been?

I'm trying my best to keep my cool, but seriously, that was the original post of this thread, which has had 30 pages of discussion.


man stargazer don't you :banana::banana::banana::banana:ing wonder if anyone bothers to read this thread?

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Originally Posted by nemsis

I hope 4870 will beat 9800GTX :clap:

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>>> http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&postcount=704

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RV770 Preliminary Performance Revealed


We have received some preliminary performance numbers from CJ for Radeon HD 4870 and 4850 vs the current GeForce 9800 series lineup. Apparently, RV770XT with GDDR5 (160W) will run 1.3X faster than RV770PRO with GDDR3 (110W). Two key factors that contribute to the 30% difference in performance between the 2 cards: a 100MHz core clock difference and a faster GDDR5 at 1.96GHz vs GDDR3 at 1GHz. Interesting, RV770PRO will run 1.25X faster than GeForce 8800 GT/9800 GT while RV770XT will run 1.25X faster than GeForce 9800 GTX.
http://www.vr-zone.com/articles/RV77...aled/5782.html

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$500 :shocked: more like nvidia pricing :(

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Originally Posted by AliG

man stargazer don't you :banana::banana::banana::banana:ing wonder if anyone bothers to read this thread?

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I do :mad:

BTW what the hell is happening with the quotes :confused:

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Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR

I do :mad:

BTW what the hell is happening with the quotes :confused:

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What's wrong then with the quotes? :confused::shrug:;):rolleyes::p::yepp::rofl::ROTF:

25% better performance than a 9800GTX at a $250 price point is amazing, especially for a Value part.

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Originally Posted by NH|Delph1

40nm is not ready for actual mass production until next year, sampling will start in late 2008. ;)
//Andreas

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Really?
So you are saying that TSMC's 40nm is ramping slower than 65/55/45nm?
40nm was suppose to be ready for MP in Q3...

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Originally Posted by Helmore

R600 was just failure compared to NVIDIA, R600 did as ATI expected it to but NVIDIA just did way better than ATI expected.
But all this is of coarse a bit off-topic.

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Just a quick nit-pick.
R600 didn't turn out like ATi expected it to, it was suppose to be hitting much higher clocks and performance was suppose to be a bit better.

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Originally Posted by AliG

man stargazer don't you :banana::banana::banana::banana:ing wonder if anyone bothers to read this thread?

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LoL. I remember lurking at B3D and trying to read through the G80/R600/G92/R700 threads before posting, took a few weeks worth of nightly reading for me to get caught up.

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Originally Posted by Helmore

What's wrong then with the quotes? :confused::shrug:;):rolleyes::p::yepp::rofl::ROTF:

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This is what's happening :mad:

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/9...ckityr6.th.png

Many words in FF are missing, in other forums too... Windows too :mad::mad: What a shiitty Vista I have now, doing strage things. Look at the mIRC icon at the bottom. Time to reinstall :lol:

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Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR

Look at the first post of this thread please... :rolleyes:

Original source: http://forums.vr-zone.com/showthread.php?t=255294

Date: March 28th, 2008

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I saw the chart in another forum today

i thought its new information :confused:

but do you mean that its wrong specs :)

Nobody knows (here) if it's wrong or not yet, wait until official confirmation or 100% verified source :)

VR-Zone is looking a lot like FUD...

25% faster than 9800GTX sounds great to me :up: I don't really care about 9900GTX/GTS as they don't Fold. :cool:

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Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR

This is what's happening :mad:

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/9...ckityr6.th.png

Many words in FF are missing, in other forums too... Windows too :mad::mad: What a shiitty Vista I have now, doing strage things. Look at the mIRC icon at the bottom. Time to reinstall :lol:

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You really need smart bookmarks ;)

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/1...8798798lp7.jpg

From Digtimes 4/16:

GPU makers to cross blades in June with the launch of Radeon HD 4800 and GeForce GTX 200

Latest news
Monica Chen, Taipei; Joseph Tsai, DIGITIMES [Friday 16 May 2008]

AMD and Nvidia are ready to cross blades again in June with their next generation GPU families – the ATI Radeon HD 4800 and GeForce GTX 200, according to sources at graphics card makers.

AMD is planning to launch its ATI Radeon HD 4800 family in the middle of June. The first model to launch will be the ATI Radeon HD 4850 with a price set around US$229.

The company will follow with the 4870 in the late June, with the same specification as the 4850 but will add support for GDDR5 memory. Expected pricing will be set around US$349.

In the fourth quarter, AMD will launch the dual-GPU ATI Radeon 4870 X2 priced around US$529-549.

Nvidia will counter with its new high-end GeForce GTX 200 (D10U) family in the middle of June, featuring a second generation Unified Shader architecture. Launch products will come in GeForce GTX 260 and GTX 280 versions.

Link-A-Dink-A-Doo

^^^interesting...

I got some gossip for you (it should mean rumor but let me make sure I spell that out first :rofl:). PCZilla says that the 4800 series uses a built in PPU. The 4800 itself using 480SP while the PPU uses 320SP which equals 800SP. I assume that's why the East was calling it 320SP+480SP instead of 800SP. Who knows??? Lets hope that specs are released soon so we can finally put an end to this.

Source

finally :D:lsfight::weapon:
a minor tremor in my excitometer.

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Originally Posted by Eastcoasthandle

^^^interesting...

I got some gossip for you (it should mean rumor but let me make sure I spell that out first :rofl:). PCZilla says that the 4800 series uses a built in PPU. The 4800 itself using 480SP while the PPU uses 320SP which equals 800SP. I assume that's why the East was calling it 320SP+480SP instead of 800SP. Who knows??? Lets how that specs are released soon so we can finally put an end to this.

Source

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I call bs on that one. There is not enough space in that die. Also if it were real I want 800SPs for graphics, not for stupid physics.

why? No game out there will be coded for 800 shaders just for gfx, in fact this may be more useful to have some dedicated physx power


btw, whats PPU stand for?

It'll be nice having some inbuilt physics oomph :)

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Originally Posted by AliG

btw, whats PPU stand for?

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Physics Processing Unit is my guess

800 shaders is not a good idea, to much die, too much cost, and too much heat.

The worst is the ratio TMU/shaders, is going worst.

480 SP with 32 TMU with low power is good.

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Originally Posted by AliG

why? No game out there will be coded for 800 shaders just for gfx, in fact this may be more useful to have some dedicated physx power


btw, whats PPU stand for?

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If the card is unbalanced with all those SPs then they're useless. Our beloved quads can perfectly do that task. For me a GPU is that, a GPU, Graphics Processing Unit. All the physics thing is pure marketing bs. Wow if you think about it 480+320 sounds so stupid it's not even funny. Maybe they should do a PPU with embedded graphics instead :rolleyes:

And games aren't coded for a specific tipe of shaders, what you're talking about is in the driver department.

PPU stands for Physics Processing Unit :yepp:

The dedicated PPU has been buried already, it would be a step backwards. If anything they'll just make their stream processors more versatile so it's easier to run physics on them.

I dunno dude, if ati feels that they can price the 4870 above $300 compared to the 3870 being nearly $150, I'd say they did something right, as they wouldn't price the 4870x2@$550 unless they feel firm it can compete with the gtx 280 either

I think the real shocker is the 4850.

Even at 30% less performance, it has the inner guts of the 4870 already, and when Crossfired, is rather... unspeakable. ;)

a PPU would be useless without a standardized API. would be cool if NVIDIA would allow AMD to use the one of Ageia, but I doubt it.

it's too early to integrate a PPU into the GPU imho. they don't know where this is heading, especially with powerfull multicore-processors

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Originally Posted by AliG

I dunno dude, if ati feels that they can price the 4870 above $300 compared to the 3870 being nearly $150, I'd say they did something right, as they wouldn't price the 4870x2@$550 unless they feel firm it can compete with the gtx 280 either

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ATI doesn’t know rats arse about Nvidia’s GTX200, so how the hell would they know how to rate price & performance right now? If Nvidia’s offering in June / July is somewhat near the rumoured capacity, ATI will be sucking lemon ice cubes for a long time unless the 4870X2 hits the shelves faster than a bat out of hell. Besides, both companies’ has grossly misinterpreted the market earlier so forget ATI’s (or for that sake Nvidia’s) feelings in such a matter.

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Originally Posted by FischOderAal

a PPU would be useless without a standardized API. would be cool if NVIDIA would allow AMD to use the one of Ageia, but I doubt it.

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http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/60220...-amd--ati.html

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Nvidia’s director of product PR for EMEA and India, Luciano Alibrandi, told Custom PC that ‘We are committed to an open PhysX platform that encourages innovation and participation,’ and added that Nvidia would be ‘open to talking with any GPU vendor about support for their architecture.’

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If the graphs and the prices are correct, I will get a 4850 instead becase it looks almost similar to a 9800 GTX and costs $230?

Sweetness if that is is true. And I can always grab a second later on.

AMD confirmed the name of RV770 and R700: Radeon HD 4800 family. It will have RV770PRO Radeon HD 4850, RV770XT Radeon HD 4870 and R700 Radeon HD 4870 X2. AMD will ship out RV770 GPU to AIB at the end of this month and the graphics card will launch in next month.

Radeon HD 4850 will be released on June 18th, 229$.

Radeon HD 4870 will be released on June 25th, for the GDDR5 supply problem, it will come into the market in July, at 349$.

Radeon HD 4870 X2 possible in September and the price will be 529-549$.

The clock of Radeon HD 4870 will be no more than 800MHz but there is no problem to overclock it to more than 1GHz

Again the fakes... :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Rob Halford

ATI doesn’t know rats arse about Nvidia’s GTX200.

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..though they know about 10 times more about it than any of us in Xtremesystems forums. :rofl:

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Originally Posted by Unbornchild

Again the fakes... :rolleyes:

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how? i haven't seen them posted, and they are chiphell.

They aren't from Chiphell actually. From some other Chinese website, unfortunately watermarked by CHH's system.

And Monkeywoman still has not learned (despite repeated requests) to put quote tags at front and end of text he/she quotes from other source than him/herself.

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Originally Posted by Calmatory

..though they know about 10 times more about it than any of us in Xtremesystems forums. :rofl:

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For ATi's sake I hope you are right but even if ATI know about 10 times more about it than the regular XS member it's still pretty close to nothing given the info prevailing amongst our regular members right now... :p:

ps. the members knowing more than the rest of us also seems to keep their lips sealed...

double post

@Monkeywoman

These shot is absolutely fake . HD4870 will support only GDDR5 and we're seeing the same processor used in the counterfeit tests of 3DMark 06 .

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Originally Posted by Monkeywoman

how? i haven't seen them posted, and they are chiphell.

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That's what happens when you don't read the thread :clap:

Patients, we will see in a couple of weeks.

I couldnt be bothered to wait until next month, and found these overclocked 3850's at just £72 each:

http://www.stuff-uk.net/?s=ST-CGAX-3852DDO

They are like the powercolour ones, but the ram has heatspreaders on them. I doubt they are going to get much cheaper then this.

I ordered a pair which came up to £154 plus delivery. I should be able to get £90-100 for my 3870 plus I got £50 for my birthday today XD

Another almost free upgrade, so I upgraded XD.

4850's will be around £120 each, so i'll just have these now :up:

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Originally Posted by bowman

http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/60220...-amd--ati.html

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ty :up:

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Originally Posted by GAR

Patients, we will see in a couple of weeks.

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Patients :p:

Erm, wow, epic thread on hexus right here about the 3850's I got, I just couldnt believe this:

http://forums.hexus.net/current-barg...s-72-45-a.html

o.O wow wow wow wow omg wow. I want to stay away from Nvidiots, please keep them away from me.

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Originally Posted by Monkeywoman

AMD confirmed the name of RV770 and R700: Radeon HD 4800 family. It will have RV770PRO Radeon HD 4850, RV770XT Radeon HD 4870 and R700 Radeon HD 4870 X2. AMD will ship out RV770 GPU to AIB at the end of this month and the graphics card will launch in next month.

Radeon HD 4850 will be released on June 18th, 229$.

Radeon HD 4870 will be released on June 25th, for the GDDR5 supply problem, it will come into the market in July, at 349$.

Radeon HD 4870 X2 possible in September and the price will be 529-549$.

The clock of Radeon HD 4870 will be no more than 800MHz but there is no problem to overclock it to more than 1GHz

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photochopped

the subscores should give around 16000 3dmarks not 19000 :shakes:

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Computex 2008 Radeon HD 4850, HD 4870 perform better than 8800GT and 9800GTX performance comparison
In mid June, AMD will launch another new series of graphics cards. These new series HD 4800 series will have more muscle to challenge the NVIDIA GeForce cards.

It is said that the HD 4850 is 20% faster than the 8800GT and HD 4870 is 20% faster than the 9800GTX.

As we all know, GeForce 9800GTX is only 10% faster than the 8800GT. We are able to get a clearer picture of the performance of these 4 cards as shown in the diagram below.

In 3DMARK06, Radeon HD 4870 will be 32% faster than 8800GT, 22% faster than 9800GTX and 12% faster than 4850.

AS for 4850, it will be 20% faster than 8800GT and 10% faster than the 9800GTX.



http://my.ocworkbench.com/bbs/attach...1&d=1211041890

http://my.ocworkbench.com/bbs/showth...1&goto=newpost

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regards

<---- Killed by impatience.

I'll just upgrade and sell again perhaps. I might be able to get more then what I paid for these 3850's second hand, or even just the same amount back.

Oh well, more stuffs to play with XD

Will they just run Crysis, its all people want to see..

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Originally Posted by y2kbos

Will they just run Crysis, its all people want to see..

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With games like Alan Wake, Far Cry 2, etc coming Crysis won't be looked at as the game that set the standard but, it will be viewed as the 1st game that tried. Compounded by many not liking it IMO makes it old hat. Also, it's not an engine found in up coming titles. Unless something was announced and I missed it, if so please link me. With Far Cry 2 (using a Dunia engine) doing the exact same graphical enhancements (even more IMO) it may be replaced if found to be more efficient.

:wave:'s crysis bye bye.

yumyum 4870
and a new nvidia offering.

so the 4850 to have 20&#37; more performance than 8800gt, can we expect that it will be 20% more price.:p:
9800gtx ($343 cheapest) costs 70% more than 8800gt ($198 cheapest) in aus. :ROTF:

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Originally Posted by Eastcoasthandle

With games like Alan Wake, Far Cry 2, etc coming Crysis won't be looked at as the game that set the standard but, it will be viewed as the 1st game that tried. Compounded by many not liking it IMO makes it old hat. Also, it's not an engine found in up coming titles. Unless something was announced and I missed it, if so please link me. With Far Cry 2 (using a Dunia engine) doing the exact same graphical enhancements (even more IMO) it may be replaced if found to be more efficient.

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Don't forget Stalker Clear Sky. It'll have more DX10 features as well.

If my 8800GTX can't run that.. Maybe I'll have to spring for a couple of these ATIs.

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Originally Posted by mascaras

http://my.ocworkbench.com/bbs/attach...1&d=1211041890

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That is not FPS, its performance increase over 8800Gt as the base card.

Idiots at OCW could've just as easily told us what the actual 3dMark 06 would be.

For example, if that chart is to be believed, if the 8800GT scores 11.5k with an Intel Quad, then:

The 9800GTX would score 12.7k
The 4850 would score 13.8k
The 4870 would score 15.2k

That may be a tad unrealistic. (for a $225 card to beat the 9800GTX. I mean, even if the 4870 loses to the GT200, if the 4850 can wrestle out the 9800 that would still be a crowing achievement, which ATi isn't known for).

Perkam

Come on, no more 3DMark crap to test new cards...

hmm, im assuming they left out the vantage results because they were unfavorable lol?

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Originally Posted by grimREEFER

hmm, im assuming they left out the vantage results because they were unfavorable lol?

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What is that based from?

If the 800SP rumour is true, even in a bad case of shader usage this would be essentially stomp over the G80.

Well, the 480/800 debate continues... :D


Even if the 4800s have 480SPs, I don't think 3DMark will really show the real improvement. Vantage *should*, considering the poor thing's so jacked up by fillrate on ATI cards it's not funny. Real games with AA and AF- definitely, perhaps the 4870 even beating the G92s in AA due to bandwidth concerns (when the sample rates were the same, aka 8x AA, 3870 = or > 8800GT)

once again guys, for the n millionth time, its been discussed constantly and decided its the af that kills the radeon 2k and 3k cards, not the aa, 320 shaders is more than enough, where as 16 TMUs flat out equaled fail:shakes:


The extra bandwidth wouldn't do squat for them if they put gddr5 on even the 3870x2, its the architecture changes and extra shaders that will make use of the bandwidth and will have the biggest impact

Actually, it does. Even without AF, at 4x AA the Radeons don't look that good. At 8x they're back to even.

2x can be done on one pass in both cards, 4x needs 2 for the Radeons and 1 for the G80s, 8 is 2 for both. Which is quite funny as the Radeons don't scale.


AF is another matter, but the ratio of these 2 are overblown on 2 seperate extremes when in fact, it's not.

can't wait till june/july. I'm going to invest in a 3870X2 right now... I need to get my PC built before XP is killed and don't have time to twiddle my thumbs really.

Can't wait to see what these new cards will debut at price wise and performance wise. The top dog cards have always been $420-$5xx from what I have seen so it will be interesting to see the prices

I wanna try Dual 4870X2 <3

What is it with people thinking that 3DMark is some GPU test nowadays? 3DMark06 WAS a GPU test when there was no C2D and people used single core A64's with 6800's and X800's. Now go think why Vantage is more GPU dependet than 3DMark99MAX or 2001. :rolleyes:

Using YEARS old 3DMark to show GPU performance is just like showing how SuperPI time improves once you voldmod your GPU and cool it with LN2. :|

and oh boy, RV770 is NOT to compete with GT200. Thats definite NO GO. R700 is going to compete. NOT RV770. Thanks.

/boring rant

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RV770 is NOT to compete with GT200

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simply because it wont, and RV770 should find a nice price niche between 8800gts and gt200 :/ thus leaving current 3xxx cards much as they are price wise. i suppose.

maybe nvidia brings out a crippled variant of gt200 (gt280/260 whatever it is) to compete directly in same price segment as rv770 variants.
anything can happen with prices. cant even speculate without real numbers.

thing is, I don't think nvidia will release anything below a 9900gts or gtx 260, whatever you want to call it, using the gt200 die because it will simply be too expensive to make, most likely they'll with g92b for performance, and gt200 for high end, nothing in between

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Originally Posted by adamsleath

simply because it wont, and RV770 should find a nice price niche between 8800gts and gt200 :/ thus leaving current 3xxx cards much as they are price wise. i suppose.

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It was always this way though. People act shocked despite the fact that RV770 was meant for the value section, while R700 is for performance, which directly targets GT200

well by the gfx market, the rv770 is actually performance while the rv740 will be mainstream (honestly I'm very interested in seeing how that turns out, I'm surprised no one really seems to care, as far as I remember nobody did a decent review on the 2900gt and the 4670 will have something like 24 TMUs compared to the r600's 16) and r700 high end

I am hoping the performance of the 4850 is better than the 9800gtx because its a new generation(3800 and g92 were not) and should eclipse the old generation by some decent margin. Also because a gts basically offers the performance of a 9800 gtx and cost 200 dollars with a lifetime warranty(voltmodders need not apply), cheaper than the 4850 with its current price.

I want ATI to create a one chip, highend. A two chip, single die card is not the most sustainable, nor elegent way to create a highend because its just crossfire or sli on a single card. This to me is not true singlecard performance.

Half the fun of seeing records broken is because its not on cloned hardware.(although there only 2 or three different systems of it being made on). When I see a 9800gtx getting beat by a 3870 x2, I don't seeing a legitamate beating. If this were sports, it would be a two on one person advantage. Its also not a true reflection of gaming performance because the game still has to support sli or crossfire for the performance to be seen.

ATI is making the 3d competition, a competition of clones and this is going to kill alot of the excitement of watching people break records. The 4870 only going to be beating old records set by old g92 and other 4870s. Wheres the excitement in that.

Remember people this is xtremesystems not give me value like the latest budget website like slickdeals or fatwallet.

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Originally Posted by tajoh111

I want ATI to create a one chip, highend. A two chip, single die card is not the most sustainable, nor elegent way to create a highend because its just crossfire or sli on a single card. This to me is not true singlecard performance.

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Well, therein lies the big question - is R700 just CF on the board or is it different? Rumors have been suggesting its more than just CF on the board and hasn't been done before. If true, that could be huge, and hopefully thats what it is

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Well, therein lies the big question - is R700 just CF on the board or is it different? Rumors have been suggesting its more than just CF on the board and hasn't been done before. If true, that could be huge, and hopefully thats what it is

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I'm hoping for MCM. Look at the Q6600.

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Originally Posted by tajoh111

Remember people this is xtremesystems not give me value like the latest budget website like slickdeals or fatwallet.

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What about Extreme Value HD4870 for 149.99us dollars.:shocked:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thenrz

I'm hoping for MCM. Look at the Q6600.

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MCM design would make no sense. You would go with a smaller combined size then with no issues, extra costs and performance penalties. CF/SLI on a board/card is due to lack of performance and heat. Just look on history with all the previous dual GPU boards when they came.

they better do 1GB mem per gpu this time around

512MB: total joke @ high rez

i aint buying no freakn 512MB/gpu no more!!

Quote:

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MCM design would make no sense. You would go with a smaller combined size then with no issues, extra costs and performance penalties. CF/SLI on a board/card is due to lack of performance and heat. Just look on history with all the previous dual GPU boards when they came.

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OK, I see what you're saying. here's my 2c.

Dual GPU cards with a CF/SLi chip between two GPUs is no better (OK...maybe a little, but for the sake of argument) than two cards in two different PCIe slots. That needs to go. Using a dual core GPU (MCM was used loosely, all I mean is the idea of two cores in one package.) seems like the way to go...natively shared memory pools, the lack of the CF/SLi chip taking up space, much more easily designed cooling solutions, etc.

Could you expand on what you're trying to say, Shintai? I'm confused and I'd like to understand exactly what you mean.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thenrz

OK, I see what you're saying. here's my 2c.

Dual GPU cards with a CF/SLi chip between two GPUs is no better (OK...maybe a little, but for the sake of argument) than two cards in two different PCIe slots. That needs to go. Using a dual core GPU (MCM was used loosely, all I mean is the idea of two cores in one package.) seems like the way to go...natively shared memory pools, the lack of the CF/SLi chip taking up space, much more easily designed cooling solutions, etc.

Could you expand on what you're trying to say, Shintai? I'm confused and I'd like to understand exactly what you mean.

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The design of a GPU means a MCM approach is stupid. GPUs are parallel in nature unlike CPUs. Very rough CF/SLi is the equal of a load balanced cluster for CPUs. It sucks and thats why scaling sucks usually plus latency issues.

And since GPUs dont really do well with memory mangement. A shared memory pool would be multitudes more expensive aswell.

So in short. MCM design (IF we exclude the shared memory issue)= more advanced, more transistors/die used on memory controllers, interconnection, performance scaling etc. Plus you need an interconnection that doesnt exist, not even close. Think 10-20x performance of HT3.0

In short, much more expensive nomatter what you pick.

MCM is not easier to cool. Its harder. Try cool 200-250W from a single package instead of 2.

People have a huge misunderstanding trying to think CPUs when talking/wishing about GPUs.

So this is why when performance is a dire issue. We get (G)X2 cards with 2 GPUs, 2x memory and soforth and we will in the future aswell. Nothing is changed.

And it will not improve yield either. Simply because the 2 smaller dies will have alot more critical logic that cant have defects.

This have been some runaway rumour from the start and it keep being so. People also said R680 would be MCM/dualcore whatever.

It is possible to do, but the economics makes it impossible like with so many other things.

how will rv740 compare to 3xxx series?

And how will RV730 compare to HD3k series? No one knows yet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by adamsleath

how will rv740 compare to 3xxx series?

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my bet is 4670 will be at the performanc level of the 3850, or worst case 3830, a lot of the bottlenecks are improved upon to reduce/eliminate them which will unlock some of the performance of the 240 shaders, not to mention they'll have higher shader clocks than the 320 of the 3850

I would be very surprised if the 4670 beats the 3850. It's not going to have more TMU's and it will have a shader deficit. Best chance is probably with AA enabled if there have been improvements there.

edit: I guess though it probably has 2 shader groups of 120 and the rv770 has 4 and so 16 and 32 work. In which case it'll still be a very good performer considering the amount of shaders, and it will still probably be at the level of the 3830

let me double check that, because if does, that'll make a big difference

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trinibwoy

I would be very surprised if the 4670 beats the 3850. It's not going to have more TMU's and it will have a shader deficit. Best chance is probably with AA enabled if there have been improvements there.

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Z fillrate.

source

Quote:

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Default
RV770 ES clock: 625MHz
Board no.: 102-B50102-00
Revision: A12

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source

Quote:

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Yeah, in my wet dreams

BTW: It uses 1GHz GDDR3 from Qimonda

Quote:

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HYB18H512321BF-10 512Mb, 16Mx32, 1.0GHz, 2.0V PG-TFBGA-136

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This person states that the information is from AMD and this ES is not at full clock.

Time will tell what is true...

Also, no one seems to know about the SP count yet. It maybe either
480SPx1050MHz = 1 TFLOP
OR
800SPx625MHz = 1 TFLOP

If the 1 TFLOP is true.

In other news some are stating that "someone" over at folding forum indicated 480SP but the post was pulled from the thread. This is all rumors as far as I am concerned.

lowered core clk may be due to huge increase in transistor density(count) .

Other interesting thing is the W1z post http://forums.techpowerup.com/showpo...9&postcount=36 :shrug:.

umm, both posts are kinda old news, the one from folding forum is quoted from techreport and w1zzard posted that up a while ago. As for w0mbat, I wouldn't trust him if I were you, but that's just my personal choice

VR-Zone: RV770 Preliminary Performance Revealed:
http://www.vr-zone.com/articles/RV77...aled/5782.html

Quote:

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The design of a GPU means a MCM approach is stupid. GPUs are parallel in nature unlike CPUs. Very rough CF/SLi is the equal of a load balanced cluster for CPUs. It sucks and thats why scaling sucks usually plus latency issues.

And since GPUs dont really do well with memory mangement. A shared memory pool would be multitudes more expensive aswell.

So in short. MCM design (IF we exclude the shared memory issue)= more advanced, more transistors/die used on memory controllers, interconnection, performance scaling etc. Plus you need an interconnection that doesnt exist, not even close. Think 10-20x performance of HT3.0

In short, much more expensive nomatter what you pick.

MCM is not easier to cool. Its harder. Try cool 200-250W from a single package instead of 2.

People have a huge misunderstanding trying to think CPUs when talking/wishing about GPUs.

So this is why when performance is a dire issue. We get (G)X2 cards with 2 GPUs, 2x memory and soforth and we will in the future aswell. Nothing is changed.

And it will not improve yield either. Simply because the 2 smaller dies will have alot more critical logic that cant have defects.

This have been some runaway rumour from the start and it keep being so. People also said R680 would be MCM/dualcore whatever.

It is possible to do, but the economics makes it impossible like with so many other things.

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Dang man, well played. Makes perfect sense. The point about the cooling was sharp.

There are certain people on both forums you probably shouldn't listen to...

The blower's picture on fudzilla is a fake, AMD's logo don't have the same res with the blower.

That's not good work from them ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by madcho

The blower's picture on fudzilla is a fake, AMD's logo don't have the same res with the blower.

That's not good work from them ...

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No, its not fake. Its real, but the guys @AMD changed the old ATI Radeon logo w/ the new one which came out few days ago and they did that change w/ PS, so apart from that its just a real RV770 cooler picture.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by w0mbat

No, its not fake. Its real, but the guys @AMD changed the old ATI Radeon logo w/ the new one which came out few days ago and they did that change w/ PS, so apart from that its just a real RV770 cooler picture.

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:yepp:
http://www.hardware-aktuell.com/smal..._Vergleich.jpg

Olly Olly, I'm confused now.
Planning to buy a 350$ high end card before the end of july and 350$ is my max
i'm sick of buying a mid-range card every year.:shakes:

anyone knows about the start prices for the new cards (both ATI & NVIDIA)

Then don't buy a midrange card every year, this year was a big exception with the performance outperforming the high end, and only happened due to a lack of a high end referesh until late in the game. Just get a 4870 and be happy with it or don't upgrade this year. There's not much else to do except get a consol which seems to be the way to go because of pc gaming having like no good exclusives anymore

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ihatbs

Olly Olly, I'm confused now.
Planning to buy a 350$ high end card before the end of july and 350$ is my max
i'm sick of buying a mid-range card every year.:shakes:

anyone knows about the start prices for the new cards (both ATI & NVIDIA)

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in that price range, your only option will be HD4870 'cos GeForce with new GPU's will be something like 399 and 499 USD if not more!